Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all, I don't get to play that much but I had a game today vs demons and I got torn one

I'm using space wolves 1500pts(ish - working on 1750pt list)
Logan
Njal
5WGTerm w/ Arjac and ACannon (in LRR w/ logan)
5WGTerm w/ CML
Lone Wolf + Shield + CFist
LRRedeemer + MM

He had (I think)
Fateweaver
2 DPrinces w/ flying and tzeench spells
2x3 flamers
6 screamers
3-4 x8-10 pink horrors, one w/ changeling

Turn 1 I lose most of njals termie friends to flamers
I lost my landraider to screamer assault mainly and some breath that auto took off a hullpoint?
I killed the flamers and screamers using the remnants of the termies and logan
Managed to ground fateweaver and njal got him down to 1 wound before dieing.
Logan finished fateweaver but then lost it to the princes.


How do I deal with:
Flamers deepstrike and flame on turn 1
Fateweaver flying with 3+ invun rerollable and making flamers and screamers rerollable
Screamers swooping over me and causing autohits and armourbane
3 flying creatures
Autoglancing abilities

I used njals depstrike = dangerous power and I was unlucky with rolls compared to his (fateweaver passed a ludicrous amount of rolls)

Any advice is welcome.

Also, would njal's aoe cover save give a cover save to landraider?

I'm not a SW expert, but I think you jut need more bodies. Plus, breath of Chaos glances on a 4+, not auto.

Mortarion24 wrote:


I'm using space wolves 1500pts(ish - working on 1750pt list)
Logan
Njal
5WGTerm w/ Arjac and ACannon (in LRR w/ logan)
5WGTerm w/ CML
Lone Wolf + Shield + CFist
LRRedeemer + MM

Firstly there's a HUGE problem. Your list is weak. 2 scoring units and 3 massively expensive characters in 1500pts?! I wouldn't touch one of those at such a low points range. You need more boots. Play to the codex's strengths: Grey hunters. Cheap, one of the best troop choices in 40k and scoring. Cheap ML spam - no long fangs? Reconsider. Also RPs, they're incredibly good, and they'll wound those demons on 2+.

Your list is very all or nothing, but the all isn't even that good. It's very easy to counter so few models, and so few units. More boots on the ground will drastically help.

How do I deal with:
Flamers deepstrike and flame on turn 1

If he's flaming the turn he arrives, he's nice and bunched up. Missiles will spread a lot of wounds onto this.

3 flying creatures

Unfortunately SWs have a horrible time dealing with airborne targets. Although as they're MCs, more boots and more squads = more grounding tests. Knock out out the sky with bolters then proceed to either a) assault it with a Lone Wolf or b) plough it with more saves that it can make. With what amounts to about 22 guys, you're not going to dent rerollable 3++.

Autoglancing abilities

Don't tie up 250 pts on a land raider. Get more guys.


Summing up, if you didn't already know my stand point - get more dudes. Play to the codex's strengths, and don't use 200+ pts characters in 1500pts games.

Oh, if you're not into competitive play take my advice lightly, but with the list your opponent is running, he sure as hell is playing competitively, so you might as well too - Go GH, RP and LF spam.

The main problem for me at the moment is that these models are all I have

I'm planning on adding LF with ML and Aegis line with Quad gun to help deal with flyers but I don't have the models yet

I know that Grey Hunters are meant to be good but to be honest they're not that much different to Terminators in efficiency.

I was considering swapping Njal for a couple of rune priests but I have the model and I love the fluff.

I'm definitely more fluff than competitive but I'd like to be able to hold my own

You are playing 1500 points with 14 models, and you're surprised you are losing?

Try putting a lot more guys on the table.

Deploy a unit in the 3rd story of a ruin so that you can't get flamed on the turn he deep strikes.

Mortarion24 wrote:
The main problem for me at the moment is that these models are all I have

Sorry you're boned. Your list is just not competitive in any way, and I'll be surprised if you win any games. Sorry to be so blunt.

I know that Grey Hunters are meant to be good but to be honest they're not that much different to Terminators in efficiency.

What makes you think that? GHs don't have to pay a 225pt tax to be scoring. Cost literally more than twice as much...

Units of 3 flamers are being nice. Lots of shots will take them down.

Flyers. Quad Gun and mass shots. Make them take those grounding tests.

Screamers is mass shots.

So with all of this, get two boxes of Grey Hunters to start. Run only one Terminator Squad. Then Grey Hunters. I would drop the Land Raider too, unless your Terminators are using it to ride.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Mortarion24 wrote:


Sorry you're boned. Your list is just not competitive in any way, and I'll be surprised if you win any games. Sorry to be so blunt.

I know that Grey Hunters are meant to be good but to be honest they're not that much different to Terminators in efficiency.

What makes you think that? GHs don't have to pay a 225pt tax to be scoring. Cost literally more than twice as much...

Have played 3 proper games (i.e not against kids with no clue)

1vs Necrons where I won quite convincingly
1vs demons lost convincingly
1vs Grey Knights lost but if my Redeemer hadn't lost its last hp to his last psycannon rending on turn 4 it'd probably have been a draw. If I'd played more aggressively I'd probably have won

Termies are slightly over double points but slightly over twice as survivable.

Against AP4/5/6/- you take half as many wounds on average
Against AP2 you still get invun saves

Termies more options which make them more flexible which can only be good

At over 12 inches the firepower output is the same if you have 5 SB termies or 10 GH

Inside 12 inches it's not as good but then you're getting into assault range and termies come with PW so even if you get a few less attacks on the charge you go through anything with 3+ or less armour

Logan Grimnar isn't a tax, he's a beast. Granted he'd be more effective with more bodies around but meh thats the price I pay for fluff.

The Land Raider would be effective at getting Logans unit to combat I just need to play aggresively and get a bit more gaming experience.

Well, first of all I'd play smaller games. Try a ~750 point game and let us know how it goes.

Secondly, I'd take a squad of Grey Knights and an Inquisitor as allies. Pop Warp Quake on the first turn, and his flamers can't deploy close enough to flame you.

While I'm not going to argue that the GHs should be in cover anyway... but here is the point you're clearly missing:

You have over 1/3 your points tied up in 1 squad. The absolute maximum that can do is kill 1 of your opponents units per turn. Simiarly, you have another 1/3 tied up in a single unit.

While the 2+ may make them twice as survivable, they are still limited 1 one target. Where as if you took more GHs, you can do more damage because you don't have that limitation of 1 target per turn. Your list is death starx2 with a transport. Frankly it's absurd. The most you can do in 5 turns is kill 10 units, assuming everything is alive.

The weapon options aren't really more versatile considering they're combi or require you to be in CC. The GHs will out-perform the terminators consistently.

I get the feeling you're one of these posters that won't listen to advice no matter what. So I'll leave it here, but think about how more boots and the ability to hit more targets would help, then you'll see why your list is garbage, which is why you're having problems.

Edits: So. Many. Typos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As you can see, when someone alpha strikes a squad of terminators, being twice as survivable doesn't matter. They couldn't do this to two squads of GHs c.f. 1 squad of terminators.

 Griddlelol wrote:


You have over 1/3 your points tied up in 1 squad. The absolute maximum that can do is kill 1 of your opponents units per turn. Simiarly, you have another 1/3 tied up in a single unit.

So you're suggesting trading 1 unit of 5 terminators (ignoring Arjac) for 2 units of 5 Grey hunters?

I do actually split Log and Njal off if I need too. They aren't stuck in there the entire game unless it's beneficial. You can also multi-charge so you can kill more than 1 unit a turn.

Land Raider also kills stuff.

I am all open to advice. I may not choose to alter my list at the moment due to lack of models or unwillingness to change the theme/fluff of my army but I will take it on board. To be honest though I was looking for hints of how to play more effectively against demons but I didn't specify that in my original post so that's my bad

Mortarion24 wrote:

So you're suggesting trading 1 unit of 5 terminators (ignoring Arjac) for 2 units of 5 Grey hunters?

Not quite, GHs are best run in 10s due to the free special weapon, but I'm suggesting the points equivalent - don't tie everything up in big chunky units.

Land Raider also kills stuff.

Rarely. They're not about killing, they're about guaranteeing a delivery.

To be honest though I was looking for hints of how to play more effectively against demons but I didn't specify that in my original post so that's my bad

Nah, not your fault, I went off on a rant as usual, but it's very hard to tweak your list to be effective against demons. To work against 3 flying MCs and a unit of flamers that can quite easily toast a single unit the turn it arrives and it practically un-assaultable, there needs to be a huge over-haul.

Fateweaver has to take a leadership test every time he takes a wound. If he fails he is removed as a casualty regardless of remaining wounds. Was your opponent remembering to do this?

I am a huge fan of terminators, and ran deathwing for a long time. I say that so you understand that while I like terminator lists, I dislike how your list its set up.

First, Logan grants several special rules, but they seem to give the most benefit to long fangs. Imagine Logan and arjac with 5 multimelta long fangs in a pod. Arjac and Logan provide the cc muscle and 2+ save toughness, plus an extra s10 shot to go with the s8 shots. Yes they are expensive, but you said your models are limited so this let's you still use arjac and Logan, and you only need some long fangs.

Also, if you do get grey Hunters, consider that in cover they are just as survivable to ap2 attacks as termies, and versus short range threats like daemons they have twice the shots, plus large blocks of infantry benefit more from the +1 attack bubble especially with wood standards. Finally, you can continue to use your termies as sarges in the grey Hunters, and take a single footslogging wolf guard squad with 2 heavy weapon termies that second members out to other squads.

No worries, I know it's going to be a hard list for me to beat.

I'm thinking next time of wrapping my terminators in a long line around impassable terrain so only a couple can get hit by templates (There was a building in the middle we'd agreed as impassable and I should have spread out around it

TBBB
..BBB
TBBB
..T..T..T

He was also very lucky with his rolls. All his deepstrikes got hits apart from one which scattered into an even more favourable position
Fateweaver passed about 4 tests to be grounded and about 30-35 invun saves and both leadership tests (he remembered this although he said the flame thing auto glanced my raider which sucked as it killed it as it was about to unleash all over his screamers and prince) before I managed to kill him.
He also passed about 2/3 of his invun saves with his other demons, even when they wee out of fateweaver's bubble...next time.....


Not quite sure why I'd want Arjac + Logan + 5 MM in a drop pod. 5 MM + Hammer seems a bit of overkill against tanks and against elite infantry I think I'd still prefer my combi plasmas with preferred enemy whereas against lesser infantry I'd lose out on volume of shots and number of combat attacks. Plus you can't assault out of a drop pod so you'd have to take a turn of close range shooting whereas in the landraider the idea is to get out and into combat whilst avoiding all shooting.

Mortarion24 wrote:



Not quite sure why I'd want Arjac + Logan + 5 MM in a drop pod. 5 MM + Hammer seems a bit of overkill against tanks and against elite infantry I think I'd still prefer my combi plasmas with preferred enemy whereas against lesser infantry I'd lose out on volume of shots and number of combat attacks. Plus you can't assault out of a drop pod so you'd have to take a turn of close range shooting whereas in the landraider the idea is to get out and into combat whilst avoiding all shooting.

Relentless + splitfire is pretty sexy.

3MM Vs Target1
2MM+Hammer Vs Target2

Your landraider has a huge target on its back. something like 80% of the time it wont get there vs a good player.

if you really want to run terminators, take grey knights allies, if not, replace at least one squad with grey hunters, if the opponent is really that determined to get your guys killed, He'll use AP2/1, meaning you only end up with a 5+, something that you should be able to get from cover anyway

Mortarion24 wrote:

Screamers swooping over me and causing autohits and armourbane

This is completely wrong. Warp Jaws has the armourbane rule, but Slashing Attacks has the profile S4 AP - d3 hits on a unit that they flew over. This means your troops are relatively safe inside the vehicle turn 1 other than his flamers.

Really thge way to beat daemons is to bring along a few guard infantry blobs and embed your characters in them.

Mortarion24 wrote:

I lost my landraider to screamer assault mainly and some breath that auto took off a hullpoint?

So Screamer assault on t2?

They're nasty lil devils after their update.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Mortarion24 wrote:

I lost my landraider to screamer assault mainly and some breath that auto took off a hullpoint?

So Screamer assault on t2?

They're nasty lil devils after their update.

Actually they are a little worse against AV14 than they were before. You are probably better off using S10 smash attacks from the princes or GD.

Another unit would be Long Fangs with Rune Priest and Divination Power. Maybe Heavy Bolters. With a Quad Gun Defense Line. Ability to re-roll to hit with that many shots can do a lot to FMC. And that many shots against flamers would be good too.

Daemons player here! I think most of the players have covered this above.
SW that have given me a hard time include
Aegis with long fangs
Have plenty of scoring units
and bubble wrap the valuables.

Remember daemons need at least 4-6 inches of diameter of space on the table to deep strike down. If any of the daemons are within 1 inch of you its a mishap.
If you bubble wrap and spread your troops you can limit daemons 2 very few close deep strike positions. Sometimes even forcing them to deep strike away because the position you give them is so rancid.

When shooting at FMC's use small arms fire first to ground then use large str and template weapons.

When in doubt you could just eliminate the daemons scoring options. Thankfully he is only running pink horrors which are much easier to kill than plaguebearers.

Voxick wrote:


When in doubt you could just eliminate the daemons scoring options. Thankfully he is only running pink horrors which are much easier to kill than plaguebearers.

Horrors within 6" of BigBird are just nasty.

When I play daemons I usually run my MC's next to Fate havent tried the pinkies! thanks for the idea lol

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Your landraider has a huge target on its back. something like 80% of the time it wont get there vs a good player.

I respectfully disagree, most of the time a good player will ignore it and kill everything else - although no matter how many times I throw squads of 3xmelta gun at a LR I can't seem to do more than scratch the paint so I pretty much gave up on them >.>

Logan
Njal
5WGTerm w/ Arjac and ACannon (in LRR w/ logan)
5WGTerm w/ CML
Lone Wolf + Shield + CFist
LRRedeemer + MM

I will remove Logan, Njal and the landraider for more troops and one or two dreadnoughts. A 10 men devastator squad will be good to dealt the deamons.

 Griddlelol wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Your landraider has a huge target on its back. something like 80% of the time it wont get there vs a good player.

I respectfully disagree, most of the time a good player will ignore it and kill everything else - although no matter how many times I throw squads of 3xmelta gun at a LR I can't seem to do more than scratch the paint so I pretty much gave up on them >.>

I guess it depends on what's inside/what army you're playing. w/ IG I'd prolly try to crack it with a manticore/2

With Orks I'd just set it up so I can Deffrolla the heck out of it on T2.

At 1500 pts though with lists like this, you can't ignore the LR. It's holding the majority of the army.