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2021/08/06 00:23:36
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
It's from the Warzone Charadon Act 1: Book of Rust supplement for Metalica. The stratagem Knights of the Iron Cog lets Forgeworld Metalica give House Raven Knights Canticles for 1 CP (and Skitarii keep their Doctrinas too). That's the 3 CP I spent at the top of the Super Heavy Detachment. So yeah, not only do we keep our buffs, those Knights are running around with Benediction of the Omnissiah re-rolling their whole Thermal Lance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 00:36:06
I've been re-inspired to work on my AdMech, so I got in two simulator games at 2k with my new vehicle skew list. The first game I ran this previously posted one with the Ironstriders.[spoiler]Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
I went up against an Iron Hands list with some commanders, 20 troops, 10 Bladeguard, 6 Eradicators, a Leviathan and 2 Redemptors. The first thing I noticed was I had a hard time finding targets for the Ironstriders. They're a tiny bit better against MEQ than the Phosphor Crawlers, and a tiny bit worse against T7 3+ than the Warglaives, but I already had enough of each to cover those targets. They're also the weak link in defensive profiles. They just didn't click for me. Meanwhile, I've been playing these same 5 Rangers in my local Crusade league for a couple months now and I can't get them to do much, let alone work as ObSec.
Anyway, the game was a little brutal. I got first turn, so the Raiders moved 30" (+3"M doctrina applies to pregame move) and had their choice of charging anything that survived my shooting phase. As usual, the Fusilaves moved 50", the Crusader moved 20" (Flanking Maneuver), the Warglaives and Ironstriders moved ~18", the Dunecrawlers and Infiltrators moved 11"; I had my pick of targets, so I killed the Leviathan and Redemptors. He started his turn 1 with about 1200pts, a third of which were stuck in combat with Raiders, Infiltrators, and a Full Tilted Warglaive. It took a while to grind him down, and he continued to score the objectives the whole time, but I capped my primary points on turns 4 and 5 and completed most of my secondaries.[/spoiler]
My next game was against Dark Eldar: your typical Wyches and Incubi in Raiders, with some board control Reavers and anti-tank Scourges. I switched my list a bit to this, removing the Ironstriders and Rangers for 2x10 Vanguard:
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
This game cemented my opinion that I didn't need the Ironstriders. They're ideal for killing Raiders, but I had enough anti-tank to kill every visible Raider without them anyway. I killed 3 on turn 1 going second, again due to advance and shooting the Knights; the Crusader ran 20" around a u-shaped building and merc'd a Raider by itself. I reserved the Vanguard, and used the Infiltrators and Raiders to keep the fast attack from charging any vehicles (which were all on the edge of my deployment zone). On my turn, a lot of the Wyches and Incubi got dismounted midfield and there was nothing to charge except the Warglaives. The characters and Incubi chewed through the Warglaives, but then the Vanguard pulled up and hosed them down. My opponent killed 3 Warglaives and a Dunecrawler, but he just didn't have enough stuff left to keep fighting.
I'm extremely pleased with the armor skew. It's easy enough to reserve or hide the infantry, and they're fast enough to still contribute. The army is especially good at shutting out chip damage between army-wide 2+ armor, all the regen/repair, and 2 strats to ignore profile degradation (the AdMech and Knight ones are separate). I had totally written off my Dunecrawlers, with the Phosphor especially, but they are so consistent and they always have something useful to shoot. The change to Fusilave bombs against tanks makes a world of difference too. The list is so consistent and doesn't need to rely on the Vanguard blob, which often felt like a weak underbelly.
I can't quite play this list IRL yet, but I know what I'm doing with my store league winnings.
So did you find the move to the 2 x 10 to be useful? Or would you try something else next time? I really envy people who have the time and presence of mind to play 2k matches, so many points to do what you want with we just play at a much slower pace that 2k takes us at least half a day lol
I really like armigers, just a great balance of everything.
2021/08/06 18:02:43
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Yeah, I realize I didn't say it explicitly but the Vanguard were game winning. They were the last little piece that pushed my anti-infantry firepower over the edge, and a 10 block with auto-advance 6" actually works as ObSec. The first list could not take an objective off an opponent unless it killed everything. In my experience, ObSec only makes a difference once or twice a game. Typically the Warglaives charge the defenders with the Vanguard behind to control the objective. The big bases of the Knights or Fusilaves will block out responses while the Vanguard will score despite being whittled down. By the time the Vanguard are dead, the vehicles will have also killed the defenders.
I should point out how ridiculously good Metalica Fusilaves are at denying enemy ObSec by slowing movement. I would go so far as to say if you're running Metalica, a Fusilave is mandatory to make Deafening Assault work. Seismic bombs cut the Dark Eldar Wyches ~18" advance and charge to 6" advance and unable to charge. Bombing a unit even 12" from an objective stops them. The Metalica strat is significantly less good by itself (the same Wyches would still have 15"), but having the additional stratagem to tag secondary targets further away reduces the opponent's chances of getting somebody to the objective. If -3" move makes the charge 10" instead of 7, they'll still probably fail, and the total distance traveled remains ~6 inches.
As for playing 2k points consistently, I think you have to externalize as many tasks as possible. I have a notebook with tons of stuff, but you can keep it very simple. At the minimum, I'd say have a guide for your turn pre-planned, have your stratagems listed by phase, and have your unit stat-blocks handy. Personally, I also have each unit's average damage against typical profiles, my list of pertinent secondary objectives, and guidelines for deployment for each unit. I also add notes to everything, such as benchmarks to be on track for scoring secondaries, and how to deploy units based on distance from objectives or enemies.
I've built up these notes principally by asking 'why did this unit die?' Don't say 'that's the nature of the game' (even though it is). For me, it's usually that I didn't think ahead to my opponent's response, which I could have mitigated. Most mistakes can be found by pursuing that question.
My typical game starts with double checking my notebook for the secondaries. I look at my deployment guidelines, and deployment takes 10-15 minutes. Then at the start of each turn I glance over my turn guide. Before I move models, I spend several minutes pre-measuring and planning my turn by looking at the secondaries scoring page and the damage outputs. There's usually only one way to be on pace for scoring, and the planning is fiddling around with mitigating my opponent's response. Then execution is automatic: in my mind, I've already allocated my command points, my shooting, and my charges. The first couple turns should take about 15 minutes each, and the last couple only a few minutes. My games tend to be 2.5 to 3 hours.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 18:16:30
I'm definitely excited the raven+metalica combo is popular around here! Ive only got a couple of games in with it so far, but its been crushing fun. My version is a bit more extreme though, and starts with 4cp
I see what you're going for. I'm leery of spending 2 CP just to get a fifth plane, and a third Fusilave in particular seems redundant. I've experienced that Fusilaves can run out of targets to bomb. I also wouldn't worry about the planes being flimsy; with Chaff Launchers they can pop smoke for another -1 to hit, which can really screw up anti-aircraft weapons. You could drop one, save 2 CP, and go 3x2 Ironstriders for maximum output.
At that point, you can also drop the second Marshal, since you probably won't need him. You definitely want Firepoint Telemtry Cache in there. Instead of a second Marshal, you could take a Technoarc with Artisan, covering the utility of both Multitasking Cortex and Programmed Retreat. Then you can take Firepoint Telemetry Cache as your WLT and essentially net an additional 3 CP with the Artisan bonus. You can drop the spare 5 Rangers to make the points work out.
You should consider going with a Veteran cohort, too. It's a much high skill and knowledge requirement, but the additional stratagems and Doctrina manipulation are extremely powerful. That would warrant some list rebuilding though.
The last thing I'm a bit concerned about is the lack of assault options. You may want to switch those Infiltrators to Ruststalkers or something. You don't really need the board control when half your army has 50" move. Maybe you've just got enough shooting though.
For Secondaries, the AdMech Uncharted Sequencing and Eradication of Flesh are extremely good. Definitely practice or look up some discussions on Uncharted Sequencing because it can be tricky to maximize. It's an easy 9 points, usually.
With my changes, the list would be something like this:
That’s really detailed feedback. One reason I’m not running the cohort is personal opinion on expansion books. It’s one area where I feel the value for money is shocking so I refuse to pick one up (vote with my wallet) and since most GT’s in my area insist on having the books it scuppers me.
Just personal preference I know it would be stronger using it. Funny enough I forgot about my rangers brick having FTC so that was in there.
I have been a bit nervous to try the admech secondaries but I’ll give them a go in my warm up games the evening before
Technoarchiologist - has he been working for you?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/07 00:04:56
2021/08/07 06:31:11
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
@DarkHound
Very similar to my own Mars list (double Patrols), only I did not bring Stratoraptors; I used Rusties in Boats instead.
I am also a big fan of 5- or 10-man Vanguard units. I think 20-man Vanguard units are the worst of all worlds for a non-Veteran Metalica unit.
I also think 2x Fusilave is mandatory in Metalica and Mars lists nowadays. The combination of Las Chickens (or Warglaives, in your case) and Fusilaves handle a lot of threats, especially with a Knight being a shooting magnet for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/07 08:35:07
2021/08/09 09:01:00
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, I realize I didn't say it explicitly but the Vanguard were game winning. They were the last little piece that pushed my anti-infantry firepower over the edge, and a 10 block with auto-advance 6" actually works as ObSec. The first list could not take an objective off an opponent unless it killed everything. In my experience, ObSec only makes a difference once or twice a game. Typically the Warglaives charge the defenders with the Vanguard behind to control the objective. The big bases of the Knights or Fusilaves will block out responses while the Vanguard will score despite being whittled down. By the time the Vanguard are dead, the vehicles will have also killed the defenders.
I should point out how ridiculously good Metalica Fusilaves are at denying enemy ObSec by slowing movement. I would go so far as to say if you're running Metalica, a Fusilave is mandatory to make Deafening Assault work. Seismic bombs cut the Dark Eldar Wyches ~18" advance and charge to 6" advance and unable to charge. Bombing a unit even 12" from an objective stops them. The Metalica strat is significantly less good by itself (the same Wyches would still have 15"), but having the additional stratagem to tag secondary targets further away reduces the opponent's chances of getting somebody to the objective. If -3" move makes the charge 10" instead of 7, they'll still probably fail, and the total distance traveled remains ~6 inches.
As for playing 2k points consistently, I think you have to externalize as many tasks as possible. I have a notebook with tons of stuff, but you can keep it very simple. At the minimum, I'd say have a guide for your turn pre-planned, have your stratagems listed by phase, and have your unit stat-blocks handy. Personally, I also have each unit's average damage against typical profiles, my list of pertinent secondary objectives, and guidelines for deployment for each unit. I also add notes to everything, such as benchmarks to be on track for scoring secondaries, and how to deploy units based on distance from objectives or enemies.
I've built up these notes principally by asking 'why did this unit die?' Don't say 'that's the nature of the game' (even though it is). For me, it's usually that I didn't think ahead to my opponent's response, which I could have mitigated. Most mistakes can be found by pursuing that question.
My typical game starts with double checking my notebook for the secondaries. I look at my deployment guidelines, and deployment takes 10-15 minutes. Then at the start of each turn I glance over my turn guide. Before I move models, I spend several minutes pre-measuring and planning my turn by looking at the secondaries scoring page and the damage outputs. There's usually only one way to be on pace for scoring, and the planning is fiddling around with mitigating my opponent's response. Then execution is automatic: in my mind, I've already allocated my command points, my shooting, and my charges. The first couple turns should take about 15 minutes each, and the last couple only a few minutes. My games tend to be 2.5 to 3 hours.
That's really helpful for me actually, it occurs to me my actual game-day planning is pretty minimal other than the plan for what my list is good at and what its weakness is. Very much fly by the seat of my pants lol. I think alot of the time comes from my always playing with close friends, the temptation (especially atm when we dont see each other often) to chew the cud and chat is usually the biggest time factor I think. Battlefield positioning is definitely one of my weaker areas as well and where I find myself making most of my mistakes where i'll end up sacrificing a unit I could really have done with not doing.
I'd totally forgotten about deafing assault as weell, I somehow presumed it was an infantry only strat lol
2021/08/09 18:46:57
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
@Darkhound I can’t get a techno painted up on time for this GT but I have a second one coming up in a month at BrewDog HQ (for any beer lovers) will make changes then
Secondaries
I was planning on engage and retrieve oculus data. But have been giving some thought to banners
@octovol I’m also terrible at deployment and game plan
2021/08/10 08:01:28
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Anyone else looking at the 2ksons codex and wondering why they don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops and have arbitrary restrictions applied to get their good stuff? lol I was worried this would happen with subsequent codexes. The complexity in our codex isnt always rewarded (see: anything that isn't skitarii infantry) and the rest of the book suffers for it.
Meanwhile 2ksons and even GK to a degree everything is just buffed without all the restrictive covenants on use of stuff. Where's their janky faction nonense? lol
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideasweasel wrote: @Darkhound I can’t get a techno painted up on time for this GT but I have a second one coming up in a month at BrewDog HQ (for any beer lovers) will make changes then
Secondaries
I was planning on engage and retrieve oculus data. But have been giving some thought to banners
@octovol I’m also terrible at deployment and game plan
Aberdeen is a bit far for me, I keep meaning to enter some tournaments, you'd think there'd be a bunch around Nottingham, just to incentivize me to paint my stuff. I'm a very reluctant painter, its not like I don't want my stuff to look good and I like the results, I'm not a terrible painter. But it takes so so long and id rather spend that time playing games lol
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 08:20:01
2021/08/10 08:55:50
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I am also a very slow painter with the added bonus of being bad too haha.
Got factions for my 39 man GT this weekend. And I am the only admech player somehow! I shall look forward to bringing down the win rate to avoid further faction nerfs
You are all welcome
2021/08/10 09:49:16
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Octovol wrote: Anyone else looking at the 2ksons codex and wondering why they don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops and have arbitrary restrictions applied to get their good stuff? lol I was worried this would happen with subsequent codexes. The complexity in our codex isnt always rewarded (see: anything that isn't skitarii infantry) and the rest of the book suffers for it.
All these people trying to rationalize us getting double nerfed and seriously thinking GW isn't going to power creep even more later.
2021/08/10 12:19:02
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I am also a very slow painter with the added bonus of being bad too haha.
Got factions for my 39 man GT this weekend. And I am the only admech player somehow! I shall look forward to bringing down the win rate to avoid further faction nerfs
You are all welcome
That's because we have nothing left to easily abuse I bet there are a lot of Sisters, they're gonna be really strong now, especially with GK and 2ksons slinging spells everywhere.
All we need is Kataphrons as core and we'd be a billion times more interesting than we are now post-neutering. I look at the non-fw-specific Tech-Priest warlord traits and relics and I'm like...oh they all require cult mech core? pass. Even most of the advanced Holy orders, most have are cult mech core. Even Crusade most of the custom arcana are cult mech core. We're feeling the pain Drukhari had the last edition where everything was linked but intrinsically separated.
Ah well, could be worse. Could be Necrons (so i'm told) lol
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 14:31:04
2021/08/10 15:52:58
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I am also a very slow painter with the added bonus of being bad too haha.
Got factions for my 39 man GT this weekend. And I am the only admech player somehow! I shall look forward to bringing down the win rate to avoid further faction nerfs
You are all welcome
That's because we have nothing left to easily abuse I bet there are a lot of Sisters, they're gonna be really strong now, especially with GK and 2ksons slinging spells everywhere.
All we need is Kataphrons as core and we'd be a billion times more interesting than we are now post-neutering. I look at the non-fw-specific Tech-Priest warlord traits and relics and I'm like...oh they all require cult mech core? pass. Even most of the advanced Holy orders, most have are cult mech core. Even Crusade most of the custom arcana are cult mech core. We're feeling the pain Drukhari had the last edition where everything was linked but intrinsically separated.
Ah well, could be worse. Could be Necrons (so i'm told) lol
'cron still have some gnarly stuff (and variety to boot), but yeah, I just played a game against a 'cron player Sunday and beat him 35-9, conceded in Turn 4.
Kataphrons having core would not upset the balance too much- no Kataphron blob is going to out-do the damage output of Skitarii or Laschickens in Mars. The one thing I can think would be an issue is being able to buff stack and have a nigh unstoppable core of 2+ tankboys rolling around for Obsec who can ALSO shoot well.
I think the best way to do it would be to give Core to Kataphrons in certain Forge Worlds- Metalica or Mars would make sense.
2021/08/10 16:30:06
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Having a Techno give it to them like the datasmith does robots would limit the amount of core floating around. Be nice if Enginseers could give core to a vehicle as well seeing as awaken machine is dead underwhelming even if it is on a dead cheap HQ. That does say something though, i'm sure other factions would kill for a +1 to hit on vehicles.
I'm kinda hoping they do Knights really well at this point to give us some nice options and flavour.
2021/08/11 16:03:08
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 16:03:25
2021/08/11 16:46:33
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
1) Nothing I know of. Maybe someone else here can answer this one.
2) The Skitarii Veteran Cohort Army of Renown lets Veteran Skitarii Vanguard ignore Blast. That is the only source as far as I know.
3) Correct, Doctrina are army-wide selections.
2021/08/11 18:17:53
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
1) Nothing I know of. Maybe someone else here can answer this one.
2) The Skitarii Veteran Cohort Army of Renown lets Veteran Skitarii Vanguard ignore Blast. That is the only source as far as I know.
3) Correct, Doctrina are army-wide selections.
Much appreciated! Looks like my opponent omitted the 2 points per model for vets and was loosey-goosey with his other rules.
2021/08/11 20:34:50
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Can an admech flier legally fit in anyway on a dawn of war deployment map in 9th edition such as scorched earth
I’ve never paid too much attention but measuring them it looks like they are over no matter what the angle
FAQ clarified this:
DEPLOYING LARGE MODELS
Some large models, typically Aircraft, have wings and other parts that extend significantly beyond their base, this can make it difficult for them to fit wholly within a mission’s deployment zone, and whilst the deployment sequences of mission packs clearly state that no part of the model can overhang the edge of the battlefield, the edge of your deployment zone is not mentioned. For clarity, such models can overhang a deployment zone if it is not possible to set them up otherwise (i.e. if it is not possible to set them up without them overhanging their deployment zone), but when setting them up on the battlefield their base must still be wholly within their deployment zone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 20:36:17
2021/08/11 21:31:29
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
1) Nothing I know of. Maybe someone else here can answer this one.
2) The Skitarii Veteran Cohort Army of Renown lets Veteran Skitarii Vanguard ignore Blast. That is the only source as far as I know.
3) Correct, Doctrina are army-wide selections.
Much appreciated! Looks like my opponent omitted the 2 points per model for vets and was loosey-goosey with his other rules.
Cantic thrall net vet cohort trait allows you to pick a doctrina for any Skitarii core unit that applies in addition to your army wide doctrina if you have one. Or just for that unit if you havent activated a doctrina that turn.
2021/08/12 09:26:21
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Whoops, sorry to hear that. At least you recognize the mistakes you made. Do you have any examples to learn from? I know it's often easy to talk about in a vacuum, but it's hard to remember all the nuance when you're at the table.
So some games it was poor secondary choices and either not executing a plan to obtain them. Ie taking Raise Occulus Data but then being aggressive with infiltrators then struggling to get the last 2 quarters.
Or picking assassinate against an opponent who manages to screen out characters long enough to grind the game down.
My list to did really well when I went first. Like one game was a massacre against a friend. I actually ended up playing 3 people from our group in a 40 man 6 game tournament
I imagine I will be in goonhammer as a ‘how did he f this up’ in a few days time haha
I unfortunately had a game I 100% was going to win but clocked out. 2.45 for the game was just too tight for me. I needed that extra 15 minutes. Other GT’s I’m used to play 3 hour rounds but man even setting up deployment in record time for me was a struggle.
I also didn’t really know the nuance of the list. Like I made it. Thought about it, but hasn’t practiced enough with it for it to flow well. Sisters of battle and drukhari are not armies I get to play against often so was kinda shooting blind.
And as I was playing 5 planes what I was finding was this. I was killing stuff left right and centre. But was sometimes chasing games just by not having a physical boots on the ground presence.
Down to 4 planes I think.
Some take aways where infiltrators and serberys raiders were amazing when I played them right. Choosing smarter canticle/doctrina picks is essential. Not just having shroudsalm & +1sv turn or +bs & benediction turn. I also need to pay attention to the possible threats.
One game I over extended and got punished. Another I turtled up a bit and ended up losing on primaries and being penned in
One of my regular sparing partners ended up getting 5th so I know I can occasionally fumble a win but I just need to be more consistent
Practice makes perfect I guess ☺️
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I toyed with a Lucius/Mars combo and also tried to find space for vet cohort. Not sure how many troops I need. I’m kinda bored with rangers in large volume. I’d like one big squad for buffs bit fiddly moving through ruins and just rolling the damned dice takes ages. Some games I also only actually needed a minimum squad of 5 to sit still so 15 was wasted. Infiltrators and raiders were way more useful
It’s actually possible to do badly with admech if you are bad
Don't feel bad. I make an arse of every first game I play with a new list in this codex. AdMech is very high skill floor now. Especially if you play horde, which requires quick, deliberate play.