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1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Mech Imperial Guards (Pic-heavy! Completed)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Are tyranids as competitive as Imperial Guards?
Tyranids rock. They will put the smackdown on the Imperial weaklings.
Tyranid toughness + Imperial firepower = Draw.
Guards are still among one of the top dogs. They just have too many AP 1/2 weaponry for bugs to handle.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Due to popular demand....and because I didn't want to wait at least 2 weeks before I could possibly play against an IG player....I decided to have a test game between the surprisingly good tyranids and my standard, competitive mechanized Imperial Guards. The tyranid build I will be using is my standard Hive Fleet Pandora. The guard army is your typical competitive mech guards comprised mainly of veterans in chimeras and vendettas. I did, however, swap out 1 manticore for a leman russ demolisher. Keep in mind, though, that I haven't played my guards in quite some time. I did take them out for a spin in what would be my very last game of 5th edition, but before then, I haven't used them for over a year. So I apologize if I show some ring-rust with them.

This will also be a practice game for the Bay Area Open. Basically, it uses 2 of the book missions - Purge the Alien and the Scouring.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


1750 Hive Fleet Pandora vs Mechanized Imperial Guards


1750 Tyranids

Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers
Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers

Doom of Ma'lantai - Mycetic Spore
2x Hive Guards
2x Hive Guards

Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Toxin Sacs, Crushing Claws
10x Termagants
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants

16x Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

3x Biovores
2x Biovores



1750 Imperial Guards

Company Command Squad - 4x Plasmas, Chimera w/Heavy Bolter

Veteran Squad - 3x Meltas, Chimera w/Heavy Bolter
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltas, Chimera w/Heavy Bolter
Veteran Squad - 3x Plasmas, Chimera w/Heavy Bolter
Veteran Squad - 3x Plasmas, Chimera w/Heavy Bolter
Veteran Squad - 3x Plasmas, Chimera w/Heavy Bolter

Vendetta - 2x Heavy Bolters
Vendetta - 2x Heavy Bolters
Vendetta - 2x Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ Demolisher - 3x Heavy Bolters
Manticore - Heavy Bolter


-------------------------------------------------------------------


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/13 03:23:58



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Dakka Veteran





I'm rooting for the Nids, but I think this looks like a very tough fight for them...wouldn't be surprised if the IG table the Nids in this game. So many heavy bolters and strength 7+, Ap 2 or better weapons.

I'll be interested to see how your Nids handle such an uphill battle (at least imo - looking forward to your pre-game analysis).
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar






Ig have this. As long as IG can get those hiveguard down quick, IG has the firepower to down your tyrants and the shots to kill everything else.

40k: IG "The Poli-Aima 1st" ~3500pts (and various allies)
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 Ouze wrote:
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Tough Tyrant Guard






Whoever goes first is at a massive advantage.

I think tyranids got this.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

I agree that first turn and proper tactics will win this game --

IG is all mech'ed up, which means the biovores will have no targets until the flyrants start busting up transports. The manticore, on the other hand, can one-shot an entire unit of biovores from the start, so that's something to be aware of. The vendettas are obviously going to try and bring down the flyrants, which will re-direct the flyrants from anti-transport duties (leaving it to the capable hive guard). It should be a tough back-and-forth game and if the IG can put down the flying tyrants quickly they should not have trouble killing the tervigons and shutting down the tyranid machine.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Atlanta, Ga

Leaning toward the Imperial Guard this time. Healthy amount of ranged firepower, 3 of the best fliers in the game and a weapon system that can systematically splat any of the smaller bugs.


"United States Marine Corps: When it absolutely and positively has to be destroyed overnight"


"If all else fails, empty the magazine" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:
If this was 5th edition, as a bug player, I would be deathly afraid of this IG army. However, now in 6th edition, not much so. Why? Because bugs have gotten much more resilient to IG firepower now. How?

- Iron Arm. Plasmas right now are not as scary as it used to be.

- Endurance. Now even the HQ's can potentially cast FNP. Now FNP has become much more pervasive in the army. On the flip-side, there's also more of a chance you may not get FNP at all...which is why now I do my tervigon powers last. If I don't get Endurance, then I keep Catalyst on at least one of the tervigons.

- Flying monstrous creatures. Now flyrants are much harder to shoot down by anything other than the vendettas.

- Much easier to get cover for the big guys. Hey, I'll take that 5+ cover over nothing any day of the week.

- Vendettas can't contribute to the initial Imperial Guard alpha-strike. They need to start off in reserves.

I agree that whoever gets 1st turn will have a slight advantage. Why? If Guards go first, they can hit the bugs before they've got a chance to cast any of their psychic powers. While their alpha strike is not as scary as before now that the vendettas won't be able to contribute until Turn 2, it still is respectable and can potentially wipe out 1 Tyranid Monstrous Creature (TMC) or more in 1 turn. If bugs go first, they will have at least 2 turns to do some damage before the vendettas come in. That could be significant. Flyrants now have the mobility to contribute to the offense on Turn 1. Not only that, but they can swoop to get side shots at the chimeras and possibly give the biovores some targets on their very first turn.

Also, keep in mind the scenarios. Basically, the BAO missions in this game is the Scouring and Purge the Alien. Bugs are usually at their best in objectives games and Guards have more Victory Points due to their transports. Both missions slightly favor the bugs IMO. The only question then is....how well can the bugs survive Imperial firepower?


Imperial Guards:
Let's take inventory here of the potential firepower of the guards:

3x S10 large blast barrages
9x S9 twin-linked lascannon shots
6x S8 melta shots
26x S7 plasma shots
18x S6 multi-laser shots
48x S5 heavy bolter shots

Now if only guards can bring all that firepower to bear all at once, the game would be over in a heartbeat. Fortunately for the bugs, they can't. The fact that the vendettas cannot start on the table and has to come in from reserves gives the bugs a little breathing room. Guards need to get within plasma-double-tap range to really put the hurt on the bugs. They need to go after the tervigons. Let the vendettas take care of the flyrants when they come in. One of the weaknesses of the bugs is synapse. Flyrants will be all over the place. Only the tervigons are anchoring down the rest of the army with their synapse. Get rid of them and now you force the flyrants to have to make a decision - to continue playing offense or to go babysit the rest of the army....assuming the flyrants are even alive at that point.

Manticores need to take out those biovores. I feel that this may actually be the X-factor in this game - the barrage weaponry of both armies. Whichever barrage does better may possibly come out as the victor in this game.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Bay Area Open Scenario #5 - Purge the Alien (4pts) & The Scouring (3pts)

The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #5, Purge the Alien is worth 4-points and the Scouring worth 3-points.


Deployment: Vanguard Strike


Initiative: Tyranids


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Spoiler:

Map of the terrain.

First turn is Night-fighting.


Tyranid psychic powers (all Biomancy):

Flyrant #1 (Warlord, top): Life Leech, Hemorrhage
Flyrant #2: Enfeeble, Life Leech
Both Tervigons: Enfeeble, Endurance, Warp Speed
Doom: Cataclysm (Tyranid codex power)

I got crappy powers for the flyrants. I needed either Iron Arm or Endurance for them but got neither. I also didn't get any Iron Arm for the tervigons (who both got exactly the same powers), though I did get Endurance. You know the psychic power edge I was talking about? Well, there is no advantage there for the bugs this game.

Warlord traits:

Tyranids: FNP within 3" of an objective.
Imperial Guards: units within 12" can use the LD of their Warlord.



Tyranid deployment. 1 unit of gants and the Doom in reserves.



IG deployment.

I then check to see the objectives (red dice indicate how many points each objective is worth, the other dice are for mysterious objectives):


2 of the 3-pt objectives in easy reach of my bugs!



Uh oh....skyfire objective on the right!


Overall perspective of the deployment phase.

Guards try to steal the initiative but fail.




-------------------------------------------------------------------


Tyranids 1

Spoiler:

Tyranids cast their powers and then advance. Tervigons give the flyrants FNP. Flyrant swoops.


The Warlord flyrant goes after the right-most chimera.


He blows it up, killing 4. The bugs get First Blood. Biovores then fire at the occupants, but both miss badly.

IG: 0, Tyranids: 1

I actually played this wrong. I forgot about Night-fight. One of those biovores (probably even both of them) should be out-of-range due to Night-fight. Fortunately they both miss completely.


However, plasma-vets would then fail morale and run off the board anyways.

IG: 0, Tyranids: 2



Hive guards would then take off 2 hull points from 2 chimeras. They also blow off the heavy bolter on one of them. I would have focused on the chimeras to finish it off, but 1 of the hive guards didn't have range.


Finally, the bugs do a little running.




Imperial Guards 1

Spoiler:

Chimera moves 6" and out pops the plasma-vets. I will lose my veterans, but I am willing to take a gamble to try to hurt the tervigon enough so that I can probably kill it next turn.


IG advance slowly.


Melta-vets get out. They are going after the gargoyles. With First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!, I think I can wipe out most of the gargoyles and turn them into a non-factor.


Melta-vets combined with orders and multi-lasers plus heavy bolters wipe out 12 gargoyles, or all that the guardsmen could see.


Veterans fire at the tervigon. However, 2 dies to Gets Hot! but they do manage to strip the tervigon of 3 Wounds.

Demolisher also fires at the wounded tervigon, but it's blast scatters and puts 1W on the other tervigon.


CCS only has range and LOS to the hive guards and fire 4 plasmas, killing 1 hive guard. Also, the manticore is out of range of the biovores (due to Night-fight) and thus fire only 1 rocket at the hive guards.

Overall, a rather disappointing turn of shooting by guards.




Tyranids 2

Spoiler:

Overview of the top of Turn 2.


The Doom comes in.


Flyrant swoops.


Tyranid movement. Tervigon start spawning gants. The left one poops out at 5. The right tervigon also cast Endurance on itself. I would, however, forget about taking It Will Not Die tests at the end of my turns.


Warlord go after the disembarked plasma-vets. Ok, here is my gameplan. I am not going to shoot them. I am just going to assault and stay locked in combat for 1 turn. This way, the vendettas coming in on IG turn won't be able to shoot down my Warlord.


The Doom's Spirit Leech takes out 3 veterans.


Flyrant shoots down the CCS's chimera.

IG: 0, Tyranids: 3


The Doom then fires Cataclysm at the chimera, blowing it up as well as killing another 3 veterans. Veterans would later pass morale.

IG: 0, Tyranids: 4


Hive guards fire at the damaged chimera and wrecks it. The passengers get pinned.

IG: 0, Tyranids: 5


Biovores then fire at the pinned veterans. 3 direct hits wipe them out completely.

IG: 0, Tyranids: 6


Other hive guards fire at the other damaged chimera and blow it up. 3 veterans die from the explosion but they pass morale.

IG: 0, Tyranids: 7

The other biovores fire at the CCS unit but miss completely.


The Warlord assaults. To minimize casualties, I actually do a Smash attack. BTW, I totally forget about Hammer of Wrath attacks. That is one thing that I keep on forgetting in all my games.

In any case, the Warlord whiffs completely and they stay locked. Good.




Imperial Guards 2

Spoiler:

That was a brutal turn for guards. To make matters worse, only 1 vendetta comes in this turn. It goes after the unengaged flyrant.


As do the CCS. Melta-vets will try to take out the Doom.


Plasma-vets advance 6", climbing on top of the other chimera wreck.


Thanks to FNP and cover, the flyrant only takes 1W from the vendetta and CCS. 1 plasma gunner dies to heat exhaustion.

I make another mistake here. Instinctively, I jink with the flyrant even though he is already in terrain. That means that next turn, he will only be firing snap shots.

The Doom, however, isn't so lucky against a melta shot.

IG: 1, Tyranids: 7


A multi-laser takes down the lone hive guard.

IG: 2, Tyranids: 7

Plasma-vets also put 2W on a tervigon.


Manticore again gets only 1 shot. It targets the biovores, but the shot scatters into the termagants and kill 4 instead.


In assault, the sargeant challenges the flyrant and dies in the valiant attempt. At least he is still tied up in combat and can't go gunning down vendettas (or manticore) next turn.




Tyranids 3

Spoiler:

Overview of the top of Turn 3.


Tyranid movement.


Flyrant goes after the CCS because 1) he is snap-firing only, 2) he is going for Slay the Warlord and 3) I want to get locked in combat yet again so I won't get shot down by vendettas next turn.


Shooting by hive guards take off 2 Hull Points and immobilizes the chimera (the dice counter is wrong and shows weapon destroyed, but it is actually immobilied).


I don't quite remember how, but the CCS loses 2 plasma gunners. (It wasn't from the flyrant, who did not fire this turn.)


Tervigon attempts to charge the chimera but fails. He also eats 1 plasma wound from Overwatch.


Flyrant then charges in and smashes the company commander to a pulp. The lone guardsman passes morale.


Warlord wipes out the veterans. I forget to use Smash attacks. Doh!!!

IG: 2, Tyranids: 8




Imperial Guards 3

Spoiler:

Only 1 vendetta comes in. The other vendetta goes after the tyranid Warlord as well. Gulp!


Demolisher tries to run over the spore but immobilizes itself instead (via Death & Glory)!

Melta-vets go after the termagants, making a play for the objective.


A flyrant out in the open without FNP, Iron Arm or any cover won't last very long against 2 vendettas. IG gets the tyranid Warlord.

IG: 3, Tyranids: 8


IG then focuses it's entire army at the tervigon out in the open - plasma-vets in double-tap range, demolisher, melta-vets and chimeras. Through a combination of poor shooting and good FNP saves, they only manage to put 1W on it!!!


I then remember about the manticore. It's a long shot, especially since I've only got 1-shot yet again, but I take the gamble. It pays off as the the manticore shot gets through both the tervigon's armor and FNP saves, killing it dead.

IG: 4, Tyranids: 8


Finally, the flyrant finishes off the CCS.

IG: 4, Tyranids: 9




Tyranids 4

Spoiler:

Now flyrant goes after the vendetta.


Tervigon spawn some gants.


The small termagant unit shoots down 1 veteran.


Hive guards wreck the chimera.

IG: 4, Tyranids: 10


Due to poor armour penetration rolls and good jink saves (made 2 out of 3), the vendetta only loses 1 lascannon to the flyrant.

Veterans only lose 1 to biovore shooting, which scatters once again.


Gants then charge the melta-vets, losing 1 to Overwatch. Combat is drawn with 0 deaths each.


The newly-spawned termagant unit charges the other vetarans, also losing 1 to Overwatch.


They kill 6. They would have wiped out the entire unit but could not allocate a wound to the last model because they couldn't see him.

I then forget to take morale for the guardsman.




Imperial Guards 4

Spoiler:

The last vendetta automatically comes in. The jinked vendetta flies off the table and into Ongoing Reserves.


Flyrant survives with 1W left, thanks to FNP.


Manticore fires at the biovores once more. And once more, the shot scatters and only kills 2 termagants.


Veterans wipe out the gants, losing 1 vet in the process.

IG: 5, Tyranids: 10


Finally, gants wipe out the lone veteran in combat.

IG: 5, Tyranids: 11




Tyranids 5

Spoiler:

Overview of the top of Turn 5.


After 2 failed previous Instinctive Behaviour tests, gants finally pass and go after the objective.


Flyrant jumps over the vendetta to get some rear shots.


Tervigon spawn 11 gants and then advance.


Gants go after the manticore, who is now out of missiles.


This time, the flyrant takes down the vendetta.

IG: 5, Tyranids: 12


Gants swarm the guardsmen, losing 2 to Overwatch.


Veterans are overrun, but not before they kill 2 more gants.

IG: 5, Tyranids: 13


Gants assault the manticore....but they move outside of Furious Charge range of the tervigon and thus cannot hurt the tank.




Imperial Guards 5

Spoiler:

Vendetta goes into Hover mode in order to go after the tervigon.


It takes both the vendetta and demolisher to put 2W on the tervigon (1W left).

Manticore shoot down a couple of gants with its heavy bolters.


Finally, the vendetta that just came in shoots down the flyrant.

IG: 6, Tyranids: 13


The game is already lost for Guards. They have no more troops left and are down by a substantial amount in Victory Points. Normally, I would concede at this point....however, there is a chance for some moral victory. There is only 1 synapse tyranid monstrous creature left with only 1W left. Guardsmen may have lost the war, but they are going to try to win this one last battle.


I roll to see if the game continues and does.




Tyranids 6

Spoiler:

Tervigon spawn another 14 gants. Gants go after the vendetta. Tervigon goes after the demolisher.

Hive guards miss.


Onto assault.


Tervigon blows up the demolisher. Termagants take off 2 Hull Points from the vendetta.

IG: 6, Tyranids: 14




Imperial Guards 6

Spoiler:

Vendettas go after the tervigon and hive guards. Green vendetta remains in Hover mode.


They wipe out the hive guards.

IG: 7, Tyranids: 14


And finish off the tervigon as well. 4 and 6 gants die in the ensuing explosion.

IG: 8, Tyranids: 14


The larger gant unit then fails morale and falls back.

IG: 9, Tyranids: 14


Game ends.


Tyranids have 3 objectives to 0 for Guard, thus winning the Scouring (3-pts). Bugs also win in Victory Points, thus taking Purge the Alien as well (4-pts). Both armies have Warlord. Bugs also get First Blood. Tyranids take it 9-1.




Crushing Victory to Hive Fleet Pandora!!!





-------------------------------------------------------------------


This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2012/12/13 03:23:14



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7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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This will be tough for the guard, night fight turn one and going second makes up for the lack of good powers on the bugs. Should be a great game either way though, as I don't see a lot that can open the imperial armor head on other then assault. For me it will depend how well the hive guard do turn one so the flyrants can mop up a couple plasma vet units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/12 20:38:31


   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






Flyrants are realy good at opening chimeras... biovores evaporate whatever falls out. Not to mention barrage hit side armor so if they cluster up, 5 biovores can actually do some damage to the armor if the nids can't open the cans.

Furthermore, now the tyrants have two turns before he vendettas arrive, which means they can be locked in combat by ig2 and come out just in time to shoot vendettas down.

Not that it's a given, but I would bet it's something on Jy's mind.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Flyrants are realy good at opening chimeras... biovores evaporate whatever falls out. Not to mention barrage hit side armor so if they cluster up, 5 biovores can actually do some damage to the armor if the nids can't open the cans.

Furthermore, now the tyrants have two turns before he vendettas arrive, which means they can be locked in combat by ig2 and come out just in time to shoot vendettas down.

Not that it's a given, but I would bet it's something on Jy's mind.

You got that right, brother.



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ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Flyrants are realy good at opening chimeras... biovores evaporate whatever falls out. Not to mention barrage hit side armor so if they cluster up, 5 biovores can actually do some damage to the armor if the nids can't open the cans.

Furthermore, now the tyrants have two turns before he vendettas arrive, which means they can be locked in combat by ig2 and come out just in time to shoot vendettas down.

Not that it's a given, but I would bet it's something on Jy's mind.


First off, again I will state this is going to be tough on the guard going second during night fight. S6 ap- is not great at opening av12, you are making assumptions that they will automatically gain side shots while proper portioning should prevent this for the first turn at least. Second turn I fully agree though the flyrants should open some chimeras, probably a manitcore if he plays his cards well. Biovores should not open chimeras though, considering they as well are ap- and s5 (correct?) and that they will be shooting during night fighting conditions turn 1 I think it's safe to assume he will be relying on those hive guard to open chimeras. If he resorts to firing biovores at chimeras it means things are going well for guard. Also what world are you from where you expect msu guard to last more then a round of combat with a flyrant lol? This is possible but I don't think he will risk gliding to ground to possibly (unlikely) remain in assault, he would then be grounded and they would shoot him off the table. As a guard player I will take that trade all day long. No I assume those FMC will swoop most of the game if they can.

At any rate, I like the Nids list a lot Jy2, but I really think the guard list is a bit dated. Aside from the vendettas of course, I feel hybrid vet/platoon guard is much much more consistent in 6th. An aegis is cheap, protects cheap PIS well and provides a massive road block to assault elements as well as the tanks you can put behind the units. I know in this match the biovores would torrent guard on foot but I still feel that TAC guard needs more foot grunts in 6th. You could even mitigate the biovores in this match by putting the platoon into the vendettas.

I feel like guard deployed poorly in this game though, honestly, considering going second and night fight I would have reserved more units if needed in order to deploy so the nids would have no range or proper arc turn 1 and force them to run. This would have allowed a counter strike with the vendattas on turn two as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/13 02:13:20


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

The biovore shots are S4 AP 4.

I haven't run my guards in a while and so I'm a little out-of-date as I haven't been following up on guard strategy. The guard build is probably not the most competitive nowadays, but I still believe that it is still a dangerous one.

But if I were to run the list at 2K, I would drop 1 squad of veterans to fit in an infantry/blob-squad. At 1750, it's too hard to fit them in and still keep most of their "toys".





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 jy2 wrote:
The biovore shots are S4 AP 4.

I haven't run my guards in a while and so I'm a little out-of-date as I haven't been following up on guard strategy. The guard build is probably not the most competitive nowadays, but I still believe that it is still a dangerous one.

But if I were to run the list at 2K, I would drop 1 squad of veterans to fit in an infantry/blob-squad. At 1750, it's too hard to fit them in and still keep most of their "toys".





Hey man i understand completely, you run several armies, and it's hard to keep them all up to speed. I think that the list is still very solid, but vets die very easily now and to me are more like firedragons in that they deliver their payload and die, so it's best to have cheap scoring bodies that reserve or hide in your fliers... but I am not the best guard player either, mine are all getting an over haul so they are in pieces

Seriously love that nid build though. Fully taking your side over janthkin on the biovores too

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA



Battle report completed.


Post-game Analysis to come later.


 Red Corsair wrote:

Hey man i understand completely, you run several armies, and it's hard to keep them all up to speed. I think that the list is still very solid, but vets die very easily now and to me are more like firedragons in that they deliver their payload and die, so it's best to have cheap scoring bodies that reserve or hide in your fliers... but I am not the best guard player either, mine are all getting an over haul so they are in pieces

Seriously love that nid build though. Fully taking your side over janthkin on the biovores too

Thanks! Barrage sniping is just so good. Gargoyles rock also....but it just takes too much time to play them, which is a turn-off for me. It's hard enough finishing games on time with bugs in competitive play. Anyways, I've always loved running biovores ever since 5th edition, when they were my solution to those damn MSU troops and long fangs.



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ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

Wow, this was a rough game for the Guard. I think this battle, more than anything else, proves that mech spam isn't the powerhouse that it was in 5th edition, although realistically I think it comes down to a combination of Mech lists getting a lot weaker and Tyranids becoming substantially better.

In all seriousness, though, without Vendettas on the board on turn 1, those Flyrants were always going to be hard to deal with. Having faced regenerating Tervigons before, I can also attest how annoyingly resilient the bug-poppers can be. The only thing I can say is that some flamers (hull mounted or otherwise) wouldn't have gone amiss to deal with all those Gargoyles and Gaunts, though I guess massed lasguns did the trick just the same.

I honestly can't think of what the Guard could have done differently. Except for take Hydras, that is, and even then, the Flyrants would probably have targeted them on turn 1.

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Stephens City, VA

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:
Wow, this was a rough game for the Guard. I think this battle, more than anything else, proves that mech spam isn't the powerhouse that it was in 5th edition, although realistically I think it comes down to a combination of Mech lists getting a lot weaker and Tyranids becoming substantially better.

In all seriousness, though, without Vendettas on the board on turn 1, those Flyrants were always going to be hard to deal with. Having faced regenerating Tervigons before, I can also attest how annoyingly resilient the bug-poppers can be. The only thing I can say is that some flamers (hull mounted or otherwise) wouldn't have gone amiss to deal with all those Gargoyles and Gaunts, though I guess massed lasguns did the trick just the same.

I honestly can't think of what the Guard could have done differently. Except for take Hydras, that is, and even then, the Flyrants would probably have targeted them on turn 1.


All I can think of is that the mission and lack of first turn was devastating.
I've been allying with SW's for some GH's in rhinos with a Rune Priest + Long Fangs

Psy Def, Twin Linked Krak/frags. Or TL'ing something from IG if you need to.

Rough one JY, guess we need to keep on tryin.

   
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Wow! I'm pretty surprised at how well that went for the Nids. As previously mentioned, I think having the first turn tipped it a little towards the Nids...but that was pretty brutal. Well played, sir.

jy2 - Something I'd love to see, whether it's against another player or playing yourself, actual models or full proxies, etc...I'd really like to see how your Tyranids would handle a completely uphill battle.
I expected this fight to be challenging and I was clearly wrong. Have you played any games against Mechanized Dark Eldar? Or maybe a random powerful army w/ allied Runes of Warding?

You, Reece, and Janthkins are making Tyranids look unbeatable (Obviously, in the hands of skilled players, most armies can look terrifying but you get the idea). What do they struggle with and, more importantly, how would they handle it?
   
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Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

 jy2 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:

Hey man i understand completely, you run several armies, and it's hard to keep them all up to speed. I think that the list is still very solid, but vets die very easily now and to me are more like firedragons in that they deliver their payload and die, so it's best to have cheap scoring bodies that reserve or hide in your fliers... but I am not the best guard player either, mine are all getting an over haul so they are in pieces

Seriously love that nid build though. Fully taking your side over janthkin on the biovores too

Thanks! Barrage sniping is just so good. Gargoyles rock also....but it just takes too much time to play them, which is a turn-off for me. It's hard enough finishing games on time with bugs in competitive play. Anyways, I've always loved running biovores ever since 5th edition, when they were my solution to those damn MSU troops and long fangs.
'ere now! It's not a Biovores vs. Gargoyles comparison here - you HAVE Gargoyles in this list. Speed is a non-issue; it takes longer to resolve 5 or 6 barrage shots every turn (roll scatter, move first shot, resolve, roll second scatter, resolve, etc.) than it does to move Gargoyles.

I can understand the attraction of Biovores; they just never make it to the top of my list of "if only I had this instead of that" units. That's a ton of points sunk into T4 models that need synapse babysitters; I'd rather have, say, a Tervigon w/most of the trimmings, or more Hive Guard, or a moderately-sized unit of toxic genestealers..

Siphen wrote:
jy2 - Something I'd love to see, whether it's against another player or playing yourself, actual models or full proxies, etc...I'd really like to see how your Tyranids would handle a completely uphill battle.
I expected this fight to be challenging and I was clearly wrong. Have you played any games against Mechanized Dark Eldar? Or maybe a random powerful army w/ allied Runes of Warding?

You, Reece, and Janthkins are making Tyranids look unbeatable (Obviously, in the hands of skilled players, most armies can look terrifying but you get the idea). What do they struggle with and, more importantly, how would they handle it?
I've done that twice in recent months (at the same bloody tournament), and got clobbered. Venom DE are just plain devastating to Tyranids; it's not interesting for either party. Unless you get a serious assist from terrain and the mission, it's about as lop-sided a battle as exists in 6e.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/13 05:25:59


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I would like to see a more competitive TAC guard build with an astropath in some sort of rematch. I really think the guard can do it but there is no doubt it will take a master plan and a bit more experience now that the nids are so resilient! This was an awesome game, I just feel too much luck went the nids way. I think the nids would have had a great edge but I just feel for those poor grunts lol.
-1st turn
-night fight
-vendettas trickling in
-Poor IG deployment, I just feel IG really should have hung as far back as possible once they knew they were going second and it was night fight. The Nid shooting would have been a non factor turn 1 and possibly less devastating turn 2 if they castled properly to prevent flyrant arcs.

Of course the tyranids could have had better powers as well! Glad to see the nids rocking it in 6th either way, it truly is their time in the sun and well deserved ha ha.

   
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Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Yeah, mech has definitely been nerfed in this edition. Though for guards, it isn't as bad as it is for some of the other armies. Guards just come out and start shooting. They don't need to assault like what some other armies do (i.e. grey knights, space wolves, chaos). However, a couple of things hurt them in this game:

- The inability to deploy the vendettas. Before in 5th, this would lead to a devastating alpha-strike which many armies couldn't recover from. If you could get first turn, scout those vendettas, drop off the melta/plasma-vets and then total carnage on Turn 1. And if you didn't get 1st turn, you either scout those vendettas for the 4+ cover or leave them in reserves.

- Mobility of the flyrants. Before, chimeras would be slightly more survivable because it would be hard for the much slower tyranids to try to maneuver and get side shots on the chimera's weak AV10 side armor. Not anymore for the flyrants. Now each flyrant is almost guaranteed a vehicle kill if they really go after the IG transports. And as soon as they demech a transport, now the biovores have a very juicy target in a bunched-up formation.

I think the key to the "new" guards is a hybrid mech/foot list. IMO, you NEED an infantry platoon to accompany a mech IG army, both for protection and to have more bodies/scoring units. At 2K, this is what I think will work:

CCS - 3x plasmas, Chimera - 150

Veterans - 3x Meltas, Chimera - 155
Veterans - 3x Meltas, Chimera - 155
Veterans - 3x Plasmas, Chimera - 170
Veterans - 3x Plasmas, Chimera - 170
PCS - 3x Flamers, Chimera - 100
5x Infantry Squads - Autocannons or Meltaguns, Meltabombs, 1x Commissar - 360

3x Vendettas - Heavy Bolters - 420

2x Manticores - 320


You can get some power axes for the blob if you cut some points, but I normally wouldn't run them as a chop-socky, fighty unit. But at less than 2K, I'm finding it quite hard to build a hybrid list that I like.



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Well one way I save points is by using alternate artillery. Basically instead of the manticore (multi-tool) I find a squad of 2 griffons amazing for all the reasons you like biovores. They are cheap, accurate, and annoying as feth. The manticore to me is too inconsistant now, and isn't the vehicle killer it once was, it generally knocks a HP off a vehicle and I feel like it was underwhelmingor it hits MEQ and they wouldnt have cared if it was a griffon or a manticore really. I then cut back on the vets slightly and only run one CCS, this usually frees up plenty of points for a platoon at 1750. I try to squeeze in a russ as well if possible.
My platoons are never more then 30+1 though, 50 is too much of an investment to be tied up, I'd rather get the Aegis with the savings and pull get back in the fight shenanigans or put them in the dettas as singles depending on the mission.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/13 05:51:16


   
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Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Siphen wrote:
Wow! I'm pretty surprised at how well that went for the Nids. As previously mentioned, I think having the first turn tipped it a little towards the Nids...but that was pretty brutal. Well played, sir.

jy2 - Something I'd love to see, whether it's against another player or playing yourself, actual models or full proxies, etc...I'd really like to see how your Tyranids would handle a completely uphill battle.
I expected this fight to be challenging and I was clearly wrong. Have you played any games against Mechanized Dark Eldar? Or maybe a random powerful army w/ allied Runes of Warding?

You, Reece, and Janthkins are making Tyranids look unbeatable (Obviously, in the hands of skilled players, most armies can look terrifying but you get the idea). What do they struggle with and, more importantly, how would they handle it?

Normally I don't mind playing against some proxies, but an entire army of proxies is something I prefer not to batrep. I really would like to play against a competitive DE list but there just aren't too many in our area. Definitely no one that plays pure venom-spam. Most of the DE players here play more of a mixed army.

As for RoW Eldar, there's actually a very good player here with a very good Eldar/Dark Eldar list....Frankie from Team Zero Comp. I played against him at the Golden Throne tournament but at that time, I brought my necrons. In a game where I thought I would win big, I actually barely won. I plan on playing his Dark Harliestar again though and with my bugs the next time I go to Frontline Gaming.

As for a brutal list, I got one battle report along the pipeline. You know how devastating daemons have been recently in tournament play? Well, I have a test game coming up against a Fateweaver/Masque army with 24 flamers and 23 screamers (and commandeered by me!). It's going to be a fun and challenging game for my nids. If they can do well against this list, then I really think that my bugs have to potential to win even the bigger tournaments. (Well, this daemons list...and the necron airforce....and venom-spam....and long-fang/rune-priest space wolves).



@Janthkin

It is not so much a which-unit-is-better deal between gargoyles and biovores. Both are good and both have its uses. It is more of a playstyle preference. You prefer fast, pressure units such as genestealers, ymgarls and gargoyles. I prefer shooty units such as dakka-flyrants, more hive guards and biovores, with gargoyles used more as a screening unit that can provide the occassional kick to the groins.

As for DE, terrain definitely plays a huge factor in the game. So is going first so that you can cast psychic powers before taking their alpha-strike. You need both to have a chance against venom-spam. Otherwise, it can really be a lop-sided game as I have yet to experience.


 Red Corsair wrote:
I would like to see a more competitive TAC guard build with an astropath in some sort of rematch. I really think the guard can do it but there is no doubt it will take a master plan and a bit more experience now that the nids are so resilient! This was an awesome game, I just feel too much luck went the nids way. I think the nids would have had a great edge but I just feel for those poor grunts lol.
-1st turn
-night fight
-vendettas trickling in
-Poor IG deployment, I just feel IG really should have hung as far back as possible once they knew they were going second and it was night fight. The Nid shooting would have been a non factor turn 1 and possibly less devastating turn 2 if they castled properly to prevent flyrant arcs.

Of course the tyranids could have had better powers as well! Glad to see the nids rocking it in 6th either way, it truly is their time in the sun and well deserved ha ha.

I will probably be playing against guards in a couple of weeks, though I think he plays more of a foot-list with leman russ support. Variety is the spice of life. Yeah, thery can definitely put the hurt on bugs. This game was probably just an off-night for them.

Night-fight didn't really play a major factor in this game. 1 flyrant was within 12" of the chimera out in the open and the other was within stealth range of a chimera out in the open. Hive guards don't care about Night-fight. The only units affected were the biovores, who didn't hit anything on Turn 1 anyways. The only thing it really affected was the manticore having to shoot at the hive guards instead of the biovores on Turn 1.

I was thinking about adding an astropath, but then opted for more guns (plasmas and heavy bolters) instead. The Astropath definitely would have helped.

As for deployment, yeah I probably could have done a better job, but I am not so sure hanging back would have been ideal. That is because guard firepower (i.e. plasmas) is rather limited as well. Moreover, it puts them out of position relative to the objectives. That would have given bugs a larger advantage than they already had.


 Red Corsair wrote:
Well one way I save points is by using alternate artillery. Basically instead of the manticore (multi-tool) I find a squad of 2 griffons amazing for all the reasons you like biovores. They are cheap, accurate, and annoying as feth. The manticore to me is too inconsistant now, and isn't the vehicle killer it once was, it generally knocks a HP off a vehicle and I feel like it was underwhelmingor it hits MEQ and they wouldnt have cared if it was a griffon or a manticore really. I then cut back on the vets slightly and only run one CCS, this usually frees up plenty of points for a platoon at 1750. I try to squeeze in a russ as well if possible.
My platoons are never more then 30+1 though, 50 is too much of an investment to be tied up, I'd rather get the Aegis with the savings and pull get back in the fight shenanigans or put them in the dettas as singles depending on the mission.

Hmmm....interesting. I like it! Perhaps I will try dual-griffons next time. The size of the blob squad would depend on how much points I have left, but giving them a ADL may actually be a good idea. It'll give the tanks 4+ cover as well!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/13 14:54:01



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Yea I may be way off, but I just find that with bugs, the burden of advancing is on them, and I would want to stall turn 1 and two until I can coordinate with my fliers. This is why an astropath would have been nice. I felt night fight was more of a hit to the guard which is why I felt their shooting flubbed turn 1 but again, I wasn't right there so maybe not. Either way it still looked like a blast!

I think you would have fun with some griffons, I feel they are very underused in 6th. I have actually contemplated bringing two batteries of 2 lol. They are so inexpensive, highly accurate barrage and s6 ap4 is nothing to turn your nose up at

   
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Wow, looks like that hurt for the guard. But you did manage to kill all the synapse even if it was late and that's nothing to turn your nose at. Thanks for the report JY2 great as always.
   
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Louisiana

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I may be way off, but I just find that with bugs, the burden of advancing is on them, and I would want to stall turn 1 and two until I can coordinate with my fliers. This is why an astropath would have been nice. I felt night fight was more of a hit to the guard which is why I felt their shooting flubbed turn 1 but again, I wasn't right there so maybe not. Either way it still looked like a blast!

I think you would have fun with some griffons, I feel they are very underused in 6th. I have actually contemplated bringing two batteries of 2 lol. They are so inexpensive, highly accurate barrage and s6 ap4 is nothing to turn your nose up at


I know a guy who uses a single griffon in an artillery battery, plus 2 basilisks. The griffon is twin-linked so guides in the initial barrage, then the basilisks bring s9 ap3 pain. It's pretty scary and effective.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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 tetrisphreak wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I may be way off, but I just find that with bugs, the burden of advancing is on them, and I would want to stall turn 1 and two until I can coordinate with my fliers. This is why an astropath would have been nice. I felt night fight was more of a hit to the guard which is why I felt their shooting flubbed turn 1 but again, I wasn't right there so maybe not. Either way it still looked like a blast!

I think you would have fun with some griffons, I feel they are very underused in 6th. I have actually contemplated bringing two batteries of 2 lol. They are so inexpensive, highly accurate barrage and s6 ap4 is nothing to turn your nose up at


I know a guy who uses a single griffon in an artillery battery, plus 2 basilisks. The griffon is twin-linked so guides in the initial barrage, then the basilisks bring s9 ap3 pain. It's pretty scary and effective.

Thats actually a hilarious combo.

   
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Reedsburg, WI

This whole time I am thinking...why are you using the gargoyles to screen rather than the 10 man gaunt squads? Why not jump and run, spreading out into that big crator which with night stealth would have been 4+... Then I saw the objectives way in your backfield.

I usually deploy my objectives closer to the center where the bulk of my army is or is heading. I hate spreading my army out due to it's relatively low speed. Is there a reason you like to spread them out? I wouldn't think an IG player would forgo placing an objective in his backfield just to stick one in yours.

Things I tend to forget: Using Swarmies prefered enemy/furious charge ability in the shooting phase, remembering to make my opponent take fear tests in CC, remembering that gargoyles auto wound on a to-hit roll of 6, and taking it will not die checks at the end of my turn.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/14 01:20:05


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San Jose, CA

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I may be way off, but I just find that with bugs, the burden of advancing is on them, and I would want to stall turn 1 and two until I can coordinate with my fliers. This is why an astropath would have been nice. I felt night fight was more of a hit to the guard which is why I felt their shooting flubbed turn 1 but again, I wasn't right there so maybe not. Either way it still looked like a blast!

I think you would have fun with some griffons, I feel they are very underused in 6th. I have actually contemplated bringing two batteries of 2 lol. They are so inexpensive, highly accurate barrage and s6 ap4 is nothing to turn your nose up at

There used to be a guard player here who is pretty good. He actually beat my space wolves at the Hard Boyz 3 years ago. Anyways, he normally runs 2 manticores and 2 griffons in his list. The griffons weren't spectacular, but they did alright. BTW, too bad he moved, as he was starting to play Dark Eldar as well. Would have been nice to play against his DE now.


SGASheppard wrote:
Wow, looks like that hurt for the guard. But you did manage to kill all the synapse even if it was late and that's nothing to turn your nose at. Thanks for the report JY2 great as always.

You're welcome. I'm sure bugs won't perform like this consistently against a good guard army. Today was just not their (IG's) day.


 tetrisphreak wrote:

I know a guy who uses a single griffon in an artillery battery, plus 2 basilisks. The griffon is twin-linked so guides in the initial barrage, then the basilisks bring s9 ap3 pain. It's pretty scary and effective.

Yeah, I've seen that as well. A griffon paired up with a basilisk to get the re-rolls. But I have to wonder....if that was so incredibly effective, why don't more of the competitive guard players use that combo? Hmmm.....


 wyomingfox wrote:
This whole time I am thinking...why are you using the gargoyles to screen rather than the 10 man gaunt squads? Why not jump and run, spreading out into that big crator which with night stealth would have been 4+... Then I saw the objectives way in your backfield.

I usually deploy my objectives closer to the center where the bulk of my army is or is heading. I hate spreading my army out due to it's relatively low speed. Is there a reason you like to spread them out? I wouldn't think an IG player would forgo placing an objective in his backfield just to stick one in yours.

Things I tend to forget: Using Swarmies prefered enemy/furious charge ability in the shooting phase, remembering to make my opponent take fear tests in CC, remembering that gargoyles auto wound on a to-hit roll of 6, and taking it will not die checks at the end of my turn.

According to the BAO rules, you place your opponent's objectives in the Scouring. That's why guards placed the tyranid objectives way in their backfield and the bugs placed the IG objectives as far forwards as possible. As for the deployment of the gargoyles, that really depends on the opponent. In this case, I was trying to draw fire to them to spare all the special weapons against my TMC's. I was forcing IG to have to deal with my gargoyles rather than to focus on my tervigons which is why I placed them up front as a fast screening unit.

Yeah, I totally forgot about Fear and Hammer of Wrath attacks in many of my games (this one included). I also oftentimes forget about It Will Not Die checks as well.





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