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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

a_typical_hero wrote:
Breton wrote:

Don't forget that repeating something that is not true does not make it true. Wanting a thing to be true does not make it true. People who tell you what you want to hear does not make it true. 5 minutes with the official PDF would have also told you this was not true. Willfully ignoring almost a month of people telling you it wasn't all free, and it wasn't free everywhere doesn't make it true. He's off at least 114 points, and an argument could be made for being off by 164 or more.

You can try not to forget to not be a dick about it as well. I don't have a horse in this race as I'm not even playing 9th edition -> I don't really care if Marines are better because of x or y. I was simply pointing out that wargear cost alone is not the full picture if model costs changed as well.


So someone who doesn't play the game & doesn't care is trying to make a point about said game by using incorrect #s/math....
Why??
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Breton wrote:
I was going to ask if you were having an honesty or an accuracy problem but given that your 230 points of "freebies" is off by 114+ or more out of your 230 claimed points, I'm not sure if makes a difference. If you can't get basic facts like the two biggest chunks of what you're going to call free gear aren't actually free and still cost points, how much credibility will your analysis get?


1) I did a quick run up against the old MFM and made the mistake of assuming that VV had full free upgrades. People make mistakes?
2) I already mentioned I don't care about body cost, because everyone is freaking out about wargear as that is the intent of the initial post.
3) You seem fit to try and attack me as if I am trying to claim that free wargear is bad or something? Honestly I can't tell with your absurd attempt to call me deceitful.

Ultimately this would make it even more the point that IH aren't winning on point cuts and the problem is going to be rule stacking so thanks for helping to reinforce my point, I guess? Take a chill pill next time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/01 21:14:47


 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Daedalus81 wrote:

1) I did a quick run up against the old MFM and made the mistake of assuming that VV had full free upgrades. People make mistakes?
Despite a month of people pointing it out, and even frequently pointing specifically to VV as a specific example?

2) I already mentioned I don't care about body cost, because everyone is freaking out about wargear as that is the intent of the initial post.
Except the rise in Devastator Body Cost offsets quite a bit of that free Wargear.

3) You seem fit to try and attack me as if I am trying to claim that free wargear is bad or something? Honestly I can't tell with your absurd attempt to call me deceitful.
Who can tell what you're trying to claim when you drastically overstate the levels of "free" wargear as the reason free wargear is not important - especially without the context of what other units improved or not with the "free" wargear.

Ultimately this would make it even more the point that IH aren't winning on point cuts and the problem is going to be rule stacking so thanks for helping to reinforce my point, I guess? Take a chill pill next time.


Of the two of us, who was in such a hurry to point out yet another problem with Space Marines they tripped over the basic step of looking at the current MFM so they could lay out a new "problem" with Marine armies winning and needs the chill pill? Are you sure you don't want to incorporate some of the other "problems" with Space Marines like the what was it 20 new releases out of 150 or so - you know, more than half - being Space Marines?


The overall point about free wargear is certainly borne out by the real and honest facts. Not so much by repeating the deceitful ones and trying to make a claim that flies in the face of said inaccuracies.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Breton wrote:
Are you sure you don't want to incorporate some of the other "problems" with Space Marines like the what was it 20 new releases out of 150 or so - you know, more than half - being Space Marines?
Man, wouldn't it just suck if the person that said that then double-checked themselves, acknowledged what they said was inaccurate, and actually went out of their way to find the actual numbers?

Boy, that would really put a damper on your whole "Anyone who dislikes the massive amount of attention Marines get is just a rabid hater," narrative.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
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Well this is a pleasant discussion.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I love the lack of critical thinking involved in this post. "Haha! Marines only won a 2nd place in an 8 round 200+ person GT, clearly you are wrong OP!" They also went 1st and 3rd in the WTC Spain tournament, but in fairness that was a 46 player tournament. SO out of 2 GT sized events they won....3 out of the top 6 places. Yeah definitely not top tier.


I think it stands sufficiently in contrast with the opening statement for this thread. Potentially they didn't overvalue AoC. But, of course it is still really early and lots can change.

It is also pretty notable that none of the marines that did ( visibly ) well consisted of any significant amount of shooting.



Literally the first two results for AoO I have seen, so yeah very much early and I have a strong feeling that its only going to get worse, not better. Because realistically what is the counter to free stuff? Yeah, Marines are squishier now then before, but you can also take more of them. I do find it a bit...interesting, that the two armies that did take troops, still took Infiltrators instead of just tac Marines with a free heavy weapon and a Sgt with an upgraded weapon. I guess the forward deploy and the Free Helix Gauntlet is just too good for 200pts as opposed to 180pts of Tac Marines with 2 Multi-Meltas (Or Lascannons) and 2 Combi Meltas (or plasmas) and 2 Thunderhammers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, I apologize, there were two other smaller GTs that utilized AoO, so Marines only finished with 4 out of 12 top 3 finishes...2 of which were 1st place.


Those tac marines will get shot out of board generally before getting to shoot.

And seeing how overpriced they were before AND losing AOC...

Of course they could have made tac marines 14pts/model base and weapon price. Better?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in dk
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Assuming 14 points makes Tacticals viable without being overpowered and makes their weapon options viable without being overpowered then that is obviously better than Tacticals being unviable and their options being relatively overpowered to a naked unit.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





14 point tac marines would move them too much toward horde, which many don't like. Between the two solutions I prefer them costing more with the cost of the weapon baked in.
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard






Units of 5 Space Marines should cost the same as units of 10, I just like the 10-man units better, so now you should all have to play 10-man units. /sarcasm
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Breton wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

1) I did a quick run up against the old MFM and made the mistake of assuming that VV had full free upgrades. People make mistakes?
Despite a month of people pointing it out, and even frequently pointing specifically to VV as a specific example?

2) I already mentioned I don't care about body cost, because everyone is freaking out about wargear as that is the intent of the initial post.
Except the rise in Devastator Body Cost offsets quite a bit of that free Wargear.

3) You seem fit to try and attack me as if I am trying to claim that free wargear is bad or something? Honestly I can't tell with your absurd attempt to call me deceitful.
Who can tell what you're trying to claim when you drastically overstate the levels of "free" wargear as the reason free wargear is not important - especially without the context of what other units improved or not with the "free" wargear.

Ultimately this would make it even more the point that IH aren't winning on point cuts and the problem is going to be rule stacking so thanks for helping to reinforce my point, I guess? Take a chill pill next time.


Of the two of us, who was in such a hurry to point out yet another problem with Space Marines they tripped over the basic step of looking at the current MFM so they could lay out a new "problem" with Marine armies winning and needs the chill pill? Are you sure you don't want to incorporate some of the other "problems" with Space Marines like the what was it 20 new releases out of 150 or so - you know, more than half - being Space Marines?


The overall point about free wargear is certainly borne out by the real and honest facts. Not so much by repeating the deceitful ones and trying to make a claim that flies in the face of said inaccuracies.


All that and I still think you don't understand what I'm saying.
   
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It wasn't the right thread, but Breton is right that people overly complain about Loyalist Scum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Breton wrote:
I was going to ask if you were having an honesty or an accuracy problem but given that your 230 points of "freebies" is off by 114+ or more out of your 230 claimed points, I'm not sure if makes a difference. If you can't get basic facts like the two biggest chunks of what you're going to call free gear aren't actually free and still cost points, how much credibility will your analysis get?


1) I did a quick run up against the old MFM and made the mistake of assuming that VV had full free upgrades. People make mistakes?
2) I already mentioned I don't care about body cost, because everyone is freaking out about wargear as that is the intent of the initial post.
3) You seem fit to try and attack me as if I am trying to claim that free wargear is bad or something? Honestly I can't tell with your absurd attempt to call me deceitful.

Ultimately this would make it even more the point that IH aren't winning on point cuts and the problem is going to be rule stacking so thanks for helping to reinforce my point, I guess? Take a chill pill next time.


Even if the math is wrong, 100+ points of free gear is still 100+ points of free gear. Individual Rhinos were bad in 7th, but guess what happens when they're essentially free?

I'd wager a couple more tournaments and people will break the free wargear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/02 18:19:38


 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




EviscerationPlague wrote:
It wasn't the right thread, but Breton is right that people overly complain about Loyalist Scum.

I'd wager a couple more tournaments and people will break the free wargear.


Again, rare occasion I agree on all accounts. I also think the free gear thing is a tricky situation as for the largest majority of the player base, casuals and garage hammers, local tourney and groups etc. People aren't likely to run out and buy 27 thunder hammers and rip all their models hands off etc. So any carte blanche changes to base costs will wildly impact the none tournament winners far more.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
It wasn't the right thread, but Breton is right that people overly complain about Loyalist Scum.

I'd wager a couple more tournaments and people will break the free wargear.


Again, rare occasion I agree on all accounts. I also think the free gear thing is a tricky situation as for the largest majority of the player base, casuals and garage hammers, local tourney and groups etc. People aren't likely to run out and buy 27 thunder hammers and rip all their models hands off etc. So any carte blanche changes to base costs will wildly impact the none tournament winners far more.

It doesn't need to be Thunder Hammers alone though. Many people, including myself, have used Sergeants with Power Fists on the off chance we need to charge something or get stuck in. It was points you paid for on a situation that you didn't necessarily know if you'd go into.

Big case in point, I revamped a Black Templars list with two squads of Sternguard. Not only did those Multi-Meltas become free, but the Power Fists I paid for on those Sergeants, due to being a melee Chapter and wanting to get mileage of rerolling charges, became free as well.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think Daed's point is that what makes a good 40k list in the modern game - certainly in the Nephilim season, and presumably continuing into Arks of Omen - is usually beyond pure mathhammer. This isn't to say you want to take units which have explicitly worse mathhammer if they do the same thing. But its usually functionality that ensures you get objectives and deny other people objectives.

So focusing on say "this is stupid, a tactical marine squad with an MM is clearly better than a naked tactical marine squad" doesn't necessarily tell you how either are useful in maxing out your objectives. It tells you they are better in a garage style game where you push your models into each other and the winner is the last man standing - but that's not really the rules any more.

So for example yes, on paper, 5 tactical marines with a thunder hammer, combi-melta and an MM would seem better than 5 infiltrators (which cost more points to boot). But those infiltrators bring things other than damage. They get that forward deploy and the no reinforcements in 12". Its bringing functionality that the tactical marines just don't have. Now admittedly you might say "but what if I really need to kill a tank" but you've probably got other stuff in your list that could do that.

I mean I feel fairly safe in saying a Terminator with a Thunder hammer and Storm Shield shouldn't be 33 points - and while chucking down 30 may not be an auto-win for top players, its going to be incredibly obnoxious for garage hammer when people shove them across the table. But me saying "33 points is bonkers, compare them to say Axe/shield Wraithblades or Hearthguard costing 45" that doesn't tell us a lot about how tournaments are going to go.
   
Made in us
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Tacoma, WA, USA

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
It wasn't the right thread, but Breton is right that people overly complain about Loyalist Scum.

I'd wager a couple more tournaments and people will break the free wargear.


Again, rare occasion I agree on all accounts. I also think the free gear thing is a tricky situation as for the largest majority of the player base, casuals and garage hammers, local tourney and groups etc. People aren't likely to run out and buy 27 thunder hammers and rip all their models hands off etc. So any carte blanche changes to base costs will wildly impact the none tournament winners far more.

It doesn't need to be Thunder Hammers alone though. Many people, including myself, have used Sergeants with Power Fists on the off chance we need to charge something or get stuck in. It was points you paid for on a situation that you didn't necessarily know if you'd go into.

Big case in point, I revamped a Black Templars list with two squads of Sternguard. Not only did those Multi-Meltas become free, but the Power Fists I paid for on those Sergeants, due to being a melee Chapter and wanting to get mileage of rerolling charges, became free as well.
The real question isn't about them being free. The question is does the current point value (free wargear and all) properly reflect the unit value in the game?

Assuming your example is a 5 Sternguard with 2 Multi-Meltas and a Power Fist which is closer to the unit's value?
  • Nephalim (MFM 2022 MkII): 150 points (20/model + 20 per MM + 10 for PF) with AOC
  • Arks of Omen (MFM 2023 MK1): 100 Points, but no AOC

  • I'm not saying that Sternguard with no upgrade cost are fine, but that's mostly because you can upgrade every model to a Combi-weapon of some sort, not because you don't pay for Sgt and special/heavy weapon upgrades.
       
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    Doesn't this get even sillier when we take chapter bonuses into account? What did BA assault Terminators cost before this, versus now, with all their +1 shenanigans....
       
    Made in us
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     JNAProductions wrote:
    Breton wrote:
    Are you sure you don't want to incorporate some of the other "problems" with Space Marines like the what was it 20 new releases out of 150 or so - you know, more than half - being Space Marines?
    Man, wouldn't it just suck if the person that said that then double-checked themselves, acknowledged what they said was inaccurate, and actually went out of their way to find the actual numbers?

    Boy, that would really put a damper on your whole "Anyone who dislikes the massive amount of attention Marines get is just a rabid hater," narrative.


    Nah, it just makes it an easier point to make as bias replacing facts just happened again by someone who called SM winning a problem.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    tneva82 wrote:


    Of course they could have made tac marines 14pts/model base and weapon price. Better?


    Its not going to be just the Tacs. A Tac Body is the baseline cost for Firstborn. So 14pt Tac Marines means 14 Point Assault Marines, and 14 Point Devs. That may or may not translate out to the *-Veteran and Scout Squads but Scouts would be more likely than Veterans. I'm also not really sure why Tacs are more vulnerable than Intercessors, Infiltrators etc. I mean I know what's going to come up, but its not Every Primaris Squad on the board etc.

    Assuming they aren't getting split, I'd prefer/suspect to see the Strat either drop first/primaris restrictions, or a second strat for first born working off of their pride and/or experience window dressing to get to the same place.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Daedalus81 wrote:


    All that and I still think you don't understand what I'm saying.


    What's to understand? You said you think it's not the weapon prices, then told the whole world you didn't listen to the people who had already pointed out not all wargear everywhere was free, or do even the basic research necessary to come to that conclusion before finishing with SM winning being a problem.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    EviscerationPlague wrote:


    I'd wager a couple more tournaments and people will break the free wargear.


    I'm less sure. The first few places you're looking to get that free wargear, the wargear isn't free. When people first misrepresented the free wargear, the first thing I did was go to the MFM PDF and look at Vanguard Vets. They don't get it. Neither do Company Vets. Company Vets didn't even drop to 18 points a body. Some units have reslotted themselves in the pecking order, but I don't see radical changes. Sternguard can't get Stormshields. Cent Devs are still too expensive to not get Rerolls. There's some interesting potential for MSU Ravenwing that hasn't been looked at as much as the more obvious Deathwing.

    I keep looking at the units that get "free wargear" and most often I see "standing out" on a Primaris unit's weapon swaps. And even then, the unit usually still isn't worth it. Eliminators? Not enough bodies to generate not enough shots, even if the las fusil is free. You can get more/better las talons easier/cheaper/better on multiple platforms. For example the Firestrike. Which still isn't really worth it. Most of the lists I made before hand ended up with about 300'ish points of space after the MFM dropped, but it was nickel and dime stuff like the points drop on characters, Chapter Command, etc. The biggest chunk change was the Aggressors with Boltstorms. And people taking boltstorms were still taking them, people taking Firestorms usually didnt do it because they were cheaper.

    That all adds up to this functioning more like simple points drops because the "free wargear" isn't particularly spammable.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
    Doesn't this get even sillier when we take chapter bonuses into account? What did BA assault Terminators cost before this, versus now, with all their +1 shenanigans....


    The same as everyone else? I think BA get their Terminators from the SM Codex not their supplement. They get some value-added bonus to their Terminators with Strats and the like but I still think BA want to lean into DC/VV/SG in the Elites slot (They get basically the same Deep Strike ability, and better movement) - possibly using the Jumpers to tarpit a unit until the Terminators can get a charge off. DA are rightly the ones who might want to lean into Terminators as they can give Terminators ObSec, have added Terminator/Deathwing based strats, and can synergize Plasma Canon Terminators with their base Chapter Tactic.

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/02/03 05:53:53


    My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
       
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    I think the free wargear will play a part in the success of SM in the AoO meta, and I'm pretty sure SM will be successful overall. However, I think a lot of lists and players are concentrating a little too much on stuffing as much of the free wargear as possible into lists right now. The real competitive lists will probably leverage that to a lesser degree but get most of their power from the always-on Devastator doctrine and how silly Codex Warfare is now for chapters that can take advantage of that Doctrine.
       
    Made in gb
    Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




    Slipspace wrote:
    I think the free wargear will play a part in the success of SM in the AoO meta, and I'm pretty sure SM will be successful overall. However, I think a lot of lists and players are concentrating a little too much on stuffing as much of the free wargear as possible into lists right now. The real competitive lists will probably leverage that to a lesser degree but get most of their power from the always-on Devastator doctrine and how silly Codex Warfare is now for chapters that can take advantage of that Doctrine.


    This seems the sensible take, like Semper likes to say though, as marines are the normal and most common any changes in response to this might tank the faction for everyone but those who can manipulate free things, it's not impossible someone who can access and is willing to redesign their models might be able to pilot a top end list, someone who got lucky on what they own but plays casually might land in that same place playing outside of tourneys, but people who don't cater to this sort of things and just play what they have likely won't see such large upticks and might actually only just be sat at that 50/50 point.

    As said earlier in this thread by others, GW's relative success/failure with this change isn't going to be entirely orchestrated, but it'll affect different players in ways massively depending if they try to change tact again.
       
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    Dudeface wrote:


    it's not impossible someone who can access and is willing to redesign their models might be able to pilot a top end list,


    Feel free to tell us which ways that happens? A month of people pointing out its not free everywhere, and people still try and float this. So lets hear it. Show us how.

    My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
       
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    Breton wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:


    it's not impossible someone who can access and is willing to redesign their models might be able to pilot a top end list,


    Feel free to tell us which ways that happens? A month of people pointing out its not free everywhere, and people still try and float this. So lets hear it. Show us how.


    Don't be so obtuse, it doesn't matter if they're free or not, the changes in the meta and the shift of what's "best" changes constantly, some players are capable of keeping pace either via access to endless piles of bits, commission painters or it being their literal job.

    I don't have the lists of the winning factions but it's shown in here they do have more free stuff, by definition. If a gun that was previously overpriced for a unit is now free, they may switch.

    I'm not talking about loading an army full of free gak like in the OP, I mean swapping for example the gun on a hellblaster on a whim due to a points change. Giving sargeants a combi bolter when they wouldn't before. That sort of thing. Small incremental tweaks.

    Can you prove that adding in free upgrades doesn't help? You act as if every unit is still having baked in price increases, terminators for DA benefit from free upgrades for example and are showing to be an early top list contender.
       
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    Dudeface 808330 11487898 wrote:
    Can you prove that adding in free upgrades doesn't help? You act as if every unit is still having baked in price increases, terminators for DA benefit from free upgrades for example and are showing to be an early top list contender.


    For any faction? Because Grey knights got point drops, have no doctrines, got no changes to tides, and with the point drops the win rate actualy went down.

    If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
       
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    Stasis

    Karol wrote:
    Dudeface 808330 11487898 wrote:
    Can you prove that adding in free upgrades doesn't help? You act as if every unit is still having baked in price increases, terminators for DA benefit from free upgrades for example and are showing to be an early top list contender.


    For any faction? Because Grey knights got point drops, have no doctrines, got no changes to tides, and with the point drops the win rate actualy went down.


    GK kicked butt this past weekend in AoO tournaments, if I recall correctly, multiple placings, including at least 1 1st place.

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    GT 2nd place and GT 3rd place for GK, both lists used 4 Dreadknights, but we don't care about internal balance do we? The stat check podcast is 2 hours long and seems LVO centric and the 40kstats site didn't want to update and show me the win rate so I don't know about that.
       
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    tneva82 wrote:

    Those tac marines will get shot out of board generally before getting to shoot.

    And seeing how overpriced they were before AND losing AOC...

    Of course they could have made tac marines 14pts/model base and weapon price. Better?


    LVO Ork list took a unit of Lootas (go figure). To kill a loota takes basically 5.4 bolter shots. 5.4 shots, 3.6 hits, 1.2 wounds, 1 failed armor save. So to kill 5 of them takes 27 bolter shots. To kill 1 Tac Marine takes 18 bolter shots. So to kill 5 of them takes 90 shots. 5 Lootas are 20pts cheaper than 5 Tac Marines, so there is a points difference, but durability wise...those Marines are literally 3x more durable vs Small Arms. So the argument that a Tac Marine is so flimsy that it gets shot off the table before being able to fire is....nonsense. Can it be done? yeah of course, but if you are focus firing a Tac squad instead of the real threats you will probably not last long.

    Now, if you want to drop a Tac Marine down to the value of a Loota? GO for it, but that will just cause the tourny players to swamp the board with Marine bodies because no matter what, a T4 2W 3+ model is still incredibly durable, just not vs weapons that are geared towards killing them (Plasma, Melta etc.)

    As far as overpriced....I mean, in a meta where 60% or more of the armies you are going to face are running 3+ armor on average...yeah, but only because as I said, everyone builds into that defensive profile. Why did Ork hordes do well in late 8th? Because nobody was prepared to face 120-150 throw away models that relied on a 5++ and a FNP instead of armor.

    Give it another 2-3 weeks and we are going to start seeing the meta normalize. And as I said, i still predict factions of Marines to be the new Top Tier.

     Tomsug wrote:
    Semper krumps under the radar

     
       
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     vict0988 wrote:
    GT 2nd place and GT 3rd place for GK, both lists used 4 Dreadknights, but we don't care about internal balance do we? The stat check podcast is 2 hours long and seems LVO centric and the 40kstats site didn't want to update and show me the win rate so I don't know about that.

    It is not a question of internal balance, but placing of the faction over all. The GK , when played under Omen rule set, went over all, down in win rates. I remember that when the first ad mecha mega nerfs came out, the faction was considered dead. And for the mythical 99% of players it was, they dropped to like under 40% win rates. At the same time some genius mega brain won a huge tournament with them. Which resulted in more ad mecha nerfs, which may I say was funny to watch.

    Placing of single players give in top groups for GK are not as high for other faction, specialy not the ones that 50%+ win rate. GK win rates actualy went down with omen.
    Because unlike almost all other loyalist they didn't get the more important buff to army rules. IMO if all factions get point drops, or at least most do, then the impact of the changes is small. And if it is big, GW decides it is a typo an plasmaceptors are back to being not worth taking. .



    GK kicked butt this past weekend in AoO tournaments, if I recall correctly, multiple placings, including at least 1 1st place.

    but the over all placement of GK armies went down. While for example eldar, Inari and even harlequin, with the last one being very low represented, have very good as in +50%, win rates. That is the difference. It is very hard right now to play, lets say a DA or IH list. At the same time armies that share the doctrine changes did not see a huge bust in win rates, while others like BA have seen a drop, because losing AoC is a huge blow to sang guard.

    If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
       
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    In My Lab

    Karol wrote:
     vict0988 wrote:
    GT 2nd place and GT 3rd place for GK, both lists used 4 Dreadknights, but we don't care about internal balance do we? The stat check podcast is 2 hours long and seems LVO centric and the 40kstats site didn't want to update and show me the win rate so I don't know about that.

    It is not a question of internal balance, but placing of the faction over all. The GK , when played under Omen rule set, went over all, down in win rates. I remember that when the first ad mecha mega nerfs came out, the faction was considered dead. And for the mythical 99% of players it was, they dropped to like under 40% win rates. At the same time some genius mega brain won a huge tournament with them. Which resulted in more ad mecha nerfs, which may I say was funny to watch.

    Placing of single players give in top groups for GK are not as high for other faction, specialy not the ones that 50%+ win rate. GK win rates actualy went down with omen.
    Because unlike almost all other loyalist they didn't get the more important buff to army rules. IMO if all factions get point drops, or at least most do, then the impact of the changes is small. And if it is big, GW decides it is a typo an plasmaceptors are back to being not worth taking. .



    GK kicked butt this past weekend in AoO tournaments, if I recall correctly, multiple placings, including at least 1 1st place.

    but the over all placement of GK armies went down. While for example eldar, Inari and even harlequin, with the last one being very low represented, have very good as in +50%, win rates. That is the difference. It is very hard right now to play, lets say a DA or IH list. At the same time armies that share the doctrine changes did not see a huge bust in win rates, while others like BA have seen a drop, because losing AoC is a huge blow to sang guard.
    Plasma Inceptors are already back up.
    That's literally already happened.

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    Low win rate can be explained by new players or bad internal balance.

    Grey knights aren't exactly a newbie haven so its likely internal balance which means GK only have one or two possible competitive builds, which sucks but the fact remains that they as a faction have placed in GTs since AoO which means they are doing relatively ok compared to others.

    Sadly for you, I have this feeling that GK fall into the category of least supported in terms of Power Armor armies. Thousand Sons, Death Guard and now GK. AoC being taken away was a nerf. The host of free stuff given to generic Marines was a massive buff, but a lot of factions which were relying on AoC to survive (TS/DG) got basically nothing compared to what Marines got so there is now a relatively noticeable power difference.

     Tomsug wrote:
    Semper krumps under the radar

     
       
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    Dudeface wrote:
     Dysartes wrote:
     Tyran wrote:
    I admit I'm always confused when they put Codex Space Marines as a different faction and it is clearly not a congregate of all Marine subfactions.

    Probably because of the different impacts the Super-Doctrines can have?

    Out of interest, how many weeks of sub-40% results for LoV before people will admit they got over-nerfed?


    To quote some posters "I hope they go too far and don't sell to teach GW a lesson for at least a year" was in the pre-nerf thread.

    People saying that, quite frankly, are people not worth listening to.

    I'm going to ask again, though, as someone who doesn't own a single LoV model, nor the 'dex - how many weeks of sub-40% results for LoV before people will admit they got over-nerfed, at least as it pertains to the state of the game with the AoO pack and current dataslate/MFM?

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     Kanluwen wrote:
    This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

    Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

    tneva82 wrote:
    You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
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    Dudeface wrote:
    Breton wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:


    it's not impossible someone who can access and is willing to redesign their models might be able to pilot a top end list,


    Feel free to tell us which ways that happens? A month of people pointing out its not free everywhere, and people still try and float this. So lets hear it. Show us how.

    So we're clear here, you said the free stuff would let people tailor their lists. I said (again) that the freebies didn't really extend to the things you'd tailor lists with, so tell us how they're going to tailor lists for free stuff - and then you said:

    Don't be so obtuse, it doesn't matter if they're free or not,
    So which is it?

    the changes in the meta and the shift of what's "best" changes constantly, some players are capable of keeping pace either via access to endless piles of bits, commission painters or it being their literal job.

    I don't have the lists of the winning factions but it's shown in here they do have more free stuff, by definition. If a gun that was previously overpriced for a unit is now free, they may switch.

    I'm not talking about loading an army full of free gak like in the OP, I mean swapping for example the gun on a hellblaster on a whim due to a points change. Giving sargeants a combi bolter when they wouldn't before. That sort of thing. Small incremental tweaks.
    Hellblaster weapon swaps were already free. It's amazing how often the people railing against the evil Space Marines with their free stuff keep pointing to things that either aren't free or were already "free" that will result in things they don't have the list to prove. Who's being obtuse here, the people who point out the actual costs, or the people who don't bother to look up the before and after prices of Hellblasters, Vanguard Vets and Devastators because they just inherently KNOW the truth. Even when its not.

    Can you prove that adding in free upgrades doesn't help? You act as if every unit is still having baked in price increases, terminators for DA benefit from free upgrades for example and are showing to be an early top list contender.

    Well we could start with the fact that DA Termies always had this extra boost as part of their Chapter Tactics. Then we could swing past the place where I pointed out this is going to operate more like a points drop than cornucopia of free upgrades - and given that the new MFM includes points drop almost everywhere I'd say that's going to have a bigger impact than a few free combiweapons. We could (yet again) swing through the list of units that got the points drops/upgrades - most of which were bad before and did not become good after - landing in a Meh gray area.

    HQ:
    Most characters have fixed load out and got a 5-15 point drop.

    Troops:
    Most of the Troops Units also have a fairly locked in loadout with 1 or two Options - or Had a zero point weapon swap. And all but one got a points direct points drop. The one that didn't - Tacs - got most of their options zeroed. The big winner was Heavy Intercessors with a GIANT drop and free HBs.

    Elites: A lot of chracters got the same 5-15 drop and have few to no options.
    Aggresors - Were probably the big winners - now get free weaponswaps, but I doubt this will make anyone switch. Maybe a Salamander's player who isn't in love with flamers but even then, it's going to be rare.
    Company Vets got screwed with their pants on this time around. They're the big loser.
    Centurion Assaults - Price Drop, Free Swaps, and little point. They're slow, hard to transport, even if you can its a bad idea, not CORE so far behind equally slow but more synergistic and better point for point value Terminators and Aggressors for the same roles.
    Dreads pretty much got points drop - the Firstborns get free gun arm swaps, most of which were minor to free in cost anyway.
    Relic Terminators got a significant price drop. All their options were the same price, and you had to take two (plus one optional). Now all their options are still the same price and you still have to take two but they and their options are cheaper.
    Reivers got a point drop, and freebie movement upgrades. They still aspire to become Meh and still look upon Firstborn Assault Marines with envy.
    Scout Squads are - I think - pretty close to being good. Points drop + free sniper/Camo upgrades could make viable if not decent.
    Terminator (shooty) got points drop, and a zero for their heavy weapon. Their fists were already free trades. I'm not sure the Cyclone was worth 2.5 Assault Cannons anyway and the Homer is a one trick pony gimmick.
    Terminator Assaults were only paying for the Thunder hammer - and 2LC vs THSS have enough give and take to zero out.
    Sternguard Vets - Like Tacs didn't get a price drop (there's a theme here) - but now get free swaps and heavies. Cookie Cutter players will put them in a Pod, as a sacrificial bomb. Its decent but still expensive and wasteful.
    Vanguard Vets - Points drop, still pay for Packs, most of the things you want to spam still cost you points but those too usually got a points drop.
    Veteran Intercessors - got points drop, free Sgt Upgrades and AuxGL's and are still one of the dumbest things in the codex.

    Fast Attack:
    Assault Squad: Like Tacs did not get points drops, but now get free upgrades, and Jump Packs - may actually be better than Meh.
    Attack Bike Squad - Like Tacs did not get points drops, gets free weapon swaps.
    Bike Squad, no points drop, small drop on the Multimelta on the attack bike if/when you take it.
    Inceptors - No Points drop, and they stupidly put the points cost back on the Plasma.
    Invaders - Points drop and free weapon swaps.
    First Born Speeders (assorted)- Like Tacs, no points drop, free weapon swaps.
    Outriders - points drop, still limited to 3 and only 3 so of dubious value - they benefit more from the AOO Det than the price drop.
    Scout Bikes - Like Tacs, no Points drop, free swaps.
    Primaris Speeders: Points drops, no options to pay for even if they did cost - the weapon options are built into the datasheets with no optional options. - but they're interesting at this price point

    Heavy Support.
    Centurion Devs. Price Drop and Free Weapon swaps. Still not CORE meaning a lot of Infantry Points that don't get a reroll bubble unless they stand next to Bobby G where they get the lesser one. Situational Winner - they're interesting but you'd have to build around them as more tank than Infantry.
    Devastator Squads - Price INCREASE, and mostly free weapon swaps.
    Eliminator Squads - Like Tacs, Same PPM, free weapon swaps. 3 Snipers 3 shots is still bad. 3 Lasfusils isn't good, but it isn't bad. Phobos theme, or heavy support for an infiltrating Troop has potential. Still not Good.
    Eradicators - Like Tacs, Same PPM free weapon swaps. The weapon swaps are something of a double-edged sword if the E-Rads move. I didn't upgrade when they weren't free, still probably not now, though they've dropped from my list too because of the points drops allowing something else.
    Firestrike Servo Turrets - No new PPM reduction, free weapon swaps. These guys are the primaris version of Cent Devs and in about the same place (interesting but have to be included with their drawbacks in mind) just even slower.
    Gladiator Tanks (assorted) Price Drop, no significant weapon swaps (the Lancer has Stormbolter, or Basically Storm Bolter Launchers) All the dink and dunk Optional Options are now free.
    Hellbalsters - PPM drop, and as mentioned their weapon swaps were already free. Giving the Sergeant a plasma pistol is also now free.
    Hunter/Stalker - no change. They're the Rock Paper Scissors to aircraft.
    Kratos - too new to change - probably Datasheeted with the upcoming MFM in mind.
    Land Raiders(assorted). No recent PPM change - Optional Options now free.
    Predators (assorted) No PPM change, Sponsons got a price drop.
    Repulsors (assorted) Price Drop, Weapon swaps and addons now free. At the bottom edge of Meh if they're lucky.
    Thunderfire Cannon - No drop, no swap.
    Other Rhino Tank variants (Vindi, Whirlwind) Like Tacs, no points drop, but the optional options and the Launcher swap are now free.

    Dedicated Transports:
    A) Almost all transports are bad.

    Drop Pod - No Drop, weapon swap was already free.
    Impulsor - points drop, and rooftop doodad is now free. Makes it better but I'm not sure if that overcomes Transports Are Bad.
    Land Speeder Storm No Drop, No Swap
    Rhino, No Drop, free extra Storm Bolter.
    Razorback no Drop, free swaps on top. - has potential for a mini armored force depending on local terrain density. Even if you don't use it as a transport non-flying metal boxes can have effective speed issues.
    Rhino - no drop, free extra storm bolter!

    Flyers - No Drop, Free Swaps

    Storm Raven has the most cross chapter potential with the most "freebie" stuff given swaps and an Optional Option, plus the possible return of Terminators - offset by Transports Are Bad, and Gladiators/Redemptors get free AA guns that will rarely be used for AA.

    The DA Jets, and Ravenwing in general have some interesting options open now that may get some looks after everyone gets past the Death Wing. Sadly the AOO Det does not take a Death/Raven Combination Wing into account - and will likely run out of elites or FA whichever you don't choose - which is the whole reason I picked up some Dark Angels way back in 5th or whatever. Still, using the preexisting double det system can make you what you want, just not as smoothly. Deahtwing Command Squads didn't get a direct drop, but they did get free wargear, Deathwing Knights got no drop, and had no options beyond the one turn one trick Watcher gimmick instead of the one turn one trick Homer Gimmick

    That's the list. Most things got a price drop. Many things now get free swaps that will work like a price drop. Most of those things were bad, or the cost of the swap made little sense anyways. Few things got a price drop and free meaningful stuff. Most of these direct and indirect price drops will result in more stuff not necessarily different stuff. In my case it resulted in droppiong some Hellblasters for a couple speeders and tanks- but that was done for variety and shrinking the castle than anything- I could have added a MOF and some Redemptors to grow the castle but I chose not to. Which of those are the Smorgasbord of Free Wargear that's going to revolutionize the meta?

    My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
       
     
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