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Today we wanted to make a bigger game and decided to take a gang rating of 750.
In the end we both had 10 members in our gangs and a lot of equipment.
I tried to make a allround gang. But my opponent maximized his gang for shoot out.
It was a little bit frustrating to play against a gang with four henchmen with str 2, Sta 6, Int 2, RC 4 equipped with 2 Peacemaker and really tough and quickdraw as skills.

Maybe the answer is to have more terrain on the table. Although it seems that closing to melee might be troublesome.

However, at RC 4, if your guys are packing 1 def and are in hard cover you've got 3d6 target number 6 versus 4d6 target number, what, 7 assuming the henchmen are within 12 inches of a Bounty Hunter leader? Not that you can get up to TN7.

And even in soft cover you've got 2d6 target number 6 versus their 4d6 target number 6. That's not great, but it is better than getting hosed out in the open throwing one die and hoping to get a...oh, he got 2 successes...

I would put more trees, buildings, fences, cows, out houses, and boulders on your table.

Of course that is also assuming both short range and that your guys moved less than 6". Add long range into the mix for another +1, then if you manage to move more than 6 you've got another +1. You could also have your guys stick close in pairs and throw another +1 target number into the mix.

Maybe BWG needs a system for TNs above 7. You could do the reverse of super Str. If your TN is above 7 you only succeed on a D6 roll of 6 that is re-rolled to get another 6. And if it is 8, well re-roll twice. The lesson there would be to not use Peacemakers when your RC is 4.

It seems that the problem you are encountering is min-maxing by being happy with a TN of 6. If it is going to be 6 anyway from, say long range and cover, why the hell not use a level 6 gun and put your other points into Stamina?

Lots of terrain would definitely be a balancing factor here. Maybe set up the board as the interior of a building with lots of tables, benches, and other items for people to hide behind.

As for TN's above 6, GW used to have a rule where you had to roll a 6 followed by 4+ for 7, 5+ for 8, etc. A little fairer than having to roll three 6's in a row.

It was more frustrating that every henchmen has two health points.

And with 2 str they would probably have a tough arsed time wounding you in melee. Plus I expect their MC Attribute was crap.

I would like to hear from the designer about TNs above 6. It seems like there is a potential for TNs to shoot (pun intended) above 6 pretty frequently, which is perhaps why TNs do not go higher than 6. Once you have two modifiers, that's all she wrote. Anything above that makes no nevermind.

Long range, weapon 1 higher level, that's as bad as it gets. I suppose too that this is why cover provides a defense bonus in addition to a TN penalty.

Perhaps another way to handle the issue is to not allow characters to use equipment of a higher level than their Attribute, except in the case of the Intellect bonus skill and the Bounty Hunter ability. Instead of "without penalty" those skills could simply allow you to do it.

Again, I suppose the purpose of the rule is to allow characters to not be stuck using lower level weapons when they do not have a maxed out RC or MC skill, and that giving those with a RC or MC skill exclusive access to more powerful weapons would make them Attributes more powerful than others.

First, I see lack of access to better equipment as a campaign problem and not a one off problem. Second, +1HP from Stamina is a pretty darn good ability, perhaps fairly balanced by not being able to use a Str 6 Peacemaker until RC 6.

Yeah, you really need more terrain. You want to get the defense bonuses for as many guys as possible.. so if someone wants to max out a henchman with RC6 and 2 colt 45's they can, he's not gonna be rolling 4 or more 6's every time.. in heavy cover your DP will be at least 3. If the other guy doesn't need 6's to hit you almost every time, then you're doing it wrong

I made 6 the max for target numbers really just because that's how high the dice go, and I didn't want to over-complicate things. I was considering making it where you subtract 1D6 from your roll for each number over 6, but I just wanted to keep everything quick & easy & fast. I originally had the base # to hit be 3, but then that made it way too easy to hit people.

If you use 2 45's with RC 4 you only have to roll one 6 with four dice to make a hit. To defend I have to roll one 6 with 3 dice or less, because of the high strength of the 45.
The two 45's are hard, but I have a greater problem with the henchmen with two HP, specially when all 5 henchmen are the same.
Maybe if there would be a random aspect in Gang creation. You do not choose which profile you want to rise, but you roll a d6.

Actually character creation was all random at first. Roll a D6 and that's the attribute you get to raise. that's why there's 6 attributes But, I had a lot of playtesters complain about the randomness and say they just raised the stats they wanted to instead.

The 2 HP is tough.. but then if he's blowing 5 points maxing 1 stat, then there aren't many others left over. Get a couple guys with high quickness & MC to run up in his face and chop him to bits.

There's always going to be min-maxing unfortunately, but I tried my best to make a lot of options to try and counteract it.

MacCall wrote:
If you use 2 45's with RC 4 you only have to roll one 6 with four dice to make a hit. To defend I have to roll one 6 with 3 dice or less, because of the high strength of the 45.
The two 45's are hard, but I have a greater problem with the henchmen with two HP, specially when all 5 henchmen are the same.
Maybe if there would be a random aspect in Gang creation. You do not choose which profile you want to rise, but you roll a d6.

My point is that he had his cake and ate it too. He had the 2 HP Henchmen and had str 6 ranged weapons with no appreciable disadvantage. One might argue that he had the luxury of 2 HP Henchmen because he figured there was no drawback in having RC 4 vs RC 6 other than a loss of 2D6 to the rolls and not having the Deadeye skill. Balance +2D6 to an attack roll against +1 HP and, well, +1 HP is a whole lot better. Ergo, he decided to min/max by using a comfortable RC of 4 and shifting the two Attribute points saved to Stamina for the +1 HP.

Is your point that any Henchman with +1 HP is OP? If they were not allowed to use level 6 equipment at RC 4, then they would have had to have RC 6, meaning every stat other than RC and Sta would have been 1. If they were limited to level 4 weapons, the Str of the attacks would only have been 4, and the range would at best have been 2 inches shorter.

With every stat besides Sta and RC of 1, it would seem that a board with sufficient terrain to allow melee combat to be practical would see the gang have a critical weakness. A completely balanced Henchman with emphasis in Str, Sta, RC, and MC would be throwing 3D6 Str 4 in melee plus a weapon with Parry for a Defense of 2D6 versus an opponent with Brass Knuckles, 1D6 to attack, and 1D6 to defend. In that case, who gives a crap what his HP Attribute is? And if you reduced RC to 2 and bumped MC to 4 you'd have 4D6 Str 6 against the poor, unlucky sucker, or an extra attack at Str 4 and a re-rolled Parry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:
Actually character creation was all random at first. Roll a D6 and that's the attribute you get to raise. that's why there's 6 attributes But, I had a lot of playtesters complain about the randomness and say they just raised the stats they wanted to instead.

The 2 HP is tough.. but then if he's blowing 5 points maxing 1 stat, then there aren't many others left over. Get a couple guys with high quickness & MC to run up in his face and chop him to bits.

There's always going to be min-maxing unfortunately, but I tried my best to make a lot of options to try and counteract it.

If there is a potential weakness in the game, it seems to be that most models are going to need 6s to hit most of the time, so the penalty of doing various things that incur penalties is virtually non-existent.

Firing two weapons +1, Run and gun, +1. Now it doesn't matter that you are also at long range, and your target moved more than 6 inches, and you are using gear at a higher level,and that your target has models in his personal space.

Target in Hard Cover?, why not Run and Gun, throw a shot from long range, and shoot two pistols for extra fun?

Now, as you point out, they system is designed to be fast and simple, which I appreciate. The system contemplates that it just only gets so hard to hit a guy, so if you get to +2 TN, don't count any higher and trust your larger dice pool to make you a better bad-mofo. The only hitch I see is the Super Strength rule. It is the only time that you are penalized for rolling at a TN above 6, which makes one wonder why other instances of TNs above 6 aren't similarly penalized.

It may be a way to balance melee against ranged combat. It may be a way to account for the fact that weapons add to the Str of the model, unlike ranged weapons. How else to make a higher level weapon better than a lower level weapon? It is important to remember, I think, that having MC of 6 and Str of 6 requires 10 Attribute points, of even a Gang Leader's total of 27. That would give you, say, a Gang Leader with stats like this:

Str 6
Sta 6
Int 2
Qui 4
RC 3
MC 6

That is a stout Gang Leader coming at you with a Cavalry Saber, Brute Strength, Strong Arms, Duelist, Charge, Run and Gun, Def 3, HP 4, and a still-respectable ranged weapon. My question would be: does the Brute Strength skill give enough reason to take Str 6 (as opposed to Str 4) even without the Super Strength rule?

The reason I ask is that if the Super Strength rule were removed, one would only need Str 4 to have a melee attack with maxed Strength of 6. So, is there enough of a reason to go with Str 6 without the Super Strength rule? Strong Arms is a sort of broad skill.

Maybe a compromise would be to put the Super Strength forced re-roll into the Strong Arms skill. At least that way one would avoid the confusing nature of only a single instance of a TN greater than 6 causing a penalty, and the only thing that would change is that a character with Strength 5 would miss out on the forced re-roll. But is that so bad as all that? Str 5 would still allow you to rock a max 6 with a cheap level 3 parry weapon, freeing some equipment XP up for other equipment hungry gang members.

weeble1000 wrote:
My point is that he had his cake and ate it too.

Not all of his cake, however. Colt 45s are powerful, but they still only shoot 18". Take a couple of rifles and get some shots off before he can get into range. It's a matter of inches in difference, but it may be enough to peel off one of those HPs before they can return fire.

As for random vs planned character creation, I'm all for planned. I've played enough DnD 3rd Ed and have enough experience with early versions of 40k (Rogue Trader and Confrontation were randomtastic) to not want to play randomly for some time to come. If you did want to introduce some limits, you could rule that Henchmen can't buy stats above 4 or 5 at creation.

EDIT: Also, aren't your skills limted by your Int? Your Gang Leader example would only have two of those skills, not five. Still scary, but not as much as he was before.

cybogoblin, yea, I forgot about the Int limit when I was writing that up.

He may not have had all of his cake, but the crunch seems to be not worrying about the penalty for using higher level weapons working on the assumption that in most cases you will need 6s to hit anyway.

As an aside, I wonder how the Int skills limit works in the campaign system. I did not notice anything about it in the campaign test rules. As I plan on mostly running a BWG campaign, the issue seems important. I expect that one would have a skill limit equal to Int, and be able to replace existing skills with new skills that become available, but that seems odd to me.

The other option would be that once you take a skill you are stuck with it, but then that would lead to folks not taking skills because they are waiting for higher Attribute skills...Maybe I'll make a separate thread about it.

I think the Campaign test rules were written with the original rules in mind where there was no Int limit.

If I were running the campaign, I'd allow people to learn additional skills, but no more than twice their Int. I wouldn't let people swap out skills.

IMO in a general (non objective) game (of any game system) terrain should be balanced. It should have some open areas that allow favor to ranged weapons (and vehicles) but also a good amount of cover allowing CC troops to close without having to cross too many open areas where they get slaughtered.

In some games the objectives will dictate the amount and/or type of terrain.

Yes there should be a good mix of terrain. But if you don't own a lot of it, you could also try shrinking your game board.. If you want quick & fun games a 2x2' board with 2 or 3 buildings and some trees is fine for gangs of 5 or 6 models. That's what I've been doing for demo games, only takes about 15 minutes to play while teaching rules.

I was expecting the standard size for most games would be 4x4, but lately it feels like 3x3 is a good size all around for around 10 models. I usually take a mix of clancys and bandidos with John Blackwood as my sniper

I'm planning to add the campaign rules to the Skinwalker expansion rulebook so if anyone has any good campaign suggestions I'll try and make em happen, so free free to share