Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone

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**Tiberias**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
ok, next set of new guy questions:

1) the "sentinel storm" stratagem lets you shoot your sentinel blades pistol shots in the opponents turn, so long as you are in melee. Am i right in saying that this lets you shoot twice in a battle round (once in your turn, once in his)? and is that strat really worth 2CP given the fairly mediocre firepower 3-5 pistol shots can do?

2) I've been looking at the forge world stuff for the custodes. I see what people mean about the telemon being a better dread (though its currently out of stock, so its kinda a moot point at this time). My next question is over the halberd and sword n board dreads that FW do. Personally they seem quite fluffy and reasonably effective for thier points. does anyone use them, or are they just another dead end?

3) the assault-type guardian spear options form FW, any good or a waste of points? I quite like the Adrasite spears but three times the point cost is a steep rise, even if they seem like decent anti-marine weapons.

Anyway, my dirt cheap 500 point starter list:

Shield captain (95) with stentinel blade and Storm shield (17) = 112 pts

Vexilus praetor (85) with guardian spear (5) = 90

3 Custodian guard w. spears (49 each)= 147
3 Custodian guard w spears (49 each) = 147
Total 496 pts.

Seeing as i can build that with just 2 regular custodian guard boxes, I'd say that's easily one of the cheapest 500 point starter armies i have seen. Went with storm shield and sword on the captain so he can damm well stay alive. on the I'm planning to give the shield captain the Sentinel blade relic and have the flag carrier take either the +1 attacks or the -1 to hit standard (leaning towards the latter, cant stabby stabby if i get shot to pieces beforehand!)

planned expansion would be adding a either a FW Contemptor dread or 3 termies, and a trio of bikes, which would likely take me up to 1000 points pretty easily.

is that a hopeless list? ok for causal (the level i plan to play at)? actually someone's tournament list i stumbled upon by accident?

1) Yes, and is it worth it? In fringe cases when you have a big unit of shield guys and really need to finish of a unit. Otherwise probably not.

2) I play the galatus dreadnought (shield and sword) in almost all my games because it is my favorite model. I also play the achillus quite often. Both are not very competitive, but can be good sometimes. If you like the models, play them. The telemon is great all around.

3) I haven't personally tried the melta spears from FW so I can't share experiences. Are they worth the cost....I'm not sure honestly.

Your list is fine, but give your shield captain an axe and give him the eagles eye relic so he gets an 3+ invulnerable save. The list is ok for casual play, just talk to your opponent and know that 500p games are often very skewed an unbalanced.

As for army expansion. You can never go wrong with bikes and terminators. Both are great units.
As for FW dreads, just know that the galatus and achillus are not very competitive right now (might change with the new FW indexes), but if you like the models go for them, they are lovely sculpts. Telemon is great all around as I already mentioned.

Hope that helpes

**iGuy91**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
ok, next set of new guy questions:

1) the "sentinel storm" stratagem lets you shoot your sentinel blades pistol shots in the opponents turn, so long as you are in melee. Am i right in saying that this lets you shoot twice in a battle round (once in your turn, once in his)? and is that strat really worth 2CP given the fairly mediocre firepower 3-5 pistol shots can do?

2) I've been looking at the forge world stuff for the custodes. I see what people mean about the telemon being a better dread (though its currently out of stock, so its kinda a moot point at this time). My next question is over the halberd and sword n board dreads that FW do. Personally they seem quite fluffy and reasonably effective for thier points. does anyone use them, or are they just another dead end?

3) the assault-type guardian spear options form FW, any good or a waste of points? I quite like the Adrasite spears but three times the point cost is a steep rise, even if they seem like decent anti-marine weapons.

Anyway, my dirt cheap 500 point starter list:

Shield captain (95) with stentinel blade and Storm shield (17) = 112 pts

Vexilus praetor (85) with guardian spear (5) = 90

3 Custodian guard w. spears (49 each)= 147
3 Custodian guard w spears (49 each) = 147
Total 496 pts.

Seeing as i can build that with just 2 regular custodian guard boxes, I'd say that's easily one of the cheapest 500 point starter armies i have seen. Went with storm shield and sword on the captain so he can damm well stay alive. on the I'm planning to give the shield captain the Sentinel blade relic and have the flag carrier take either the +1 attacks or the -1 to hit standard (leaning towards the latter, cant stabby stabby if i get shot to pieces beforehand!)

planned expansion would be adding a either a FW Contemptor dread or 3 termies, and a trio of bikes, which would likely take me up to 1000 points pretty easily.

is that a hopeless list? ok for causal (the level i plan to play at)? actually someone's tournament list i stumbled upon by accident?

1. Sentinel Storm is a mess. Pass. They're just bolter shots, and it won't pay off.
2. Telemon is boss. The Contemptors are good, not great, but good. The Achillus is a prime candidate to throw eternal penitent on, and stick it in deep strike. Hits like a truck.
3. Waste of points. Stick to the basic dudes with spears if you want spears.

List: At 500 points, i'd drop the vexilla. You don't need it right now. I'd take the shield captain with a spear (I'd suggest gatekeeper relic, with superior fire patterns, he'll fire 12 shots in rapid fire for 1 cp).
Get at least 1 sword and board in each guard squad. Its alright for now. Your growth ideas sound good.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Is the Achillus flamer now 12" or is it still 8", because if it's 12" a trio of them could out telemon a Telemon. Also, how is the Andrathic Destructor (Plasma cannon) on it stock overcharged at base, with only S5. Booooooo

**tulun**

Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?

**Tiberias**

tulun wrote:
Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?

Well it's a tradeoff. Guard with shield are obviously better at holding objectives, because they are harder to shift due to the 3+ invuln, but sagittarum can actually contribute to shooting in a useful fashion while sitting on objectives.
I think they can be quite useful in holding backfield objectives and plucking a wound or two off something you need shot.

Do they see much play nowadays....right now I don't see them popping up often in armylists.

Thing is, it's really hard to make a definitve judgement unitl we see the new forgeworld indexes. Depending on what they gain in these new rules, they might be really good.

**greyknight12**

tulun wrote:
Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?

I think your options are either Shield guard, or Sag Guard. Spears are only 1 pt cheaper than Sag guard and aren't worth it in my experience.

Shields are some of the best objective holders in the game and are about to get buffed via Space Marine rules for storm shields and I have been using them, however I've been finding that if you stick one on a backfield objective it's 160+ pts of your army that doesn't really do anything, while Sagittarum Guard can shoot most of the board AND have a special "anti-gravis option" with their secondary fire mode. There is a chance that when heavy bolters go to damage 2 that their weapon does as well, but that's pure conjecture at this point.

**Thairne**

I'm pretty new at custodes, so take everything I say here with a grain of salt until one of the big boys sweep in.

1) Yes, it is rather weak - BUT it adds damage to a otherwise very durable and, not that offensive, unit. Shield Guard are there to take objectives. If something numerous tries to swarm them, it MIGHT be worth it.

2) They are solid. 2+/5++/6+++ hitting with 4attacks on 2+ with S14? That is some good anti tank right there. Add in eternal penitent..
The Galatus is hard to shift. Combine an achillus with a telemon and your opponent has a hard choice in front of him.

3) IMO currently, its either Sagittarum Guard or Sword 'n Board.

I dont think guard with spears is currently worth it - like 2 SnB and 1 spear per unit is probably a good alrounder right now.
Sagittarum are the shooty version - consider those.
A praetor is a character, unless you have something to escort him (galatus, mayhaps?) he's gonna get targeted and die quick. And at that pts level, he is not gonna be a good force amplifier.

In the end, you cant go really wrong with custodes - allarus are good, bikes are good, dreads are good and troops are always needed. Also consider HQs for each - an Allarus Terminator and Blingfucker (Shield Captain on bike) is always useful.

**tulun**

greyknight12 wrote:
tulun wrote:
Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?

I think your options are either Shield guard, or Sag Guard. Spears are only 1 pt cheaper than Sag guard and aren't worth it in my experience.

Shields are some of the best objective holders in the game and are about to get buffed via Space Marine rules for storm shields and I have been using them, however I've been finding that if you stick one on a backfield objective it's 160+ pts of your army that doesn't really do anything, while Sagittarum Guard can shoot most of the board AND have a special "anti-gravis option" with their secondary fire mode. There is a chance that when heavy bolters go to damage 2 that their weapon does as well, but that's pure conjecture at this point.

I'm looking into Custodes and was wondering.

I kind of hate the idea of just 3 dudes sitting back and doing nothing -- 160 points is A LOT not contributing. I would be more inclined to do a 1/2 Shield / Spear because at least you're shooting a bit.

But if you do that, you might as well just take Sagitarum guard because their shooting output is a lot better.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Don't forget the spears strat that gives them +1 to wound. Also you could pop avenge the fallen (?) the strat that gives them +1 attack for every model slain that turn, so I forget the math, but for maximum squad, which someone placed highly with in a all infantry list, using 10 man guardian squads and spears, got 5+attacks on his squads after losing 5 to shooting. Thats 5 guys with 7 attacks each at S6 AP2 DD3, and +1 to wound. Pretty disgusting if your opponent doesn't see it coming. Guardians are often overlooked, like the pawns in chess. But they can be deadly if played well.

**xerxeskingofking**

tulun wrote:
greyknight12 wrote:
tulun wrote:
Do Sagittarum Guard have much play, or is it pretty much always strictly better to just use Spear and/or Sword/board Guard squads?

I think your options are either Shield guard, or Sag Guard. Spears are only 1 pt cheaper than Sag guard and aren't worth it in my experience.

Shields are some of the best objective holders in the game and are about to get buffed via Space Marine rules for storm shields and I have been using them, however I've been finding that if you stick one on a backfield objective it's 160+ pts of your army that doesn't really do anything, while Sagittarum Guard can shoot most of the board AND have a special "anti-gravis option" with their secondary fire mode. There is a chance that when heavy bolters go to damage 2 that their weapon does as well, but that's pure conjecture at this point.

I'm looking into Custodes and was wondering.

I kind of hate the idea of just 3 dudes sitting back and doing nothing -- 160 points is A LOT not contributing. I would be more inclined to do a 1/2 Shield / Spear because at least you're shooting a bit.

But if you do that, you might as well just take Sagitarum guard because their shooting output is a lot better.

having read some of the tactics links i got upwind, several suggest using a Sisters of Silence bolter squad (Prosecutors), which basically give you a 5 man sisters of battle squad to park on a rear objective (still with Obsec) for like 50 points, with more shooting than a regular custodes guard unit to boot, plus something that can ignore look out, sir rules when shooting at pyskers to claim that anti-psyker secondary. all in all, it sounds like good investment.

**Audustum**

So, competitively, the prevailing thought seems to be leaving a shooty Telemon to hold a back objective I think.

There are also builds splashing in Tempestus Scions and using them to auto-score Deploy Scramblers for an easy 10 points.

Remember, since most maps are hold 2 for 10, secondaries frequently matter more than primaries (both players will almost always get 40). My advice is to build your list around secondaries, not around primaries. The odd map where it's 3 for 10 is when you can use your bully ObSec units, like Terminators, to actually do something on the primary front.

**tulun**

I bet you the optimal strategy would be for some kind of soup -- whether it's Sisters of Battle or Imperial guard.

They provide stuff the army doesn't (cheap bodies, awesome abilities, maybe even indirect fire if you go with Guard).

I think most people wanna approach a pure army first, because that's probably what you're gonna play unless you're going to a serious tournament.

**xerxeskingofking**

ok, so a little more tweaking (not going to be buying anything for this just yet, maybe in november, so we will see if i change my tune then

500 point custodes army:
Warlord trait: Superior Creation
Relic: Gatekeeper
Shield captain (95) with guardian spear (gatekeeper relic) (5) = 100 pts PL 6
3 Custodian guard w. spears (49 each) = 147 PL 8
5 Custodian guard w spears (49 each) = 245 PL 13
Total 492 pts. PL 27

1000 point list
Warlord trait: Superior Creation
Relic: Gatekeeper
Shield captain (95) with guardian spear (gatekeeper relic) (5) = 100 pts PL 6

Vexilus praetor (85) with guardian spear (5), Vexilla Magnifica = 90 pts PL 6

3 Custodian guard w. spears (49 each) = 147 pts PL 8
5 Custodian guard w spears (49 each) = 245 pts PL 13

3 Vertus jetbikes (95 each) = 285 pts PL 15

Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought (130) = 130 pts PL 8

Total= 997 points PL 56

the jetbikes will likely be run with missiles to give me some ranged AT weaponry. the Contemptor-Achillus gets in simply because its a cool looking model that happens to just perfectly fit into the points left. The standard bearer will sneak in behind the 5 man squad to keep it alive and the cap and other squad go off to catch something else.

I notice that the Power Level ratings for these units seem a little high for their points. I thought a 1,000 point list was supposed to be about PL 50 or so?

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

So please correct me Sterling, but SoS don't get ObSec, unless I am mistaken. A lot of videos have people begging for sisters to become troops JUST to be allowed ObSec.

They are elites, and do not share the Custodes Keyword, so I do not believe they get the great Custodes obsec, unfortunately....

**Sterling191**

Sisters of Silence are explicitly precluded from gaining any Custodian detachment abilities. That includes Sworn Guardians.

Changing them to Troops would not alter that, as even as Troops they would still be precluded from getting Sworn Guardians, and thus not be ObSec.

**xerxeskingofking**

Oh.

ooh well, still, 50 pts unit to sit on back objective vs 150-160 point unit to do the same job. still have a place.

**greyknight12**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
Oh.

ooh well, still, 50 pts unit to sit on back objective vs 150-160 point unit to do the same job. still have a place.

Biggest issue is a lack of Elite slots in Patrol detachments.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Yeah, Canhammer did a thing on them a while back, saying how they would be crucial to the success of Custodes, (Along with the Ares) but that they are just front line meat shields, not objective campers. In their current state. I really hope that will change, they are just beautiful models, some of my favorite, and I'd like to be able to use them one day....

**dicerage**

KGYM wrote:
What do you mean? WWSWF is for individual models from the start.

Thanks. For some reason I was completely convinced that it was unit, not model.

**xerxeskingofking**

while surfing youtube i came across this video discussing the changes to Codex: Space marines.

what caught my attention was the part at 3:30 where they said that the Storm Shield was changing form a 3++ to a 4++ and +1 to regular saves. seeing as how any changes to SM kit will propagate out to everyone else with the same equipment, this change would affect our sword & board units. given that we already have +2 saves, unless the storm shield lets us ignore a point of AP value, this would be a strict nerf to our troops. i've not seen this mentioned before (then again, that might just be me not paying attention).

so, what do people think of this? it seems like a direct reduction of our sword & board troops to sit on objectives and hold them, unless i am missing something important.

**slave.entity**

Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.

**xerxeskingofking**

slave.entity wrote:
Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.

ok, hang on a second.

I havent got the codex for these guys yet (on my payday buy list). are you saying that the "aegis of the Emperor" 5++ is actually 4++ in battle forged Custodes detachments?

**slave.entity**

Yes. Custodes have a 4++ by default thanks to Aegis + Emperor's Chosen. This applies to all infantry and bikers.

**xerxeskingofking**

....i didnt realise that. bloody hell, thats a hell of a thing to overlook.

so, storm shields are currently 2++? or is their a FAQ that limits ++ saves to 3++ at best?

**Sterling191**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
....i didnt realise that. bloody hell, thats a hell of a thing to overlook.

so, storm shields are currently 2++? or is their a FAQ that limits ++ saves to 3++ at best?

The Emperor's Chosen caps at 3++. The primary benefit is that any AP1 weapon will plink off of a 2+ armor save, while AP2+ weapons will hit the invuln.

**Audustum**

slave.entity wrote:
Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.

It doesn't improve the save characteristic. It just gives +1 to the roll. Effectively, it let's us ignore AP-1 permanently (because AP is just a minus to the roll). GW specifically listed our shields as being affected so decent odds we get it in October I'd say.

It's a straight buff all around. We went into details 2-3 pages back.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

I just hope the Power sword changes hit our swords, +1S 3AP D2. That alone would make a big buff to us. I wonder what changes they could make to the miseracordia to buff it's usefulness. Right now it's just like a chain sword that costs a few points and can be used with other melee weapons. What if they made them ap4 d1.just to set them apart from chain swords somehow?

**Audustum**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I just hope the Power sword changes hit our swords, +1S 3AP D2. That alone would make a big buff to us. I wonder what changes they could make to the miseracordia to buff it's usefulness. Right now it's just like a chain sword that costs a few points and can be used with other melee weapons. What if they made them ap4 d1.just to set them apart from chain swords somehow?

Then having AP at all set them apart. I guess with SM having AP on theirs now a change is in order.

I'd say make them an alt weapon that can do 1D3 additional attack. That way, Spears/axes/Sag could go horde mode with it

**slave.entity**

Audustum wrote:
slave.entity wrote:
Emperor's Chosen would bring them back to 3++ so it'd be a strict buff, bringing them to 1+/3++. But apparently GW mentioned that the new storm shields won't be immediately ported to everything outside SM so it could still change.

It doesn't improve the save characteristic. It just gives +1 to the roll. Effectively, it let's us ignore AP-1 permanently (because AP is just a minus to the roll). GW specifically listed our shields as being affected so decent odds we get it in October I'd say.

It's a straight buff all around. We went into details 2-3 pages back.

The codex entry says it improves the save characteristic. Was it FAQ'd?

EDIT: Oh I see you're referring to the new storm shields, not the Custodes trait. Yes, I'm aware of what the new storm shields do. It's not technically a 1+ sv but it's close enough to call it that. 1s always fail so there is no danger of ambiguity.

**Sterling191**

Audustum wrote:

I'd say make them an alt weapon that can do 1D3 additional attack. That way, Spears/axes/Sag could go horde mode with it

If you restrict the Mizzy attacks, its a net nerf for Sags. The Mizzy *is* their primary melee weapon, and reducing them to punches would be problematic.