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I was a little disappointed when Orc Boss did cliche evil guy stuff when the humans showed up to serve him. I wish he had thwarted expectations and actually just accepted them.

I don't think he killed them all, maybe just the one dude to sacrifice/prove the loyalty of old guy. You'd think we would have seen a little more explicit carnage if they had just killed them all.

Plus, another minor detail that they have glossed over. Sauron explicitly forbids the use of his name by his servants. You're not allowed to call him Sauron. That is a name given by the Elves/Valar which means "The Abhorred". In Sindarin he is called Gorthaur, which means Abominable or Abhorrent.

These are all names that darkly mirror his first name, Mairon. Which means Admirable or Excellent. And he was said to have been obsessed with order and perfection in his time as a servant of Aule. The names he has been given by the Free Peoples are not just names to describe his evil. They are deliberate and explicit slander and rebuke of his "real" name. A bit like a clean freak named Squeeky McClean being called Dirty McDirtface Stinkbutt.

Calling his Sauron is pretty much a personal attack on his character, so he should be taking grave insult to anyone who calls him by it. This is why his servants in the LOTR books only ever call him the Dark Lord or some variation.

Has it been confirmed that the guy in question is the Dark Lord, and not just some high ranking follower of Sauron.

My personal belief so far is that Adar is a failed orc conversion - whilst his mind was twisted, the physical transformation was left incomplete and my guess is there's some crazy disfigurement under the bits of armor that he doesn't remove (on his left arm) and perhaps feels kinship to the orcs under his command because of this (hence his rather emotional response to the dying orcs)

This makes sense to me considering the show only has the rights to the Appendices and things referenced in LOTR proper, and this would be a direct reference to Saruman's line about the origins of orcs (despite Tolkien walking that back later)

A cast member that plays one of the 3 creepy folks(Eminems's crew) inspecting the meteor man's crater noted that their character comes from Rhun. Not sure if that reveals any clues on their identity.

 nels1031 wrote:
A cast member that plays one of the 3 creepy folks(Eminems's crew) inspecting the meteor man's crater noted that their character comes from Rhun. Not sure if that reveals any clues on their identity.

other than being from the East and having traveled fary to get to the comet's destination, not much

This whole show just chugs its wheels towards foregone conclusions or endless mystery boxes (are we sure this isn't a JJ Abrams production?).

Will Mystery Guy #1 go back with Galadriel? Of course he will. Will Isildur end up as part of the fleet? Of course he will. Will Mystery Guy 2 do something to scare Norri away? Of course he will.



It reminds me of the concept of "distracted viewing", something soap operas are built upon, where you'll have 4-5 different scenes per episode that are played out in a few different ways between each act break, the idea being that the person watching the show is often doing something else (the premise was based on a house-wife doing chores whilst half-watching the show), so you didn't need to see every bit as each time we go back to the characters, they're really just repeating what they did the first time around in a different way, with some changes here and there.

Here I get the same thing. We know what's going to happen from the outset, but they do so much pointless faffing about and melodrama that it just drags everything to a crawl.

 judgedoug wrote:
My personal belief so far is that Adar is a failed orc conversion - whilst his mind was twisted, the physical transformation was left incomplete and my guess is there's some crazy disfigurement under the bits of armor that he doesn't remove (on his left arm) and perhaps feels kinship to the orcs under his command because of this (hence his rather emotional response to the dying orcs)

This makes sense to me considering the show only has the rights to the Appendices and things referenced in LOTR proper, and this would be a direct reference to Saruman's line about the origins of orcs (despite Tolkien walking that back later)

I don't think so. I think he is one of the original Elves who were taken by Morgoth, or at least early in the lineage, whose descendants became Orcs. Not a failed conversion, just a step on the path.

The elves taken originally wouldn't necessarily have transformed into orcs directly, rather I think it would have been a generational thing. Otherwise, the numerous Elves who were taken prisoner by Morgoth over the years would surely have all become Orcs. So him just looking like a beat-up scarred Elf would make sense. It would also make sense why they call him Father, because he is both literally and figuratively a grandsire.

This is the part I like, and I think the show would have been better off to focus more on something like this. Just do an entire show in the East with stuff like this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This whole show just chugs its wheels towards foregone conclusions or endless mystery boxes (are we sure this isn't a JJ Abrams production?).

Will Mystery Guy #1 go back with Galadriel? Of course he will. Will Isildur end up as part of the fleet? Of course he will. Will Mystery Guy 2 do something to scare Norri away? Of course he will.

The curse of doing the past of characters we know already. Still, it's the journey, not the destination that matters, but Isildur's standing in the eyes of his father was a bit quick - I'd have preferred it if that had been more of a journey, that he spend some more time earning it over a few episodes. I'm more interested in Earien and Kemen. I'm willing to think there's a growing anti-elf cult that's willing to resort to violence in the city (and that Sauron's there already - stirring things up).

It reminds me of the concept of "distracted viewing", something soap operas are built upon, where you'll have 4-5 different scenes per episode that are played out in a few different ways between each act break, the idea being that the person watching the show is often doing something else (the premise was based on a house-wife doing chores whilst half-watching the show), so you didn't need to see every bit as each time we go back to the characters, they're really just repeating what they did the first time around in a different way, with some changes here and there.

Here I get the same thing. We know what's going to happen from the outset, but they do so much pointless faffing about and melodrama that it just drags everything to a crawl.

Interesting. I'll have to watch out for that the next time I'm unlucky enough to watch a soap.

The Stranger - I'm torn between him being Olorin, as a kind of proto-Gandalf, with his time here being where he picks up his affection for the hobbits, or, yes, he is Sauron. The Silmarillion mentions that Sauron was genuinely remorseful once captured after the destruction of Angband, so his time here with the Harfoots is maybe his 'community service' to prove his good intentions, with the white robed cultists being Morgothites (or even Balrogs in human form) looking for a new leader.

 Gitzbitah wrote:

Spoiler:

Please note our source of this 'mithril ' myth is Thranduil-

do you mean Gil-Galad

 judgedoug wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:

Spoiler:

Please note our source of this 'mithril ' myth is Thranduil-

do you mean Gil-Galad

Woops. Yes, yes I do.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
My personal belief so far is that Adar is a failed orc conversion - whilst his mind was twisted, the physical transformation was left incomplete and my guess is there's some crazy disfigurement under the bits of armor that he doesn't remove (on his left arm) and perhaps feels kinship to the orcs under his command because of this (hence his rather emotional response to the dying orcs)

This makes sense to me considering the show only has the rights to the Appendices and things referenced in LOTR proper, and this would be a direct reference to Saruman's line about the origins of orcs (despite Tolkien walking that back later)

I don't think so. I think he is one of the original Elves who were taken by Morgoth, or at least early in the lineage, whose descendants became Orcs. Not a failed conversion, just a step on the path.

The elves taken originally wouldn't necessarily have transformed into orcs directly, rather I think it would have been a generational thing. Otherwise, the numerous Elves who were taken prisoner by Morgoth over the years would surely have all become Orcs. So him just looking like a beat-up scarred Elf would make sense. It would also make sense why they call him Father, because he is both literally and figuratively a grandsire.

This is the part I like, and I think the show would have been better off to focus more on something like this. Just do an entire show in the East with stuff like this.

That would be quite interesting, certainly a while season of that story being the main plot driver would be one that I'd like.

And honestly I think it being a generational thing with twisted Elves's offspring becoming orcs over generations is itself about the most twisted thing you can do. You've got these elves who have been twisted and mutilated seeing their children and grandchildren turn into monsters before their eyes. While they can still enjoy the suns warmth, they are tormented by the fact their children cannot. And their immortality becomes a thorn in their side as it forces them to watch the successive generations of their children suffer.

I think it very much fits with Tolkein saying that Morgoth's twisting of Elves into Orcs was his most heinous sin against Eru.

And some of these elves may have been rescued when Angband was overthrown in the War of Wrath, and possibly taken west to heal in Valinor, though how much healing could be done from such evil things is debatable.

Considering other in-universe examples of corruption, chiefly Smeagol, I don't see it being generational.

I mean, it could be, but it feels like one of those questions that neither needs, nor should be answered.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Still, it's the journey, not the destination that matters...

Which is what my spoilered section dealt with: The journey is boring and has no surprises. The journey is just a false obstacle that we know will be removed by the end to get us to the obvious conclusion.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Considering other in-universe examples of corruption, chiefly Smeagol, I don't see it being generational.

I mean, it could be, but it feels like one of those questions that neither needs, nor should be answered.

Given the immortality of Elves, I'd wager the corruption has a more lasting impact upon them, to that of Hobbits.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Still, it's the journey, not the destination that matters...

Which is what my spoilered section dealt with: The journey is boring and has no surprises. The journey is just a false obstacle that we know will be removed by the end to get us to the obvious conclusion.

Sorry (not sorry) to be that guy... but that is true of Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Star Trek, and most "geek" shows. They are formulaic, and emotionally stunted, due to having no real danger for the characters. With the ever increasing use of CGI, I find that story quality has only got worse.

There isn't anything wrong with being formulaic, if you are using the right formula. That is the main issue here.

So…



Still greatly enjoying this.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So…

Spoiler:

I’m guessing that’s Mount Doom blowing it’s top?

Still greatly enjoying this.

I figured that was their end game this whole time for making their own home. Spawn Doom and blot out the sun.

But like… Galadriel is dead now, right? That pyroclastic cloud was blowing down walls and she was just kind of standing in the open there…

Well…who can tell! It’ll be interesting to find out.

Couple of thoughts on ep. 6

Probably the best episode yet, but still some atrocious dialogue and it was a low bar set by the first 5 episodes. Show continues to be pretty brutal, which I don’t mind, but seems out of place compared to the two movie trilogies.

As expected, the show is better when its focused. Was glad there were no cuts to the hobbits, or the goons back in Numenor as that would’ve cut into the tension.

Cool to get confirmation on what Adar is. Actually looking forward to the next episode for once, though I still think the show is mostly ass.

Oh, yeah, suddenly teleporting so far ahead of the bad guy definitely had my groan. Like I figured he was following behind and would have just done a heroic long range spear throw, but nope, we bamf.

Atrocious episode. It's so frustrating how terribly written the show is considering all of the other things they nailed. It looks and feels like Middle Earth, they threw together an ensemble of pretty solid solid performers, the tone and atmosphere are spot on, but holy hell the writing is bad.

Not a great episode, mostly due to bad writing and just... wtf are they even doing?

The fighting scenes just seem so cheap. They have no sense of scale and did nothing to convince me that the Numenoreans are actually soldiers, presumably trained for years and disciplined. Yet they just charge in like undisciplined rabble. No fighting in orderly ranks or anything to distinguish themselves from the orcs or the civilians.

And like this is one bum-feth nowhere village with like 5 houses. How are there like 100 survivors even after the orc attack and half of them joining Adar?

You've got a billion $ budget and you couldn't spring for an actual town, maybe with a palisade, and just a larger # of people overall? Something the size of Bree perhaps. And you couldn't practice with the extras a little to make the Numenoreans ride in straight-ish lines and fight in some nice, disciplined ranks to make them seem cool and well trained. My warband in Mount and Blade holds a formation better than those guys.

And like, why are the villagers surprised that they had to fight their turncoat people... That doesn't seem like something that should have surprised them.

A billion $ show and they can't even have some cool battles with appropriate scale. The whole LOTR Trilogy was shy of $400 million and that had 3 massive epic sized battles. These guys can't even muster 1 small skirmish that seems believable.

If I was Bezos, I'd be like "Where da money go?"

 Grey Templar wrote:


And like this is one bum-feth nowhere village with like 5 houses. How are there like 100 survivors even after the orc attack and half of them joining Adar?

The previous episode showed refugees coming from all over the region to the watchtower, so I don't think they're necessarily all from one village. I always got the impression that the village wasn't where everyone lived, most would be from isolated farmsteads and crofts, and the village was the local hub with the tavern, blacksmith etc.

You are right, I do remember that. Still seems like too many people survived hiding in that tavern than could actually fit. And they still should have had a decent sized town.

I found myself wondering whether the closeups on Arondir getting mouthfuls of black orcish blood might become an issue later.

Nah I think that was just for funsies.