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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Exactly, so the whole concept is absurd.

Relying on the UN to do the right thing is even more absurd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 19:30:25


 
   
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Well that part of the UN was designed in a more idealistic time when it was the US and friends plus the Soviets. Now with three large opposing powers the veto basically means the UN only acts on more mundane cases. There have been efforts to reform the SC or the veto power, but good luck trying a hand at reform when that veto can be used against any new proposal.

Its nice when it works, but when it doesn't other international law should trump a deadlock.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Austria

SeanDrake wrote:

SHE took 7 days to make an "Urgent" decision and then gave 48hrs notice to Russia/Iran so they could remove there men and materials to safety before blowing up the empty building.
[...]So an illegal attack that achieved nothing other than costing a fortune

achievment:
kept talk about possible brexit votum manipulation by Cambridge Analytics out of the media for more than a week

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah why would I want to give up my power to veto, and open myself up to 'condemnations'? I mean, if I even cared about those.

Pretty genius of Stalin. Of course, the US has had its share of uses for it too. But I hate the veto. Its amazing what positives things don't get done because of one a-hole.

And keep in mind, we're in this situation of bombing Assad because the UN is powerless to even condemn it. Which is an absolute joke. So I wouldn't care what the UN deems legal and not. And who cares about breaking 'international law' if it can't be enforced or those who break it suffer no penalty?

I am not sure what good the UN is. Its really just a show. I guess it gives some countries a place to voice their opinions, but I feel most of what the UN can do can be done by other organizations. Its either completely ineffective, or effective because its manipulated. But I guess that's politics for you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 19:43:51


 
   
Made in nl
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That perception is mainly created because the focus is so heavily on big power politics. But there is plenty that the UN does that is both useful and internationally relevant, such as setting up laws on less hot button issues, provide a platform for discourse, support of peace keeping, humanitarian aid and development.

Its just the veto in the Security Council that is really problematic. But that wasn't just Stalin, all 5 really hammered on that veto and it was a cooperative effort to force that veto on the rest of the future UN members.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Killer Klaivex







Rosebuddy wrote:

The reason I know that you aren't engaging with me honestly


Mate, I've better things to do with my time than engage with people 'dishonestly'. Whatever that means in this context.

wherein you list the Simpsons and tourists, that do not have political, economic or military power and very pointedly don't mention governments until halfway through when you demonstrate that you understand precisely what I mean when I say that the West should stop interfering in the Middle East. Communication is built on mutual good will and this principle is so strong that one immediately discounts absurd interpretations of even comically broad statements.

Whether I aimed it badly, or you were looking the other way for some reason, that's clearly where the point missed you. I'll try and be more blunt and explicit.

Your statement was that the West needed to stop meddling in the Middle-East, because that's what gives it the problems it has today (or at least, a sufficiently large enough chunk of them to be the first thing worth noting).

My first point here, is that many of the problems you're ascribing to the 'West' actually have sod all to do with the 'West' as a concept (Belgium hasn't invaded the Middle East recently), but rather one or two very specific nations. You're using the term vaguely, badly and interchangeably primarily with 'America/France/Britain' for the most part. Which is a bit weird, given that most of that sort of activity they engage in is also heavily indulged in by the likes of the Russians, who are very decidedly not part of the 'West' by any stretch of the imagination, and the local nation of Iran. 'West' is very clearly not the appropriate term to be used here on that point.

My second point is that many of the tensions and ills which do result from the interference of the 'West' more generally actually have sod all to do with the more obvious events that you're intending by your statement (invasions, drones, etc) but rather other more cultural and mundane interactions between the two. Western soft power appears to be generally more easily exerted and less resented/causative of less conflict in other parts of the world and cultures than it does in the Middle-East. The 'West' has just as checkered a history in places like Somalia and Nigeria, but we don't see Boko Haram trying to recruit US nationals.

Put those two points together, and what I'm saying is that there is more than a grain of truth to the intent behind your statements. But the statement itself 'Stop the West from meddling in the Middle-East to solve a large number of problems there' is deceptively simply and misleading; on account of the fact that it's not really the 'West', and I don't think (I could be wrong) that the over-excessive strife in the region is rooted in the sort of meddling you're referring to, but rather more mundane cultural interactions.

From there, I'm speculating as to where on earth you'd draw the line for those more mundane interactions, and try to develop the 'No Western meddling' approach on all levels (instead of just the crude broad brush invasions one) into practicable policy; and indeed, whether or not that would actually be desirable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/16 19:53:46



 
   
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In other news, the Russians and Syrians will allow the OPCW access to the site on Wednesday. Man, you would think someone that's innocent would be in a hurry to clear their name, not be engaged in stalling!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43783427

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 19:53:57


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Made in us
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All those things you listed could be done and are done by other organizations, some of which, lose patience with the UN coming around to act if it can act at all, and just go ahead and do things on their own anyway (Red Cross, NATO, etc).

The UN is a show to make us all feel rosey about everyone doing something together. The problem is, it just doesn't do enough. And its not like I would even want it to. I do not want the US dictated by the UN and more than I expect the Russians or Syrians to be. That's why I just have to laugh about what the UN deems 'legal'. At the end of the day, everyone is going to act in their own self-interest. The UN doesn't prevent genocide, China tearing up reefs to make military bases in contested areas, etc.The threat of a UN Condemnation is a joke anyway. Condemn me! I won't lose any sleep at night.

I mean, lets look at what happened in Syria. A UN relief column got bombed. I am not sure the UN has even been back. Assad/Russians 1 - UN 0. Assad gases his own people with Russian support, UN tries to investigate, Russia vetos. Assad/Russians 2 - UN 0. US says screw this, bombs Assad, Russians demand a emergency session, no one cares what they have to say. People then argue if what Trump has done is legal, even though kids just got attacked by poison gas while everyone else shrugs their shoulder.

I swear we live on the stupidest planet in the galaxy, and that includes those with no life on them.

UN is treats symptoms, not causes. And its obvious that each party throws around UN approvals when they benefit from them, then defiantly state they will not be bound by those they do no agree with.
   
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On moon miranda.

The UN does a lot, and is in large part a huge reason for increases in average life expectency across the globe, provision of food and healthcare, education, etc. The UN is great at these things.

What it does not do well is intercede in civil conflicts or interfere with the game of empire among the great powers.

This is also be explicit intentional design on the part of the powers that created the UN, even if left unstated. None of the great powers want the UN to actually have teeth.

Syria unfortunately is a civil conflict in the middle of the great game of empires.

That said, the UN does at least offer a discussion group among nations and is instrumental in cleaning up a lot of places and rebuilding, at least more than there would be if such places were left to themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 20:12:17


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Yet there hasn't been an organization that has stepped up on the scale of the UN though. Humanitarian aid and development is incredibly splintered, one of the bigger ones is the Red Cross, which has its own host of issues. Peacekeeping really doesn't have an organizational replacement and neither does the crafting of international law on a global level. Certain aspects could be covered by other organisations, but all of them or on that scale? No.

The UN doesn't prevent anything because the UN is a inter-governmental organisation, not a supranational entity. Make it a supranational entity and it would have more power. But a lot of people in the US alone instinctively cringe when they hear UN army.

As for China's island building, the UN actually gives neighbouring countries and the US something to use against China in the form of UNCLOS. If UNCLOS didn't exist then the US couldn't even complain about it or enforce freedom of navigation.

You can't blame the UN for failures in Syria when the UN wasn't given any power in the first place to stop it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/16 20:15:51


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Freakazoitt wrote:
I do not understand the position of the Kurds. Do they create a separate state or not? If so, why do not they announce it to get some kind of official protection?


Because the moment they do, Turkey starts a war of genocide and the US gets dragged into a quagmire of epic proportions.


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Fort Campbell

Syria is blocking chemical inspectors from examining the missile attacks sites.

Nothing to see here...

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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It technically is illegal because you need Security Council approval (for offensive acts) which makes it legal, but seeing as Russia has a veto saying it is illegal holds absolutely zero value as you would never be able to go for the 'legal' option.


Not quite. Here's the text in the UN charter;
"All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

So you can't use force to threaten someone's territory to overthrow their government, or anything inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. This has typically been interpreted to mean you can't have a lawful war without security council approval. However there's a few things that are consistent with UN purposes, like protecting your citizens and protecting universal human rights, which have been argued as legitimate justifications for war that don't need UN approval. This isn't necessarily a popular view among a lot of countries, as it opens the door to big countries attacking small countries on fig leaf justifications, but that doesn't make it wrong, the charter says what it says.

In this case, an attack to render Syria incapable of using chemical weapons would easily be justified by the terms of the charter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KTG17 wrote:
Exactly, so the whole concept is absurd.

Relying on the UN to do the right thing is even more absurd.


It isn't absurd. It's like claiming the police are useless because they won't investigate if your wife is sleeping with the neighbor. The problem is your understanding of the organisation.

The UN isn't the international world police. Their primary goal is to prevent war, and part of this means making sure the UN won't be used as a tool to push through a war that one of the five permanent security council members objects to. If the UN was there to try and run the world, this would be a terrible design. But the UN isn't there to run the world, they're there to facilitate communication between countries to stop war happening in the first place. In that context the UN structure makes perfect sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 05:54:00


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

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 sebster wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It technically is illegal because you need Security Council approval (for offensive acts) which makes it legal, but seeing as Russia has a veto saying it is illegal holds absolutely zero value as you would never be able to go for the 'legal' option.


Not quite. Here's the text in the UN charter;
"All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

So you can't use force to threaten someone's territory to overthrow their government, or anything inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. This has typically been interpreted to mean you can't have a lawful war without security council approval. However there's a few things that are consistent with UN purposes, like protecting your citizens and protecting universal human rights, which have been argued as legitimate justifications for war that don't need UN approval. This isn't necessarily a popular view among a lot of countries, as it opens the door to big countries attacking small countries on fig leaf justifications, but that doesn't make it wrong, the charter says what it says.

In this case, an attack to render Syria incapable of using chemical weapons would easily be justified by the terms of the charter.

Well that is the problem with the UN Charter, its vague, take for example article 2:7

"Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll."

It leaves the door open for often claimed domestic issues, because chapter 7, article 39 doesn't mention human rights:

"The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security."

Going to 42:

"Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations."

The UN Charter and SC are a mess in that regard because they were designed for a different age. While something is to be said for the interpretation method which I agree with. Its not that strong because it leaves the door open to all kinds of abuses and problems. When does something cross the threshold for intervention? Who gets to decide that? The system needs an overhaul. But nobody wants the loss of power involved in it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 06:14:37


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The UN Charter and SC are a mess in that regard because they were designed for a different age. While something is to be said for the interpretation method which I agree with. Its not that strong because it leaves the door open to all kinds of abuses and problems. When does something cross the threshold for intervention? Who gets to decide that? The system needs an overhaul. But nobody wants the loss of power involved in it.


I agree that the charter is vague, and your point that it was designed for a different age is bang on.

And yeah, who gets to decide the threshold for intervention is a good question, and the overwhelming majority of countries likely oppose the idea that lawful wars can be fought without UN sanction precisely out of fear that large countries would just claim the justification as a fig leaf for hostile action. The UK did exactly that in trying to justify its operations in the Suez.

I'm not saying it should be that way, just saying the current system isn't as clear as a lot of people assume. So I think we're agreed on all that.

As to fixing it, I'm not sure even with the political will there's an easy solution. Trying to prevent immoral wars of expansion or interference, while allowing for moral wars protecting that would guard human rights, and doing this while accepting there is no independent arbiter to decide each case is an impossible thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 07:10:03


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





 sebster wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The UN Charter and SC are a mess in that regard because they were designed for a different age. While something is to be said for the interpretation method which I agree with. Its not that strong because it leaves the door open to all kinds of abuses and problems. When does something cross the threshold for intervention? Who gets to decide that? The system needs an overhaul. But nobody wants the loss of power involved in it.


I agree that the charter is vague, and your point that it was designed for a different age is bang on.

And yeah, who gets to decide the threshold for intervention is a good question, and the overwhelming majority of countries likely oppose the idea that lawful wars can be fought without UN sanction precisely out of fear that large countries would just claim the justification as a fig leaf for hostile action. The UK did exactly that in trying to justify its operations in the Suez.

I'm not saying it should be that way, just saying the current system isn't as clear as a lot of people assume. So I think we're agreed on all that.

As to fixing it, I'm not sure even with the political will there's an easy solution. Trying to prevent immoral wars of expansion or interference, while allowing for moral wars protecting that would guard human rights, and doing this while accepting there is no independent arbiter to decide each case is an impossible thing.

I am a big supporter of the Just War Theory as a concept, because war isn't always the worst option. In extension to that I'm also heavily inclined to support the notion of humanitarian interventions. The problem being is that both these concepts are seen as an expression of Western hegemonic power and both Russia, China and a great deal of non-Western countries oppose it out of reflex. Another problem is that frequently the Western political reality isn't up to the task of what would be required for a good conclusion of operations.

I understand you don't say it should be that way. I think almost everyone agrees there needs to be some middle ground. An independent arbiter would offer up a decent solution. But having an independent arbiter with enough credibility would see it turn into some sort of legal organisation akin to the ICC, which would be incredibly slow while speed would be the essence in many cases for intervention. I believe the Just War Theory offers good guidelines/a frame of reference together with current international law for looking into a more interpretation based mechanism, but the theory is still Western based and it would still be down to the discretion of individual countries. Perhaps a move away from the SC veto and the SC being the decider is a good move. Include as many countries as possible in votes of intervention, but let the SC work from that vote onwards. The current SC with its veto and the way it rotates members isn't a great way to show more global variations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 08:13:05


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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So the OPCW has said that its UN security team for the Douma investigation has been fired upon. I'm utterly shocked at this incredibly unexpected turn of events! Shocked I tell you!

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Posting this in both threads. So there are reports coming in of multiple missiles hitting government bases in Syria:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43947019

Missiles hit a number of military sites in northern Syria on Sunday night, state media say, with unconfirmed reports of dozens of fatalities.

The Syrian military said facilities in Hama and Aleppo provinces were struck.

It did not immediately report any casualties. But a UK-based monitoring group said 26 pro-government fighters were killed, most of them Iranians.


If this is true I wonder who is behind it, no tweet to warn anyone though, so it seems unlikely to be the US? Very strange, maybe the Israelis.

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Room

Video

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/990794090550882304

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Posting this in both threads. So there are reports coming in of multiple missiles hitting government bases in Syria:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43947019

Missiles hit a number of military sites in northern Syria on Sunday night, state media say, with unconfirmed reports of dozens of fatalities.

The Syrian military said facilities in Hama and Aleppo provinces were struck.

It did not immediately report any casualties. But a UK-based monitoring group said 26 pro-government fighters were killed, most of them Iranians.


If this is true I wonder who is behind it, no tweet to warn anyone though, so it seems unlikely to be the US? Very strange, maybe the Israelis.


Who knows. Saudi side of the region barrier could be at it too?

They Don, t want Iran to have a greater hold in very middle east.

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I don't think its the Saudis, that's far too blatant for them and oddly timed with the war almost over. My money is on Israel because of its drone spat with Iran probably.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Posting this in both threads. So there are reports coming in of multiple missiles hitting government bases in Syria:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43947019

Missiles hit a number of military sites in northern Syria on Sunday night, state media say, with unconfirmed reports of dozens of fatalities.

The Syrian military said facilities in Hama and Aleppo provinces were struck.

It did not immediately report any casualties. But a UK-based monitoring group said 26 pro-government fighters were killed, most of them Iranians.


If this is true I wonder who is behind it, no tweet to warn anyone though, so it seems unlikely to be the US? Very strange, maybe the Israelis.


Who knows. Saudi side of the region barrier could be at it too?

They Don, t want Iran to have a greater hold in very middle east.


Israel, from what I've heard.

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I don't think its the Saudis, that's far too blatant for them and oddly timed with the war almost over. My money is on Israel because of its drone spat with Iran probably.


Maybe. Whoever it was can ignore the air defense at will and strike targets with little recourse. Whoever it has to have a high level of tech or be allied to a country with so.

Its not like Syria announced downing anything or claimed exactly who or where it came from.

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 jhe90 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I don't think its the Saudis, that's far too blatant for them and oddly timed with the war almost over. My money is on Israel because of its drone spat with Iran probably.


Maybe. Whoever it was can ignore the air defense at will and strike targets with little recourse. Whoever it has to have a high level of tech or be allied to a country with so.

Its not like Syria announced downing anything or claimed exactly who or where it came from.

Well fact of the matter is the Russians run the most advanced air defences and Syria and they let anyone run around, no joke, most countries have a hotline to the Russians in Syria. What Syria has itself is too outdated to reliable take down modern equipment.

They did manage to down one Israeli jet in the last 7 years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 18:15:49


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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
They did manage to down one Israeli jet in the last 7 years.


...with what is believed to be modern russian equipment and a good dose of luck following a piloting error (he got to low to the ground) apparently.
   
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Well, more fun:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44271676

Not sure who to cheer here, the battery ISIS hit was shelling Kurdish positions. I hate to cheer on ISIS, but...



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Ok... well, can't cheer on ISIS, but at least they had their targetting priorities right.

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Mock them both. ISIS for bad target priority and Assad/Russia for getting their just desserts.

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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Not sure who to cheer here, the battery ISIS hit was shelling Kurdish positions. I hate to cheer on ISIS, but...


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Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Perhaps its time to dust this thread off again. It seems after 7.5 years the civil war in Syria is going to end. Assad is preparing for an assault on Idlib and Russia is building up forces in the Med off Syria for an 'exercise' they claim. It seems the final offensive is imminent and that is going to turn out bloody. Assad used Idlib as a dumping ground to get rebel forces to leave other areas, but now they have nowhere left to go. Idlib is all that's left and a lot of anti Assad civilians and rebels are cooped up there.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-military-naval-presence-mediterranean-us-vladimir-putin-syria-offensive/

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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