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Comparing units across armies is not precisely an apples to apples comparison.

But I think it's fair to make *some* cross codex analysis, because internal balance should make sense across codices. It's hard to say a buggy is well priced compared to a land speeder, for instance, even acknowledging it's not a strict 1-to-1 comparison.

That being said, a grot very well might be worth 4 ppm, because CP generation is one of our few force multipliers. I think it would be incredibly stupid to increase grot costs without huge swathes of change elsewhere, though. Increasing grot costs alone just makes army diversity even worse at the competitive level.

Balancing a codex without looking at other armies gets us 7th edition orks.
Internally that codex was fine. In practice against ANY other army it was horribly overpriced and lacking in punch/defense.

I agree comparisons cant be 1to1 between codexes but they can be fairly similar. If they cost the exact same its pretty easy to compare the two because at that point the ONLY difference is statlines, gear, and special rules - all of which gretchin have none to speak of. The only 3 rules they get access to at all is DDD, their 20+ numbers bonus to hit with peashooters, and a rule that removes rules/stratagems.

tulun wrote:
Comparing units across armies is not precisely an apples to apples comparison.

But I think it's fair to make *some* cross codex analysis, because internal balance should make sense across codices. It's hard to say a buggy is well priced compared to a land speeder, for instance, even acknowledging it's not a strict 1-to-1 comparison.

That being said, a grot very well might be worth 4 ppm, because CP generation is one of our few force multipliers. I think it would be incredibly stupid to increase grot costs without huge swathes of change elsewhere, though. Increasing grot costs alone just makes army diversity even worse at the competitive level.

No, the point is that a grot is not worth 4 points even if guardsmen go up to 10 points.


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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Balancing a codex without looking at other armies gets us 7th edition orks.
Internally that codex was fine. In practice against ANY other army it was horribly overpriced and lacking in punch/defense.

I agree comparisons cant be 1to1 between codexes but they can be fairly similar. If they cost the exact same its pretty easy to compare the two because at that point the ONLY difference is statlines, gear, and special rules - all of which gretchin have none to speak of. The only 3 rules they get access to at all is DDD, their 20+ numbers bonus to hit with peashooters, and a rule that removes rules/stratagems.

If you really want to discuss guardsmen, create a new thread please. Because I don't want to have to read this discussion for the hundredth time.

You can only compare an army as a whole to an army as whole. There is no magic formula where you can enter the statlines of both units, orders, grot shield, dakka³, comissars, warbosses/runtherds, psychic powers, point value of units either can protect, costs of opportunity for not bringing other troops and whatever I missed and get a correct value for points out of it. Especially not if the difference is one point.

The only truth is that orks have to bring battalions for CP. If you increase their points, this doesn't change until you reach a threshold where we start bringing boyz instead. All this will just eat away the points we have for other stuff that actually does anything and thus results in weakening the ork army.

The only reason for people to stop spamming gretchin would either be providing alternative troops (for example trukk boyz, wagon boyz, toop nobz or warbikers), alternative sources of CP or buffing units that have little or no stratagem support (most vehicles).

 Jidmah wrote:

No, the point is that a grot is not worth 4 points even if guardsmen go up to 10 points.

If you really want to discuss guardsmen, create a new thread please. Because I don't want to have to read this discussion for the hundredth time.

You can only compare an army as a whole to an army as whole. There is no magic formula where you can enter the statlines of both units, orders, grot shield, dakka³, comissars, warbosses/runtherds, psychic powers, point value of units either can protect, costs of opportunity for not bringing other troops and whatever I missed and get a correct value for points out of it. Especially not if the difference is one point.

The only truth is that orks have to bring battalions for CP. If you increase their points, this doesn't change until you reach a threshold where we start bringing boyz instead. All this will just eat away the points we have for other stuff that actually does anything and thus results in weakening the ork army.

The only reason for people to stop spamming gretchin would either be providing alternative troops (for example trukk boyz, wagon boyz, toop nobz or warbikers), alternative sources of CP or buffing units that have little or no stratagem support (most vehicles).

I agree to an extent; points are the unit of measurement we use for very complex things. But we can talk about some of the inputs very easily (because we know that statline IS an input to point cost).

I think its fair to say if the Grot statline and basic ruleset are worth 3 points, and Guardsman with their far better statline are worth 4 points, that the other complex stuff we are putting it better mean grots are worth 3 points. If Guardsmen costed as much as a tac marine, you'd really have to a good argument as to why, given their basic statline.

But I 100% agree on the troops problem. People would stop using Grots (or use them less) the choices weren't 10 grots (coming in at 30 points) or 210 points minimum for a full boy squad. Why it's an issue Orks field a 10 man grot squad, and space marines field 3x Scout squads (55 points a pop at min) is somehow an issue is confusing.

Many other armies have much better troop options; we literally have take the chaffiest of chaff, or spend 200+ points on making something useful. 10 Boy squads are simply useless in competitive play, unless Trukks become cheaper (and even then, that's still a large tax just to field a bare minimum squad).

For sure, if trukkboyz were at least viable (not necessarily the best option) i'd be using them.
I have like 8 trukks or something like that. They never get used because every time i put an elite/heavy unit in there theyre a very tasty target, and boyz just dont do anything at that number.

Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.

Trukk boyz or selected dedicated troops like trukkboyz for evil sunz would be SO good!

Also

My problem with SM is that they are like 20% undercosted for what they do.

Amusingly enough, the prior complaint was that Marines were OVERcosted. Which always weirded me out cuz, as an Ork player, I would LOVE to spend 13 pts and get a Marine statline Nob.

 flandarz wrote:
Amusingly enough, the prior complaint was that Marines were OVERcosted. Which always weirded me out cuz, as an Ork player, I would LOVE to spend 13 pts and get a Marine statline Nob.

Amen to that.

that tends to happen when they more than double the rules they get and didnt pricehyke them to keep them relatively balanced.

Sidenote: White Scars. Seeing as how this is the main marine force i face i kinda need to change my lists up a bit.



The main decision im trying to think of here is whether or not that Wazbom is worth it or if i should take more boyz (bump that 10x to a 30x).
Obviously the clear winner would be mekgunz but aint got those to spam.
Feels wrong not using 7+ vehicles but that +1D whitescars get literally autowins against vehicle lists if you dont table them by turn3.

I'm guessing you're sticking to a mono kultur list? That restricts some of the obvious points I reckon.

What does your opponent typically field in their white scars list?

Rather large squad of bikers with 2 character bikers in tow (captain with that relic of gakton of attacks, chaplain), landraider and a couple rhinos with a dual-sword marine i forget the name for (their whole shtick is they swing 5 times, which with the assault doctrine switches from pretty meh to pretty insanely strong especially with that banner around)

His backfield is mostly just various tac marines with misc heavy weapons.

I generally avoid mixed kulture mostly because i dont like having to keep track what is what kulture when theyre all painted the same way lol. Semi-casual environment anyway so i dont need to powergame, im just out of my element trying to find a way to deal with white scars w/o utterly screwing myself against other armies.

I usually shred the bikers pretty quick, even with their annoying 4++ strat (that should seriously not be a 4++...). Its those dual-sword guys in T3 onward that get me because by then all i really have left is big stuff, and they eat big stuff far too easily for how cheap they are.

Sounds like a job for tankbustas to me. Tellyporta or Da Jump them turn 1/2, smash the rhinos and/or the LR (which they should do incredibly easily with shoot twice, add in some squig bombs for extra insurance), wreck the transports before they can get close, shoot em down. Could easily swap some stuff to take them.

Dakkajet might be better than a wazbom. Doesn't care about that bike 4++ invul save.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.

Actually there are three obvious solution to that
- Make the PK do more damage to incentive MSU
- Make stratagems which work on/near trukks (disembark after movement, for example)
- Make a new datasheet for trukk boyz which max out at 12 models and have a replacement rule for green tide

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.

Actually there are three obvious solution to that
- Make the PK do more damage to incentive MSU
- Make stratagems which work on/near trukks (disembark after movement, for example)
- Make a new datasheet for trukk boyz which max out at 12 models and have a replacement rule for green tide

I'd really like that but trukk boyz would be an alternative to fotslogging 30 man mobs, not to min squads of gretchins. 10-12 boyz with a trukk and a PK are way too expensive to be spammed in lists with 3x battallions or battallion+brigade.

The only real alternative to spamming min squads of gretchins would be to to change the boyz datasheet by making their size 5-30. Since ages boyz have been deployed in squads of 10+ (in 3rd however trukk boyz were 5-10 dudes but fast attacks), but several boxes, even very new ones like the upcoming sisters kit, come with 10 models while their min squad is 5 elements.

At the moment, at competitive levels, disposing of 18+ CPs is too important and we're taking grots mostly for that goal. I don't even use the Grot Shield stratagem since it requires key positioning and casualties are suffered anyway crippling the shooting unit behind them, I always deepstrike the max suicide unit of yellow tankbustas, which I consider significantly more effective than lootas or shielded footsloggin bustas. Gretchins are not particularly good, they're just mandatory to make our army work at tournaments.

If we could take min squads of boys (35 points), or other units like bikes (69), stormboyz (45) or kommandos (40), under the special rule of some named characters who make them troops, we'd certainly take those units to fill up the required troop slots instead of gretchins. But suggested units that cost 150+ points like trukk boyz squads would have a different purpose.

We need some real point drops for PK, Rokkit, warbikes, buggies, Stompa, Big Mek with MA, warboss with MA ( if they don't take it away), trukk and BW.

Boy that CA can't come out soon enough.


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109 points for 12 boyz with PK and Rokkit + 67 points for trukk and Wrecking ball is ridiculous.

178 points for 10W T6 4+/ 3A 5+ S8 -1 D2 and 13W T4 6+/ 22A 3+ S4 Ap0 D1 is ridiculous.

That is what 80 points of primaris ?


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Sorry I forgot 3 S10 4+ -3 d3 A from the nob

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.

Actually there are three obvious solution to that
- Make the PK do more damage to incentive MSU
- Make stratagems which work on/near trukks (disembark after movement, for example)
- Make a new datasheet for trukk boyz which max out at 12 models and have a replacement rule for green tide

I'd really like that but trukk boyz would be an alternative to fotslogging 30 man mobs, not to min squads of gretchins. 10-12 boyz with a trukk and a PK are way too expensive to be spammed in lists with 3x battallions or battallion+brigade.

The only real alternative to spamming min squads of gretchins would be to to change the boyz datasheet by making their size 5-30. Since ages boyz have been deployed in squads of 10+ (in 3rd however trukk boyz were 5-10 dudes but fast attacks), but several boxes, even very new ones like the upcoming sisters kit, come with 10 models while their min squad is 5 elements.

At the moment, at competitive levels, disposing of 18+ CPs is too important and we're taking grots mostly for that goal. I don't even use the Grot Shield stratagem since it requires key positioning and casualties are suffered anyway crippling the shooting unit behind them, I always deepstrike the max suicide unit of yellow tankbustas, which I consider significantly more effective than lootas or shielded footsloggin bustas. Gretchins are not particularly good, they're just mandatory to make our army work at tournaments.

If we could take min squads of boys (35 points), or other units like bikes (69), stormboyz (45) or kommandos (40), under the special rule of some named characters who make them troops, we'd certainly take those units to fill up the required troop slots instead of gretchins. But suggested units that cost 150+ points like trukk boyz squads would have a different purpose.

That would just make the CP farm problem worse, not better. The whole point is to minimze the need for CP farms, because you have other troops worth taking.
A ~120 point unit actually providing something to your army is better than a 30 point unit not doing jack, proof of that is people still bringing big boyz mobs to win tournaments.
In general, you are always better off taking troops which are worth their points over taking worthless troops for CP only. An army with 18 CP and 1970 points invested in good units will be better than a unit with 18 CP and 1910 points invested in good units.


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 Emicrania wrote:
We need some real point drops for PK

I don't know, even if the PK were free, it wouldn't really change anything about the units that can take it besides making them cheaper.

On that note: Boarding Action REALLY should allow you to make ALL your attacks against any unit within 1" of your transport. Or just update Open-Topped to allow that. Even in a BW (which gives you the largest Embarked mob you can have), 1 attack per model and only against Vehicles is pretty garbage, even for just 1 CP.

 Jidmah wrote:

That would just make the CP farm problem worse, not better. The whole point is to minimze the need for CP farms, because you have other troops worth taking.
A ~120 point unit actually providing something to your army is better than a 30 point unit not doing jack, proof of that is people still bringing big boyz mobs to win tournaments.

In general, you are always better off taking troops which are worth their points over taking worthless troops for CP only. An army with 18 CP and 1970 points invested in good units will be better than a unit with 18 CP and 1910 points invested in good units.

Top tier orks don't invest tons of CPs in 30 man mobs; the endless greet tide stratagem is very situational and any decent player won't give you the chance to respawn a full size mob. The majority of CPs are invested in Tellyporta, More Dakka, Showing Off, Grot Shield, Dread Waagh Detachment + Second Relic, and for making the warboss fight twice or three times.

Unless the entire codex gets an upgrade in its datasheets, even a third efficient troop choice won't change anything in (very) competitive list building. I'd still rather pay those 180 ponts in gretchins for 10 CPs to invest in making more killy the tankbustas and other stuff than fielding 1.5 units of trukk boyz with the same amount of points with less CPs available and the need to pay more precious points just to complete a single battallion. Minimizing the need of farming CPs has nothing to do with having more efficient troops: 30 boyz are already efficient and not even that expensive comparing to a unit of trukk boyz.

Truth is, pretty much everything in the ork codex is utterly overcosted and even some decent/good units like tankbustas can be good only by investing tons of CPs on them. A simple fix with some price reductions won't change anything unless it's so heavy that we can basically play with 2x the amount of toyz we can field right now, which is definitely not going to happen and I wouldn't even want it.

I think having 6 units of trukk boyz would be an alternative to 3x30 boyz and nothing else. Gretchins have a completely different role than proper orks, even outside the purpose of generating CPs: would you use a trukk full of (efficient) boyz just to sit on an objective and do nothing potentially for the rest of the game? And 6x trukk boyz would be a significant investment in points, I'd rather have 180 points of gakky troops and 300 points of useful toyz than 6x trukk boyz and no toyz.

But I also like the idea of making small units of boyz work since I can't stand playing with the 30 man mobs, I'd really love cutting them from competitive gaming, not the gretchins

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.

In any case, the idea was not to get gretchin off the table, but to enable builds without making 6-9 units mandatory.
If you could substitute 1 unit of 30 boyz with 2 units of trukkboyz, that would be nothing short of perfect. It would automatically reduce the number of gretchin you need to bring, since you don't want more than 9 troops in any case, and if boyz work in trukks, they would also work in bonekrushas.

So, continuing that thought, two units of trukkboyz should cost around 210 points, effectively asking for 21 point trukks. Not going to happen ;(

Well, if Trukkboyz were their own datasheet, the loss of +1 Attack COULD drop them to 6ppm. In which case, you could field 2 units of 12, with 2 62pt Trukkz, for 268 pts. That'd be a fair trade.

Edit: also probably not gonna happen, btw.

Trukk Boyz at 7ppm are fine, max squad at 12 obviously. However, change their rule from +1 attack to +3 disembark AND can disembark and charge after vehicle moved. Trukk boyz in the fluff and game can only function as a shock assault force. slowly going up the board just means you are throwing away points to the enemy for easy kills.

I think 30 point trukks which would force us, rule wise, to take a 12 ork mob along with it, would be perfect. 114 points total seems about right. Make em trukk boys for the keyword so as no mob up stuff. Just say Da ladz took a leaf from the space marine 7th edition codex, the one starting with « battle company » (da unmies got dat right)

If you could reliably get Trukks boys into combat, that would likely make for some more interesting lists.

At 89 points, 12 Boyz is 33 str 4 attacks hitting on 3s, with a nob with big choppa hitting at str 7 ap -1 d2 and 3 attacks, with a potential 4th str 5 attack.

Can’t kill everything but it’s a threat. You could even take them as deathskullz do you could get rerolls in your nob and a save against over watch.

If the trukk got cheap enough it might be worth trying. I’m just unsure what that price point is where it gets good without being too much.

addnid wrote:
I think 30 point trukks which would force us, rule wise, to take a 12 ork mob along with it, would be perfect. 114 points total seems about right. Make em trukk boys for the keyword so as no mob up stuff. Just say Da ladz took a leaf from the space marine 7th edition codex, the one starting with « battle company » (da unmies got dat right)

The issue with that is that you can then threat overload with empty trukks. They're fast enough to easily tie stuff up, and while they don't have crazy durability, at 30 points, they would.

Yup. 30 pt Trukks is probably too little. You could grab 10 of them for less than a 6th of your points and give your opponent 100 T6 Sv4+ Wounds to deal with. Accounting for Ramshackle, your could even say you got 116 Wounds on the table, and that's crazy for just 300 pts.

tulun wrote:
If you could reliably get Trukks boys into combat, that would likely make for some more interesting lists.

At 89 points, 12 Boyz is 33 str 4 attacks hitting on 3s, with a nob with big choppa hitting at str 7 ap -1 d2 and 3 attacks, with a potential 4th str 5 attack.

Can’t kill everything but it’s a threat.

The thing is... it's not a threat. Even without losses from overwatch, they can usually take out one unit like cultists, pox walkers or guardsmen, but anything slightly tougher and they simply fall to kill it and then get gunned down. If you face someone who just bought his first primaris army, you need three units of trukk boyz to get through his 170 point intercessor unit - assuming the three trukks manage to kill the last marine.

I kinda feel like, even optimally done, Trukk Boyz would only fill the same role that Storm Boyz do. Ie: fast unit that ties ranged threats into CC so the rest of the army survives longer.

Which, to me, means they should be closely costed (including the price of a Trukk) to what Storm Boyz should be. Obviously, they're a bit "tougher" since they have ablative Wounds from the Trukk, but they also lose out on Deepstrike, so that could be a wash.

you could change the unit to include a trukk. So the unit is a trukk at 30pts and then 10-12 boyz at 7pts each. that way you get around the chance of someone simply spamming 20 trukkz for crazy levels of board control.

At 30pts and with a max load of boyz you are running 116pts, throw in a PK if they eventually do something and you are up to 130ish pts You could take 10 of them in a list easily enough.

Agree, including the trukk with the unit might be a solution, but probably too creative for an army not wearing power armor.

My 30 point trukk idea was with that condition (12 boys compulsory) but perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.
Just like battle company in 7 th forced tac marines for the free transports.
But as Jiddah said probably too creative for GW (Orks clearly not being a priority for GW, seeing the job they did last year on the new buggies)

Nevertheless it could mean 9 trukks and more than 100 boyz for 1000 points so perhaps a limit on should also be set. Much too creative though