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Hey guys, 2 questions that came up at yesterday's tournament at my LGS and couldn't find anything with the search tool at the forum

1) Can you get cover saves from Vector Strikes? I'd say no because the model is supposedly hitting the enemy model, anyway we allowed covers yesterday as if it was a shooting attack determined from the ending position of the FMC

2) When doing vector strikes to a vehicle which facing do you roll against? The back one assuming is considered a CC hit by the flyer? or the facing after the FMC finished his movement?

Bonus question that i remembered on the go

3) Can FMC shoot 360° while swooping since they don't have facing and are treated as any other MC which treat the LoS as infantry which would't matter if they want to shoot something behind them? I'd say that he can only shoot stuff in front of it but since I couldn't find any rule to back this up we had to allow it (a Flying tyrant passed over a LR did vector strikes and then shoot at it while being completely behind it)

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Hey guys, 2 questions that came up at yesterday's tournament at my LGS and couldn't find anything with the search tool at the forum

1) Can you get cover saves from Vector Strikes? I'd say no because the model is supposedly hitting the enemy model, anyway we allowed covers yesterday as if it was a shooting attack determined from the ending position of the FMC

Covered in the rules - there's nothing denying a cover save, so you get one.

2) When doing vector strikes to a vehicle which facing do you roll against? The back one assuming is considered a CC hit by the flyer? of the facing after the FMC finished his movement?

Covered in the Vector Strike rules.

3) Can FMC shoot 360° while swooping since they don't have facing and are treated as any other MC which treat the LoS as infantry which would't matter if they want to shoot something behind them? I'd say that he can only shoot stuff in front of it but since I couldn't find any rule to back this up we had to allow it (a Flying tyrant passed over a LR did vector strikes and then shoot at it while being completely behind it)

Covered in the FMC rules.

1) Yes if they're eligible, remember you do Vector strikes when that model finishes it's move. So it should come from where it ends.

2) PG 43 BGB

3) PG 49 BGB under Swooping Hunters

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Hey guys, 2 questions that came up at yesterday's tournament at my LGS and couldn't find anything with the search tool at the forum

3) Can FMC shoot 360° while swooping since they don't have facing and are treated as any other MC which treat the LoS as infantry which would't matter if they want to shoot something behind them? I'd say that he can only shoot stuff in front of it but since I couldn't find any rule to back this up we had to allow it (a Flying tyrant passed over a LR did vector strikes and then shoot at it while being completely behind it)

Covered in the FMC rules.

Guess that's a yes

If vector striking from a Heldrake thing, and it went off the board in the movement phase would vector strike still happen? assumed it would but as this is here thought I would ask

MarkyMark wrote:
If vector striking from a Heldrake thing, and it went off the board in the movement phase would vector strike still happen? assumed it would but as this is here thought I would ask

Unless there's a special rule I'd say no. Mainly because at that point the model is out of sight. Can't wound kinda deal

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
If vector striking from a Heldrake thing, and it went off the board in the movement phase would vector strike still happen? assumed it would but as this is here thought I would ask

Unless there's a special rule I'd say no. Mainly because at that point the model is out of sight. Can't wound kinda deal

If someone vector strikes my guys and flys off board in the same movement, I'd give them the vector strike since the act of flying over a unit is the requirement of the attack.

 Goat wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
If vector striking from a Heldrake thing, and it went off the board in the movement phase would vector strike still happen? assumed it would but as this is here thought I would ask

Unless there's a special rule I'd say no. Mainly because at that point the model is out of sight. Can't wound kinda deal

If someone vector strikes my guys and flys off board in the same movement, I'd give them the vector strike since the act of flying over a unit is the requirement of the attack.

i'd go along with this tbh. Maybe thats' coz i only play in friendly games though.

 Goat wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
If vector striking from a Heldrake thing, and it went off the board in the movement phase would vector strike still happen? assumed it would but as this is here thought I would ask

Unless there's a special rule I'd say no. Mainly because at that point the model is out of sight. Can't wound kinda deal

If someone vector strikes my guys and flys off board in the same movement, I'd give them the vector strike since the act of flying over a unit is the requirement of the attack.

"At the end of the movement phase, nominate" pg 43 BGB

When you end your move, you're off the board.

That's like shooting from reserves, not happening.

I was thinking along the same lines JDJames, how can you roll dice for something not on the board, and I didnt relise it was nominated at the end of the movement phase but I did let him do it as I do see the point that the model had moved over my tank, my tank was right on the edge of the board

There is nothing in the VS rules saying the shots come from the FMC after it has landed. Thus while you may be eligible for cover saves, there are no rules to determine if you are 'obscured' or not. (aside from Area T)

Similarly, the rules *do* tell you how to assign the attacks, and say nothing to requite the model still being on the board. This is not 'shooting' thus that comparison does not apply.

The only requirement is that you flew over the unit....as long as you were 'on the board' when you flew over that unit, you are fine.

coredump wrote:
There is nothing in the VS rules saying the shots come from the FMC after it has landed. Thus while you may be eligible for cover saves, there are no rules to determine if you are 'obscured' or not. (aside from Area T)

Similarly, the rules *do* tell you how to assign the attacks, and say nothing to requite the model still being on the board. This is not 'shooting' thus that comparison does not apply.

The only requirement is that you flew over the unit....as long as you were 'on the board' when you flew over that unit, you are fine.

Read it again, "at the end of it's movement phase, nominate" yada yada

Cover saves apply, so it's not close combat. When you go to wound you can't because you can't see the model.

Ah LOS, never thought of that, it would seem to be a no then

Vector strike is poorly worded. If the FMC lands out of LOS then wounds would be lost. Also is cover granted based on the position of the FMC? If the unit is in the open and the FMC lands behind a forest, does the unit get a cover save because LOS goes through the forest.

Fragile wrote:
Vector strike is poorly worded. If the FMC lands out of LOS then wounds would be lost. Also is cover granted based on the position of the FMC? If the unit is in the open and the FMC lands behind a forest, does the unit get a cover save because LOS goes through the forest.

Yes, because it's done when it finishes it's movement.
Cover is granted by new position as well, as are where models are removed from.
If they're obscured or w/e they need to be in order to get a save than yes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not poorly worded, people just try to resolve VS before the unit finishes it's movement and that causes issues.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Vector strike is poorly worded. If the FMC lands out of LOS then wounds would be lost. Also is cover granted based on the position of the FMC? If the unit is in the open and the FMC lands behind a forest, does the unit get a cover save because LOS goes through the forest.

Yes, because it's done when it finishes it's movement.
Cover is granted by new position as well, as are where models are removed from.
If they're obscured or w/e they need to be in order to get a save than yes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not poorly worded, people just try to resolve VS before the unit finishes it's movement and that causes issues.

It is poorly worded, because all of these types of questions fall into what should be expected to be asked by any decent Beta Tester. And if you know it is going to be asked, then you should address it in the rule. As far as RAW goes, its pretty simple to work out, but it doesnt make sense, which causes hundreds of questions about it.

Fragile wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Vector strike is poorly worded. If the FMC lands out of LOS then wounds would be lost. Also is cover granted based on the position of the FMC? If the unit is in the open and the FMC lands behind a forest, does the unit get a cover save because LOS goes through the forest.

Yes, because it's done when it finishes it's movement.
Cover is granted by new position as well, as are where models are removed from.
If they're obscured or w/e they need to be in order to get a save than yes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not poorly worded, people just try to resolve VS before the unit finishes it's movement and that causes issues.

It is poorly worded, because all of these types of questions fall into what should be expected to be asked by any decent Beta Tester. And if you know it is going to be asked, then you should address it in the rule. As far as RAW goes, its pretty simple to work out, but it doesnt make sense, which causes hundreds of questions about it.

What doesnt make sense?

That you have to draw LOS from where you end your movement?
That's because you don't vector strike til end of your movement.

How do units take cover?
you draw LOS from the model

You only need LOS from a firing model in order to allocate wounds, so that isnt an issue

Similarly there is no firing model, so no way to determine cover saves - just area terrain, KFF etc would apply

Worth noting, "A model that made a VS counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase. However any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of VS." pg 43 BGB

Seems to imply it has fired a weapon albeit in the shooting phase

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Worth noting, "A model that made a VS counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase. However any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of VS." pg 43 BGB

Seems to imply it has fired a weapon albeit in the shooting phase

The bold is exactly what my point was. Although really its more in general than just his USR.

Fragile wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Worth noting, "A model that made a VS counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase. However any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of VS." pg 43 BGB

Seems to imply it has fired a weapon albeit in the shooting phase

The bold is exactly what my point was. Although really its more in general than just his USR.

Hmm maybe I need to read sweep attacks?

That would be about the same thing eh?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Worth noting, "A model that made a VS counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase. However any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of VS." pg 43 BGB

Seems to imply it has fired a weapon albeit in the shooting phase

So basically, either do your two shooting attacks in the shooting phase, or perform a vector strike and one shooting attack. It does not imply that the vector strike is a shooting style attack at all.

Tactically flexible...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Worth noting, "A model that made a VS counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase. However any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of VS." pg 43 BGB

Seems to imply it has fired a weapon albeit in the shooting phase

So basically, either do your two shooting attacks in the shooting phase, or perform a vector strike and one shooting attack. It does not imply that the vector strike is a shooting style attack at all.

Tactically flexible...

If only it didn't say counts as fired one weapon.

Wow, So the concensus is that the heldrake can't vector strike because by flying over a model in the movement phase said model is now behind the heldrake which as a vehicle doesn't have 360deg LOS?

Wow. You've either given me a stroke, or won all the internets ever. Congradulations are in order either way Dakka!

clever handle wrote:
Wow, So the concensus is that the heldrake can't vector strike because by flying over a model in the movement phase said model is now behind the heldrake which as a vehicle doesn't have 360deg LOS?

Wow. You've either given me a stroke, or won all the internets ever. Congradulations are in order either way Dakka!

That's a valid point, and possibly why I'm so adamant on my stance. I've only been using it with FMC's, so it never came up.
Now if you'd actually like to add something useful, rules citation, raw vs rai

VS is not a shooting attack. It does restrict the FMCs to firing 1 less weapon during their shooting phase.

It is not a shooting attack, and therefore there's no reason to follow the Out of Sight rules.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

clever handle wrote:
Wow, So the concensus is that the heldrake can't vector strike because by flying over a model in the movement phase said model is now behind the heldrake which as a vehicle doesn't have 360deg LOS?

Wow. You've either given me a stroke, or won all the internets ever. Congradulations are in order either way Dakka!

That's a valid point, and possibly why I'm so adamant on my stance. I've only been using it with FMC's, so it never came up.
Now if you'd actually like to add something useful, rules citation, raw vs rai

Ok. RAI, you don't need LOS to vector strike anything because the Heldrake has LOS to nothing he flew over & he has a special rule that specifically allows him to perform a VS attack. At no point does it specifically mention that the Heldrake has LOS to anything he has passed over and without that specific ruling this interpretation offered by the Dakka forum users means he CANNOT use his special ability. Ergo my RAI that LOS is not required to perform a vector strike attack.

Further to the RAI argument, since a FMC / Flyer MUST travel in a straight line while swooping / zooming we can reasonably draw a line between where it began its movement and where it left the board.

clever handle wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

clever handle wrote:
Wow, So the concensus is that the heldrake can't vector strike because by flying over a model in the movement phase said model is now behind the heldrake which as a vehicle doesn't have 360deg LOS?

Wow. You've either given me a stroke, or won all the internets ever. Congradulations are in order either way Dakka!

That's a valid point, and possibly why I'm so adamant on my stance. I've only been using it with FMC's, so it never came up.
Now if you'd actually like to add something useful, rules citation, raw vs rai

Ok. RAI, you don't need LOS to vector strike anything because the Heldrake has LOS to nothing he flew over & he has a special rule that specifically allows him to perform a VS attack. At no point does it specifically mention that the Heldrake has LOS to anything he has passed over and without that specific ruling this interpretation offered by the Dakka forum users means he CANNOT use his special ability. Ergo my RAI that LOS is not required to perform a vector strike attack.

Further to the RAI argument, since a FMC / Flyer MUST travel in a straight line while swooping / zooming we can reasonably draw a line between where it began its movement and where it left the board.

How do we allocate wounds for VS?
I agree I was terribly mistaken at first, I now see I was using rules for shooting to fill in the blanks.

However I don't believe a FMC/Flyer may VS after going off the board.
Is there any precedence for something off the board affecting things on the board in this manner?

I already know the kind of flak I get for this but...

Imhotek's Lightning from Lord of the Storm.

That's the closest thing I can think of.