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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




You're under the assumption I wouldn't light a match under the dumpster fire poo-land is in a second? England is much funnier tho cause it's 100% self-inflicted, like someone trying to do a pizza cutter circumcision.

It's always so weird when people try to defend whatever leopard is eating their face by pointing at my country like...I know? It's a failed state, it's been since 1600s you dingus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:12:41


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Explain, really why, GW has put it so I cannot recieve communication about when Stormboyz, Trukks, Killa Kans, Kustom Boosta Blastas, MegaTrakk Scrapjets, Deffkilla Wartrikes, or the Mekboy Workshop come back in stock?


for the very simple reason that you don't save your money for something that is availbale again in 2 weeks but spend it on something else now because you don't know if the other stuff ever comes back (and than buy the things you wanted in 2 weeks anyway)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 GoldenHorde wrote:

Wonder why poland and ukraine have severe shortages? EU.
But who cares about them, right? (not you)

Ukraine is not in the EU and we have no empty supermarkets in Poland

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:08:54


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Not sure of the point you're trying to make as the article you've posted specifically states that Brexit is contributing to the UKs supply chain issues.


You couldn't read any of the data about EU shortages?



Couldn't see the inequitable vacuum job done on poland and ukraine?

Selective reading matey!

Its simple, you need to train new drivers as the driver shortage is not directly related to brexit (which is why the EU has a shortage of drivers)

Damn UK couldn't hoover up and vacuum eastern european drivers....training locals is the worst national outcome evar!!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:12:31


Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Also fun fact despite driver shortages, all my online orders get delivered on time, and all the supermarkets nearby have groceries on the shelves. Something Britain has been struggling with recently apparently. Maybe they should train those drivers faster?

Couldn't see the inequitable vacuum job done on poland and ukraine?

Oh no, polish citizens get paid in western money and literally drive that money back home to put back into polish economy, why would I begrudge them their better earnings?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:16:10


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 kodos wrote:

Well with 200 you don't even get the cheapest 40k army without rules

Starting 40k now would be already way over your price point were a printer is on the edge and would be already worth it for a single army

£85 on a Combat Patrol and roughly £25 on a Codex and I can start playing 40k. There seems to be this persisting requirement for a 2k army to be able to play 40k when that hasn't been the case ever in my experience. Local Beginners group was 2 Troops, an HQ, and a Something Else, most of my games from 5th to 7th were 1-1.5k points, it was only when the group started playing 30k that we regularly started doing 2-2.5k games so people could use Primarchs all the time. For 8th it was about 50-ish power unless it was just me and a friend then we'd do 100 power.

Also, the irony of an Australian telling European's they don't know anything about current European economic and political issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:28:15


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 kodos wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 kodos wrote:

Cronch wrote:
What is affordable. To me, $200 is the max that I would count as affordable, anything over that is "serious" purchase I need a real incentive to spend. As someone who does not collect multiple 2k armies, I really don't have one.

Well with 200 you don't even get the cheapest 40k army without rules

Starting 40k now would be already way over your price point were a printer is on the edge and would be already worth it for a single army


Yeah, but you don't buy your whole army in 1 spend normally, you can space it out over time and is significantly easier to consume. Just because it's cheaper long run on paper, it doesn't mean it's the obvious choice for everyone.


what long run?
buying stuff until you are able to play is not the long run
it does not matter if you buy it in one go or over 1 year for the initial investment to play

specially if there is the chance to enter a new Edition before you were able to play at all if you just take you time to buy in small steps


Say I budget £30 a month on hobby stuff, in 11 months I can buy a printer, curing chamber, resin and stls (because the printer isn't the only cost). Or I could have £330 of a GW product already built, painted and ready to go.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Gert wrote:


Also, the irony of an Australian telling European's they don't know anything about current European economic and political issues.


The irony of losing a democratic vote and being hysterical, salty and irrational about it years later

Facts don't care about your feelings, The data is there. EU also has a shortage despite it's labour market mobility.
If you had a rebuttal you'd post it.

Damn looks like EU runs low on cheaper eastern europeans to exploit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:43:14


Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

back in 5th, the standard game size here was 1000-1500 points as well, hard to compare it to 9th were everyone is playing 2k and outside of dedicated beginner groups/events it is impossible to even play 1500 points, not talking about 500 points

so if I would start 40k here and now, a 3D printer is the cheaper option, even for the initial buy in


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

https://www.euronews.com/2020/05/01/inside-europe-s-secret-truck-war-drivers-pay-the-price-for-east-west-divide


Drivers from eastern Europe generally take home a lot less than those from western Europe - for instance, a Bulgarian driver could earn around €300 euros per month, while an Italian might take home €1,500 per month.

Employers take advantage of Europe's east-west wage divide in order to boost profit margins. It’s a practice known as social dumping, which has led to job losses in western Europe and worker exploitation in eastern Europe.


SPICY ASF EU EXPLOITATION

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:46:14


Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

yes?

this is a problem for years now, nothing that came up last month

and there are still no emtpy shelfs in Europe dispite that there is a shortage and social dumping for years now

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Lots of drivers left UK due to law changes not related to brexit which affected agency workers (read: social dumping agencies)

Looks like the industry will start having to pay equitable wages. Violins incoming

Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 kodos wrote:
back in 5th, the standard game size here was 1000-1500 points as well, hard to compare it to 9th were everyone is playing 2k and outside of dedicated beginner groups/events it is impossible to even play 1500 points, not talking about 500 points

so if I would start 40k here and now, a 3D printer is the cheaper option, even for the initial buy in

I don't have any data to refute your argument and I also doubt you have any data to back it up. So the best we have is what? YouTube BatReps? People saying they played X game at 2k points on the Internet? We could say that those who post on Forums maybe only play 2k games but that can't and shouldn't be applied to the entirety of the hobby because it's not representative of the wider hobby base.
It doesn't matter because you're still not starting 40k with a 2k army, which means your buy-in cost 9/10 times will absolutely be under £200.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

I have only the local scene, it does not help if everyone outside is doing it differently if the local scene is doing it that way
and those that are open to other point levels are also open to other games so no need to play 40k with them

same as the local scene prefers Kings of War with 1500 points, does not matter that 2300 points is the tournament standard, most games here will be 1500.

 GoldenHorde wrote:
Lots of drivers left UK due to law changes not related to brexit which affected agency workers (read: social dumping agencies)

Looks like the industry will start having to pay equitable wages. Violins incoming


what law changes that were not related to Brexit?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:57:34


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kodos wrote:
back in 5th, the standard game size here was 1000-1500 points as well, hard to compare it to 9th were everyone is playing 2k and outside of dedicated beginner groups/events it is impossible to even play 1500 points, not talking about 500 points

so if I would start 40k here and now, a 3D printer is the cheaper option, even for the initial buy in



Coming from a university city I can tell you that a very large number of our gamers would not be able to afford the initial outlay on a 3d printer but can afford a unit or two a month without too much of a problem. They definitely wouldn't have anywhere to print even if they could afford a printer. As a fairly comfortable middle-class gamer I can also tell you that there are a lot of other costs in my life right now that makes justifying the outlay on a 3d printer very difficult even though I could go and order one right now if I felt like it. That's not taking into account the time needed to set it up or the space needed to have one continuously running away from small children, significant others etc.

The biggest thing that needs to happen with 3d printing to make it more accessible at home is to somehow reduce or remove the space/ventilation requirements so it literally is just like using a regular paper printer. I think until that happens the best way for 3d printing to prosper for gamers is with the expansion of the current business model of print-on-demand.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 kodos wrote:
I have only the local scene, it does not help if everyone outside is doing it differently if the local scene is doing it that way
and those that are open to other point levels are also open to other games so no need to play 40k with them

same as the local scene prefers Kings of War with 1500 points, does not matter that 2300 points is the tournament standard, most games here will be 1500.

 GoldenHorde wrote:
Lots of drivers left UK due to law changes not related to brexit which affected agency workers (read: social dumping agencies)

Looks like the industry will start having to pay equitable wages. Violins incoming


what law changes that were not related to Brexit?


IR35 reform

Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 kodos wrote:
I have only the local scene, it does not help if everyone outside is doing it differently if the local scene is doing it that way
and those that are open to other point levels are also open to other games so no need to play 40k with them

same as the local scene prefers Kings of War with 1500 points, does not matter that 2300 points is the tournament standard, most games here will be 1500.

So again, not everyone, just your local players.
You've taken your specific situation and applied it to the whole hobby without actually saying "this is my local scene".
For you, someone who is established in the hobby with a specific local scene of 2k point games only it may well be cheaper and better for you in the long and short term. But that's not a universal experience and its certainly not a beginner-friendly one.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Ive said it before and I'll say it again, but i dont think 3d printing will ever became the main way to get minis. Its rather complicated and slow.

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 streetsamurai wrote:
Ive said it before and I'll say it again, but i dont think 3d printing will ever became the main way to get minis. Its rather complicated and slow.


Agreed. I think there is a tendency amongst 3D printing enthusiasts to assume that everyone would be sold on it if they would only give it a try, but a lot of folks out there either know up front they won’t be into it, or try it and give up on it, and these voices aren’t often heard from so it becomes a bit of an echo chamber.

Mass produced plastic kits aren’t going anywhere, GWs pricing policing may get them into shtuck (and hopefully it does as they are becoming insane) but there will always be a market for off the shelf boxes of dudes.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I mean, for me it's a hobby, and a well worth one at that. But it's kind of the same as the guy that has a laser engraver at home, at least for now.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'm 100% sold on 3D printing as a means toward owning more "arty" models and big models of things that I'd like to own but would cost £2-300 each on average if resin cast.

In fact I think it will do a LOT for the more arty side of the hobby, ergo the pure "let me get something to paint for the shelf" side. Things like busts and 75mm models become a lot less expensive and intimidating when you can just "print another" if you muck up the painting. And furthermore they become something more easily sold by a designer when they are price competing in the £5-20-30 region instead of in the low hundreds per model.

Sure resin cast models will still have a place and most 3D print shops, at least in the UK, are not vastly off what it would cost to get a cast model over a 3D printed. That said I think it opens the market up a lot more for those kind of things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 14:13:44


A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Overread wrote:
I'm 100% sold on 3D printing as a means toward owning more "arty" models and big models of things that I'd like to own but would cost £2-300 each on average if resin cast.

In fact I think it will do a LOT for the more arty side of the hobby, ergo the pure "let me get something to paint for the shelf" side. Things like busts and 75mm models become a lot less expensive and intimidating when you can just "print another" if you muck up the painting. And furthermore they become something more easily sold by a designer when they are price competing in the £5-20-30 region instead of in the low hundreds per model.

Sure resin cast models will still have a place and most 3D print shops, at least in the UK, are not vastly off what it would cost to get a cast model over a 3D printed. That said I think it opens the market up a lot more for those kind of things.


I've been wondering if this is a UK issue as well tbh, I can't seem to find these super cheap 3d printed bits and alternates people find. Etsy and shape ways etc usually come out about the same if not more once you factor in extortionate postage.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think some of the super-cheap are people running stores who are doing it as a hobby and aren't actually paying attention to their finances - so chances are they are losing money to print, but feel like they are earning. OF course such stores tend to rank low so aren't often seen.

Another is people printing locally for friends, again at cost or at such low margins that its not really earning anything.


the other low cost is doing it yourself at home and that really only comes into play once you've paid out the initial outlay.



Again yes 3D printing has some great advantages, but its not the wonderous be-all and end-all right now that people sometimes argue. That said the industry is moving fast with development and things are changing all the time. So there's a lot of scope for growth and its already at a pretty high spot right now.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
angel of death 007 wrote:
Instead of hiring people to enforce this or that the easiest way would be simply to lower prices. The reason why there is such a demand for alternative models or china/ russian knock offs is because GW prices are rediculous.


Given how their profits are record high, it seems that's not exactly impacting them.


Last time they showed their customers their hubris, GW was doing fantastic until suddenly they weren’t.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Cronch wrote:
The kind that doesn't have print lines and same quality as cast miniatures? Cause I saw those for ~1500pln last I checked, the cheap ones were basically good for printing a polymer soap box.


When did you last check? 2012?

Last year? We come down to the same issue- I don't want 3d printing as a hobby. I don't care about the details of 3d printing. I can go buy an ink printer right now, and even the jankiest, cheapest trash will print just fine, it might break in a year, but it will generally work. To buy a 3d printer you need to check all the details, you need to know what details to check in the first place. To buy a good 3d printer you either need to know someone with one already or be into 3d printers
Currently, the affordable resin printers produce minis that can pass for resin casts once primed.
What is affordable. To me, $200 is the max that I would count as affordable, anything over that is "serious" purchase I need a real incentive to spend. As someone who does not collect multiple 2k armies, I really don't have one.


Pretty sure they get under $200 during their frequent sales. If they aren’t starting that low now. Ask Highlord Tamburlaine about his.

Mine was a gift* and a filament printer, but worked well for tanks, ships and terrain. If it weren’t a gift, I’d be more invested in making it run again.

* “Merry Christmas. Now you don’t ever need to buy models again.”
Hashtag stillbuyingmodels

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 16:20:17


   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

Yeah, some people are adverse to printing models about as much as I am adverse to painting models.

There will still be a large segment of the population that will prefer just to drop money on a box of models they can pick up in 5 minutes.

But I do foresee in the near future a revolution similar to what has occurred in the music industry and book industry where 3D printing overtakes conventional output methods and companies like GW go through a shrinking/restructuring phase.

It will be interesting to see how GW rails against the change and whether they survive it or go the way of Radio Shack, Sears, and Kodak.

It never ends well 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Teesside

I'm not convinced the revolution will happen any time soon without some new technology.

I have a bit of cash, and a dedicated craft room in the house, but I won't be buying a resin printer unless I can solve the toxic fumes issue. Even then, ya know, I look at it and I look at my heaps of unpainted minis and I'm not convinced I need a new miniatures-related hobby that takes up time and space and results in a bigger heap of unpainted minis.

Again, as ever, just one anecdote, but I know a fair few people in a similar boat, and a fair few with 3D printers already, and a fair few who don't have the time/space/money/technical skills to really be considering it at all.

My painting & modelling blog: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/699224.page

Serpent King Games: Dragon Warriors Reborn!
http://serpentking.com/

 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

As I mentioned earlier, I think the real competition will come from other HIPS manufacturers providing affordable alternatives with close enough aesthetics. 3D printing is a great supplement to that, for characters, terrain, and minis that don’t exist in HIPS or affordable cast resin.

I also see printed miniatures possibly leading to more HIPS sales the same way recast minis sometimes led to more troops sales: providing an accessible showstopper centerpiece mini motivating customers to build an army around it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 18:54:58


   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

A bit thing for GW has been plastics, most other firms in the past just couldn't afford to buy into the machines and overseas production in China has a whole rafter of issues that can destroy firms because of quality control problems; shipping delays; lack of ability to react to market shifts quickly etc....

There's this new plastic tech that Creature Caster and Infinity are working with that looks like it could be a huge game changer. Silicon moulds, cheaper machines, fast plastic casting. Sure its not injection moulding fast, but it could certainly bridge the expansion gap many firms experience when they need a faster output than resin/metal can give and yet can't afford the full jump into overseas plastics.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Isn't Prodos already using a different kind of plastic casting?

And I agree, GW is not in the position any more that they can screw up but still being the only one on the market
Plastic Models in good quality for SciFi are not unique to GW any more

and some games already grow momentum to take the place

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 20:06:29


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Cronch wrote:
Well with 200 you don't even get the cheapest 40k army without rules
Sure, but I can buy 1 unit per month or hell, one unit every half a year and still have a 1k army eventually
You could also put the money (that buys one unit per month) aside until you can buy a 3D printer. Even one that costs a bit more than 200€, if you really wanted. If you can buy a 500€ army over a few months then you can also save 500€ over the same few months and spend it once you have saved up enough. The difference is only when you spend it. Neither is some insurmountable problem if you are already willing to spend 500€ on the hobby over a certain time frame.

In that case the choice is about what you want to spend that money on, not if you can or can't spend it. That is, if you are interested in buying a 3D printer, resin, and whatever else one needs.

   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





Cronch wrote:
What is affordable. To me, $200 is the max that I would count as affordable, anything over that is "serious" purchase I need a real incentive to spend. As someone who does not collect multiple 2k armies, I really don't have one.

Mine (Anycubic Photon, basic model) costed $170 (€140) last January. Last time I checked, price dropped to $140. With $200 you can get a printer, some resin and some materials (IPA to clean, ...).
At max resolution you can print models with no visible print lines, at 1/40th of a mm (0.25 um). It's a bit slower than mono printers but it still prints way faster than I can paint.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 20:16:22



 
   
 
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