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I'vs been playing alot of games recently; Mainly 40k + Fantasy and i think there may be some pshycology in wargaming (for example i was playing a 40k game the other day, i was running an ork list including a Looted Waggon.) as most players know Looted waggon are'nt that deadly, yet my opponent was hesitant about fighting it...strange?, i thought so.

another example of this was 2 weeks ago i was playing Wood Elves Vs Tomb Kings, the entire game my oponent feared charging my tree kin.

So what do you think is there some Pshycology in Wargaming?

Of course there is. I'm well-versed in NLP and it works fine in tournaments, especially vs. opponents I already know.

What is NLP?

Psychology definitely has an impact.

I always make a point of intimidating my prospective opponents before a game by dragging them onto the stairwell, placing a telephone directory across their backs and then beating them senseless was a truncheon.

Last month, I not only forgot to do my usual pre-game warm up, I was entertaining some children before the match and I had forgotten to remove my costume and consequently played the game whilst dressed as a Pokemon and was soundly thrashed. (Snorlax)

Obviously this tale proves the value of psychological operations before a conflict, and I can only imagine the crushing weight of defeat had I been wearing my Jigglypuff costume.

What is Pshycology? Something that Sean Connery teaches at university?

Back OT: I've notcied that horde armies tend to panic people a bit at warhammer. 50 men-at-arms can worry a person, even if they have 20 swordmasters facing them. Never underestimate the effects of big blocks of troops.

I always find the opponent knowing something could be deadly is far more useful than it being deadly.

In FoW a lot of opponents are fearful of my British para's artillery doing an all guns repeat, and thus play accordingly. It may be deadly but often not.

Similarly when playing 40K I loved having something in reserve to DS in, never with an objective in mind, but the fear it could do something was useful.

But even as someone working in the field psychology + war games is hokum - unless I want you to think that...

I'm rarely fearful of an enemy unit, I have a different problem alltogether:

I have fanatical obsession with destroying certain units, usually 'favored' units, often times vehicles. I become fixated on making it go 'boom'. lol

Psychology does play a part.

There is something disheartening to the opponent about outnumbering his guys ten to one (green tide) most times, even if he has the biggest badasses in the game.

It even applies if those hordes are all made up of grots.

Seen it happen. 5th ED purifier spam player got freaked about by 180 grots he could easily have mulched, and played keep away and shoot most of the game.


I also found that my Oldcron Nightbringer caused more folk to freak out (by flying through scenery and ignoring S4 attacks) than it really warranted. He wasn't that tough.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
What is Pshycology? Something that Sean Connery teaches at university?

BUAHAHAHAHA!!

Anyway, yes, it does, especially when you don't know the rules and stats for the enemy you're fighting. Personally, once I know the stats and have a few seconds to do the maths, psychology isn't a big deal and I just play the numbers. I used to have a mental block against Eldar (back in the 2nd edition days when I started) because every time I'd play the buggers I'd get beaten and I didn't really know their rules all that well and what chances each of my dudes had vs each of their dudes. Once you know the stats or have played against a particular unit a few times and know what it can and can't do, you tend to be more analytical rather than emotional.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm rarely fearful of an enemy unit, I have a different problem alltogether:

I have fanatical obsession with destroying certain units, usually 'favored' units, often times vehicles. I become fixated on making it go 'boom'. lol

That's one of my downsides, too, but more making everything go boom.

"Objectives? What objectives? 8 armour saves on your Purifiers."

 Krellnus wrote:
What is NLP?

Neuro-Linguistic Programming. You mimic as many aspects as possible to familiarize with another person and then start "leading" thus making suggestions they are likely to take. It really works. Imagine the old joke friends used to make: "Yeah man, just move your troops over there! Trust me brah!". Imagine it would work

Not fully reliable of course, as you do not have your enemy's focus, just like in a normal situation, but it can work and is WELL worth the price.

As a student working towards his masters and PHD in related fields NLP is bunk.

Feel free to reject my argument of authority, please research it yourselves.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
As a student working towards his masters and PHD in related fields NLP is bunk.

Feel free to reject my argument of authority, please research it yourselves.

Same though not at the PhD research level yet in my education. As far as Psych in gaming ummm hrmm I guess there could be considered some but no where near the level that I think you may be inferring.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
As a student working towards his masters and PHD in related fields NLP is bunk.

Feel free to reject my argument of authority, please research it yourselves.

I'm all in on this statement. NLP is snake oil. The best thing it ever did was con some socially inept skeevers out of their cash with that whole speed seduction scam that was running years back.

No, such things dose not affect my play style or how I go about with plans for said game. I know the armies my opponents bring well and such I am not intimidated by a bug beastie or a tank of sorts. I just focus on grinding your forces into a fine red paste

I think personal psychology plays a huge part. I'll go to an extreme, but then go back towards the middle. I have a friend whom I hate to play against. Literraly cannot stand to play him as he is WAAC to a boring point. So I made my mind up to throw the game as much as possible to get it over with.

That's extreme, but some people who are very negative will tend to be more conservative with their troops, and only focus on the bad dice roll... I think it's easier to push them to defeat, or at least conceding the game when they still have a realistic chance.

Heck, I still let myself be brought down by selectively only remembering bad dice rolls as if they were an unending series. But it's all in my own mind.

Concerning NLP: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4155

Psychology can definitely have an impact on a game.

For example:

In my first game against Tau with my Orks, a lone Deffkopta came in via outflank on the second turn and blew up a kitted out Hammerhead in a single shot.

In the next game against the same player, all firepower went straight at my Deffkoptas, with the rest of my army moving unscathed.

 Krellnus wrote:
What is NLP?

It's a pseudo science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Empirical_validity

"There is no scientific support for these assumptions."

Can it?

Definetly. Tell me have you ever deployed any of the IG superheavy tanks? I have noticed that these tend to attract a disproportinate amount of firepower, often far out of proportion to the actual threat of the veihcle. Its the same with a land raider-people fear these amazingly. I myself have become fixated with killing off certain scary units/Warjacks/Warbeasts before now. Large blocks of infantry=holy crap moment for the foe. Scary beasts? Dont expect them to last. Also the individuals morale can affect game play-as matty described above.

All in all psycology is a major factor in the hobby.

Psychology can definitely have an effect on a game. To see this, all you really need to do is have Marbo in your guard army or in the guard allied contingent. Your opponent will almost always set up a little bit different knowing that someone can appear and toss a demo charge at something valuable. To a lesser extent, if I field Yymgarl Genestealers, for some reason my opponent never wants to set up his models in terrain pieces.

Also another trick I have heard is that if you paint your less important units to the best of your ability, but your more dangerous models have lesser or even no paint jobs, your opponent will focus more fire quite often on the painted models since they 'mean' more to the player, or because they are well painted they are perceived as more of a threat since they are more visible and stand out.

Playing against things you are not used to plays a part too. I dropped 500pts shooting at ratlings. Didn't know them. Didn't like them. After they died my troops were too far left field to help in any way at all. Now I know better..... Still hate playing against IG....

Psychology???

Oh, you mean Jedi mind tricks. Well, yes, they are a part of the game....if you have the abilty

Really, hang out with a few con artists and you will eventually learn how to put the mind screw to an opponent. Just don't blame me for getting ripped of by those con men while you get your education.

I've run into abusive WAAC players who like to get "angry" to try to scare their opponents into basically wilfully losing.
But I'm not a little kid or a teenager so when they try that I just look at them and say "I came here to play and have fun if you yell at me one more time we're going to step outside for a chat."

Then they tend to curl up in a little ball and surrender. Never let a player "bully" you into losing.

Of course the biggest mind killer of all is simply to not allow people to cheat. 40K for some reason is the most cheating tabletop game I've ever played. People are constantly convieniently misreading, intentionally trying to mis-interpret the rules, and forgetting key rules.

Example I was playing my Space Marines against an Ork horde. He advanced out of a forrest and was stringing out half the mobs towards my troops and running while leaving half the mob in cover to get a cover save for the unit.
So I open fire, and he starts pulling models out of the forrest. I'm like what are you doing? He's like What? I said (last edition) you have to remove models that are out of cover before removing models that are in cover.
Then he made me dig out the rulebook to show him. Then tried to re-arrange some models. I had to stop him again.
Finally got him to remove them properly and to maintain coherency it basically meant I shot him all the way back to the treeline.
Of course he was boned at that point because he now had half his boyz, and still had the same amount of ground to cover.
Had he done the right thing, and moved the whole mob up instead of trying to be a rules ninja. He would have lost half the mob to shooting, and the following turn the rest would have been able to Waaaagh! and charge my guys.

I could run down 1,000 of such instances where when you catch them at it they throw a fit, and lose badly.

Another example a player would roll his saves if the roll was good he would pull models. If they were bad he would go "Oh I forgot to assign wounds!" then assign wounds and re-roll the dice. I caught him the third time he tried it. He got lucky on his saves and failed only one save at a critical moment. He was needing 5's and 6's so it was a hot roll. I said "Uh oh you forgot to assign wounds you'll have to re-roll them." He threw a miniature fit, and argued for a second, re-rolled and failed all but 2 saves. lol
Then of course the 1000's on instances of the magical floating tape measure. He did it once I pointed it out, he argued. I told him if he did it again I was going to call a judge and have him disqualified as failing to measure properly is blatant cheating.
Then there was the bouncing wave serpent. He measured his move and was waaay short of where he wanted to be so he moved it anyway. Then goes oh wait I don't want to do that and sort of moves it back to almost where it was. Then measures to another spot and a repeats this, and then back to where he originally wanted to go and magically he was in range.
I said "Would you like to remove that model from the table or explain that to the judge." he was like huh what? Then I called him out for blatantly cheating on his movement.

Another fun/funny instance. A player deploys his land raider sideways against his deployment zone. Then moves it 12" sideways, then pivots it facing forwards to gain an extra 2" of movement. Really loud I said "Oh WOW I DIDN'T KNOW LAND RAIDERS WERE SKIMMERS!" which of course quickly brought a red shirt over to see this skimming land raider. I explained to him what the player had done to get his extra 2". At first he thought he was clever until my buddy at another table busted out with "Hey man cut him some slack some people aren't lucky like us and need that extra 2" and the entire store ROFLTAO.
He was like "Well it's not illegal." to which I said "Neither is marching your troops across the table backwards it just looks slowed as h***." I then said "I tell you what IF you want to win that badly I'll just give you the game." and packed up my models. Everyone game him dirty looks he packed up his stuff and left, and never returned.

Psychology is very very fun to use! Tricky too, and with questionable results, but fun! At tournaments (assuming I don't know the opponent) I act like a baby seal. I'm a high schooler still, so I always try to act like a new player. Of course, I always end up knowing what I'm doing somehow... but I like it when people assume I won't be a challenge. However, later on in the event (assuming I'm still in the running), people kinda notice that I have to be somewhat decent to be undefeated. At this point I stop acting like a noob, and try for the horde-intimidation. My absolute favorite is to withhold spawns, and after my opponent has killed some gants, I spawn all at once. I love telling my opponent that I now have more points on the board than I did before he shot me, and I'm getting closer... Completely overwhelming my opponents prized units is also a joy.

 jifel wrote:
I act like a baby seal.

Opposing player: Right, I'm just going to measure...
jifel: ARF ARF *waves arms about on the table and knocks over miniatures*
Opposing player: I.... what?
jifel: ARF ARF *pulls self onto table with 'flipper' arms. Mandollies fly everywhere*
Opposing player: You know what, I think I'll call that one yours.

Good strategy, jifel

Psychology has quite a big part to play in this game. I have a friend who modeled his rough riders as awesome guardsmen on motorbikes with chainsaw-lances leaping over ramps and cover. He then goes around telling people (totally fake) stories of the amazing feats of this unit. The unit dies first turn almost everygame, and then the enenmy is flattened by artillery.

I also find my dark eldar raider/venom rush works spectacularly.First turn im out of line of sight, second turn im but a few inches from your gunline with hoardes of angry wyches, incubi and halequins about to jump out on you. Players tend to make mistakes.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Definetly. Tell me have you ever deployed any of the IG superheavy tanks? I have noticed that these tend to attract a disproportinate amount of firepower, often far out of proportion to the actual threat of the veihcle.

Have to agree with this. Malcadors are garbage. They're worse than their points in Leman Russes, and by a decisive margin. If you're playing even remotely competitively you would never consider bringing such an overpriced point sink to a 1500 point game. And yet pretty much every time I bring one to a normal game my opponent's reaction is "OMG SUPERHEAVY SCARY!!!!!" followed by everything focusing on the poor Malcador and killing it before it fires a shot. And that's the most useful thing my superheavies ever do, soak up fire that would otherwise be going to those Medusas/veteran squads/etc.


Of course, like all "psychology", it only works against inexperienced players. Against people who understand the game none of these tricks will ever work.

There is a lot of gamesmanship in 40k. However, after playing five 40k editions and most of the different armies along the way. Very little "tricks" me into undo attention. I see others set the hook all the time.

Yes, cheating does happen all the time. Not knowing the rules could constitute cheating I guess. Over the years I've found knowing the rules inside and out goes a long ways in keeping people honest.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Another fun/funny instance. A player deploys his land raider sideways against his deployment zone. Then moves it 12" sideways, then pivots it facing forwards to gain an extra 2" of movement. Really loud I said "Oh WOW I DIDN'T KNOW LAND RAIDERS WERE SKIMMERS!" which of course quickly brought a red shirt over to see this skimming land raider. I explained to him what the player had done to get his extra 2". At first he thought he was clever until my buddy at another table busted out with "Hey man cut him some slack some people aren't lucky like us and need that extra 2" and the entire store ROFLTAO.
He was like "Well it's not illegal." to which I said "Neither is marching your troops across the table backwards it just looks slowed as h***." I then said "I tell you what IF you want to win that badly I'll just give you the game." and packed up my models. Everyone game him dirty looks he packed up his stuff and left, and never returned.

So what you're saying is that your opponent did something perfectly legal, you ranted about "skimmers" as if the skimmer rules have anything to do with the situation (they don't, the pivot + move trick had nothing to do with whether the vehicle was a skimmer or not), and then you ragequit and shunned him from the store. You might want to reevaluate YOUR attitude before criticizing other people.

I said (last edition) you have to remove models that are out of cover before removing models that are in cover.

If by "last edition" you mean 5th edition, you're wrong. Every model in that unit had cover (assuming 50% or more were in the terrain), and there is no rule that requires you to remove models that were out in the open before models that were in cover. If this game did happen in 5th it's too bad you bullied your opponent into accepting your mistake and cost him the charge he deserved to get.

I'm with Peregrine... I don't at all see how the dude did anything wrong here. The "rotate for extra movement" trick is not now at all. It has disadvantages, such as giving side armor shots, and if it gets immobilised most of its weapons are useless.

@Lord of Timbraxia: Close enough! I actually meant just acting like an unexperienced player (as my age would suggest). However, I totally have to try that now...