Switch Theme:

1750 The Grey Knight-Tyranid Wars Part II - Hive Fleet Pandora Strikes Back! (Completed)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
Can Grey Knights still dominate Tyranids like they used to back in 5th?
Yes, they've got just too much dakka for nids to handle.
Draw, or I'm not sure.
No. Tyranids are just too good now and psychic powers will let them withstand GK shooting.

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Ever since my last battle where I played my Grey Knight horde versus Janthkin's bugs, that battle really got me thinking. Are the grey knights a hard-counter to bugs? As the grey knight player, I was basically dominating Janthkin's tyranids....and still almost lost! Can they also dominate a different type of tyranid build as well? Can they dominate against my Hive Fleet Pandora? I guess there's only 1 way to find out.

12/31/12 - Happy New Year! Grey Knights vs Janthkin's Tyranids - BAO Match

Helping me in this battle is SabrX, who will be playing my grey knights. It is the exact same army as the one I used against Janthkin (in the battle report above). I have brought a slightly modified version of my standard Hive Fleet Pandora. In this list, I swapped out 1 unit of hive guards for a pair of zoanthropes. I've also dropped 1 biovore in order to run a unit of 3 hive guards.

Do my bugs have what it takes to take on the grey knights? Or will my grey knight striker-spam horde army shoot them down like the xenosects that they are? We shall find out.



1750 Hive Fleet Pandora (by Jy2)

Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers
Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers

Doom of Ma'lantai - Mycetic Spore
3x Hive Guards
2x Zoanthropes

Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants

15x Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

2x Biovores
2x Biovores



1750 The Grey Knight Horde (by SabrX)

Coteaz

10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer (not on Justicar)
10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
5x Henchmen

Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Big Guns Never Tire - 4x Objectives


Deployment: Vanguard Strike


Initiative: Grey Knights (Tyranids win and makes the knights go first)


-------------------------------------------------------------------


This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/01/13 02:12:04



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in it
Infiltrating Broodlord





Italy

I personally consider this Nids list the more ALL COMERS competitive compromise the codex may offer at 1750. Indipendently from the playstyle, missions or bad match-ups, in a tournaments is the more balanced mix of best units available therefor the one list that can stand and/or strike back vs almost all the adversary builds.

The perfect list doesn't exist of course but my buck is on Nids.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 11:26:37


Every molecule will be useful

6000+ pts NIDS
() 2000 pts growing to 4000... 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

Subbed. i want to see this battle play out.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:
This will be an intriguing match. Grey Knight S5-stormbolter spam IMO is one of the few armies that can give the bugs a hard time. Maybe not as bad as Space Wolves rune priest/long fang-spam or Dark Eldar venom-spam, but the volume of dakka that they can put up will just murder the big bugs. And then nemesis force weapons give them a fighting chance in assault should my monstrous creatures get to them. It may be a small chance, but I've seen grey knights force weapon Tyranid MC's many times. It does happen.

And then there are the psychic powers and psychic defense. Divination is really good for the knights. Prescience is a no-brainer. Forewarning gives the knights a fighting chance in assault with the TMC's (Tyranid monstrous creatures), but the prize power here is definitely Misfortune. That power is just amazing. And then the knights have better than normal psychic defense against the bugs. They will deny on at least a 5+, with Coteaz's unit denying on a 3+. Very useful against Enfeeble and any of the tyranid witchfire powers.

Now with that said, how can tyranids compete? They've got 3 distinct advantages. The first is mobility. Dual flyrants should be able to get the alpha-strike on the knights and be within their deployment zone in just 1 turn. I shall flank his knights with both flyrants to minimize the return fire from the knights. Ideally, I want to leave my flyrants about 18" away from the unit that they will be going after. There's no way for the knights to catch them. The only thing they can do is to try to shoot them down....which isn't a bad solution really. But if my flyrants can get Iron Arm or Endurance, then they will survive....hopefully.

The second is psychic powers. Iron Arm, if I can get it, is going to be huge this game. If I get Iron Arm and if I can get up to T9, then those stormbolters cannot hurt me. Neither can the nemesis force swords. Endurance is always good against all enemies. I just need to remember It Will Not Die! that my TMC's get with Endurance. Enfeeble is really useful as well. It will allow me to potentially insta-kill his dreadknights. Applied twice and my hive guards can insta-gib them. Applied 3 times and my flyrants will insta-kill them. It is because of their psychic powers why tyranids have become so good now in 6E.

But my main advantage in this game is my experience. SabrX is not a Grey Knight player. The only experience he has is from playing against my knights in 5th and from the battle reports that he has read. He also doesn't have much experience against the new 6E tyranids aside from the battle reports that he's read online. Me, on the other hand, I am a seasoned pro with both armies. I know the strengths and weaknesses of both armies intimately. For example, I know that if I go second, I just need to stay 30"+ away from the knights and I won't have to worry about his shooting at all. I know that the knights don't move very well and will take time to respond to my flanking flyrants. I know that he will most likely deepstrike 1 or 2 units into my deployment zone to make a play for my objective. Unless he does something unconventionally, I know exactly how he is going to play. The question is, can I do anything about it? In any case, I have a huge experience advantage over my opponent, both in the knowledge of the armies as well as in 6E tactical play.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Spoiler:

Map of the terrain. Ignore the bastion on the upper-right corner


Warlord powers:

Coteaz - All friendly units within 12" gets Move Through Cover.

Flyrant - Outflank.

Psychic powers:

Coteaz - Prescience, Foreboding

Flyrant #1 (Warlord, Forgeworld) - Iron Arm, Enfeeble
Flyrant #2 - Iron Arm, Warp Speed
Doom - Psychic Shriek
Zoanthrope #1 - Smite, Enfeeble
Zoanthrope #2 - Iron Arm, Haemorrhage
Tervigon #1 - Enfeeble, Life Leech, Haemorrhage
Tervigon #2 - Enfeeble, Life Leech, Haemorrhage


Grey knight objectives (the 2 turtles) and Aegis Defense Line setup.


Tyranid objectives (the 2 crystals).


Grey knight deployment.

Basically, SabrX does almost exactly the same thing I did in my game against Janthkin. He combat squads 3 units of strikers and leaves 1 unit intact for Coteaz to join (for Prescience). He then leaves 1 unit of strikers and 1 dreadknight in reserves to deepstrike in later. Oh, he also leaves his unit of 5 henchmen in reserves as well.



Tyranid deployment. Flyrants hide behind the ruins and prepare to destroy his flank. Tervigons up front and I spread out my little ones to make it hard for my opponent's reserves to deepstrike into my deployment zone.


My deployment from the GK's perspective.

I don't bother to steal the initiative and we begin.




-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 1

Spoiler:

Coteaz casts Prescience. The GK's advance.


One thing for those who are not aware of - in 6th edition, monstrous creatures can get cover from area terrain!

Only 1 or 2 combat squads can see my tervigon and shoot at it, taking off 1 Wound only.


GK's then run forwards.




Tyranids 1

Spoiler:

Both flyrants become T9 due to Iron Arm!!! I have no fear and swoop them both forwards 24".


The rest of my bugs advance, spread out and then run (at least for those who can't shoot).


Biovores and hive guards focus on a combat squad and kill 3. They would pass both Pinning and Morale.


Both flyrants focus-fire on 1 combat squad to get First Blood.

So I've only killed a total of 8 knights and have both flyrants out in the open. Do I care? Not in the least. I'd like to see how my opponent is going to deal with 2 T9 swooping flyrants who will be able to assault next turn.




Grey Knights 2

Spoiler:

Only his henchmen come in from reserves. I'm sure my opponent would much rather have his dreadknight and strikers come in from reserves instead. Henchmen run 6" to reach his objective.


GK movement. Coteaz casts Prescience and Foreboding on his own unit.

SabrX decides to ignore the flyrants and to go after my tervigons.


His shooting against them is somewhat limited due to the central LOS-blocking alien hive terrain. He manages to only put 1W on each tervigon.

The rest of his army fire at my flyrants. Needing 6's to hit and 6's to wound (rend), he fails to do anything to them, even with Coteaz's re-rolls.


1 combat squad then makes the charge against my tervigon. SabrX is hoping for a lucky force weapon kill. I don't make it easy for him by challenging his Justicar, who declines (and thus cannot fight). My tervigon then kills 2 knights and take no damage in return. Knights pass morale.




Tyranids 2

Spoiler:
Flyrants become T9 (Warlord) and T8. It takes both tervigons and the zoanthrope to reduce his dreadknight to T4 (he passes 1 5+ Deny the Witch only).


Tervigons spawn 7 and 10 gants respectively. Left tervigon with 7 gants craps out.


Bugs advance. Gargoyles go after a 5-man combat squad.


I surprise my opponent by swooping with both flyrants again! The assault will come...later.


Shooting is very nasty this turn. Biovores shoot down 2 and 1 strikers on the right. The far-right combat squad (on the quad-gun) gets pinned!

Both flyrants focus on Coteaz's unit from the rear, meaning Coteaz cannot tank those shots with his 2+ armor (not that he would want to). I kill 6 knights.


But the worst thing is that my hive guards insta-kill his T4 Enfeebled dreaknight!


Gargoyles don't kill any strikers with their shooting and then charge in. I believe I lose 1 or 2 to Overwatch.


Combat draws at 1 kill each.


Unit of 10-gants charge into the striker-tervigon melee....


....and wipe them out.

Wow....what a devastating turn for my opponent. I've severely crippled his army by killing 21 out of 40 knights on the board and his dreadknight. As for my bugs, I have yet to take any real damage and I've got 2 Iron Armed flyrants in the middle of his army. Things are looking downright disastrous for the knights.




Grey Knights 3

Spoiler:

Only his dreadknight comes in from reserves. At this point, SabrX decides to play very aggressively. Fortunately, his dreadknight lands directly on target at the very corner of my deployment zone.


Coteaz casts both powers despite Shadows and heads towards the gargoyles.


The dreadknight's incinerator kills 1 of the scoring biovores and 2 gants. Fortunately, my zoanthropes are there to provide synapse.


1 combat squad shoots down 5 gants.


The rest of his army focuses on my T8 flyrant and do 2W to him, grounding him in the process (I believe it was 1W from shooting and 1W from the grounding).


Rules Question: A pinned unit (the combat squad on his quad-guns) can still snap-shots. However, they were also out of coherency as well. Can they still snap-fire while pinned and out-of-coherency? We weren't sure, but in this game, I gave my opponent the benefit of the doubt and allowed him to do so.



Coteaz's unit then charges, opting to cast Hammerhand this time instead. They pass. I then issue a challenge to Coteaz, who declines.


I kill off 2 knights, plus 1 to Overwatch.


Strikers charge at the 2 gants.


They wipe out my gants but lose 1 striker.


Drawn combat with 3 kills each.




Tyranids 3

Spoiler:

The Doom comes in from reserves into his deployment zone.


I show no mercy to my opponent and go for the total destruction of the knights.


2 units of gants prepare to assault.


1 tervigon go after his combat squad. The other starts to make his way backwards to deal with the dreadknight.


Between the Doom's Spirit Leech and my flyrant, I easily wipe out his henchmen.


Spirit Leech takes out 3 knights. The Doom is now out of range to cast Psychic Shriek (mainly because I thought its range was 6").


Gargoyles wipe out the lone striker in combat.


My flyrant lay flat both the striker and Coteaz.


Tervigon and gants change the unit of 4 knights.


We actually tie combat with 1 kill each.


Finally, gants take off 1W from the dreadknight with their shooting. They then charge and take off another 1W. The dreadknight kills 3 gants in retaliation. BTW, the dreadknight was Enfeebled by my zoanthrope.




Grey Knights 4

Spoiler:

Overview of what may possibly be the last game turn - Turn 4.


The only reason my opponent hasn't conceded yet is because he still has hopes of killing 1 of my flyrants. Strikers automatically come in and land more-or-less on target. Although my flyrant is T8, at least he isn't swooping this turn.


Shooting only does 1W of damage. Looks like my opponent isn't going to reach his goal.


In combat, I break his squad and send him fleeing.




Tyranids 4

Spoiler:

There will be no survivors. Tyranids will consume this pitiful colony and then the planet!


No mercy even for the fallen.


Tervigon sends in a fresh batch of gants to deal with his dreadknight. The zoanthrope enfeebles him once again.


Gargoyles shoot down another single grey knight.


As do my gants.


Flyrants shoot down 6 knights and then charge.


As do the gants, this time with poisoned attacks from the tervigon.


His dreadknight fails 2 saves and dies!


Flyrants whiff in combat and there is only 1 knight left!


My opponent only has 1 model left in the game. With that, he concedes before I table him next turn.

Needless to say, I get both mission objectives and all 3 bonus points to win 10-0.




Complete Domination by the Hive Mind!!!





Grey Knights 5



Tyranids 5


This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/01/13 02:03:42



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Def interested in this one too. Doom is just mean against this GK army and makes combat squadding a bit of a gamble (more scoring units but more Ld checks from spirit leech), dread knights and force weapons are the only things that can reliably take him down, and shadows can make one of those unreliable. Combat squadding is still worth it in my opinion for the extra scoring units and extra grounding checks for the tyrants though. Biovores can sit back on objectives and will be a big pain for all those foot models, but are easy pickings for DSers if they don't have something babysitting them. It'll depend a bit on what psychic powers the nids get, I like the 2 man zoey units (iron arm is great with them). On the other hand casting powers at GK can be a little frustrating between everything being a psyker, and them reducing your Ld (at least there aren't dreads to make it even worse though). Lots of poison little guys are bad news for the dread knights, but heavy incinerators are bad news for little bugs (No bunching up this time lol!!).

If the nids get decent powers and the Tervigons don't lock up too quickly I think the nids can take this one, but the GK have tons of shots and won't roll over by any means.
   
Made in be
Deranged Necron Destroyer






bugs you dont need to cast instakills with a dreadknight, S10 will take care of that.

I feel the footspam is to onesided to win this, it needs better fire support, something like a stormraven, psyshocks would be ace here to...

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





I got bugs on this one. I think that's mix of experience and psychic powers will give them the advantage.

Good luck! Subbed I really wanna see e results!
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon






interested.....enjoy both armies. wish nids book was better than it was so it compete top level

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Bay Area

 Mafty wrote:
interested.....enjoy both armies. wish nids book was better than it was so it compete top level


The current Nid codex is fine and can definitely compete in top levels.

   
Made in be
Deranged Necron Destroyer






 SabrX wrote:
 Mafty wrote:
interested.....enjoy both armies. wish nids book was better than it was so it compete top level


The current Nid codex is fine and can definitely compete in top levels.


Ugh yes, the tyranid codex is top and i would say that Nids is one of the only armies that can really field an all comers army.

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

If SabrX was as experienced with both armies as jy2 I'd pick GK to win. If SabrX makes some big mistakes I'm sure jy2 will capitalize on them so I'm giving the edge to Nidz.

My blog... http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com

Facebook...
https://m.facebook.com/Terminus6Est/

DT:60+S++++G++++M+++B+++I+++Pw40k89/d#++D+++A++++/eWD150R++++T(T)DM+++ 
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon






 Valek wrote:
 SabrX wrote:
 Mafty wrote:
interested.....enjoy both armies. wish nids book was better than it was so it compete top level


The current Nid codex is fine and can definitely compete in top levels.


Ugh yes, the tyranid codex is top and i would say that Nids is one of the only armies that can really field an all comers army.


Not to derail the thread but what changes from 5th to 6th made nids go from one of the worst codices to the best?

-Assault got worse all around for everyone, so nids will now lose bodies on the charge
-Sure fearless became better, so they dont die in droves if losing assault
-Getting book powers could be a plus.....but everyone gets book powers
-Flying MC? I suppose a 300pt model is good, until it gets grounded and takes a S9 hit and can now be assaulted and shot regularly

Just dont see the major changes which took nids from worst to best.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Bay Area

 Mafty wrote:
 Valek wrote:
 SabrX wrote:
 Mafty wrote:
interested.....enjoy both armies. wish nids book was better than it was so it compete top level


The current Nid codex is fine and can definitely compete in top levels.


Ugh yes, the tyranid codex is top and i would say that Nids is one of the only armies that can really field an all comers army.


Not to derail the thread but what changes from 5th to 6th made nids go from one of the worst codices to the best?

-Assault got worse all around for everyone, so nids will now lose bodies on the charge
-Sure fearless became better, so they dont die in droves if losing assault
-Getting book powers could be a plus.....but everyone gets book powers
-Flying MC? I suppose a 300pt model is good, until it gets grounded and takes a S9 hit and can now be assaulted and shot regularly

Just dont see the major changes which took nids from worst to best.


Anything else I say will give away the battle report results. Win or lose, I'm pretty sure your outlook will change on the Nids in 6th edition.

   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






 Mafty wrote:

Not to derail the thread but what changes from 5th to 6th made nids go from one of the worst codices to the best?

-Assault got worse all around for everyone, so nids will now lose bodies on the charge
-Sure fearless became better, so they dont die in droves if losing assault
-Getting book powers could be a plus.....but everyone gets book powers
-Flying MC? I suppose a 300pt model is good, until it gets grounded and takes a S9 hit and can now be assaulted and shot regularly

Just dont see the major changes which took nids from worst to best.


Like SabrX said, wait and see. But Nids did benefit a lot more from new powers than others did. Maybe because for SM, it means new powers on one HQ dude whos T4, but for us, it's on a couple of T6 6 wounds scoring monstrosities... plus Flying MCs and more. Fearless is huge, and the new assault/overwatch rules are usually not that bad. Go play a competetive Nid player and report back to us...


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Or check out some of my other tyranid battle reports. Here...I'll make it easy:


Tyranids in 6th - Pros & Cons - Can We Compete?


12/24/12 - 2K Competitive BAO X-Mas Special - Hive Fleet Pandora vs The Space Wolf Horde


12/21/12 - 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau


12/17/12 - 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons


12/16/12 - 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Grey Knights


12/11/12 - 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Mech Imperial Guards


11/30/12 - 2K Hive Fleet Pandora vs 2200 Fateweaver Daemons


11/11/12 - Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II


11/03/12 - Chaos Double Header Video Bat Rep: Reecius vs. Jy2, and Night Lords vs. 1,000 Sons


11/01/12 - 1-Trick-Pony or Truly Competitive? 2K Epidemius-Chaos Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora


10/28/12 - The NecroNid Wars III - 2K Hive Fleet Pandora (Tyranids) vs Janthkin's Balanced Necrons


10/27/12 - 2K Hive Fleet Pandora (Tyranids) vs 2200 Nurgle Space Marines


10/20/12 - 2K - Bugs Come Out to Play. 1st 6E Tyranid Battle vs Chaos



Working on battle report now. Will be up in its entirety a little later today.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/13 00:50:17



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






It really depends though, I think the new tyranids are MUCH better then they were but to play devils advocate for just a minute; most of these test games are against armies with little or no psychic defense. The one match against wolves was like watching a 30 year old beat a 5 year old in favor of the wolves. I still think Rune priests and Farseers are excellent tools against the bugs, and due to allies this means they can be much more prolific then one would imagine. Don't forget DE are also a hard counter, I wouldn't go so far as to say bugs are the most capable TAC list like Valek suggested but the are a very strong army now in 6th.

Now if you can just get a match against a DE, Eldar or SW opponent... it may be time to really start terrorizing front-line gaming for some games

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Bay Area

@Mafty:

Nids haves some of the best psykers in the game. While very most armies have little answer to flyers, even less can answer an Iron Army Flyrant. It's like bringing Apoc Gargantuan Creatures into a standard 40k game.

Jy2 and I had a long discussion afterwards of competitive armies that can counter Nids. Only a few came to mind. Strong psychic defense is a must, such as Rune Priests and Eldar's Runes of Warding. I hope this battle report changes your outlook on Nids.

@Jy2:

Feel free to post this in the aftermath:

Aside from lack of experience, three key factors lead to my defeat.

1. Terrain

The Grey Knight list I fielded is a shooty army. Any terrain piece that blocks TLOS will hinder the army's overall effectiveness. If you notice in the pictures, there's a huge ant hill that blocks TLOS. Biovores and Hive Guards don't need TLOS and the Dakka Flyrants can easily maneuver in a favorable firing lane. On the other hand, everything in the GK list needs TLOS to shoot at anything.

Nids had a huge advantage from terrain placement. Most of their assault elements reached my gun-line unscathed. Grey Knights Strikers are base attack 1 and don't benefit from additional close combat weapons. They don't fair well against volume of attacks.

In future games, Jy2 and I should roll off to see if a giant TLOS blocking terrain should be placed in the middle. It's not something you'd expect to see in most tournaments (at least the ones I've gone to) and it can really hurt armies that rely on shooting.

2. Enfeeble

Jy2 cast 2 Enfeebles on one of my Dreadknights and instant killed it with Hive Guards. Both Enfeeble and Hive Guards have a 24" range, so there's nothing the Dreadknight can do except pray they make all their armor saves. With my rolls, that didn't happen.

Enfeeble is also effective against Grey Knight infantry. Grey Knights get a taste of their own medicine once their toughness is reduced and getting shot up by Str4 Termagants and Biovores.

3. Iron Army Flyrant

Wow, T7 - T9 Eternal Warrior Flyrants! Even my Quad Gun can barely scratch them. It's almost like I'm playing against Apocalypse Gargantuan Creatures except they are flying monstrous creatures with 2x TL-Devourers! There's very little in the Grey Knight's arsenal that can counter them. Can't use force weapons if it doesn't wound. Dreadknight may have helped, but they were too busy getting beat up by enfeeble + hive guards. I did come close to killing one of the Flyrants leaving it down to 1 wound. Next turn, Jy2 casts Iron Army making it T9 and immune to Str5 shooting.

Say what you will about my lack of experience etc, but be honest. What would you have done differently against Iron Arm Flyrants if you were in my shoes? What would an experienced GK player with the exact list done against Enfeeble + Hive Guard and T9 Eternal Warrior Flyrant?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/13 03:48:18


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

 Red Corsair wrote:
It really depends though, I think the new tyranids are MUCH better then they were but to play devils advocate for just a minute; most of these test games are against armies with little or no psychic defense. The one match against wolves was like watching a 30 year old beat a 5 year old in favor of the wolves. I still think Rune priests and Farseers are excellent tools against the bugs, and due to allies this means they can be much more prolific then one would imagine. Don't forget DE are also a hard counter, I wouldn't go so far as to say bugs are the most capable TAC list like Valek suggested but the are a very strong army now in 6th.

Now if you can just get a match against a DE, Eldar or SW opponent... it may be time to really start terrorizing front-line gaming for some games

I agree. Tyranids are much improved this edition, but they still have their achilles heels. What used to hurt them in 5th will still hurt them in 6th. I'm talking mainly about Space Wolves, Dark Eldar and even Tau! While they have gotten better against these armies, they will still have problems against them, especially if certain factors are not "agreeable" to them (i.e. first turn, night-fight, terrain, etc.). At least for now, the grey knights are no longer as feared an enemy as they were back in 5th when they were another hard-counter to the bugs. However, with that said, now the new bugs actually have a fighting chance against those armies where it was once almost considered an auto-loss.

And I have already played a rematch between my bugs and my space wolves, though at 1750. Who knows, maybe I will get that report out before my tournament next week. I used the very same tyranid list as the one in this battle report. This is the Space Wolves:

Rune Priest - 2+, Chooser
Rune Priest - 2+, Boltgun
Rune Priest - 2+ (Warlord)

10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltas, MotW, Standard
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas, MotW, Standard
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas, MotW, Standard
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas, MotW, Standard
7x Grey Hunters - 1x Melta, MotW, Standard, Drop Pod

6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles
5x Long Fangs - 4x Missiles

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns

And in that game, space wolves went first and had a scoring Warlord with long fangs on a Skyfire objective!


This week, however, my battle report will focus on preparation for the upcoming 1750 tournament.


 SabrX wrote:

Say what you will about my lack of experience etc, but be honest. What would you have done differently against Iron Arm Flyrants if you were in my shoes? What would an experienced GK player with the exact list done against Enfeeble + Hive Guard and T9 Eternal Warrior Flyrant?

Thanks SabrX. I will post up your Post-game comments along with mine probably tomorrow.

To answer your question, honestly, I don't know. I don't have a solution for 2 Iron Armed flyrants besides massed poisoned weapons (of which the knights have none). That is a really tough tyranid build to play against, but it would require luck on the tyranid's side to get Iron Arm for both flyrants. I even had problems against Janthkin's tervigon with Iron Arm and that was only 1 tervigon. Now we are talking about 2 Hard-to-Hit T7-9 flyrants. The only thing you can do is to try to take it down when it is only T7 or T8 and sacrifice combat squads to them.

As for Enfeeble, the answer lies in the list-building phase. I'm beginning to think that I need at least 1 psyfleman dread in my list. It gives the knights a better chance against flyers, a better chance for First Blood against mech opponents, can tie up certain units in assault and Reinforced Aegis means that my psychic bugs would be casting Enfeeble at only LD6. The only trick is to keep him alive.




6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Since you don't have to wound to force a grounding test, throw some fire at a T9 Flyrant and then throw a unit into CC - challenge with the Justicar. Try and tarpit him.

That or ground and then assault with a Dreadknight.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

Flying Tyrants are much better but I don't think they are the bees' knees. Shoot enough units at them and they will fall down most likely taking a wound in the process. They are still more of a support unit than an HQ that leads at the front. If Swarmy had a 2+ save and Eternal Warrior he would be the bees' knees.

I don't think this game really proved much due to SabrX's lack of familiarity with both armies. Win BAO with Nidz and that will prove them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 06:22:30


My blog... http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com

Facebook...
https://m.facebook.com/Terminus6Est/

DT:60+S++++G++++M+++B+++I+++Pw40k89/d#++D+++A++++/eWD150R++++T(T)DM+++ 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

rigeld2 wrote:
Since you don't have to wound to force a grounding test, throw some fire at a T9 Flyrant and then throw a unit into CC - challenge with the Justicar. Try and tarpit him.

That or ground and then assault with a Dreadknight.

The problem is, you are throwing firepower that can't really hurt him in the hopes of a 33% chance to ground him. That is firepower that could be put to better use trying to kill easier-to-kill targets. Now granted, if you had no other targets besides the flyrants to shoot at, then it's ok....and that was exactly what SabrX did. But GK's just don't play the sacrificial, tarpit game very well, at least not with LD8 expensive combat squads. They are better utilized by just staying there, shooting the enemy and letting the flyrant go and assault them. Unfortunately, both choices - going after the flyrants or ignoring the flyrants - are terrible choices, especially when the tyranid player denies you other VIP targets.

And assaulting with an Enfeebled dreadknight isn't ideal either, not when the flyrant is attacking first and can insta-gib him with a Smash attack (remember, he was Enfeebled). And not when the flyrant is Eternal Warrior from Iron Arm. Yes, the dreadknight stands a better chance against the flyrant than the strikers, but in this case, both options are not very good.

Also, here's a little tip. Enfeeble caused the dreadknight to become S/T4. That means his nemesis doomfists only makes him S8 against a T9 flyrant. He can't even reliably wound the flyrant!

Of course, all this is about a very specific case (namely, this game). In general, the grey knights would probably match up better against the bugs. They just need to hope tyranids don't get Iron Arm for both flyrants!


 Dozer Blades wrote:
Flying Tyrants are much better but I don't think they are the bees' knees. Shoot enough units at them and they will fall down most likely taking a wound in the process. They are still more of a support unit than an HQ that leads at the front. If Swarmy had a 2+ save and Eternal Warrior he would be the bees' knees.

They are not the bees' knees for the army. I feel that that honor goes to the tervigons. However, what the flyrants are are the focal point of the offense. How far the bugs will go will usually depend on how well the flyrants do.

If you know how to use them, you will start to see how good they can really be. Here are some tips for maximizing the use of your flyrants.

1. Protect them. Keep them out of LOS of shooty enemies if possible until they are ready to strike. Flank them to deny shooting from the majority of the enemy. You need to take advantage of every single piece of terrain whenever possible.

2. Buff them up with psychic powers. Not to the extent that your tervigons become vulnerable, but you need at least 1 layer of protective psychic buffs. The 2 best buffs are Iron Arm and Endurance. It helps if you have zoanthropes in the army. That way, you can potentially give them both.

3. Always keep them swooping until you are ready to assault. You really need to pick your assaults really carefully. Do not assault a sacrificial 5-man unit or rhino that your opponent leaves out as a bait. He will just shoot you down afterwards. Ideally, you would want to assault a unit where you can finish off in 2 assault phases (i.e. on your opponent's assault phase). This is so that he cannot shoot you down afterwards. Also, beware of enemy counter-assault units. That could be anywhere from an assaulty unit to a tarpit unit designed to lock down your flyrant. You don't necessarily have to kill the flyrant to take him out of play. And beware of shooting your own foot with random charge lengths and terrain. What you don't want to do is move your flyrant, shoot down the front guys and then fail your charge because of that.

4. I always try to move my flyrant into area terrain. He doesn't have to take DT tests but will get the benefit of the area terrain. That means you don't have to jink when enemy units shoot at him.

5. Against assault armies, I sometimes land my flyrant on top of impassable terrain. Then, even if your opponent grounds him, they will not be able to assault him.

6. Remember, the flyrant is good in combat but he is not an uber-CC beast. Avoid assaults that don't make sense, and beware aware that you are vulnerable after you finish combat. Only assault units that you can finish off in 2 assault phases and beware of counter-charging enemy units.


If you play your flyrants smartly, they will seem like the bee's knees of the army.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in ca
Furious Fire Dragon






I think SabrX had a touch of bad luck with JY2s psychic power rolls he had as well. Getting iron arm on BOTH flyrants? Its slim odds to get the power on one, let alone both. Not to mention there is nothing to STOP iron arm from being cast.....against SW or Eldar the power could be stopped.

Stand by my statement. I dont think tyrands are top tier, id really like them to be, as I love the model range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 07:03:38


   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

In all honesty, while the foot knights have some cool shooting, I'm still skeptical of their lack of psychic defenses and air powers.

Given the new rad grenade launcher and biomancy powers, (which DA + IG can definately get access to, or DA+other marines/BA etc) DK doesn't seem like the be all end all like it used to be nor does our T3 inquisitors survivability. What's your thoughts on the storm raven now JY2? Think a dread with reinforced aegis would have helped?

Also, what exactly would your foot knights do vs baleflamers from chaos? It seems like a hard counter to the foot knights strat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 08:16:04


+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

 Mafty wrote:
I think SabrX had a touch of bad luck with JY2s psychic power rolls he had as well. Getting iron arm on BOTH flyrants? Its slim odds to get the power on one, let alone both. Not to mention there is nothing to STOP iron arm from being cast.....against SW or Eldar the power could be stopped.

Stand by my statement. I dont think tyrands are top tier, id really like them to be, as I love the model range.

No prob. You are entitled to your opinion. Let's just say that 6E tyranids play very differently from the 5E bugs that you are probably more accustomed to.

On the flip side, it's interesting to note that neither of my tervigons got Iron Arm nor Endurance. With 3 powers each, there was a very good chance that each one would get at least 1 of those powers. But to have 6 chances and still not get even one of those 2 powers, I wonder what are the odds....





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 sudojoe wrote:
In all honesty, while the foot knights have some cool shooting, I'm still skeptical of their lack of psychic defenses and air powers.

Given the new rad grenade launcher and biomancy powers, (which DA + IG can definately get access to, or DA+other marines/BA etc) DK doesn't seem like the be all end all like it used to be nor does our T3 inquisitors survivability. What's your thoughts on the storm raven now JY2? Think a dread with reinforced aegis would have helped?

Also, what exactly would your foot knights do vs baleflamers from chaos? It seems like a hard counter to the foot knights strat.

It's a trade-off that you're just going to have to make. 40 psycannon shots and 80 S5 shots is still respectable against non-AV12 flyers, especially if 1 of them is getting re-rolls to hit due to Prescience. And then you've got the quad-guns. It's true that this GK build doesn't have answers for everything (none of the GK builds IMO really do), but I'll take my chances. I'm relying on 50 bodies and 2 monstrous creatures (backed by the Aegis Defense Line if necessary) to survive the bulk of enemy flyer offense.

Sorry, but I am not familiar with the new rad grenade launcher or the new DA yet. Can't really comment on them.

My thoughts on the storm raven is the same now as it was back then - I'm not particularly impressed. I've faced 2x and 3x stormravens before....beat them without too much trouble. I'd much rather have more boots on the ground than 600+ points of flyers which can only kill maybe 6 guys each turn.

A dread would have definitely helped in this matchup. I've been torn between having psyfleman support units or dreadknight support units. From this matchup, I think it's become quite clear, at least to me....I need both.

Baleflamers are the shiznit. They are perhaps the only non-necron flyer that I truly respect and fear. If I go up against it with either my foot-knights or my foot-wolves, what can you do? Just take it like a man and try to shoot it down. I have enough shooting to easily take down 1. 2 will give me problems. 3 and my foot lists are in trouble. However, I believe that having 3 heldrakes will also unbalance the Chaos list and hurt them in other matchups against non-MEQ, non-foot armies. I would never go with more than 2 heldrakes in any game less than 2500.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 08:32:03



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Bay Area

 jy2 wrote:

My thoughts on the storm raven is the same now as it was back then - I'm not particularly impressed. I've faced 2x and 3x stormravens before....beat them without too much trouble. I'd much rather have more boots on the ground than 600+ points of flyers which can only kill maybe 6 guys each turn.


The triple BA Storm Raven game occurred prior to Death Ray being FAQ'd. I really like what the BA triple storm ravens brings to the table against mech and MC's, but it has little use against horde. The best it can do is go hover mode and use its large base as a road block. Though if they were in this game, they would have definitely given your Flyrants a problem. But that's a completely different army.

I doubt Crowe Purifiers will fair any better. Sure they have cleansing flame, but have too few bodies.

   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

The storm raven has been my anti-psyker method of choice lately

The mindstrike missles are what I'd generally use them for. While there's some rules confusion, it could be claimed that PoTMS lets you fire off another missle potentially. MM+LC+2 mind strike missles and then a PoTMS missle to basically down psykers as an alternative to just depending on passive defense from the reinforced aegis. Vs most other psykers, this is just overkill and hardly ever comes up but vs nids, there's come good use I suppose for this.

Yes, this would only work on one creature potentially but you can shoot missles at like zoeys in the back and PoTMS like las cannon turret into a flygrant to try and ground and possibly wound once at least. You could do this fairly far out as the missles and the lascannons give very good range.

The storm raven isn't really just a kill vehicle like the necron air forces which just kill everything. It's more of a "snipe" the powerful guys hiding in the back/out of range of your other stuff. Or at least that's how I use it anyway.

While the volume of fire seems impressive from the foot knights, I'm just not sure it'd stand up to like flamer spam from daemons, (I'd get in via movements and deep strike further away) or salvo banner from DA's, or IG pie plates for that matter. Venom spam with night shields would also give this fits as far as I can see. The psyfle dread could definately help but the range problems seem like it can be devestating.

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Did the Dreadknight deny the witch on those enfeebles at a 5+?

I have to agree that shooting the Flyrants was the way to go. It is not always wise to shoot the easy things, its better to shoot the things that will do the most damage to you.

You just need to hit to ground them. In grounding they take a str 9 ap 2 hit which is enough to get through the iron arm and wound them. On the ground, toughness 9 creatures are hurt by poison and Rending. Psycannons rend. Rewrite the list to include a more balanced approach and include more rending to deal with toughness 9 creatures. Either that or Terminators with multiple thunder hammers. Ground them and assault them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I agree with the above post. A GK Stormraven would make a mockery of the Flyrants. Lascannon, multimelta, mind strike missiles will all hurt the Flyrants fast. Throw in hurricane bolters on the Raven and it can help take out gargoyles and Termagants in droves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 11:52:32


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Can't shoot the missiles at a Flyrant - even with Skyfire blasts and templates can't hit flyers.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

I'd not depend on the mindstrikes vs the flygrants as you can't blast template the flying guys but great if they are already grounded as you are forced to take tests after each unit shot at them. Grounded ones however are fair game for the mind strikes.

pepper them with small arms or even markerlights if using tau allies via combat squadding and just getting the 6's is enough to ground. Don't need to necessarily wound.

The spawing tyvergons are still gonna be tough to handle however.

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in be
Deranged Necron Destroyer






Yeah, grey knights need Storm raven i'm sure of that, mindstrikes are gold for some potentially weak match ups, but they will also down those pesky dragons and can even have a small squad of deathcults to throw in for a backfield supprise (scoring with Coteaz)

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Battle Reports
Go to: