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I unintentionally seem to be having a fair number of heavy weapons troops among my Chaos troops. Would it be worth it to clump them all together into a squad or should I continue to just use them as display pieces? Furthermore, am I able to attach a heavy weapon to a standard Chaos squad like I can with a loyalist squad?

Yes, and yes. Do you have a codex?

I do and yeah, after I posted, I noticed that it does have a heavy attached to the squad. but what if I'm running a Plague Marine force? The Codex doesn't say anything about heavy weapons, just two specials. So if Plague Marines can't use heavies, which I assume to be the case, is it worthwhile to back them up using a Havoc squad?

Havocs with auto cannons are usually a good idea.
What do you normally run in heavy support?

Havocs with heavy weapons need to be static to be effective and an enemy unit can eventually get a cover save when it is shot.
This makes Havocs questionable. I prefer units which can move and fire heavy weapons like Obliterators.

I've actually been shifting my havocs out for predators.
CSM has cheaper predators than C:SM. For 115 points you get 2 LCs and one AC. For that same cost you can get 4 ACs with havocs.

So your getting one less heavy weapon, but your platform is much more durable. A predator sitting behind an aegis is extremely hard to shift. A squad of havocs is extremely easy to shift.

To mitigate that, you can bring larger havoc squads or put them in a bastion, but doing so incresaes their overall cost removing their advantage of 'cheap heavy weapons'.

Some people swear by them. Try them and see how they work for you. They might work for you. They did not for me.

The answer to your question is largely determined by the type of game you are playing, and which opponent you are facing.

Labmouse hit the nail on the head with the Predator. In games where mobility is key, or you will not have a suitably strong location to be firing from, the Predator is IMO the better option.

In any game where you have a solid location (bunker, fortress, etc) the Havocs are a wonderful choice.

Also remember that Havocs are able to take Flakk missiles, which makes them a valid AA unit.




On a side note, placing 5 Havocs with the Mark of Nurgle in a Rhino and drive them within range of your preferred target... disembark and light 'em up... quite entertaining.

Keep your havocs cheap. 7 guys (for ablative wounds) and 4x autocannons. Take those with a pair of obliterators and you have a decent fire base.

 kronk wrote:
Keep your havocs cheap. 7 guys (for ablative wounds) and 4x autocannons. Take those with a pair of obliterators and you have a decent fire base.

Here is the problem with 7 man havoc squads.
Your paying 141 points for 4 heavy weapons. Sure, you have 3 ablative wounds, but your also taking break tests when you lose 2 guys Your third ablative wound is the LD 9 model, which means your breaking are 27.77% once the third model is gone. Owch

The best way to use those IMHO, are to take two squads with a bastion. Stick the 7 man squad on top of the bastion and the 5 man squad inside.
If you put a comm-relay on the bastion your looking at a total of 351 points for 8 autocannons, 2 HBs, and comm-relay and cover for any models behind it.

 Barzam wrote:
I do and yeah, after I posted, I noticed that it does have a heavy attached to the squad. but what if I'm running a Plague Marine force? The Codex doesn't say anything about heavy weapons, just two specials. So if Plague Marines can't use heavies, which I assume to be the case, is it worthwhile to back them up using a Havoc squad?

plague marines cannot use heavy weapons.

Havocs are great, lascannons or autocannons.

I like VotLW on my havocs. Keeps my big guns from running away longer.

I also take 6 guys total so I have two guys to man a quad gun.

thanks for the help guys.

@ Skoffs- I'm actually building my first proper army here, hence why I ask if they're worthwhile. So, to answer your question, I don't run anything just yet. I'm looking to fix that though.

Overall, it sounds like the best thing to do would be to just go ahead and build a squad anyway and get a Predator so I can have the most flexibility. Sounds good to me.

So, another question then, what tends to be a good selection of weapons to equip the squad with? You all mentioned Autocannons, is that generally the best choice?

ACs or LCs are the real two choices.

Here is the kicker on MLs and Flak missiles. Most flyers are AV 12 and the Flak is Str 7. Sure, you have your full BS (3+) to hit flyers, while everything else has to hit flyers on a 6, but you have to pen AV 12 on a 6.

When LCs do hit they have a 50% chance to pen (4+) and due to being AP 2, get a +1 on the vehicle damage chart, so they blow up a vehicle on a pen 33% of the time (5+). ACs have to pen on a 6 and then have a standard chance to blow up the vehicle. But ACs have 2 shots and tear up troops, MCs, light transports and strip off HPs compaired to the MLs 1 shot.

Now look at the points for a AC, a Flak ML, and a LC. Gee, those ACs are super cheap, and the LCs are cheaper than the flak MLs. If you want to glance a flyer to death, ACs and Flak MLs will do that for you. But if you want it shot down, LCs are what you want. I will also point out there are a few AV 14 flyers out there, and with every new codex there is a chance for a new one.

Personally, I was all over the Flak MLs at first, but have been convinced they are not worth it. If I were you, I would play a few games with both a Havok squad and a Pred, then double up which one you liked the most. This will make sure you have the firepower you want and make sure that your firepower isn't quickly taken out.

Who has an av14 flyer?

 BlkTom wrote:
. Most flyers are AV 12 and the Flak is Str 7. Sure, you have your full BS (3+) to hit flyers, while everything else has to hit flyers on a 6, but you have to pen AV 12 on a 6.

MOST?

AV10 Dakkajet, Blitsbomber, Burnabomber, Razorwing
AV11 Voidraven, Storm Talon, Nelaphin, Dark Talon, Night Scythe, Doom Scythe
AV12 Storm Raven, Helturkey, Vendetta, Valkarie

so of the vehicles flyers 28% (4/14) have AV12 on the front and sides. Half of those are undercosted, OP, 4th edition skimmer rules Vendetta and Valkarie. only 1 has AV12 on the back.

you also have FMC
T5 CSM DP, CD DP, Bloodthirster, Lord of Change. Fateweaver
T6 Flyrant, SC Bloodthirster?

New flyers are going to have AV10 or 11 more commonly. New FMC are going to have T5 or 6.

I get his point about the flakk missiles. If they didn't cost extra, I would give them thumbs up. But the krak and the frag missiles still have very limited utility, imo.

 Exergy wrote:


MOST?

AV10 Dakkajet, Blitsbomber, Burnabomber, Razorwing
AV11 Voidraven, Storm Talon, Nelaphin, Dark Talon, Night Scythe, Doom Scythe
AV12 Storm Raven, Helturkey, Vendetta, Valkarie

so of the vehicles flyers 28% (4/14) have AV12 on the front and sides. Half of those are undercosted, OP, 4th edition skimmer rules Vendetta and Valkarie. only 1 has AV12 on the back.

Perhaps he meant "MOST commonly encountered", as those are definitely the most popular and ubiquitous choices.

I have seen more vendettas than all the AV 10s combined. Just vendettas.

Martel732 wrote:
I have seen more vendettas than all the AV 10s combined. Just vendettas.

Same here.

I can't hardly stop in and watch a game at my local store without seeing Vendettas.

 kronk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have seen more vendettas than all the AV 10s combined. Just vendettas.

Same here.

and my point is that the problem is likely that Vendettas are overpowered, not that flakk missiles are total rubbish. I will entertain the idea that flakk missiles arent great. I hear that they are expensive on top of an expensive missile launcher.
But to say they suck BECAUSE most flyers are AV12 is wrong.

Basically you are saying they suck because they cannot kill vendettas, which no they cant. Vendettas are OP, they have no real counter other than bringing green tide. Vendettas do not make Flakk missiles suck, they make most everything in the game suck.

 eohall wrote:
[Perhaps he meant "MOST commonly encountered", as those are definitely the most popular and ubiquitous choices.

Its possible. These are the flyers I encounter most often in order of least common to most common.
- Razorwing
- Vendetta
- Storm Talon
- Night Scythe
- Storm Raven
- Helldrake
These are the flyers I have never played against.
- Dakkajet,
- Blitsbomber
- Burnabomber
- Voidraven
- Nelaphin
- Dark Talon
- Valkarie

Out of the flyers I deal with, 50% of them have AV 12. That's still not most, but could easily be given one's meta.

 Exergy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have seen more vendettas than all the AV 10s combined. Just vendettas.

Same here.

and my point is that the problem is likely that Vendettas are overpowered, not that flakk missiles are total rubbish. I will entertain the idea that flakk missiles arent great. I hear that they are expensive on top of an expensive missile launcher.
But to say they suck BECAUSE most flyers are AV12 is wrong.

Basically you are saying they suck because they cannot kill vendettas, which no they cant. Vendettas are OP, they have no real counter other than bringing green tide. Vendettas do not make Flakk missiles suck, they make most everything in the game suck.

Actually I like the flakk missile mechanic. The extra price hurts and the fact that I *hate* the other two ammo choices doesn't help, either. I agree that the Vendetta really screws up analyses, but they exist and people will bring them, so they have to be accounted for.

 Exergy wrote:
and my point is that the problem is likely that Vendettas are overpowered, not that flakk missiles are total rubbish. I will entertain the idea that flakk missiles arent great.

I don't think they are overpowered, I think they are undercosted.

I expect that with the Death from the Skies book comes out this weekend, if rumors are to believed, I expect the cost of the Vendetta to be adjusted to 210 points.

If they make the vendetta 210, what are they doing to do with the stormraven? It's dubious already at 200, imo.

How many people are bringing the stormraven today?

I think its an amazing flyer, but its not getting much action. I guess its because not many people play BA today, eh?

 labmouse42 wrote:
I expect the cost of the Vendetta to be adjusted to 210 points.

I respect your posts, they're normally well informed, or at least intelligently thought-out. However if this is what your opinion of what it should be (rather than what GW will adjust it to) I think you're turning the Vendetta problem on its head. Instead of a highly used, under-costed unit, it'll be a seldom seen, over-costed cash sink.

210 is too much. If it happens, well then I'll have to grab some sabre defence platforms, since my AA will be completely gone.

 Exergy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have seen more vendettas than all the AV 10s combined. Just vendettas.

Same here.

and my point is that the problem is likely that Vendettas are overpowered, not that flakk missiles are total rubbish. I will entertain the idea that flakk missiles arent great. I hear that they are expensive on top of an expensive missile launcher.
But to say they suck BECAUSE most flyers are AV12 is wrong.

Basically you are saying they suck because they cannot kill vendettas, which no they cant. Vendettas are OP, they have no real counter other than bringing green tide. Vendettas do not make Flakk missiles suck, they make most everything in the game suck.

I didn't say that at all, actually. I wasn't part of that discussion. I'm just saying that I see more Vendettas than anything else.

But since we're talking Flakk Missiles: Frankly, I think Flakk missiles cost WAY too much for what they do. I'd rather have 8 shots from Autocannon Havocs that need 6's than 4 shots that need 3s just because of how many points you save.

For the Vendetta, a bare minimum would be 140 to put it on par with the new las Predators.

As for Flakk, they are worthwhile if you lack AA firepower elsewhere, won't use hades drake or allies and typically fight 3+ flyers each game. Point for point, they beat autocannons at killing flyers.

Autocannons or lascannons win out by being better generalist choices when you look beyond killing flyers.

Stormraven costs too much to be considered "amazing". Especially when about 1/3 of the time it's just shot down by Vendettas. Not so amazing.