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Hey guys, I'm getting a large IG army in trade, and I'm wondering what are the amazing units vs. what are the ones to typically stay away from. I'm sure that everything has its use, but as always, some units have better average benefits than others.

I'm not looking for army lists, but wondering what units typically work well

From what I've heard, the IG have really good tanks, so a Leman Russ or a few might do you good, unless of course I've named you the wrong tank

But yeah, I've seen loads of people here say that the tanks are really good for them.

I don't play IG so I don't personally know I'm afraid.

Any of the tanks are good, besides the Deathstrike. Some of the variants are garbage, but the turrets are easily converted so even if you get the wrong Leman Russ you can still turn it into one of the good ones. Of course some of them are better than others, but overall if you're getting a package deal you aren't going to be too sad if you get a Hellhound.

Valkyries are good because you can turn them into Vendettas, one of the best units in the game.

Infantry with lasguns or lascannons, autocannons, melta guns, and plasma guns are all good. No matter what list type you play you're going to need infantry, and those models can go in any of the good infantry units.

The things to watch out for are the specialist modelss. Ratlings, rough riders, Sentinels, any of the garbage units that you can't use as a better unit. If you get a pile of ratlings, for example, they make exactly one unit, and it's a bad unit. Likewise for stuff like grenade launchers and heavy bolters, you won't ever want to use those models no matter what units you take, so don't count their value.

In terms of things to stay away from I would say rough riders and the devil dog for sure. Never run riders, but I've heard bad things and their statline isn't all that impressive. I have used the devil dog on multiple occasions. It has only really done well once against dark eldar, but that was because the transports are made of tissue. In terms of uses, it is very limited and fragile. Save it for very casual games.

You can actually make most units in the guard codex work, especially if you build your list around them. Really the only awful stinkers are banewolves, penal legionnaires, psyker battle squads, and vanquishers. Give me pretty much anything else, and I could make a decently competitive list with three of them (or three units for non-vehicles).

As for what's good, it's high strength, low ap, multi-shot weapons platforms. Vet squads with 3 plasmas or 3 meltaguns have always been a solid choice, and you can do some pretty eye-watering lascannon spam with infantry platoons. Vendettas also fit this profile and are pretty good, and you can also put out some serious punch with russ sponsons. I also like stormtroopers, because their special mobility gives them a strategic impact, and the low Ap of their small arm is nice.

I wouldn't be too worried about buying guard units that wind up being unusably terrible later, especially if you keep things interchangable (not gluing weapons down on vehicles, for example).

Turrets and infantry weapons aren't a big deal, as I agree on their swapability.

What I'm mostly wondering on are the specialist units.

Penal legion
Ogryns

Interesting note about heavy bolter guardsmen.

thewarsmith wrote:
Turrets and infantry weapons aren't a big deal, as I agree on their swapability.

What I'm mostly wondering on are the specialist units.

Penal legion
Ogryns

Interesting note about heavy bolter guardsmen.

Penal legion is terrible in general.

Can't comment on Ogryns, but hopes are not high.

thewarsmith wrote:
Hey guys, I'm getting a large IG army in trade, and I'm wondering what are the amazing units vs. what are the ones to typically stay away from. I'm sure that everything has its use, but as always, some units have better average benefits than others.

I'm not looking for army lists, but wondering what units typically work well

My personal views off the top of my head without too much thought.

Very Good/Broken units

Vendetta
Veterans (depending on what you equip them with)
Command squads of all types
Manticore
Marbo
Straken


Good units

Infantry squads
Hydras
Griffon
LR Exterminator (in certain setups, primarily LC+2HB)
LR Executioner
Valkyries


OK units

Chimeras
Special weapon Squads
Lord Commissars
Medusa
Collossus
LRBT
LR Demolisher
Stormtroopers as 5man DS double-melta suicide squads
Creed/Kell


Mediocre units

Heavy Weapon Squads
Hellhound
Devil Dog
Banewolf
Basilisk
LR Eradicator
Ratlings
LR Exterminator


Bad units

LR Punisher
LR Vanquisher
Rough Riders
Sentinels
Armored Sentinels
Yarrick
Penal Legion

The Ugly

Deathstrikes
Stormtroopers
Penal Legion
Ogryn
Minstorum Priests
Engineseers
Conscripts

penal legionnaires are awful.

Ogryn aren't dustbin terrible, but you do have to do them right. And by right, I mean in squads of size at least 6, and with a lord commissar.

Basically, they provide your force with ultraconcentrated infantry, and are pretty good linebacker units. The biggest drawback is that most people aren't willing to devote the 350+ points to a proper squad of them, and if you don't spend enough, their impact can start to fall off quickly. Just don't make the mistake of only judging them by means of their killing power.

The other problem with ogryns is that 6th ed and the new FAQ makes punishers relatively much better than before. Looking at two russes compared to 6 ogryn, and the case for ogryn becomes tougher to make.

They are fun to use, though, I'll give them that.

I have had awesome success with Punishers, Bolter sponsons, hull bolter, and a stubber on top. 32 shots in total, so 18 shots hit regularly. Toss in Pask and this bumps up to 23-24 shots that hit. Once rolls to wound are done you are looking at around 14+ wounds on a mob. I have carpeted many a terminator squad into rubble using a single punisher.


Just remember, I can excell with Psyker battle Choirs, some people can't as with most units in the Guard dex YMMV. Always keep that in mind, learn the dex and learn the units. Combinations will suprise you .

Yeah, punishers are really good now, what with the options for versatility.

At the most recent local tournament, our local melta-las punisher spammer came in second. In that tournament, I brought said punishers (not as many), and would have come in third were it not for some bad luck at the end.

The most spectacular thing for me was a game I played against a draigowing army. The combination of FNP-ignoring, armor-ignoring, instant-death-causing fire from the hull weapons combined with the sheer weight of fire from the main guns basically saw two punishers throw draigo and an awful lot of terminators off the board in only a couple of turns.

When you watch paladins melting like snow to a blowtorch, you know you're doing something right.

At the end of the day, the guard codex is a very open book. Find the units you can use. For Instance, I like running Penal Legion. They are regarded as a terrible unit, but I know how to work them to get the most out of them. So really, look at the local meta and try a few games. Find units you enjoy and units that can get the job done. Then build your army.

Yes.... But...

There is no secret gnostic knowledge to making penal legionnaires work. They're going to behave poorly relative to other options, regardless of the skill level of the user.

For a few units in the codex, you really do need to practice with them to get the most out of them (eviscerator priests and ogryn spring to mind), but for most units, how to use them in any given situation is pretty obvious.

If you can see what the right thing to do is without having some sort of super brain, then having some sort of super brain won't actually help you use them any better.

Whatever you get make sure you get multiples.

Penal Legion arent the greatest choice, but they're far better than some of the other choices. I just treat them as they are, expendable. That said, i'd usually prefer another infantry squad with lascannonxmelta, but having outflanking infantry never hurts.

the only thing to really watch out for in the Ig codex is things that are too specialized or not enough. Too specialized gets you things like the eradicator, a unit that just wrecks face in one specific scenario and fails horribly at all others. Not specialized enough, and the unit is only marginally effective against everything (missile launchers spring to mind)

As for what tends to be best/worst, seems like everybody has already covered it. It won't take you long to see which ones are good and bad for yourself, so dont worry. Read the codex a couple times and what we're saying will make a lot more sense.

 Ailaros wrote:
Ogryn aren't dustbin terrible, but you do have to do them right. And by right, I mean in squads of size at least 6, and with a lord commissar.

Or with Uriah if you are willing to ally in Sisters. Ogryns with FNP should be pretty durable. Not to mention the +1 to attack and re-rolls to hit on the charge. Unless that got FAQ'd and it doesn't work anymore.

MrMoustaffa wrote: Too specialized gets you things like the eradicator

So, this is something that I'm trying to overturn in the other thread.

Firstly, with the exception of sisters of battle (who are, you know, REAL common), every army in the game has the option to field troops choices with Sv4+ or worse. "Basically all armies", is not a small niche. Secondly, 8 out of 14 armies (so, over half), don't even have the option of taking troops choices with a 3+ save or better. "At least half the armies" is not a small niche either.

Thirdly, we're in 6th ed now. People are rocking the MSU scoring units, which usually means cheap stuff hiding in cover. For the first time in a long time, I'm starting to see space marine scouts, even in BA and BT lists. We have several GK players at my local store, and all of them bring coteaz so that they can get some cheap henchmen squads to hold objectives. Add to this that there are necron players (who are nearly all Sv4+) and guard (whose troops choices never get better than Sv4+), and suddenly the top three armies are all fielding stuff that the eradicator kills. Given that these units tend to have a big strategic impact (because they score), this makes this unit rather useful.

Fourthly, the eradicator is nearly universally better against units in cover. It's twice as good as a battlecannon against marines that have gone to ground behind an aegis or fortified ruin, and equally good against marines with a 3+ cover save. It blows everything away against lighter infantry, which, as just mentioned, is not niche, but prevalent.

If you're only ever playing against a wing army or marines that like to run out in the open, then yeah, an eradicator would be overspecialized, but really, we're talking about a niche it's NOT good against.

It is, indeed, possible to get overspecialized, like SWSs, or ratlings, or no-sponson vendettas, but I don't know if I'd put the eradicator at the top of that list. Especially not when you can give it sponsons for real versatility.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, this is something that I'm trying to overturn in the other thread.

Trying and failing, you mean. Which I guess is why you've moved the argument here, where people won't see how all the pro-Eradicator arguments have been proved wrong.


Anyway, the reason you shouldn't care about Eradicators in the context of the OP is that the Eradicator model can easily be modified into any of the other Leman Russ variants, so for purposes of evaluating whether a full-army purchase is a good deal or not you can just count all Leman Russ variants as equally valuable.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Very Good/Broken units

Vendetta
Veterans (depending on what you equip them with)
Command squads of all types
Manticore
Marbo
Straken


Good units

Infantry squads
Hydras
Griffon
LR Exterminator (in certain setups, primarily LC+2HB)
LR Executioner
Valkyries


OK units

Chimeras
Special weapon Squads
Lord Commissars
Medusa
Collossus
LRBT
LR Demolisher
Stormtroopers as 5man DS double-melta suicide squads
Creed/Kell


Mediocre units

Heavy Weapon Squads
Hellhound
Devil Dog
Banewolf
Basilisk
LR Eradicator
Ratlings
LR Exterminator


Bad units

LR Punisher
LR Vanquisher
Rough Riders
Sentinels
Armored Sentinels
Yarrick
Penal Legion

The Ugly

Deathstrikes
Stormtroopers
Penal Legion
Ogryn
Minstorum Priests
Engineseers
Conscripts

Your list is decent, save for a few things.

Griffon is OK, Hydras are Mediocre, Straken is Mediocre, LR Exterminator is OK, Valkyries are OK, Stormtroopers are OK, Chimera, Medusa, and Demolisher are all good, and the LR Punisher is OK.

Fact.

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Firstly, with the exception of sisters of battle (who are, you know, REAL common), every army in the game has the option to field troops choices with Sv4+ or worse. "Basically all armies", is not a small niche. Secondly, 8 out of 14 armies (so, over half), don't even have the option of taking troops choices with a 3+ save or better. "At least half the armies" is not a small niche either.

There are a few things wrong with this statement: There are 16 armies right now: 1 Black Templars, 2 Blood Angels, 3 Chaos Daemons, 4 Chaos Space Marines, 5 Dark Angels, 6 Dark Eldar, 7 Eldar, 8 Grey Knights, 9 Imperial Guard, 10 Necrons, 11 Orks, 12 Sisters, 13 Space Marines, 14 Space Wolves, 15 Tau and 16 Tyrannids. Of those armies, 8 (exactly half) can take power armored troops. Additionally, Chaos Daemons are somewhat special because of their widespread invulnerable saves, with most cover being 5+ now they aren't effected by things that remove cover as much as significantly as the other non-PA races. Additionally, saying that X percentage of the codices don't use Power Armor for their troops is fairly narrow for two reasons. The first is that even though those armies may not have troop choices in PA, they may have other high-priority targets with 3+ saves. Tau are the the most clean cut example, since removing their crisis Suits is often more important than dealing with their troops on objectives, (except for during the last two turns). The second reason that this fact is irrelevant is that there is an extreme imbalance in the metagame towards power-armored armies, particularly Space Marine variants, meaning that even though they account for 50% of the codices, PA armies probably occupy at least 60% of the metagame.

As a note, I'm undecided in the Eradicator vs. BT debate. I don't think the Eradicator is as good as the position you've moved into, nor as bad as others claim. However, you should not use flawed arguments, it does nothing but hurt your position.

 Ailaros wrote:

Fourthly, the eradicator is nearly universally better against units in cover. It's twice as good as a battlecannon against marines that have gone to ground behind an aegis or fortified ruin, and equally good against marines with a 3+ cover save. It blows everything away against lighter infantry, which, as just mentioned, is not niche, but prevalent.

If you're only ever playing against a wing army or marines that like to run out in the open, then yeah, an eradicator would be overspecialized, but really, we're talking about a niche it's NOT good against.

Why do you speak as if 2+ and 3+ cover is super common?

It's something of a rarity. Even then, the LRBT is, as you've said, equally good against targets in 3+, and better against anything worse.

So you yourself say the Eradicator is a good pick against 2+ cover saves.

That's pretty niche, and seems too niche to be worth dumping 150+ points into taking care of.

Furthermore, as you've said again, the LRBT will force units to go to ground to get that precious 2+/3+ cover. The Eradicator will not.

Armies that don't use 3+ armor troops are only 4 by my count. Demons, who get invuln and feel no pain, dark eldar, tau, and ig. Tyranid armies get the 3+ from tervigons, eldar have the awesome jet bike, necrons have immortals, and orks get mega nobs. To be fair, orks almost never run mega nob troops, so they shouldn't really count, but it is an option. Also, with allies everyone but orks get decent or better scoring 3+ save troops.

Some Khorne demons have 3+ armour saves.

Almost every Guard unit has some utility, just some come with too high a cost for their utlity, principally Stormtroopers, Ogryn and Deathstrikes.

Units like that largely only belong in games for fun, as they have negligible worth in competitive games. I usually run some SS simply because I like the model; I know they're a horrid pointsink, and not up to making back their cost, most of the time.

What I feel is worth saying, however, is Ratlings aren't that bad.

10 BS4 snipers with stealth for 100pts? Provided they aren't out on their own or exposed, they can deal pretty solid damage, and be hard to hurt. They're actually pretty efficient at knocking wounds off of MCs or other small size units. I'm sure you can math it out and find better options, but I don't see a real reason to loathe them.

One of our local Guard player always uses a squad of them, and they rarely fail to make back their points.

TheCaptain wrote:

Your list is decent, save for a few things.

Griffon is OK, Hydras are Mediocre, Straken is Mediocre, LR Exterminator is OK, Valkyries are OK, Stormtroopers are OK, Chimera, Medusa, and Demolisher are all good, and the LR Punisher is OK.

Fact.

The Griffon is actually a very capable unit, the problem is that it's in a slot that people need for different roles. S6 AP4 rerollable large blasts are very potent for 75pts each, it's just you usually need that HS slot for AT guns

Hydras are debateable. In 5th they were stellar. In 6th, if you're facing Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, or any marine army running flyers and/or land speeders, they're still stellar. It's just that against everything else they're pointless

I noted that the LR Exterimantor is good with one kit, aside from that I'd agree it's ok.

Valkyries I might agree with being ok when they're stock, with rocket pods I think they're a solid Good.

Stormtroopers in almost any role other than suicide melta are awful, they'll trade even wounds with equally costed marines in a firefight at 18" and under and lose at 24" and get butchered in assaults, they pay way too many points for that AP3, and don't have the statline or weapon type to make good use of their pistol/CCW.

Demolishers got hurt very hard by the Lumbering Behemoth-Heavy change, probably the most out of any LR tank, and at 165pts a pop before anything else, they just end up being overpriced Vindicators.

Medusa's are good against very heavy tanks, but against anything else you'll get better efficiency out of other units, and they're not the hardiest units around sadly. They also tend to be dead very quickly

I haven't been a fan of chimeras in 6th, they're have their uses, but they definitely aren't as useful due to transport changes and their use on their own has significantly diminished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Firstly, with the exception of sisters of battle (who are, you know, REAL common), every army in the game has the option to field troops choices with Sv4+ or worse.

Relatively few that have that choice choose to do so however, at least to the point where their survival is typically critical in any way.

Thirdly, we're in 6th ed now. People are rocking the MSU scoring units

This is new...how?

For the first time in a long time, I'm starting to see space marine scouts, even in BA and BT lists.

Methinks you're rather unique in that regard then as that does not appear to be a widespread perception.

We have several GK players at my local store, and all of them bring coteaz so that they can get some cheap henchmen squads to hold objectives. Add to this that there are necron players (who are nearly all Sv4+) and guard (whose troops choices never get better than Sv4+), and suddenly the top three armies are all fielding stuff that the eradicator kills. Given that these units tend to have a big strategic impact (because they score), this makes this unit rather useful.

Yes, they're very good against such units, but if the GK player is relying heavily on T3 5+sv henchmen for scoring they're stupid. Necrons have 3+sv scoring units and lots of excellent transports and are probably the worst army to rely on an AV14 mid-range tank against. Yes it'll kill guardsmen well...but then so will anything. \

Fourthly, the eradicator is nearly universally better against units in cover. It's twice as good as a battlecannon against marines that have gone to ground behind an aegis or fortified ruin

Sure, but that said, fortified ruins aren't super common, it requires taking a very specific unit, having such terrain on the table, and having it in the right deployment zone and in a place that's really where you want to put such a unit. Very highly variable seeing that. Defence Lines are rather common, but at the same time, they're still getting their 3+sv so while yes, it's better, it's not stellar

and equally good against marines with a 3+ cover save. It blows everything away against lighter infantry, which, as just mentioned, is not niche, but prevalent.

In many ways I want to agree with you, but the Battlecannon's 72" range able to hit anything on the board it can see, the instant Death capability against T4 units, its AP3 in an era where 5+ cover is far more common than anything else, and its ability to act as a tank hunter in a crunch (with essentially a souped-up krak missile that's hard to miss with against a tank), are also all real bonuses, and the Eradicator is more expensive to boot.

Play style matters a lot when you're valuing this stuff. I play super mpobile as a rule, and so some of the sedentary troops aren't as good for me. But those same troops make sense for gun liners. Even when I haveblobs, I tend to want to pressforward and steal their movement towards me and thus the objectives behind me.

For my own style, the units I have like the best are:

Colossus. Good Gawd. Get one ASAP.
Punisher with Knight Commander Pask. Its name says it all.
Demolition Veteran Squads
Guardsman Marbo
Vindettas and Valkyries (I like both for different reasons)

The other units are fine except Ogr The Ogryn held promise but they just aren't as good as Dark Eldar Grotesques are and their melee ability is sort of misplaced in a primarily IG force, especially when Allies can provide the same punch in a better package.

Penal legionauires are okay. they are stubborn and people forget how useful that is as a way to slow down enemy troops. tying deathstars up for just that one round is usually a life saving meneuver against some IG armies! Dont seek ultimate cosmid power from them. Just accept what they are: very affordiable SCORING mudpits.

The army came w/ a LR demolisher and LRBT, but I have ordered a FW Ryza pattern Vanquisher turret, and may just count it as either LRBT or LRV, as the FW turret just looks badass!!

Good stuff here on the likes/dislikes of some units. As a note, this army will eventually be able to play alongside/ally with my Salamanders army, so any advice there would be great.

Rough Riders - Would love to have converted some up and used them, but it doesn't seem they're really worth it.

Ogryns - I might try these out by putting 6 of them in a Chimera

Ratlings - Wasn't really tempted to try these out

Penal Legion - Do they just have absolutely no survivability and/or punch? I wish they had at least some upgrade options.

Conscripts - Are these worth it? Taking a BUNCH seems like they'd be good objective holders.

thewarsmith wrote:
The army came w/ a LR demolisher and LRBT, but I have ordered a FW Ryza pattern Vanquisher turret, and may just count it as either LRBT or LRV, as the FW turret just looks badass!!

It really does look nice, I have one myself. I use it as the command tank for my armoured battle group list.

Be aware that vanquishers are pretty rubbish in the standard codex. The armoured battle group list makes them much better with co-ax stubber and special ammunition,

 Trickstick wrote:

It really does look nice, I have one myself. I use it as the command tank for my armoured battle group list.

Be aware that vanquishers are pretty rubbish in the standard codex. The armoured battle group list makes them much better with co-ax stubber and special ammunition,

Yeah, it looks like an overspecialized point sink. I'll probably just count it as a standard battle cannon.

So I was looking through the codex last night, and I noticed, to my surprise, that the executioner cannon does NOT have the "gets hot" rule. If that's the case, it just becamse significantly better IMO. Do lots of people use this tank?

Good:

You can have more special weapons than any other army at the sameoint cost. Plasma guns, Melta, las cannons, auto cannons. Just figure if you want a lot of infantry (infantry platoons) or you want a lot of special weapons in each squad (vets).

The chimera. Best transport in the game. Stock with two long range weapons, large capacity, and better armor than a rhino.

Tanks. With changes in 6th edition, the exterminator and punisher are seeing more play. The demolisher is still good too. Most of the leman Russ variants are good at something, but not everything. The exterminator and punisher run best with heavy bolters all around.

Manticore. This is a great artillery piece. Hide it behind cover and start shooting. It takes out hordes and tanks very well.

Storm troopers. Yes, the die easy, however, they are the scalpel that you have to take care of monstrous creatures are other armor. Plasma and Melta are the way to go. 5 man squads.

Marbo. Volumes have been written about him

Valk, vendetta. You already know

Hydra. Great for taking out flyers. Needs the interceptor rule.

The bad:

The lack of armor on your troops. At best you can upgrade you CCS and vets with 4+ armor, but, most weapons you go against will rip through that. The two best characters with armor are Straken (which is a CCs upgrade) or a tech priest (which rarely sees play).

Tecriest engineer. His only redeeming quality is 3+. Save.

Primaries psycher. Lower leadership means he is not an auto go like space marines.

Conscripts. They work, but, have have a special character for them to be mediocre at best.

Ratings. I like them, but they run away too easily.

Rough riders. They are a good one trick pony. After that they just suck. Plus, the models are horrible.

Death strike. A one shot use. Was good, sort of, in 5th when blast rules were different. At best a six inch radius of pure death. Getting the shot off is iffy.

The ugly: to me this means units that are not great but can be used to do good things.

Ogryn. They work, but you have to build it and sink a lot of points. 5 ogryn with yarrick work great. Put in a chimera, with dozer blade) and get into a fight. They need a higher leadersh near them a d yarricks rules with re-rolls during combat ( on the charge) help a lot on those initial strength 6 hits. Plus yarricks ap2 klaw helps finish up.

Penal legion squad. Yes, more than base ves in points. However, built in stubborn and scout. Stubborn is a great thing for any guard unit to bennifit from. They hold objectives well. However, the abilities they can get go from decent to suck Fest. Knife fighters is the best you can roll.

Sentinels. Work great in a way. Scouts that outflank from reserve do good things. Equip with auto cannons or multi lasers and watch that rhino go away. Open top and armor 10 don't help. The armored are a bit more resilient but still fold easily enough.

Special characters. Most cost a lot for games under 2,000 points. Creed/ Kell combo is good, but, eats up points. Stracken is good, but, have to build around. Pask, hes the punisher but he cannot jump out when the tank explodes ( sm guy gets that option, why can't pask?). Harker, I use him, he is great behind an adl, and the fact that you have two heavy weapons in a squad is fun. Bastonne, never see him played.