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Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

JakeSiren wrote:
I disagree that Be'lakor's datasheet is gak.

The highlights,
1) He's still good in close combat. He can deal with both hoards and bigger targets.
2) He has two psychic abilities. Betraying shades looks useful against a number of targets, and his shadow form abilities look like they all have their uses - Wreathed in Shadows is great if the opponent gets T1, and Pall of Dispair combos nicely with Shadow of Chaos (which Be'lakor projects)
3) Be'lakor's durability should be reasonable at T10, 18 wounds, a 4++, and Stealth (which is likely a -1 to hit)

So he can deal damage, survive hits, and buffs friendlies? Sounds good to me.

Obviously points will be something that can make or breaks him, but without that information his datasheet wholistically looks good.


Guilliman is better at close combat while buffing his army better due to the second oath of moment. And can hide from shooting with the Lone Operative rule. And although Be'lakor is tankier, Guilliman's profile never degrades and he has a chance to get up.

And at least judging by 9e points Be'lakor is 120 points cheaper. I sincerely doubt they are going to bump Guilliman up over 100 points, so if we're very lucky they will drop the points of Be'lakor, but that blows.

The Keeper of Secrets looks even more pathetic. Like I said: it can't kill a fething rhino. Who here thinks rhinos will suddenly be 300 points? I seriously doubt it. And as for what it can do to a land raider? Lol. And the Land Raider has the same OC as the KoC does, while also presumably having a crew of terminators inside of it.

Our greater daemons save the bloodthirster are going to be hard stopped by anything vehicle or monster tier in durability and the best case scenario is that they will be made cheaper to compensate. I can't wait to see how awe-inspiringly tepid the Lord of Change's psychic rules will be by the way looking at all of the psychic datasheets so far.

It's no surprise though, Daemons are the biggest NPC faction in the game, meant to just be an amusing sideshow to the real villains, the CSM. It is telling that in the so-called "Chaos Daemons faction focus" one of the things they decided to showcase was how to ally Daemons in with CSM. Because that's all Daemons are, a fun second detachment to tack onto your CSM list to add a bit of spice.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

To be fair, in turn 1 belakor and anything within 6" of him cant be targeted by the opponent with anything outside of 18", when you pick wreathed in shades at the start of the battleround.

Agree about the keeper, put a rhino in front of him, and he is disabled.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/12 05:41:30


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Rules look good, the datasheets for the Keeper of Secrets and Be'lakor look like utter gak.

The Keeper bounces off of rhinos now. This is a 300+ points model that can not destroy the weakest tank Marines have.

"But maybe they will make them cheape-" no, feth off and eat a bag of bearshit.

At least the KoC appears to be way tankier.


Yeah, greater daemons should be able to be tank killers, though who knows, there might be ways for daemons to crank out mortal wounds for that. Also, Nurgle daemons might get the Death Guard ability of reducing the toughness of any enemy units within a particular range. Bloodthirsters should most definitely be able to take down large targets, as that's one of their chief purposes. The Insensate Wrath BT should be able to cleave Knights in half with ease.


You can't have both durable tanks/vehicles and then have factloe that doesn't get harder time.

Guess you prefered game where tanks etc got trivially one shotted?


You have trouble with tanks, others will struggle with your gd

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





tneva82 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Rules look good, the datasheets for the Keeper of Secrets and Be'lakor look like utter gak.

The Keeper bounces off of rhinos now. This is a 300+ points model that can not destroy the weakest tank Marines have.

"But maybe they will make them cheape-" no, feth off and eat a bag of bearshit.

At least the KoC appears to be way tankier.


Yeah, greater daemons should be able to be tank killers, though who knows, there might be ways for daemons to crank out mortal wounds for that. Also, Nurgle daemons might get the Death Guard ability of reducing the toughness of any enemy units within a particular range. Bloodthirsters should most definitely be able to take down large targets, as that's one of their chief purposes. The Insensate Wrath BT should be able to cleave Knights in half with ease.


You can't have both durable tanks/vehicles and then have factloe that doesn't get harder time.

Guess you prefered game where tanks etc got trivially one shotted?

You have trouble with tanks, others will struggle with your gd


No, I don't want tanks to be one-shotted, but I do think that greater daemons should be big and strong enough to take them on.
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




I'm wondering if chaos daemons will be pushed even further in the direction of needing to field units from different chaos gods in the same force. I love mono-god for fluff and visual reasons but I guess that might need to take a backseat in the new edition. I suppose it means I can do some conversions to have faux mono-god models.

Im a bit disappointed with Belakors strike attacks, d6+1 is just so unreliable, especially with the probable lack of rerolls. His buffs seem powerful though. I'm interested to see how the greater daemons compare to him. It's probably better for internal balance if there is a genuine case to take GDs over be'lakor. Anyway just my 2cents.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

tneva82 wrote:

You can't have both durable tanks/vehicles and then have factloe that doesn't get harder time.


Except marines, guard, and other factions dont have a harder time against tanks. They can kill them from a distance, daemons cant. Maybe a skull cannon will be able to do so. Guard can even autowound tanks from a distance on hits of 5s with flashlights. Daemons cant do that.

tneva82 wrote:

You have trouble with tanks, others will struggle with your gd


No. Anything that kills tanks will kill GDs.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Unless that attack relies on good AP.

A T12 W16 3+ model is not as tough as a T12 W16 4++ model for most weapons you’d target it with.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JNAProductions wrote:
Unless that attack relies on good AP.

A T12 W16 3+ model is not as tough as a T12 W16 4++ model for most weapons you’d target it with.


AP-10 doesnt matter when you dont wound.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

And a chain fist wounds literally twice as well against a Stompa than any T9-15 Daemon.

Wait till clouds land to yell about the sky falling.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

ArikTaranis wrote:
I'm wondering if chaos daemons will be pushed even further in the direction of needing to field units from different chaos gods in the same force. I love mono-god for fluff and visual reasons but I guess that might need to take a backseat in the new edition. I suppose it means I can do some conversions to have faux mono-god models.

Im a bit disappointed with Belakors strike attacks, d6+1 is just so unreliable, especially with the probable lack of rerolls. His buffs seem powerful though. I'm interested to see how the greater daemons compare to him. It's probably better for internal balance if there is a genuine case to take GDs over be'lakor. Anyway just my 2cents.


From what i can see, thier will be no mechanical BONUS to being mono-god, as they are deliberatly going away form a "subfaction" model, where bonuses are tied to specific lore entites like Chapters, Legions, Godly Alignments, Forge Worlds, etc, towards a lore-agnostic "detachment" model. Whatever new detactments we will get when our codex drops, they will not be "godly" detachments, focused around a single gods forces. I think they will focus more on a "style" of demonic invasion, so maybe a new form of the Disciples of Belakor mixed deamon/CSM detachment, or things along that line.


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




I could see at least one of the detachments in the future codex being about god purity, but I also wouldn't be shocked if there wasn't.

It is also way way way too early to be getting too upset about the previewed rules.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Rules look good, the datasheets for the Keeper of Secrets and Be'lakor look like utter gak.

The Keeper bounces off of rhinos now. This is a 300+ points model that can not destroy the weakest tank Marines have.

"But maybe they will make them cheape-" no, feth off and eat a bag of bearshit.

At least the KoC appears to be way tankier.


Yeah, greater daemons should be able to be tank killers, though who knows, there might be ways for daemons to crank out mortal wounds for that. Also, Nurgle daemons might get the Death Guard ability of reducing the toughness of any enemy units within a particular range. Bloodthirsters should most definitely be able to take down large targets, as that's one of their chief purposes. The Insensate Wrath BT should be able to cleave Knights in half with ease.


You can't have both durable tanks/vehicles and then have factloe that doesn't get harder time.

Guess you prefered game where tanks etc got trivially one shotted?

You have trouble with tanks, others will struggle with your gd


No, I don't want tanks to be one-shotted, but I do think that greater daemons should be big and strong enough to take them on.


And then others want their tanks be big and strong enough to take on gd's. And we are back at tanks and gd's being 1 shottable chaff.

Or you think gd's should be able to take tanks but not reverse? Lol

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

tneva82 wrote:


And then others want their tanks be big and strong enough to take on gd's. And we are back at tanks and gd's being 1 shottable chaff.

Or you think gd's should be able to take tanks but not reverse? Lol


Greater Daemons are priced at like twice the value of a Leman Russ, much less a rhino. The idea that a close combat model over three times the price of a rhino shouldn't be able to kill a rhino in close combat is really idiotic my friend.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 Void__Dragon wrote:
tneva82 wrote:


And then others want their tanks be big and strong enough to take on gd's. And we are back at tanks and gd's being 1 shottable chaff.

Or you think gd's should be able to take tanks but not reverse? Lol


Greater Daemons are priced at like twice the value of a Leman Russ, much less a rhino. The idea that a close combat model over three times the price of a rhino shouldn't be able to kill a rhino in close combat is really idiotic my friend.

Let's actually look at that though. Let's take a Rhino vs a Keeper of Secrets.
Assumption: The wounding chart is the same.
Assumption: There are no offensive or defensive buffs applied outside of what's on the datasheets.
Assumption: Both models are at full health.

The Rhino defensive profile is T9, 3+, and 10 wounds.

Keeper attacks with Phantasmagoria (witchfire). 6 attacks, 5 hit. Wounding on a 5+, and a 6+ causes a devastating wound (1 mortal). So for simplicity we call it 1 unsaved wound, bringing the Rhino down to 9 wounds.

The Keeper gets into close combat.
Whitstealer sword gets 5 hits, ~2 wounds at AP-3. The Rhino gets a 6+ save. We would expect 2 unsaved wounds causing 6 damage. The total is 7 damage.

You then have the snapping claws. 4 attacks, lets say 3 hits. Wounding on a 5+, and a 6+ causes a devastating wound (3 mortals). It wouldn't be unexpected for the wound to go through (rhino gets a 6+ at best), causing an additional 3 damage, totalling to 10. So dead Rhino.

If you give the Keeper either the whip or ritual knife then it becomes more reliable in killing the Rhino. You can also use the focused version of Phantasmagoria for more attempts at wounding the Rhino.

Will the Keeper kill the Rhino every time? No, but it has around 50/50 chance of killing it out right. We don't know how things like Battle Shock might apply in this case, where the Rhino wouldn't be allowed to fall back, allowing you to kill it in your opponents turn if you didn't do so in your turn.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

A 50/50 chance is bad for a model costing three times as much as a rhino, assuming points stay roughly the same. You also assume that you can use ranged (psychic) attacks in close combat, we dont know if thats possible, or not.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/14 07:56:00


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




He was probably assuming the Keeper did its psychic attacks as it walked up to the Rhino before charging it.

A Leman Russ armed with a Battlecannon, 2 Heavy Bolters and 1 Lascannon with the Take Aim order looks like it should do 3.9 wounds to a Keeper or 2.6 to an Aegis Keeper.

My own figures give an Aegis Keeper doing 5.3 wounds to a T12 2+ Leman Russ and 6.25 (edited) wounds to a T9 3+ Rhino (which will give it a battleshock test to take).

But we don't know full rules for the:
Command phase
Movement phase
Shooting phase
Charge phase
Fight phase
All of which could be vital to assessing the relative strength of these units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some extra figures and I'll be amazed if I've kept it down to just one error.

Land Raider does 5.2 to Keeper in shooting with Oath, Keeper does 5.3 in shooting/melee (always letting the Keeper shoot as she should get the drop on most targets).

Angron does 10.9 to Keeper (gave him full re-rolls and sustained hits 1), Keeper does 5.4 back.

Berzerkers do 2.1 (sus hits 1), Keeper does 11.8 back.

Abaddon does 7.4 (re-rolls and sus hits 1), Keeper does 10.4 back.

Roboute does 7.6 (oath), Keeper does 5.4 back.

Swarmlord does 3.7 (no buffs), Keeper does 5.4 back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/14 10:40:19


 
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




Just going back to Be'lakor's datasheet. His focussed witchfire is actually pretty formidable, now that we know what Hazardous does from the recent leaks. Instead of 1s to hit cause a mortal wound, it's just a separate dice roll per Hazardous weapon, and on a 1 it'll cause 3mw to Be'lakor.

12 shots at S6 AP3 D1 with ignores cover and devastating wounds is deadly against the right targets. Given the actual effects of Hazardous, I'm probably pretty happy to use this focussed profile most of the time, and if I do roll a 1, I can use a command reroll on it if I really want to.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Agreed on HAZARDOUS.

Belakor's anti shooting outside 18" aura looks really good now we've seen so many solid long range guns. Especially looking at how FLY doesn't grant as much maneuverability (less hiding behind a big L shaped ruin, although maybe we'll see 1" high ruins suddenly become very popular) and re-branded obscuring doesn't work on TOWERING units like Knights.

And finally, the Dark Eldar seem to have a lot less access to easy ways to wound monsters in 10th (poison now being ANTI INFANTRY) which is good news for all monster mash lovers.
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




Yeah I think that aura of Be'lakors will be a critical way to protect our units from alpha strike. I can't quite figure out how useful shadow of chaos will be for us, but if nothing else be'lakor can reliably pass his own battleshock tests and heal himself. Maybe spook a few enemies too.

Another thing I'm wondering about is what our enhancements will be - maybe only one or two from our detachment? I'm thinking they won't want to tie relics to specific gods, as they seem to be moving away from mono-God stuff. Based on the leaks I've seen, it looks like named characters will no longer get a warlord trait, a bit like AoS.

   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

ArikTaranis wrote:
Yeah I think that aura of Be'lakors will be a critical way to protect our units from alpha strike. I can't quite figure out how useful shadow of chaos will be for us, but if nothing else be'lakor can reliably pass his own battleshock tests and heal himself. Maybe spook a few enemies too.

Another thing I'm wondering about is what our enhancements will be - maybe only one or two from our detachment? I'm thinking they won't want to tie relics to specific gods, as they seem to be moving away from mono-God stuff. Based on the leaks I've seen, it looks like named characters will no longer get a warlord trait, a bit like AoS.



bear in mind "enhancements" covers WLT as well as relics. they could just go with all WLT.

then again, it would be easy enough to keep the relics generic enough. "Demon-bound blade" or "Talisman of Fear", etc.

also, while the basic detachment form the index might be undivided, theirs nothing stopping them doing godly detachments in the full codex (or at least, detachments that grant an extra bonus to KHORNE/NURGLE/SLANNESH/TZNEETCH units, etc). We dont know exactly how full codex detachments will function, but something like that would be fine.

I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, the marine codex had a "vanguard company" detachment that gave all PHOBOS armoured units a bonus, or a "1st company" with bonuses to terminator units. They stated that they didn't want to lock the good bonuses behind colour schemes, but that seemed more aimed at the imperial factions than anything else.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in fr
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Yea equilavent for khorne(bonuses by paint colour) would be different bonus to red khorne than black khorne

Separate detachments favouring specific god makes sense. Question is are you forced to go mono or are other gods just without bonus.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

tneva82 wrote:
Yea equilavent for khorne(bonuses by paint colour) would be different bonus to red khorne than black khorne

Separate detachments favouring specific god makes sense. Question is are you forced to go mono or are other gods just without bonus.


i mean, for the answer to that, we will have to look how the Marine 'dex does things.

my guess would be a preferential detachment bonus to a single god type, along with the strats and enhancements being tied more towards that god, as that encourages a mono-god army but doesn't prohibit use of other gods stuff to plug a weakness.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




What I'm thinking is that our codex is a long way off judging by the road map GW published, at least a year I think. So that means we'll have to make do with probably a fairly basic (but hopefully decent) set of rules for quite a while. We just get what we get and have to play with it for the forseeable future.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Yeah, it'll be a while.

Personally, I'd be happy with a bonus for mono-god detachments that don't break the army if you mix-and-match. Perhaps, "This is a Slaanesh detachment. All Slaanesh models get X bonus, even if the detachment includes non-Slaanesh units."

Then there can be specific detachments per god, allowing for hopefully interesting rules, but you don't lose it if you plug a hole with a different god's unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the non-Slaanesh units would be without a bonus. Like, punish the non-god units rather than the entire detachment.

That makes sense to me, and it'd add some interesting decisions to make when list-building.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/01 08:09:07


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




It depends how many detachments we get in the codex. If it is just 5 then 4 mono god and 1 Belakor detachment is a bit yawn. If it is 9 detachments, then 4 mono god, 1 Belakor and 4 mixed god detachments (maybe - all big lads, all little lads, all the fast stuff and say a great game/aniomsity one) would give some stuff to play around with.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Agreed. I hope there are a bunch of detachments for every army, to be honest.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

so, on page 249 of the 10th ed rumours thread, theirs a load of demon datasheets form a recent 10th ed reveal gamestream.

we've now got fronts for the:

Lord of Change
Flamers
Exalted flamer
Screamers

Plaguebearers

Bloodthirster
Hounds of Khorne

Keeper of secrets

head on over for a gander:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7440/808533.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 09:51:38


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




"Wow, these rules look fresh and new."

*Opens his 8th edition codex*

"Those lazy gits."
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




Not gonna lie, I feel pretty disheartened looking at those tzeentch datasheets.

Was expecting a big antitank psychic attack on the LoC, but his power seems a bit anemic. Maybe it's not too bad with the choice of added special rule. Flamers look terrible, I was expecting them to be nerfed but not that hard. Loss of strength hurts their attacks badly. Exalted flamer looks a bit weak sauce. To add insult to injury, flamers and exalteds have psychic attacks, which is a big liability. Screamers look dreadful other than the super speed. Their close combat punch is feeble, thought they would get anti vehicle.

I guess if you're running tzeentch you'll need a LoC for that +1 strength aura for shooting. Maybe several lords of change.

Edit: On the positive side, at least they're looking fairly resilient now that they don't fold immediately against melee attacks. Also, LoC benefits from his own aura, so his shooting is a little better than I first thought. Also flamers falling back and shooting is decent.

Edit 2: OK lords of change are growing on me, and soul grinders and daemon princes look decent.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 23:49:38


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





The LoC can also get a relic staff that adds another strength to ranged attacks, so with that the Bolt of Change is a plenty respectable S11, 12 in the Shadow of Chaos.
   
 
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