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torblind wrote:
SURPRISE: The chimera sped ahead passed the center building, unlloaded two small plasma squads that killed my cryptek (their regiment bonus let them target characters).

Only part I see as an issue is that units normally disembark before the transport moves, what let him disembark the plasma after the Chimera moved?

Hi guys, I have a small 1000pts tournament and I'm struggling to fit anything decent under it. The tournament uses Chapter Approved missions.

It either turns into a silver tide of warriors or I run short of points too quickly.


My thought is that enemies will have no real good targets for their weapons as anything low-strength suffers to wound T6 and anything high-strength either stops at the wraith invuln or the DDA QS. To save my wraiths from smite mortal wounds one of the DDAs would deploy ahead of them and tentatively advance with them. CCB can MWBD itself and with LF+Enduring will is a pain to deal with.

Enemies should be focusing everything they got on the DDAs giving me time to move in and bring the C'tan, CCB and Wraiths to the fight.

If you want to keep your wraith safe from smites i suggest scarabs. They are dirt cheap and have lots of wounds. A DDA is way to expensive as a smite shield. The CCB cant MWBD itself, its not INFANTRY.

I'm also not sure why you're going Sautekh; the DDAs will want to sit still to maximize their firepower anyways, and you're not using the Hyperlogical Strategist trait (arguably one of the stronger reasons to go Sautekh).

Maybe consider Nihilakh to make your DDAs more reliable, or Nephrekh to give your Wraiths more speed?

Either way, I think your list has a lot of "big" things, but nothing that's overtly threatening, and you lack numbers to split off and take multiple objectives, with any significant firepower to shoot anything off the board (the DDAs are going to only really be useful against single model targets), so until you can get the Wraiths to engage, you're banking entirely on opportunity shots from DDAs and the C'Tan for mortal wounds for ranged damage.

Also, Enduring Will is actually a terrible Warlord trait for a CCB, since it works counter to Quantum Shielding. By reducing all incoming damage by 1, you're making it harder to pass your Quantum Shielding rolls.

I would probably bring something like this to a 1000 point event:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's some nice blue you got going on.

I'll read the report later but seriously excellent paintwork.

Thanks! Walked around a tad lighter at work today thanks to you! The scythes patterns are stolen/motivated from very similarly painted scythes, easily found on Pinterest or Google images (only they're grey brownish bit with the same light gradient) I just adapted to my blue theme.

At a distance and from above they do pop

 iGuy91 wrote:
To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.

Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.

I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together

This is true, it was also about playing the regiment of his, rerolling hits all over the place woth orders, which would have been nice with all my -1 to hit. But yeah, he could have placed him away from where my scythes would blast mortal wounds, but both DDAs would have done a number on him most certainly.

TBs.. yup, mine are a year old, still only half finished projects.. but I'm really softening up to the idea of having them dirt cheap and in large numbers. Very versatile and still quite shooty. 18 wounds T5 with some 3+ and some 5++ and RP and -1 to hit will likely make him shoot something else first.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Draco765 wrote:

torblind wrote:
SURPRISE: The chimera sped ahead passed the center building, unlloaded two small plasma squads that killed my cryptek (their regiment bonus let them target characters).

Only part I see as an issue is that units normally disembark before the transport moves, what let him disembark the plasma after the Chimera moved?

I probably don't remember that bit right. I'm pretty sure he did it right, was already quite near the middle the turn before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DV8 wrote:
I'm also not sure why you're going Sautekh; the DDAs will want to sit still to maximize their firepower anyways, and you're not using the Hyperlogical Strategist trait (arguably one of the stronger reasons to go Sautekh).

Maybe consider Nihilakh to make your DDAs more reliable, or Nephrekh to give your Wraiths more speed?

Either way, I think your list has a lot of "big" things, but nothing that's overtly threatening, and you lack numbers to split off and take multiple objectives, with any significant firepower to shoot anything off the board (the DDAs are going to only really useful against single model targets), so until you can get the Wraiths to engage, you're banking entirely on opportunity shots from DDAs and the C'Tan for mortal wounds for ranged damage.

Also, Enduring Will is actually a terrible Warlord trait for a CCB, since it works counter to Quantum Shielding. By reducing all incoming damage by 1, you're making it harder to pass your Quantum Shielding rolls.

I would probably bring something like this to a 1000 point event:

Spoiler:

Outrider Detachment: 4 CPs
Dynastic Code: Nephrekh

Destroyer Lord
- Warlord (Enduring Will)
- Warscythe, Phylactery (Relic: Nanoscarab Casket)

Cryptek
- Staff of Light, Chronometron

5 Destroyers
- 4 Gauss Cannons
- 1 Heavy Gauss Cannon (I'd almost be inclined to swap this for another Gauss Cannon, but I think the redundant AT will help when you roll poorly for the DDA's shots)

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

Doomsday Ark
- Doomsday Cannon, 2 Gauss Flayer Arrays

The Destroyer Lord is incredibly durable and will be an unkillable beatstick (just roll those 4+'s), Cryptek babysits the Destroyers, and Tomb Blades zip around taking objectives, using the extra mobility if they need the guaranteed speed boost.

I probably wouldn't take more than 1 DDA; 1000 points isn't a lot of room to play with, and spending almost 40% of your points on 2 of them kind of feels inefficient.

I'd go Destroyers over Wraiths at 1000 points simply because Wraiths need to be in combat to do anything. The Destroyers will be able to apply pressure from turn 1 and start removing enemy units off the board.

They fixed the CCB QS ruling to our advantage in the last FAQ. First QS then reduce by 1

torblind wrote:
They fixed the CCB QS ruling to our advantage in the last FAQ. First QS then reduce by 1

Do you have a link to this FAQ? The one I'm still seeing on Warhammer Community does not mention this.

 DV8 wrote:

torblind wrote:
They fixed the CCB QS ruling to our advantage in the last FAQ. First QS then reduce by 1

Do you have a link to this FAQ? The one I'm still seeing on Warhammer Community does not mention this.

I'm on the phone only. There are a number of FAQs that apply to us. It was one of the smaller ones.

 DV8 wrote:

torblind wrote:
They fixed the CCB QS ruling to our advantage in the last FAQ. First QS then reduce by 1

Do you have a link to this FAQ? The one I'm still seeing on Warhammer Community does not mention this.

Its in chapter approved 2017 errata. Typical GW, you have to look everywhere for updates.

Q: I choose my Overlord on a Catacomb Command Barge to be
my Warlord, and give him the Enduring Will trait. He then gets
shot by a lascannon that hits, wounds, isn’t saved and causes
4 points of damage. How do I apply Quantum Shielding and
Enduring Will?
A: Resolve the Quantum Shielding ability first. If any
damage is suffered, the Enduring Will trait then applies.

Wow GW, couldn't just format it when you updated it and moved that to the Codex FAQ, eh?

 iGuy91 wrote:
To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.

Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.

I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together

I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.

Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.

I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together

I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.

I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'

Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'

Then they shut up.

Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.

Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.

I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together

I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.

I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'

Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'

Then they shut up.

Want to REALLY shut someone up? Ask them kindly to put together your Triarch Stalker for you.

They'll never accept another favor from you again.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.

Run it as nihilakh, put it within 3" of an objective, and play reclaim a lost empire on it twice, giving it a 3+ inv sv. You can play the stratagem twice because its at the end of your turn, which is outside of a phase. Also run a double battalion to get the CP needed. Works better with a tvault though, giving it a 2+ inv sv.

Hey Guys,

Sooo how do we fight against Dark Eldar? Most of my Games against them were complete and total losses . Most of the Time my 2 DDAS have enormous trouble to destroy atleast one Raider or Ravager.
My Destroyers (6) "could" deal alot of damgage if they would survive T1 or get in Ranger. Whenever they are in Range they destroy 1-2 Raiders and die afterwards. My Wratihs have proven to be quite situational but are very vulnerable to poison weapons.

Could Tomb Blades or maybe a Monolith do the Trick? Or just throwing more Warriors into the Breach?

I mostly play nihilakh or mephrit.

Am i missing sth? Any help would be really appreciated.

Thanks Guys!

Manous wrote:
Hey Guys,

Sooo how do we fight against Dark Eldar? Most of my Games against them were complete and total losses . Most of the Time my 2 DDAS have enormous trouble to destroy atleast one Raider or Ravager.
My Destroyers (6) "could" deal alot of damgage if they would survive T1 or get in Ranger. Whenever they are in Range they destroy 1-2 Raiders and die afterwards. My Wratihs have proven to be quite situational but are very vulnerable to poison weapons.

Could Tomb Blades or maybe a Monolith do the Trick? Or just throwing more Warriors into the Breach?

I mostly play nihilakh or mephrit.

Am i missing sth? Any help would be really appreciated.

Thanks Guys!

Pretty sure based on my math that 6 destroyers can destroy 2 of those vehicles a turn splitting fire. Issue is keeping them alive.
How best to do that? I suggest Nephrek, and putting them in deep strike.
DDAs are kind of a waste vs DE. They don't have anything high armor that cares about AP-5. Honestly, you'd be almost better spamming a whole bunch more tesla immortals.
Mephrit is also a waste vs DE. they don't have armor. -1 AP is useless vs them, and they will be able to stay out of rapid fire if they wish.

Pretty sure based on my math that 6 destroyers can destroy 2 of those vehicles a turn splitting fire. Issue is keeping them alive.
How best to do that? I suggest Nephrek, and putting them in deep strike.
DDAs are kind of a waste vs DE. They don't have anything high armor that cares about AP-5. Honestly, you'd be almost better spamming a whole bunch more tesla immortals.

Tanks for the help.
I thought about Gauss Immortals because of the high amount of -1 to hit.
Most of the time there are about 20 Immortals and 20 Warriors in my lists, they die very ( I mean very very) quick to the poison or the Shredders. Cover is more or less situative at best because his transports can ignore it.

But i could swap the Arks... Any Suggestions?

Manous wrote:

Pretty sure based on my math that 6 destroyers can destroy 2 of those vehicles a turn splitting fire. Issue is keeping them alive.
How best to do that? I suggest Nephrek, and putting them in deep strike.
DDAs are kind of a waste vs DE. They don't have anything high armor that cares about AP-5. Honestly, you'd be almost better spamming a whole bunch more tesla immortals.

Tanks for the help.
I thought about Gauss Immortals because of the high amount of -1 to hit.
Most of the time there are about 20 Immortals and 20 Warriors in my lists, they die very ( I mean very very) quick to the poison or the Shredders. Cover is more or less situative at best because his transports can ignore it.

But i could swap the Arks... Any Suggestions?

Well, remember, with MWBD, and then using Phaeron's will you can buff 2 tesla squads to ensure they proc on 6s as usual.
I mean, the Arks give you great range, but they really don't need to sit still. They can (and should) move around to get their gauss arrays into use.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.

Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.

I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together

I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.

I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'

Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'

Then they shut up.

Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.

Yeah, that's what I noticed too. Super easy to paint, but a complete ass to assemble. Especially the vehicles. I like the Arks, they are nice models visually, but they are a chore to assemble. I would have preferred a more geometric design, like the monolith.
Even the warriors are horrible to assemble. They keep bending over.
The plastic immortals are surprisingly nice though. Everything fits together, and the cable stops the model from bending over like the warriors.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, that's what I noticed too. Super easy to paint, but a complete ass to assemble. Especially the vehicles.

Its one of the reasons I chose to convert all of mine!

 DV8 wrote:

Spoiler:

I would probably bring something like this to a 1000 point event:


Outrider Detachment: 4 CPs
Dynastic Code: Nephrekh

Destroyer Lord
- Warlord (Enduring Will)
- Warscythe, Phylactery (Relic: Nanoscarab Casket)

Cryptek
- Staff of Light, Chronometron

5 Destroyers
- 4 Gauss Cannons
- 1 Heavy Gauss Cannon (I'd almost be inclined to swap this for another Gauss Cannon, but I think the redundant AT will help when you roll poorly for the DDA's shots)

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

Doomsday Ark
- Doomsday Cannon, 2 Gauss Flayer Arrays

The Destroyer Lord is incredibly durable and will be an unkillable beatstick (just roll those 4+'s), Cryptek babysits the Destroyers, and Tomb Blades zip around taking objectives, using the extra mobility if they need the guaranteed speed boost.

I probably wouldn't take more than 1 DDA; 1000 points isn't a lot of room to play with, and spending almost 40% of your points on 2 of them kind of feels inefficient.

I'd go Destroyers over Wraiths at 1000 points simply because Wraiths need to be in combat to do anything. The Destroyers will be able to apply pressure from turn 1 and start removing enemy units off the board.

Thanks, that list you propose sounds nasty but I don't have a lot of experience running small squads of Tomb Blades like this. Do you keep them at maximum distance for survivability and just go for far off objectives that the enemy can't get to or do you trust their -1/T5 to keep them alive?

arhurt wrote:

 DV8 wrote:

Spoiler:

I would probably bring something like this to a 1000 point event:


Outrider Detachment: 4 CPs
Dynastic Code: Nephrekh

Destroyer Lord
- Warlord (Enduring Will)
- Warscythe, Phylactery (Relic: Nanoscarab Casket)

Cryptek
- Staff of Light, Chronometron

5 Destroyers
- 4 Gauss Cannons
- 1 Heavy Gauss Cannon (I'd almost be inclined to swap this for another Gauss Cannon, but I think the redundant AT will help when you roll poorly for the DDA's shots)

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

3 Tomb Blades
- Tesla Carbines, Shieldvanes

Doomsday Ark
- Doomsday Cannon, 2 Gauss Flayer Arrays

The Destroyer Lord is incredibly durable and will be an unkillable beatstick (just roll those 4+'s), Cryptek babysits the Destroyers, and Tomb Blades zip around taking objectives, using the extra mobility if they need the guaranteed speed boost.

I probably wouldn't take more than 1 DDA; 1000 points isn't a lot of room to play with, and spending almost 40% of your points on 2 of them kind of feels inefficient.

I'd go Destroyers over Wraiths at 1000 points simply because Wraiths need to be in combat to do anything. The Destroyers will be able to apply pressure from turn 1 and start removing enemy units off the board.

Thanks, that list you propose sounds nasty but I don't have a lot of experience running small squads of Tomb Blades like this. Do you keep them at maximum distance for survivability and just go for far off objectives that the enemy can't get to or do you trust their -1/T5 to keep them alive?

Difficult to say. I'm a fairly aggressive but relatively risk-averse player, so I tend to over-commit resources in order to minimize the likelihood of bad dice rolls impacting my game plans (plus I tend to be fairly adaptable, so I love mobility in my lists as it plays right into my style).

Tomb Blades, combined with their high mobility, are better suited to, as you say, keeping the enemy at a distance and maximizing their advantages. Tesla (without Mephrit) is just as effective at 1" as it is at 24", so you're better to keep the enemy at arm's length so that you're avoiding charges and rapid fire ranges. The -1 to hit and T5 are advantages, but you're only 6 wounds, and any multi-damage weapons will eat through your Tomb Blades.

But if they're firing those weapons at your TBs, they're not targeting your Destroyers and your DDA, which you use to your advantage. Target priority will depend on specific objectives and the opponent, but if I'm looking to keep my TB alive for objectives, then maybe I'll prioritize units that can immediately threaten them; clearing out units that might be too close to an objective for comfort.

Conversely, if they're focusing on your Destroyers or DDA, they're leaving your TBs to run amuck and create havoc. You can use that to your advantage to grab those objectives, and don't forget that with Nephrekh, you auto-advance 6". Sometimes it's worth it to advance, losing Tesla proc, but being able to grab those distant objectives.

The Destroyers should also screen for the Destroyer Lord, who will aggressively hunt down units and either destroy them or just engage them in combat. At 1000 points, I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot that's a real threat to him without significant points investment. And at the very least, he's very very difficult to kill and makes a great tarpit. You can use that to your advantage. And by having your Destroyers + DLord controlling the center of the board, you're able to threaten any position.

That said, if I feel that by sacrificing a TB squad to take an objective that will swing the objective points heavily in my favor, I will easily take that trade if it will secure me the game.

I got another game against a pretty competitive Admech list this Friday. Think this list will do the trick?
I expect a Cawl Castle, with infiltrating elctropriests. This seem to work?

The List

That's really insightful. Have you tried running particle beamers instead of Tesla? I know their damage output is low but could shave off points for an extra destroyer.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.

Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.

I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together

I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.

I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'

Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'

Then they shut up.

Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.

Yeah, that's what I noticed too. Super easy to paint, but a complete ass to assemble. Especially the vehicles. I like the Arks, they are nice models visually, but they are a chore to assemble. I would have preferred a more geometric design, like the monolith.
Even the warriors are horrible to assemble. They keep bending over.
The plastic immortals are surprisingly nice though. Everything fits together, and the cable stops the model from bending over like the warriors.

The cables didn't stop all my Tesla Immortals bending right over; the carbines were front-heavy enough to require a lot of babysitting to get them the model halves to bond in a halfway decent way. It's ironic that, given their entire shtick, my Necrons are the one army I own where the models consistently fall apart. I remember when I first started them, and there wasn't a single game night or trip I made with them that didn't end in bits coming off, mainly things like heads and those flimsy little pieces at the ends of tesla carbines and gauss flayers--I've decided not to bother adding them to the end of my carbines now--but waist joints also enjoy coming apart, because who'd have guessed trying to get a small ball to adhere inside a cavity massively oversized for it would result in a weak joint? (Well, anyone who plays Necrons, I guess. )

I dread the day my Destroyers start falling apart, because they were another pain to put together without essentially building scaffolding around each one.


On a different topic, I took my 1.5k Destroyer list out for its first run--and my first game of 40k in 6 years--last week, and got an overwhelming victory against an admittedly more fluffy than competitive CSM list, but also learned that they've moved to 2k at that store since I last played there those 6 years ago. So I've been having a look at how best to move up to it and I just... can't. Not without looking at Forgeworld/stupidly huge and expensive models, or models that I dislike (DDAs) or are noted to be very difficult to build (Tomb Blades, though DDAs also fit here). It's also the point where Immortals become very difficult to justify taking outside of 3x 5 for battalion CP, and I really like Tesla Immortals--plus I've put together 30 of the fethers and I'll be damned if I'm letting that time go to waste.

It feels to me like Necrons at 2k is a downgrade for me in just about every aspect: fewer models I actually like the look of and like to use; more models I dislike but are tactically necessary. I'm struggling to build anything without at least one DDA, for example, if not two, and the way some of our things are costed makes trying to fit things in around each other can be awkward; I've got one 2k list written up with 7 spare points, because there's nothing I can actually buy for less than 9.

How much of a tight spot are 'Crons in at 2k? Can I get away with something a little less optimal for the sake of including models I actually like?

Crons work pretty well at 2k in my mind. I haven't yet played a game in 8th with my crons, index or codex where I felt completely overmatched at 2k, so I don't buy the doom and gloom, outside of bleeding edge competitive play, I think we manage.

Honestly, you just listed most of the best units in the dex.
Tesla Immortals backed by MWDB, DDAs, Destroyers, and Tomb Blades are arguably our best (Non-Forge World) units.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Honestly, you just listed most of the best units in the dex.
Tesla Immortals backed by MWDB, DDAs, Destroyers, and Tomb Blades are arguably our best (Non-Forge World) units.

I know I did, my issue is that, of those, I only really like the Immortals and Destroyers, and even then there's a bit of disagreement I've seen in this thread on whether the Immortals are best run as full units or as MSU at 2k. I like the Destroyer Lord--Rule of Cool--and I like Wraiths, so I want to find ways of keeping them in. Scarabs are fun, and I like the physical look of Spyders, though unlike the Scarabs, Wraiths and even the D Lord at a push, Spyders are too far down the 'trash' list for me to consider using them. I'm also a fan of Annihilation Barges and the CCB, but they're both far too overcosted and fragile, and even a Transcendent C'tan seems fun in concept, if a bit too random for its cost.

I can make a 1.5k list well enough using only things I like, but upscaling it to 2k without having to include things I'm not all that fond of is proving diffcult, unless I want something disjointed that doesn't really have a focus.

EDIT: For example, the best compromise list I've come up with has 2 DDAs in it, which is already an entire carry case by themselves even without having to build the damn things. Taking them out leaves me very bare of AT, and even removing one leaves me with a job trying to use up the free points, given 193 is a very finicky amount. It's nearly 4 Destroyers; 3 and a half Wraiths; 11 and a half Immortals; 5 and a half shieldvaned Tomb Blades; nearly 15 Scarabs, etc. None of those is enough by themselves for a worthwhile unit at 2k except the Immortals and the Scarabs, but then I've got 1.5 Immortals left over to try and spend the points of, or altogether far too many scarabs since I already invested beforehand. I suppose the Wraiths *might* be okay as Nihilak objective campers, but then I've half a wraith to spend. So I could buy 10 Immortals, but I've already got the 15-30 I need for a Battalion. I've got a choice of several too-small units, a potentialy barely-usable unit of Wraiths, or more scarabs than you'll ever need; so I start to look for units to top up, but they're all already full. So I look for things to cut to try and get something else, and then I have to cut other things, rejig the entire list, and I end up realising that, at the end of it all, the second DDA was still probably the best tactical choice after all.

It's just very awkward for me.

arhurt wrote:That's really insightful. Have you tried running particle beamers instead of Tesla? I know their damage output is low but could shave off points for an extra destroyer.

With Destroyers and Doomsday Ark(s), I typically have my heavy firepower handled. I don't like running my Tomb Blades too close to the enemy, and I need volume of firepower for handling larger enemy units, so I find Tesla for 4x S5 shots with the potential for extra hits is better than the 3x S6 shots you'd get from a Particle Caster. But your mileage may vary; try mixing it up and see what works best for you.

One caveat I do want to point out is that, in my mind, Tesla is a far better weapon than Particle Beamers, especially in the kind of list I suggested. By downgrading them to Particles, you are making the Tomb Blades less effective and as a result, less of a threat, pushing more of the priority onto your Destroyers and DDA. You have to consider whether that trade off is worth 1 extra Destroyer.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Spoiler:

On a different topic, I took my 1.5k Destroyer list out for its first run--and my first game of 40k in 6 years--last week, and got an overwhelming victory against an admittedly more fluffy than competitive CSM list, but also learned that they've moved to 2k at that store since I last played there those 6 years ago. So I've been having a look at how best to move up to it and I just... can't. Not without looking at Forgeworld/stupidly huge and expensive models, or models that I dislike (DDAs) or are noted to be very difficult to build (Tomb Blades, though DDAs also fit here). It's also the point where Immortals become very difficult to justify taking outside of 3x 5 for battalion CP, and I really like Tesla Immortals--plus I've put together 30 of the fethers and I'll be damned if I'm letting that time go to waste.

It feels to me like Necrons at 2k is a downgrade for me in just about every aspect: fewer models I actually like the look of and like to use; more models I dislike but are tactically necessary. I'm struggling to build anything without at least one DDA, for example, if not two, and the way some of our things are costed makes trying to fit things in around each other can be awkward; I've got one 2k list written up with 7 spare points, because there's nothing I can actually buy for less than 9.

How much of a tight spot are 'Crons in at 2k? Can I get away with something a little less optimal for the sake of including models I actually like?

There are a couple of ways to go about building a 2k list, IMO. And I do want to preface this that I don't play big tournaments, and understand that Necrons are (as a book) solidly a middle of the pack book. It comes down to the players to make it work for the specific event, the scenario, and their playstyle.

I feel that often-times trying to cram a Necron Battalion is a bit of a trap, and you end up paying an unnecessary tax to try and stack CPs, because of the notion that Necrons are a CP-thirsty army.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with running 30x Tesla Immortals; combined with MWBD and The Phaeron's Will, they become incredible damage dealers. But to make them really effective, you need to support them with the right combination of buffs, so you'll more than likely be building your army around this core, and including units that can properly support them.

One of the thematic problems with Necrons is that their units are hyper-focused. They tend to do one thing very well, and nothing else. Unfortunately, DDAs fill the role of AT very well, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a unit that (for the points) will do it as effectively, while remaining as durable. Heavy Destroyers are an alternative, but nowhere near as effective. If you can convert Wraiths to make a Tomb Sentinel, they can perform the job quite admirably (and trade potentially high damage output for damage consistency, since they're Damage 3 vs the Damage D6 of the DDA). But if you cut out the DDA, you're going to be hard pressed to find something that can match it's potential damage output, point for point (and at 2k, 2x DDA is usually recommended so you can average out 7 shots between the two for some consistency).

Tomb Blades are fantastic, but not necessarily required. They perform the same function as Tesla Immortals, but trade sheer damage output (they're not infantry, so can't be buffed with MWBD) for speed and durability (especially with the -1 to hit and T5).

Destroyers are still always going to be solid work-horses, so trying to combine 2x Destroyer Units with a core of 30 Tesla Immortals, and filling the gaps where necessary could give you a solid 2k list.

The bottom line is that yes, you can build a good list bringing what you want and, assuming competent generalship, do decently middle of the pack (meaning you perform average comparatively). But when you build these lists, you have to at least acknowledge that by not bringing units like the DDA and taking sub-optimal choices, you are deliberately hamstringing yourself from more efficient-performing choices.

Might I ask how you're approaching your list-building, and what your lists look like?

There's two reasons I can think of why you want to get particle beamers

1) You're short on points.

2) You're planning on advancing a lot. A particle beamer is a bit more effective when you are advancing than a tesla cannon, as the tesla cannon cannot proc its extra hits on an advance.

 DV8 wrote:
I don't like running my Tomb Blades too close to the enemy, and I need volume of firepower for handling larger enemy units, so I find Tesla for 4x S5 shots with the potential for extra hits is better than the 3x S6 shots you'd get from a Particle Caster. But your mileage may vary; try mixing it up and see what works best for you.

Oh please, charge my mephrit tesla tomb blades They are insanely good when overwatching. A 6 model unit has 24 shots. Thats 12 hits on average with S5 AP-1 D1 On my turn i can fallback and shoot again

 DV8 wrote:

One caveat I do want to point out is that, in my mind, Tesla is a far better weapon than Particle Beamers, especially in the kind of list I suggested. By downgrading them to Particles, you are making the Tomb Blades less effective and as a result, less of a threat, pushing more of the priority onto your Destroyers and DDA. You have to consider whether that trade off is worth 1 extra Destroyer.

I agree. Tesla is better than beamers. The only advantage with beamers is you get more models, making it harder to wipe out the unit. 6 tesla tomb blades are 192 pts and have 24 shots, 8 beamer tomb blades are also 192 pts and also have 24 shots. And you have S6 instead of S5.

Avatar 720 wrote:
I feel that often-times trying to cram a Necron Battalion is a bit of a trap, and you end up paying an unnecessary tax to try and stack CPs, because of the notion that Necrons are a CP-thirsty army.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with running 30x Tesla Immortals; combined with MWBD and The Phaeron's Will, they become incredible damage dealers. But to make them really effective, you need to support them with the right combination of buffs, so you'll more than likely be building your army around this core, and including units that can properly support them.

Necrons arent really CP hungry. If you use imotekh you dont need to spend 1 CP for phaerons will each turn, and he gives you 1 additional CP. Destroyers need EP each turn, thats 1 CP. Solar pulse is nice to remove cover, also only 1 CP.

 p5freak wrote:

 DV8 wrote:
I don't like running my Tomb Blades too close to the enemy, and I need volume of firepower for handling larger enemy units, so I find Tesla for 4x S5 shots with the potential for extra hits is better than the 3x S6 shots you'd get from a Particle Caster. But your mileage may vary; try mixing it up and see what works best for you.

Oh please, charge my mephrit tesla tomb blades They are insanely good when overwatching. A 6 model unit has 24 shots. Thats 12 hits on average with S5 AP-1 D1 On my turn i can fallback and shoot again

Indeed! If you run something akin to a silver tide, or just two immortal units close to each other, Tom blades are a very nice CC screen, to prevent your enemy from locking your infantry in CC. Drop them down in front of your Mephrit Warrior blob, force your enemy to go through them first (unless they Fly), kill half in overwatch, then fly away and have the warriors light them up, and RP to recoup from CC losses.

 p5freak wrote:

 DV8 wrote:

One caveat I do want to point out is that, in my mind, Tesla is a far better weapon than Particle Beamers, especially in the kind of list I suggested. By downgrading them to Particles, you are making the Tomb Blades less effective and as a result, less of a threat, pushing more of the priority onto your Destroyers and DDA. You have to consider whether that trade off is worth 1 extra Destroyer.

I agree. Tesla is better than beamers. The only advantage with beamers is you get more models, making it harder to wipe out the unit. 6 tesla tomb blades are 192 pts and have 24 shots, 8 beamer tomb blades are also 192 pts and also have 24 shots. And you have S6 instead of S5.

While that is true, its very misleading.

Those tesla blades give you 24 hits from those 24 shots. The beamers only give you 16 hits from those 24 shots.

Against T3 (where the strength difference likely comes in effect), the tesla's outperform beamers, even with -1 to hit. At T6 with -1 to hit, beamers are slightly better, but at this and higher Toughnesses the armor save is usually so good that they blades don't really shine that well with no-AP weapons.