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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Modifying vehicle strats to not affect Ironstriders would be the GW way of doing things - rules on top of rules to fix rules.

Easier just to errata 'Core' away from them.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Maybe a scaling cost per ranger or vanguard? 5 man = 8 points. 6-10 = 9 points, 11+ = 22 points.

I think that most of the problems with AdMech lie in the Lucius buffs, not the units themselves. Moderately nerfing Lucius and maybe adding a scaling CP cost to the offensive troop strats would go a long way toward evening them out without making them bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 16:43:23


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CO

We all know GW doesn't know what "proportionate" means and we're about to get nerfed into the ground, lol

5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Bluntly, what exactly did they expect from allowing 20 model squads and removing the ability for 10 model squads to double or triple up on Special Weapons?

If Plasma was such a frigging problem, they could have locked it onto Vanguard only.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Modifying vehicle strats to not affect Ironstriders would be the GW way of doing things - rules on top of rules to fix rules.

Easier just to errata 'Core' away from them.


I think taking core away from ironstriders is a viable solution but that is a serious nerf. They could give them a 5-10 point increase as they did to drukhari raiders. I think a 20 point increase to the logi order will also work basically the Chief Apothecary treatment. Enriched Rounds is our transhuman stratagem every army has/deserves a stratagem where you just are like damn that's strong, so I don't see them doing anything to it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 20:42:55


   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/rjbd0JE30hNT8ibP.pdf
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune





Main Points:

Lucius saves boost, does not stack with light cover.

Acquisition Stratagem can only be used once per game.

Enriched Rounds goes to a 5+, and costs 2CP for a unit of 11+

Galvanic Volley Fire Strat goes to Heavy 3 instead of RF2

Ironstriders & Dragoons lose CORE.

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Those seem to be reasonable changes that still give a boost but not to the levels that were causing problems before. +50% output instead of 100% for the Galvanic Volley Fire, Enriched Rounds go down 33% and up in CP...

I'm pretty impressed, those seem to be very reasonable.
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Dragoons losing core is pretty horrible, all the rest is kind of on par. Dragoons now benefit from nothing but don't do enough in the first place to warrant their points.

I'm pretty sure Lucius still comes out on top even without also benefiting from cover. We're still talking 2-3+ saves on everything.

Balistarii not being core at least brings our other anti armour into the light a little. Though they're still dead cheap by comparison.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Ok, so yeah, lost Core. Thought as much.

Instantly invalidates this video sadly. I guess AT will need to redo it.

Funny that I just got two of these things in the mail.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 13:14:07


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Just started building up an AM army and of course stuff got nerfed so kinda sucks as I just bought a bunch of models :( Anyway, I bought 3 of the getting started boxes last year and am plowing through them now. I'm considering making a Skitarii Veteran Cohort and am leaning heavily to making all of my getting started bodies into vanguards over rangers. What's the general consensus about Skitarii Veteran Cohort in general? I also ordered 5 ironstriders on ebay yesterday :( Still competitive just not broken?
   
Made in gb
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 necron99 wrote:
Just started building up an AM army and of course stuff got nerfed so kinda sucks as I just bought a bunch of models :( Anyway, I bought 3 of the getting started boxes last year and am plowing through them now. I'm considering making a Skitarii Veteran Cohort and am leaning heavily to making all of my getting started bodies into vanguards over rangers. What's the general consensus about Skitarii Veteran Cohort in general? I also ordered 5 ironstriders on ebay yesterday :( Still competitive just not broken?


Everything is still good, it's just now being severely held back from greatness. We lost a whole bunch of utility on our anti-armour which was the reasons we werent taking the other anti-armour options. Now have nothing to buff any anti-tank weapons. Engineers are a superficial buff we dont really need when a dogma can replace them in a turn where it counts the most and i'm not about to spend points on something to give one single model +1 to hit for the same reason we didn't take datasmiths when a stratagem replaces them.

We didn't really get hit too hard, but other than Fusilaves taking any of our vehicles now just feels a bit 'meh' Balistarii are still good but they're a bit of a blunt force object rather than a tool with options.

I dont think i'd take a squad of 20 vanguard now, but I would take 20 rangers now we get 50% more shots at full range, Rangers actually came out of it better than they went in imo lol.
   
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Nebraska, USA

tbh the only things that got nerfed severely severely needed it.
The one exception being Dragoons imo.

Admech are still lethal, just not comically lethal.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Northumberland

So are rangers and vanguard back to being about even in terms of use on the battlefield? Worth taking both as 10 man squads?

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
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Bath

 Vineheart01 wrote:
tbh the only things that got nerfed severely severely needed it.
The one exception being Dragoons imo.

Admech are still lethal, just not comically lethal.


yhea, i feel like dragoons were collateral for the nerfs to iornstriders, which is a shame. I quite like the model, but they suffer so much form being the alt build of what is still one of our best units.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
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Nebraska, USA

Yeah, i need to review what still affects them since i have 4 of them and i love the models so i insist on using them.
But even i wont use a model thats total dead weight. Same reason my killakanz have a thick layer of dust on them.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
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Mira Mesa

Good changes. Yeah, that brings up the relative value of Kataphrons and the Heavy Support slots. Ironstriders are still probably the most efficient output, but at least Dunecrawlers have an argument for durability now. My list hasn't changed at all.

   
Made in de
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





Engineseer helps out with dense cover though, and I just like having a character sit back and then charge furiously when some deepstrike or fast units inevitably want to gain ground and close objectives
   
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I think you guys are too sanguine about this nerf. It was pretty brutal. They nerfed everything that stands out in this army.

Keep in mind that Sisters and Drukhari are still landslide win ratio armies, and they haven't been touched.

The Acquisition nerf was the hardest and least expected change. Adding 1 to CP, sure, I could see that being fair. Capping it at 1? That means we cannot rely on blobs as a firebase anymore. (My guess is that we will see units of 10 in Drills from now on.)

I think Lucius is now a supporting Forgeworld now. There's no way to buff any of its firebase units.

Mars and Metalica probably are the best Forge Worlds now because Chickens losing Core doesn't matter as much; Mars run 6 of them solo anyway, and Metalica lets them advance and shoot without problems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 19:12:29


 
   
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CO

I think you're right, Suzuteo, I don't think people are really understanding all of the implications from these nerfs just yet. They may seem fine all on their own. But combined, it is pretty hard. I'm kind of in awe of how much negative outcry there was over AdMech when DEldar are still on top and Sisters are right there with them. I find it odd when AdMech definitely have clear weaknesses and require very intellectual play to make the most of their strengths...

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Right. I think the only people who don't think this is a kick to the crotch plate are the people who don't actually build their lists around fundamental math.

Take Enriched Rounds by way of example. People forget that we get 6+ autowounds already with AdMech. We're paying 1 CP to go to 4+ autowounds, which is balanced by the 0 AP on the base guns. Now they want us to pay 2 CP to go to 5+ autowounds?? Not viable at all. No reason to take Vanguard as anything but MSUs now.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CO

EXACTLY. We had 3 Strats which were army defining. Now you're just going to see 1 blob of 20 Rangers in comp lists thanks to the nerf to enriched rounds + acquisition.

We have fairly poor morale, especially considering 20 man units. With essentially only 2 morale negating strats now, I seriously doubt we'll see more than 2 large squads anymore.

Then they had the gall to not update the CP costs to volley fire for small units, which is annoying for my crusade games since I don't play hardcore lists.

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Cog in the Machine




Crusade lists have it relatively easy. You can still get a 20 man Vanguard blob free Enriched Rounds every round using the weapons upgrade and a couple of Archeotech pieces.

Also, take a couple tech-priests with Holy Orders - you get the CP cost reduction on strats and pay for the Holy Order upgrade with RP, not CP, so you come out ahead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 21:13:13


 
   
Made in de
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Careful, on any other platform you will get downvoted to hell and beyond. I agree so much though. Even just stating that other autowound strats are now straight up better ( they are mostly on weapons with higher ap and D, and work against vehicles) will get responses like "Id even pay 3 cp for it and it will still be busted" Some just dont understand basic maths. The rangers stratagem too, was basically double shoot ( which plenty units have), but with the twist that you have to be within half range but ignoring the movement penalty.

GW also promoted core as something to build more flavorful armies, with the example that a captain shouldnt be able to inspire a tank. And then we cant do that with ironstriders, which are basically just big cavalry units with a skitarii on top.

I think its weird when most things could have been simple points increases, but apparently GW wants Admech to be a horde faction since 8th, which is just a weird concept when you have the combination of cybernetics transhumanism and a tech-monopoly hoarding the best stuff.

The lucius change was great, enriched rounds could have been a simple 1/2 cp, same change should have been made for rangers
   
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I definitely think that the take that Vanguard are now bad and enriched rounds is now unusable is really silly, a 20 man squad now pays 2cp to get 20 auto wounds, and still has 40 other shots to resolve, that is Quite Strong still, for sure. All the other nerfs are completely reasonable, I personally still think this faq didn't hit us hard enough, skitarii should not be 8ppm, infiltrators shouldnt be 17, etc etc
   
Made in us
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Just Reddit. But most of the people on WarhammerCompetitive talking about AdMech don't really play AdMech as their main army. They don't spend hours every week thinking of how to wring more efficiency out of their lists.

This was a gut punch. We're basically starting over in 9E because these changes totally hollow out the core of existing armies. The people saying "this is fine" have not caught on to that yet, but give it a day or two, and people will realize how much we've lost.

In any case, wondering if I want a Mars Brigade or a Mars Patrol and Outrider now. Wrath of Mars spam is basically replacing Enriched Rounds. Rangers, Raiders, Infiltrators backed by 3x1 Dunecrawlers (or Ferrumites?) and 4x2 Las Ironstriders.

Gores wrote:
I definitely think that the take that Vanguard are now bad and enriched rounds is now unusable is really silly, a 20 man squad now pays 2cp to get 20 auto wounds, and still has 40 other shots to resolve, that is Quite Strong still, for sure. All the other nerfs are completely reasonable, I personally still think this faq didn't hit us hard enough, skitarii should not be 8ppm, infiltrators shouldnt be 17, etc etc

I definitely think you need to do your math.

If you don't spend the 2 CP, you still get 10 autowounds. But why bring 20-man units at all if you're not going to use the stratagem? 4x5 is much more durable and performs just as well. Especially in a faction like Mars that relies more on the dogma to confer armywide buffs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 21:29:20


 
   
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 Suzuteo wrote:
Right. I think the only people who don't think this is a kick to the crotch plate are the people who don't actually build their lists around fundamental math.

Take Enriched Rounds by way of example. People forget that we get 6+ autowounds already with AdMech. We're paying 1 CP to go to 4+ autowounds, which is balanced by the 0 AP on the base guns. Now they want us to pay 2 CP to go to 5+ autowounds?? Not viable at all. No reason to take Vanguard as anything but MSUs now.


Stopped reading right here, enough with jokes
   
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Gores wrote:
I definitely think that the take that Vanguard are now bad and enriched rounds is now unusable is really silly, a 20 man squad now pays 2cp to get 20 auto wounds, and still has 40 other shots to resolve, that is Quite Strong still, for sure. All the other nerfs are completely reasonable, I personally still think this faq didn't hit us hard enough, skitarii should not be 8ppm, infiltrators shouldnt be 17, etc etc

I definitely think you need to do your math.

If you don't spend the 2 CP, you still get 10 autowounds. But why bring 20-man units at all if you're not going to use the stratagem? 4x5 is much more durable and performs just as well. Especially in a faction like Mars that relies more on the dogma to confer armywide buffs.


Sure, if you don't factor in any other buffs like only paying 5 points to ignore cover on 20 dudes in one squad of 20 instead of 20 points to ignore cover on 4 squads of 5, or the manipulus buff which is still incredibly powerful on 20 mans, or ignoring depreciation, or any of the other buffs we can put on 20 guys. Doubling the amount of auto wounds you get for 2cp is completely fair, haha

Edit: no idea why i can't get this to quote properly!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 21:39:41


 
   
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KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Suzuteo wrote:
We're paying 1 CP to go to 4+ autowounds, which is balanced by the 0 AP on the base guns. Now they want us to pay 2 CP to go to 5+ autowounds?? Not viable at all. No reason to take Vanguard as anything but MSUs now.


Stopped reading right here, enough with jokes

1/2 CP for 4+ autowound in 1-9 and 10+ units would have been fair. Or 1 CP for 5+ autowound. It's because the Vanguard already have 6+ autowound built in. The math looks poor even in 20-man units. 7 additional saves at AP1 is like 2 more damage against a weaker target.

Gores wrote:
Sure, if you don't factor in any other buffs like only paying 5 points to ignore cover on 20 dudes in one squad of 20 instead of 20 points to ignore cover on 4 squads of 5, or the manipulus buff which is still incredibly powerful on 20 mans, or ignoring depreciation, or any of the other buffs we can put on 20 guys. Doubling the amount of auto wounds you get for 2cp is completely fair, haha

Edit: no idea why i can't get this to quote properly!

Unless you are Metalica and really cannot afford the slots, I cannot imagine running 20 Vanguard at all at this point. Actually looking at 10-man units with a Plasma Caliver and Arc Rifle and MSUs with just a Plasma Caliver right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking of how to play Mars in the post-nerf era:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1469

HQ - 150
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Logi (35), Raiment of the Technomartyr (-1 CP)
Skitarii Marshal - Warlord: Firepoint Telemetry Cache, Exemplar's Eternity

Troop - 590
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard

Elite - 170
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad

Fast Attack - 299
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon

Flyer - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Mars Outrider Detachment - 530 (-3 CP)

HQ - 80
Technoarchaeologist - Artisans (25)

Fast Attack - 450
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon
1x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon

Total: 1999 points
8 CP

Solo Las Chickens seem to be the best way around the loss of Core. Benediction and the Mars rerolls pretty must obviate the need for Exemplar, and Canticles don't have a Core requirement, so you can have that turn one Shroudpsalm and Bulwark. On the plus side, you have a lot more freedom of movement here as well. On the downside, you do have to pay 3 CP for the Outrider.

Not going Veterans because I don't think I can afford it with how tight points and CP are. So Vanguard blobs are out. Focusing on Rangers and Raiders for pregame moves. They are also good Wrath spam targets.
Fusilaves for anti-hoard, Infiltrators for scout deploy and grabbing objectives early.

Questions:
1. Can Benediction and the Mars rerolls be used consecutively? As in, can I reroll a hit reroll?
2. What does everyone think is the best HQ mix? I went with a Manipulus and two Marshals, but maybe a Technoarchaeologist with Artisans makes more sense? EDIT: I gave it some thought, and yeah, probably better. Updated the list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 01:20:15


 
   
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Mira Mesa

You can never re-roll a re-roll for any reason. I don't think you need to go solo-chickens. With the built in re-roll, Benediction, and 2+ doctrina, squads of 2 will have enough re-roll for both. I agree that Manip, Techno, and Marshall is probably the right mix. Maybe you take a second Manip instead of the Techno by preference.

I think your proposed list can at least save a CP by combining the Chickens and going to a second Patrol. I want to figure out some way to make the slots fit to save more CP, but you are just really cramped on fast attack slots.

You should also consider going with Skitarii Veterans, not for the buffs to the infantry, but for access to their strategems and effects. Getting extra turns of your chosen doctrina, or mixing them, is extremely clutch (not to mention surprise Advance and Charge on turns with your extra D6 drop the lowest canticle).

   
 
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