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Hey guys...

I finally decided it, i will not keep myself at a system that i think is flawed, managed by a company who dont want to sell to me (but to 13 year old boys). Im quitting 40k.

But i still like wargames, and i want to keep myself at the painting and playing of the hobby, so i will take another game and play it...

Right now, im beetween Infinity and Warmachine, other player at my area are starting and will migrate too, more or less to what i decide.

I pretty know infinity (never played a game, but made extensive researchs and such).

What i want to know is more about Warmachine: how the company deal with costumers? Do it direct the products to old AND new people? The rules are balanced and dont tend to help newer armies? There is some type of codex creep?

And the main point, do those systems really work with low model count army? Its just i dont see myself assembling and painting big units, and i really wanted a more "skyrmish-like" game...

Thank you guys in advance...

Infinity is inherently a low model count army, being a skirmish game. Even big games typically have under 15 models per side.

Depends on what people play around your area

would suck to buy one thing but find out everyone else plays the other but as you posted, id ask your group to see what they like as both games have different aesthetics.

I vote Warmachine. Head on down to the Privateer Press forums and you'll get a some good tips to starting out.

Privateerpressforums.com

Infinity is, in my opinion, a superior game, but you'll likely have many more potential people to game with if you go the Warmahordes route.

If you're all selling off your 40k armies, you should have enough cash to get a force for both and perhaps enough left over for some Malifaux...

Really depends, the 3 facets are: Game quality, Miniature appeal, available opponents.

If you can't get all 3 to a level that appeal to you, then why bother.

Personally, Miniature appeal is my number one need. So I can't play a game if I am not interested in the Minis.

Others want a tight ruleset with real balance and tactical significance.

Others simply want someone to play against.

So see if you like the models, if you have available opponents then find a game you enjoy.

There's also the potential for looking at getting into the Beyond The Gates of Antares kickstarter. It's made by Rick Priestley, the guy who created 40k in the first place, in conjunction with Warlord Games, headed by Paul 'Fat Bloke' Sawyer - the guy in charge of White Dwarf back in the good old(ish) days.

On that note, Warzone is coming back, and what they're showing us thus far looks pretty damn good. If you're coming from 40k you might want to keep an eye on that one.

Infinity's rules are online for free so you can all try it out with no outlay. Then if you like the rules you can get the models - most of which I think look fantastic

Personally I don't like the look of warmachine models at all so I never even got as far as looking at the rules.

My vote goes to Infinity. The ruleset comes packed with a lot of stuff to learn and keep track of (expect your first few games to be composed of "wait, you mean that model can do WHAT?), but it's wonderfully written, very well balanced, and great fun all throughout. Additionally, the models are fantastic, some of the best in the industry.

Warmachine/Horde's models tend to be a notable detractor for me. Some are good, but a lot are awful. The ruleset itself is decently written (certainly better than the 40k rulebook), but it suffers from the same issue Infinity does of simply having a lot to keep track of. However, unlike Infinity, a lot of those rules feel like they're more convoluted and complex than they need to be.

Try both. I play warmachine and recently got into Infinity. They scratch entirely different itches.

Infinity is my sch-fi skirmish game.

Warmachine is my competetive beat down game.

Privateer Press is great to their costumers. Easy replacement parts, releases are great but not overpowered or mandatory to be competitive or fun. A lot of support in league form for new plays (journeyman), expereinced players (steamroller and leagues), and true high level players (Hardcore, Masters, etc).

I can't say I've noticed any power creep at all. Some will argue differently, but the game is as balanced as I've found out there.

You really can't go wrong with either system.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
If you're all selling off your 40k armies, you should have enough cash to get a force for both and perhaps enough left over for some Malifaux...

This.

Personally I think Infinity has some of the best mechanics of any wargame, and I love the interaction they have with the community. That being said, horses for courses and all that, I would go with the one you like the concept and imagery of the most (and of course, as Nkelsch says, player group is very important also).

id go with infinity first since its so much cheaper, warmachine is too but not as low as infinity

Both are great companys, looking to get young and old alike into the games.

Now Infinity is a "First Person Shooter", where real world tactics, such as hugging cover and shooting the guy in the back are important.

Then there is PP press games witch are "MtG or Yu-Gi-Oh", where you are trying to pull off the killer combo to finish there "life points" or as PP calls it Warcasters.

Two totally different play sytle, both alot of fun. I play both, but would vote for Infinity as the better of the two any day.

I have a stronger preference towards Infinity primarily because I love the models and find the rules to be more towards my preference.

Warmachine is, essentially, a very combo-driven game. You exploit the synergies between units to be best of your ability and you have tons of static and triggered abilities. It's not bad, but it somewhat feels like you're playing Magic: the Gathering with miniatures. Much of the game really is like 40k in that positioning only really matters for the sake of whether or not you're in range of something.

Infinity, on the other hand, does NOT have a lot of strict synergy between models and units. Most of the synergy is created by tactical placement and position on the board. Positioning matters exceptionally and even the most mediocre unit can be useful. Additionally, there are a ton of actions each model can perform and the majority of them are shared, common, and explained in the main rulebook. Additionally, most attacks are very lethal and most models have only one "wound".

Of the two, I definitely prefer Infinity.

Then again, it depends on the type of games you like. What about 40k's gameplay did you not like?

Infinity is really fun and very low cost. Warmachines is good and isn't too high on cost so no reason you couldn't do both.

 Absolutionis wrote:

Warmachine is, essentially, a very combo-driven game. You exploit the synergies between units to be best of your ability and you have tons of static and triggered abilities. It's not bad, but it somewhat feels like you're playing Magic: the Gathering with miniatures. Much of the game really is like 40k in that positioning only really matters for the sake of whether or not you're in range of something.

Are you having a fething giraffe? Whilst Warmahordes may very well be behind Infinity in the "tactical detail" stakes (no idea, never played Infinity) it is in no way like 40k in that respect. 40k is just "cinematic" dice rolling. Warmahordes is nothing of the sort. You could not be more wrong. Positioning and distance matter massively in Warmahordes, backstrike, assassination runs, trampling, allocating focus, leaching fury. The list goes on. To prop up this strawman to make Infinity look better just makes you look petty.

Both are great, but I'd recommend a demo before committing to either. Personally, I enjoy warmachine more, and think it's more "analogous" to 40k in terms of the type of game. Infinity is a true skirmish game and you're going to be using 10 models in most games. In Warmachine you can use a lot more than that at 50 points...

Something that I failed to mention and apparently a lot of people have as well, is about power creep.

In Infinity, frankly, it doesn't exist. If you're playing, say, Haqqislam, those old-ass Ghulam from the ranges beginnings are still great backline defenders. Those Naffatun are still great at lighting things on fire. Those old Jannisary models are still tough as nails heavy infantry. They're all still very viable.

Infinity has a fan motto of 'it's not your list, it's you'. Basically, anything can work, as long as you have a clear goal in mind when you make your list and know how you want to play it.

It's often recommended with Infinity, for people starting, to just buy the models they think look cool. That's a very common thing to do with new players, which ends up biting them in the ass because the models they bought, while they look cool, might not fit into a legal army or work well as an army. With Infinity, it's what you should do, because as long as you can make a legal army out of the cool models you bought, you can make them work on the table.

 -Loki- wrote:

It's often recommended with Infinity, for people starting, to just buy the models they think look cool. That's a very common thing to do with new players, which ends up biting them in the ass because the models they bought, while they look cool, might not fit into a legal army or work well as an army. With Infinity, it's what you should do, because as long as you can make a legal army out of the cool models you bought, you can make them work on the table.

Exactly the same can be said for Warmahordes. I told this exactly thing to several people who were just starting out. Though you'll hear a lot of the more experienced players talking about combos and synergy, it seems like a lot to digest and can be intimidating. I told them to ignore that aspect of the game and just get whatever models they thought looked cool, then move onto synergising etc. later on.

No one talk about Heavy Gear or Flame of War...

IMO, Read the books first, find the gaming system you like and play it. If you play a game because you like the minis and you hate the game system,,, that useless.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

It's often recommended with Infinity, for people starting, to just buy the models they think look cool. That's a very common thing to do with new players, which ends up biting them in the ass because the models they bought, while they look cool, might not fit into a legal army or work well as an army. With Infinity, it's what you should do, because as long as you can make a legal army out of the cool models you bought, you can make them work on the table.

Exactly the same can be said for Warmahordes. I told this exactly thing to several people who were just starting out. Though you'll hear a lot of the more experienced players talking about combos and synergy, it seems like a lot to digest and can be intimidating. I told them to ignore that aspect of the game and just get whatever models they thought looked cool, then move onto synergising etc. later on.

The thing about that is I still play with all my Infinity models, becouse there no, I need this model to pull off this combo. While, not a lot mind you, but there are PP models I have and really like that never see the table top, becouse they just are not worth playing. Like I said I like both, but you can end up with wasted models/money by just buying, for no other reason than i don't syngergise with your other models. I relly think with PP you need to know what combo you want to beable to pull off then buy thous models. Not saying you should plan your Infinity buys too, but that with Infinity I can change 1-2 models and my force will work just as well, PP you likely have to change your whole list idea.

hellpato wrote:
No one talk about Heavy Gear or Flame of War...

That would be because the OP didn't ask about those games.


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 Grimtuff wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

It's often recommended with Infinity, for people starting, to just buy the models they think look cool. That's a very common thing to do with new players, which ends up biting them in the ass because the models they bought, while they look cool, might not fit into a legal army or work well as an army. With Infinity, it's what you should do, because as long as you can make a legal army out of the cool models you bought, you can make them work on the table.

Exactly the same can be said for Warmahordes. I told this exactly thing to several people who were just starting out. Though you'll hear a lot of the more experienced players talking about combos and synergy, it seems like a lot to digest and can be intimidating. I told them to ignore that aspect of the game and just get whatever models they thought looked cool, then move onto synergising etc. later on.

But I'm not talking about just learning the game. Infinity is based around winning through superior battlefield tactics. Warmahordes, while playable without looking into the synergy behind units, it still based around that synergy. At higher levels of competition, even amongst friends, poorly thought out army lists will struggle against better thought out army lists. The game can every much be won at the army list stage.

Infinity is a lot more flexible. At tournaments, you won't see 'builds', because there are none. While there are some built in combos (Remotes need Hackers, for example), none of them are critical to winning. If you bring a hacker, you're not hamstringing yourself by not bringing remotes. If you fight someone with a TAG and thus a smaller order pool, while you have a lot of heavy weapons and a bigger order pool, they can still out play you just as easily as you can out play them on the table.

Any two experienced players can build an army in Infinity out of any combination of troops, as long as it's legal, and have to out play each other tactically on the table, without worrying that their opponent built a better 'combination'. They just need to know how to use the models they brought.

Something like this just doesn't happen in Infinity.

Hm, im more and more inclined for Infinity...

The situation is more or less like this around here: i always liked miniatures, but only decided to start with 40k some 3 years ago, but no one around wanted to play it (people actually dont even know it existed), so my only option for a couple of games where going to a far city (4-5 hours driving), where even them would be a handfull of people...

Now im quiting 40k for the said reasons, and i hope people in my city will like a skyrmish game with lower model count more than 1 time i heard "so what i need to start in that miniature game you play", and just forgot about it when i said "with 100 dollars you start a 700 points army, and them scalate it until 1500 points" (wich would turn in a bigger problem now, that the entry cost is 150 dollars, and regular game size is 2000 points).

Actually, my friends like the ideia of wargaming, but the cost just make them forget it. But, if Infinity is like what people say, them those guys who "just want to have the fun", can buy a starter set for 50 bucks (even less) and still enjoy the game very well (even if the community turns into something hardcore).

When i come to 40k, i was quiting Magic (the TCG), tired from the constant change, and the increasing costs (lets call it "collection creep"). I thought 40k would be diferent, but there is a codex creep (not like magic i know, but it is still there). Aparently warmachines is not so great, because casual players (or tactical geniuses casual players) will not have the possibility of just grabing some cool looking miniatures and "work it out".

Also, those guys at the far city actually play Infinity, almost like the "secondary game" (after 40k). While 2 of them have warmachines armys, but dont play anyway...

Thank you all people, i think i made my mind

PS: the comic just remembered me of my magic times. Ocurred half the time with me on those days.

With Infinity costing all of $50 or so to play, I don't see why you wouldn't go for both if you were considering both. There should be plenty of cheap starter forces around made up of the factions from the two warmahordes starter boxes, as well.

Rules for both are free on the web.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Are you having a fething giraffe? Whilst Warmahordes may very well be behind Infinity in the "tactical detail" stakes (no idea, never played Infinity) it is in no way like 40k in that respect. 40k is just "cinematic" dice rolling. Warmahordes is nothing of the sort. You could not be more wrong. Positioning and distance matter massively in Warmahordes, backstrike, assassination runs, trampling, allocating focus, leaching fury. The list goes on. To prop up this strawman to make Infinity look better just makes you look petty.

I understand, but comparing the two, Infinity cares much more about ranges.

Warmachine is comparable to WHFB/40k in that it's a very binary you're in range or you're not. You say your unit is shooting, measure, and then if you're out of range, you miss; if you're in range, you roll dice. There are also several concepts like control areas and special abilities/spells that enact rules across a certain area (That Menoth jack that turns control area into difficult terrain), but ultimately they're still a binary you're affected or you're not. Arc Nodes exist for the purpose of extending the range of abilities.

Infinity, usually works in bands of information. Even the most basic rifle is mediocre at ranges 0-8", positive modifier to hit at 8-16", negative from 16-24", and very negative from 24-48". Different weapons will have different bands and modifiers; notably shotguns have positive modifiers at short ranges (rifles have no modifier at short), combi rifles have positive short AND medium ranges, sniper rifles have large bands (0-12 / 12-36 / 36-52 / 52-104). Depending on which range band your target falls in, you have different modifiers, and different weapons have different ideal ranges.

Both Warmachine and Infinity care about facing, and that is a significant step up in complexity from 40k. However, Infinity's core mechanic focuses on the reaction. Positioning is really EVERYTHING. If your opponent performs an action (move, shoot, etc) within sight of your models, you get a reaction such as shooting at them. Ideally, you want to position your models in such a way as to make it very risky for your opponent to move/shoot/etc in sight of many of your units. Not only this positioning matters, but you have to keep in mind the bands of distances your weapons are most effective; that guy with a shotgun isn't going to be doing very well protecting a 16" long corridor. Your opponent, on the other hand, will be doing their best to position themselves so they minimize risk to themselves while maximizing effectiveness of their attacks.

 Grimtuff wrote:
(no idea, never played Infinity)

Also, apparently you need a macro/meme image nowadays to be right, so here you go; I'll distract from your main point as well.
I raise your muscular burly thespians making faces and give you Spiderman fighting against your case:


So you, sir, are the giraffe. Here is an image of Spiderman fighting against you:


DOUBLE IMAGE MACRO Q.E.D.

(to be honest, I'm shocked there really was an image a spiderman and a giraffe)

 Absolutionis wrote:


So you, sir, are the giraffe. Here is an image of Spiderman fighting against you:

Spoiler:

DOUBLE IMAGE MACRO Q.E.D.

(to be honest, I'm shocked there really was an image a spiderman and a giraffe)

Mate, don't waste your time with Grimtuff. He has me on ignore because he once addressed me in the same aggressive, pithy manner, and when I retorted in kind he got very upset, cried like a girl and now doesn't see anything I type.

Like several posters he can give it but he doesnt like to take it. I suggest you don't waste your possibly hilarious retorts on a bloke who soon wont be able to see them.


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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
If you're all selling off your 40k armies, you should have enough cash to get a force for both and perhaps enough left over for some Malifaux...

Wait until the price rise in April and you will be able to buy a jet-ski, a helicopter, 4 racehorses, a yacht and legions of hookers. You might as well feth war gaming off altogether.

I'm shocked as well, how long did it take you to find that picture?

I play both, and so should you!

It all depends on what you want from your games. Infinity has a low model count, but most of the time and money saved will go into building terrain, in my experience - Infinity has really heavy terrain demands. If there is a local Infinity scene but no WM/H scene, that weights in Infinity's favor (unless you want to build your own community - I am currently writing an article series on Community building on the Datasphere forum: http://datasphere.codestrike.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=96). Also, what models you like should matter. Both systems give you the opportunity to play pretty much any army you like without missing out on competitiveness, if that is your thing.

The two games are very different. One of WM/H's main selling points as a system is that it has the clearest, most concise rules out there at the moment, and that the learning curve isn't nearly as drastic as Infinity (which sometimes reminds me of this Eve Online comic: http://bit.ly/YJbciz (post 2) ). WM/H runs on a I go, You go basis, Infinty has an integrated reaction system that means that while you get the real work done in your active turn, you still get to have some impact on the game in your reactive turn. Despite many claims to the contrary, experienced Infinity players can noob-stomp with the best of the experienced WM/H players, in what often seems a very one-sided manner. This can also happen with more experienced players - I play perhaps once a week now and have played for two years, and the turn 1 or turn 2 losses and wins with no casaulties to the winner still happens now and then (for different reasons, though: Infinity can get really swingy sometimes due to the D20 roll-under-but-higher-but-crits-autowound system. When I lose a WM/H game, even the games where I get diced feel close. Last week I lost my entire Nomad force to a single model, which walked into overlapping fields of fire from a group of 6 models total, taking 4-6 dice against his 4 - 2 of the rolls unopposed in the first 3 orders - with every Order with only slightly better to hit odds, and still plowing through them all due to a lot of crits and bad to hit/armour rolls on my part). This wednesday, a player lost on scenario in turn 1 as the opponents Engineer skipped through his defensive fire and succeeded on two critical WIP rolls after getting a lucky objective designated as the important one.

As with any system, it is best to start off against players of equal skill.

Infinity is probably the best game for campaigns and scenario play in a "cinematic" mode. It sometimes feels like a tabletop RPG game, with the models providing a lot of "personality". WM/H's tournament scenarios are very well-balanced, but are definitely designed for tournaments and competitive play. The Paradiso Campaign ones for infinity can be extremely fun (even if you cannot just bring whatever you want to them, as our Cossack-focused Ariadna player is currently finding out - his lack of hackers is really hurting him) and it is a lot of fun to play self-designed scenarios. WM/H is definitely best for tournaments, and not just because of the rules - again, Infinity's terrain demands are extremely heavy. We can put up 3 Infinity tables now, after a year of building with a small group. A month ago I held a 20-table WM/H tournament where we built all the terrain in half a year.

That being said, I recommend starting both. They are very different and give me very different experiences when playing. You can start small with both games - you'll easily get a dozen games out of a WM/H battlebox and as many out of the Infinity starters (although I recommend using these starters: http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/downloads/rules/[en]QSR-A4.pdf instead of the official starter boxes). If one of the systems don't strike your fancy, you can drop it. In my local group, there are a lot of players who play both - or even other systems.