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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/


New "quarterly " rules update, which has new points values for admech. I haven't worked out what's changed but I assume some of our toys have been priced up.

marshal + 10
manipulus + 10
rangers + 1
vanguard + 1
infiltrators + 2
ruststalkers +2
ballistarii + 10
raiders + 4
robots - 10
flyers + 20
Omnispex/Datatether +5
and holy orders (+5/+10)

How much point increasesare that in a competetive army in a ballpark estimate?

My list went up 155pts and I didn't think it was all that "meta"

Pts drop on robots may make me rethink them now, seems like they can do a lot these days for 100 pts (2 blasters and a fist).

 Niiai wrote:
How much point increasesare that in a competetive army in a ballpark estimate?

Well you can only take 3 flyers now so max +60 from that lol. Probably save some points bringing more cheaper models in from elsewhere.

The raider increase hits me pretty hard. 20ppm for a model that dies to a stiff breeze makes them less appealing, especially if you compare them to the 19ppm of sicarians.

And only 2 fliers at 2,000 pts.

We definitely got off light.

But Knight remains unchanged, so it became relatively stronger as a shooting platform.

 Suzuteo wrote:
We definitely got off light.

But Knight remains unchanged, so it became relatively stronger as a shooting platform.

I dont think a Raider is worth more than double a Ranger tbh, but they were certainly too cheap before. a similar +2ppm increase as sicarians would have been appropriate instead of the +4 mammoth increase.

I'm also not jazzed about a 10pt Omnispex, 10pt data tether I can see because it has huge wide-reaching benefits even above the standard +1 ld, but 10pts to ignore Light cover? There are so many cheaper ways to increase AP that it feels too much imo.

I'm also not convinced Infiltrators are equivalent to Ruststalkers. 18ppm for Infiltrators I think.

I'd have liked to have seen Core go on Kataphrons, or at least make the cult AoR give it them or something, while they could interact with the rest of the army the 4+ bs/ws was not great but serviceable, without the ability to buff them they're just an expensive meatshield.

We don't know what they've done to everyone else in CA though, so if everything is going up across the board then stuff like Raiders might make sense.

I'm also a little annoyed there's no PL increases. I play crusade with my friends and my 49PL Crusade force went from 1051 to 1140 whereas my friends Drucharii is 50PL but 250pts less than mine. For a system thats supposed to make it generally easier to balance quickly they dont seem to bother making it fair. Just because it's not in a comoetitive scene doesnt mean it should be unbalanced.

Feels weird being back at the drawing board

Not necessarily a bad thing but I have no idea where to start

I’m never commissioning models again though haha 6 fliers and a hefty credit card bill is a valuable lesson learned

Eh, the only change I'm annoyed about is the +5 on Data-tether and Omnispex. I liked the models and 10pts is too much. My list with only 1000pts of AdMech went up 100 points. I wasn't taking the meta configuration, but basically every unit I did use got hit. I just have to keep in mind it's 5% change, or just over 4% after I compensated, so nothing to get bent out of shape over.

I don't think we are actually back to the drawing board. The stuff that was too good is still good enough, outside of very specific spam lists (mostly 27 Raiders or 4+ flyers).
My list basically went -1 Fusilave, +10 Vanguard, which was something I was already considering. The second Fusilave wasn't bad, but I've been struggling with ObSec and was considering the change anyway. With the Knights counting as extra bodies, I expect to have a massively easier time scoring primary. There were a lot of situations where my opponents could kill just enough Vanguard to flip the objective. Hell, I can even just dip a Vanguard's toe into an objective held by the Crusader and make it awful to retake.

For secondaries, I think the Knight change also puts Strangehold back on the menu alongside Engage. I need to experiment more with Banners, but RoD has been reliable with the two Infiltrators. Then I've got Grind Them Down, Bring It Down, and No Prisoners depending on the opponent.

In my experience, even a token Raider unit disrupts the enemy's deployment plans by threatening a turn 1 charge. If they lose the roll-off, I pop +3" move Doctrina and zip into their backline to tag some anti-tank. I'm playing an armor skew list, so they can't afford to waste a turn falling back. If they do bubble wrap, that'll often hamper their ability to move into the midfield. I don't think I want 2 units, because they're otherwise just Engage fodder or bubble wrap. Pre-nerf, I've had two turn games where the Infiltrators and Raiders get in immediately and the Knights advance around the edges with Benediction. The opponent starts his turn 1 with slagged Dreadnoughts and infantry stuck in fruitless melee, with only time to clear the shock troops before the Knights arrive.

So....I was looking at a Mechanicus force as a narrative thing, and more than anything I kind of want to do a legio cybernetics style force.

A spearhead of 3 x 6 robots, each with a datasmith and a dominus in charge fits 2000 points pretty well but does seem unwieldy just with functionally only having 3 game pieces.

If I was to try it, does anyone have any advice on general tactics, weapons loadout, forge world/army of renown, relics and warlord traits based on that model set?

locarno24 wrote:
So....I was looking at a Mechanicus force as a narrative thing, and more than anything I kind of want to do a legio cybernetics style force.

A spearhead of 3 x 6 robots, each with a datasmith and a dominus in charge fits 2000 points pretty well but does seem unwieldy just with functionally only having 3 game pieces.

If I was to try it, does anyone have any advice on general tactics, weapons loadout, forge world/army of renown, relics and warlord traits based on that model set?

If you want to go robot heavy and narrative-wise strong, I suggest running 3 very different robots, because their style changes a lot with different load out and protocols despite the similar look.
One shooting unit that later on plants on a middle / back objective + a datasmith and dominus perhaps
One flexible unit with Flame, Phosphor and a fist + a datasmith and maybe Cawl / Dominus supporting where needed
One melee unit with fists and flamers rund straight and cause mayham, characters probably cant follow if you arent lucius.

Edit: Depending on points you may need to drop a few robots ( one that you dont want to buff as much, like the melee threat one) to fit some troops and other flexible units (I suggest one deepstriking, and one forward deployment one, as control is your main issue and gives you some flexibility and fun in tactics)

Thanks. That's good advice.

I was thinking on going for one maximum dakka, one melee focus and one balanced, and I agree that the latter us going to be my crisis piece so it makes sense to use the dominus with that one as it'll get rerolls via the domins/datasmith pairing.

2 datasmith dominus pairs is so.thing I hadn't thought of, and us probably better than 1 dominus and a datasmith per unit.


I do get the suggestion of other stuff, and throwing in kataphron servitors is a much better tactial choice, I suspect because troops. I'm just not sure I want to.


Edit:

heh.
That works nicely.
One squad 2 x fist and flamer
One 2 x phosphor and fist
One 3 x phosphor

Datasmith/Dominus pair each for the latter two whilst the first runs at people to punch them and for the sake of it an auxiliary detachment with UR-205

Does the Solar Flare relic impact units firing heavy weapons?

Appreciate the strategems does, as it deploys the unit as per strategic reserves.

Thanks

Razerous wrote:
Does the Solar Flare relic impact units firing heavy weapons?

Appreciate the strategems does, as it deploys the unit as per strategic reserves.

Thanks

Yes. Units coming on as reinforcements always count as having moved (rules for reinforcements, in the move phase section). The wording of The Solar Flare is "unit...can be removed form the battlefield and set back up...". I would say that makes it clear they come on following the same rules as other units coming on via deep strike rules.

Wow, the bot heavy list looks both fun and counter META, I'd definitely like to see that in use.

Soooo what's everybodys opinion on a Raven Castellan with Metallica giving him full cabticles. What would a decent list look like considering how much more expensive our toolbox got?

We've discussed the Castellan a lot in the past few pages. You can control F it and go page by page for more information.

I play Raven+Metalica and the big draw is Benediction of the Omnissiah and Invocation of Machine Vengeance. The Castellan doesn't really benefit from either of these. I honestly don't think it's worth the CP.

You bring a Knight Castellan to use Order of Companions. The strat is +60% damage, it's the most efficient use of CP in the game. Consequently, you have to warp your AdMech build around all that CP investment, including relics and traits for the Knight.

The Castellan has a new benefit: now that Mechanicus' anti-tank is nerfed, none of the top builds can kill a Knight in one turn. I would even skip Ion Bulwark for Cold Eradication.

For the AdMech side of the build, I don't know what's best now. It might be worth skewing target saturation by going all infantry with just the Knight. All their mid strength weapons get wasted. Or you can double down on vehicles and overload them that way. I think the latter takes better advantage of the metagame, but I might be biased since that's what I already play.

 DarkHound wrote:
We've discussed the Castellan a lot in the past few pages. You can control F it and go page by page for more information.

I play Raven+Metalica and the big draw is Benediction of the Omnissiah and Invocation of Machine Vengeance. The Castellan doesn't really benefit from either of these. I honestly don't think it's worth the CP.

You bring a Knight Castellan to use Order of Companions. The strat is +60% damage, it's the most efficient use of CP in the game. Consequently, you have to warp your AdMech build around all that CP investment, including relics and traits for the Knight.

The Castellan has a new benefit: now that Mechanicus' anti-tank is nerfed, none of the top builds can kill a Knight in one turn. I would even skip Ion Bulwark for Cold Eradication.

For the AdMech side of the build, I don't know what's best now. It might be worth skewing target saturation by going all infantry with just the Knight. All their mid strength weapons get wasted. Or you can double down on vehicles and overload them that way. I think the latter takes better advantage of the metagame, but I might be biased since that's what I already play.

Thx, completely missed that section.

Anyways: Had a game today

The above mentioned Raven Castellan w cold eradication + the Stygies section :
6x5 skitarii,
2 Marschalls,
2x5 infiltrators
1x10 + 1x5 Ruststalker
2x1 ac-chickens
2x1 Fusilave

Didn't know what I would be playing against: ended up to be Guard with
3 tank commanders
3 basilisks
3 inf squads
2 chimera
1 hellhound
1 knight paladin

We rolled for the mission and got vital intelligence

I got first turn and got some charges off w the rusties binding stuff in combat for quite a few turns. Castellan did kill 1,5 Leman russ, that was it.
But big misplay from me moving him up front to get better line of sights, which resulted in the paladin charging him in his 1st turn after he already got some heavy damage from the basilisks and remaining plasma russes. Reaper chainsword did bring him down.

So... End of round 1 and I lost more than 1/4 of my army and most of my firepower. Yikes.
Over the course of the game all I killed was his infantry, 1 tank commander and the 3 chimera chassis. Also I got tabled in turn 5

Did Win 83:62 tho got full primary and middle range scoring on Rod, engage and bring it down while denying him any primaries until turn 4.
In this case Stygies saved my mechanical @$$

What are people's thoughts on the Skitarii Warlord Traits? What's good?

Is it a good idea to equip data tethers to multiple squads, when running 2-3 bog blobs, to allow you to mix & match the buffs. This is in conjunction with the Host strategem.

And is the Raiment a must have relic? And is this in addition to the Battle-sphere or instead?

All the traits are useful, though some are more niche. The most universally useful is Firepoint. Battle-sphere and Retreat are next most useful, but you can get their effects else where. Usually you just need one source of the effect, so I don't usually see Raiment and Battle-sphere.

You're not generally mixing and matching buffs, but you do want tethers for easier access to Marshall and Veteran Cohort buffs. You don't usually need to stack more than 2 on a unit, typically provided by themself and a Marshall.

What do we think about the new secondaries? I have to shift some points around to fit a sixth Infiltrator on each squad or combine them to 10 for the new Retrieve Data. I'm not sure any other changes demand a shake up, but I haven't dug in yet.

I currently have an army composition that includes a trio of skitari troop blobs (3x20) supported by characters. Lucius FW.

I want to field a trio of Amegier Warglaives, acting as a tough mobile counter punch. To me they seem cost efficient enough to justify the 3CP, lack of house benefits & not getting AdMech synergies. Do you folks agree or have better suggestions?

I think 3 are great, but I'm biased: I run 4. Bear in mind, GT rules added a clause that Super Heavy Aux cost 1cp if the detachment shares a specific faction keyword. The point was to let Tau, Orks, IG, etc. run their super heavies. Most major tournaments have ruled Knights of the Cog counts as sharing a keyword for that rule. I think RAW it doesn't quite work, but ask your opponents and tournament organizers.

They don't get their house benefits, but you can make one a Freeblade and they get access to stratagems. You'll want to mark Warglaives as Krast or shooting Armigers as Vulkner for their stratagems. The Freeblade can be ObSec, and all the Armigers count as 5 models since the last patch (they just don't get ObSec unless they're pure Knights).

Really review the strats, they'll take a lot of practice to maximize. Flanking Maneuver and Full Tilt will catch a lot of opponents unaware. Pack Hunters and Pack Tactics are critical, and I could go on, but I've talked at length in the Knights thread.

All still useful to know, appreciated.

I'd wondered if I should just invest in 5 Ironstriders or a pair of flyers.. the Amegiers just seemed to fit well.

Yeah, it's different tools for different tasks. I had a couple matches tonight at 50PL because the first game was brutally short. It was a perfect example of the first turn charge tricks I talk about. My opponent deployed conservatively, as you can see. However, I won the roll-off and selected Invocation of Machine Vengeance and Aggressor Doctrina. My Raiders on the right flank moved 30" directly in front of his right Leman Russ, butchered the infantry and charged the tank. My Knight and Warglaive both advanced for pretty easy Full Tilt charges. The combined fire of my Knights killed his Demolisher commander. Then my Warglaive made the easy charge to tag his remaining Russ and Chimera.

I swear, it sounds like I tell this story every time. He started turn 1 with his tanks destroyed or in melee, and still more Knights were just outside his deployment zone. He got to move an infantry squad and fall back a little bit. Then I tabled him on the top of turn 2. Invocation of Machine Vengeance is absolutely busted with Full Tilt. The combination of speed on the Warglaives and Raiders demands truly ridiculous deployment concessions. You could get a similar effect with instead more Raiders, some Stratoraptors, and Ironstriders using Dunestrider, with Ruststalkers as a second wave pressure.

This is concerning...

Railguns are now absurd

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
This is concerning...

Railguns are now absurd

Yeah, I was just having a conversation about this with some folks in my local area (as I'm sure many are doing today). It seems the local reaction is (1) at least its only 1 shot that can hopefully miss (2) vehicles aren't meta right now and the submunition strategem can only be used once per turn, or (3) looks like we might need to start using more reserves/reinforcements/infiltrate/deepstrike/etc to try to ensure our anti-armor can get atleast 1 round of shooting off at it.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
This is concerning...

Railguns are now absurd

Tbh I hate that it exists at all. The railgun should be awesome, but to put something like that on a 72" range unit that flies can have its BS improved and gets an inbuilt RR1 is frankly just breaking an already broken ruleset. They may as well just throw the rule book out at this point for what good it does anyone. 6-12 unsavable wounds for rolling 2 dice and getting a 3+ on both? And they can have 3 of those? If anything that one gun alone puts all other vehicles firmly out of meta. At least light vehicles can be plausible given most new anti tank weapons can reliably deal 4-6dmg anyway so they're not hit as hard. But transports, knights all dreadnaughts and any other battle tank might as well not be there.

We'll get similar in a future update.
The HH is a big target. If we cannot kill it off, that's the biggest issue.

Hey guys, I'm tinkering with some changes to my army list and I'd like some input. I'm trying to add more LoS ignoring options to compliment my aggressive opening playstyle (you can see in my last post above). I've been playing a lot of games against Custodes and Crusher Stampedes where I can't just over-run them with the first turn. In these cases I can generally out maneuver and soften them up. I'm trying to lean into that with a Belleros Disintegrator and an Ironstorm launcher on the Knight, in addition to my Fusilave.

I don't have a Disintegrator and don't have much experience with it. Statistically, the three units are just enough to cripple Hive Guard and make their double shooting strat inefficient. Beyond that, the three will significantly pressure small units scoring Engage or actions. I'm just not sure about the Belleros. I'd normally run a second Phosphor Dunecrawler, and they perform extremely well for me.