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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

xiophen42 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Finally, Nosferatu, the amount of antimatter is given in a mass unit, kilograms. That means that no matter HOW dense you store the material, if you store it denser than a neutron star, there will not be anymore atoms in those 1.5 kg than before. The size of the antimatter mass would have changed, but not the amount of atoms of antimatter. In an antimatter-matter annhilation, it is the number of antimatter atoms that count, and we have fixed a photon torpedoes warhead at 1.5 kg of antideutrium, giving us a max yield of 64 megatons.

Chris, a photon torpedo, after Star Trek voodoo enhancement, has a maximum possible yield of 690 gigatons. That's canon. You can justify it however you please, but it happens.

Ahh no the quoe that noferatu posted was in reference to the anti matter pods exploding. then making the assumption that we will see this applied to torps. when you follow the link he posted with it discussing the large sized torp it directly referencing the anti matter pod.

If you actually bothered to read the quote properly, you'd notice that they explode with a force EQUAL to that of an antimatter pod rupturing...

I read the quote I know ti referenced the anti matter pod at that point Im still trying to discover where it it shows an acutal torpedo that is this nature give n the size of war heads we see them commonly working on. and the fact that it sounds like a theoretical eidl since we never see proof of a 690 gt explosion short of the breif blurb here. not in any of the tv shows or movies. such war head would vape any ship in trek and then some given the ships paltry shielding and such.

Remember we know from the same tech manual that the trek enterprise d shield has the following power levels 3311 GW peak (473 GW per generator x 7 generators, p.138) a 690 gt torp would blow through this like it was non existant yet we never see this in any trek episodes a fully shielded ship can survive several torp hits?

Hell we see an unshielded ship surviving multiple torp hits and not die guess those integrity fields are awsome ... except that we see phaser which are rated at Main phasers: 3.6 GW (5.1 MW per emitter, 200 emitters in the main phaser array, 2 full-sized saucer arrays and 3 smaller roughly half-size arrays on the stardrive section, p.123).
Again I see the quote I see that the tech manual states that the torp is Photon torpedoes: 64 megatons max theoretical (based on 1.5 kg antimatter payload, p.129)

Again we never see these mystery torps we know they reffer to the anti matter pod and that it is said to have that level of destructive firepower I would just like to see something other then this quote that supportes the torp powerlevel.
Even then we are still talking if these theoretical torp which again we do ever see even the quantom torps dont show that level of firepower. I heard quotes of 1 gton for quantom due to visual results.

Xiophen - sorry, sounds like you are back pedalling. You repeatedly stated, in your post, that somehow it wasnt a torpedo but their antimatter pods exploding - at least have the decency to admit your error. 690GT is the stated yield of a PT, class 6, with class 10s able to mount an even bigger warhead. There is no known max yield for Quantum torpedos as they use vaccum (zero point) energy.

In addition, you DO need to admit your maths error, as you louldy proclaimed that "your maths sucks" (in reference to me) then proceeded to make 3 hideous errors yourself which totally destroy the validity of your calculation of IoM vessel speeds.

In addition you will notice that Memory ALpha is a *canon* fan site - memory beta is "non canon" i.e. books etc. SO you are wrong on that point. You will notice the reference they made to the TNG tech manual.

I do not have to disprove FTL sensors, you have to prove them. You have yet to do so. Your quotes, as I explained, can be shown to say either c or FTL class sensors - as the wording is not precise enough. I repeat: You have to prove your case, using persuasive evidence (as you are unlikely to have anythign conclusive ala ST and tachyon sensors), which you have yet to do so. Please find a statement, anywhere, which states that the images were received with no transmission delay. IF you cannot do that then BOTH c class and FTL class sensors are equally represented and therefore under Occam only C class sensors are allowed.

Again: you have the burden of proof, and you have yet to meet it.

Chris - he said, she said. What you have there is known as *hearsay*, not evidence.

In addition I also explained why BL stating something does not make CM bound to it, legally at least. And in addition they have stated they *make stuff up as they wish*, meaning that you cannot trust anytying, "canon" or not.

FInally: "purest energy source" - actually the greatest source of energy is zero point / vacuum / quantum flux energy. Extracting energy directly from space/time itself. The vacuum energy in a glass of water is enough to boild every ocean on the planet and melt the crust. Extracting it - now thats the tricky part, but Quantum torpedos in ST use this, so they mmay work out (like fission warheads -> fssion reactors) how to turn a weapon to energy generation.

All we can say is IoM ships are big, cumbersome beasts with huge guns. ST ships are fast, nippy creatures with a penchant for using the deflector dish to solve every problem and a probability of failure of the transporters / warp drive / phasers / etc approaching 1 as narrative imperative approaches 1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Omegus wrote:What are you smoking? Black Library is a division of Games Workshop. It would seem the guy in charge of the division dealing primarily with fiction would be the right one to let determine what is canon and what is not. Rick Priestley certainly no longer gives a damn.

BL /= Citadel Miniatures.

Citadel Miniatures is the parent, anyone working for a legally sperate company, despite being wholly owned, does not from a legal standpoint have the authority to speak for the parent.

Well, they didn't sue him... or stop him, or fire him, or contradict him, in any way. You're arguing on a technicality here, he obviously represents Games Workshop. If that doesn't do it for you though, here's a similar quote from White Dwarf 302;

The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.
The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat-Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not to add that, even if he CAN speak for the parent, he states they make stuff up as they see fit! - which entirely removes ANY BL/Citadel Miniatures source of fluff being considered as reliable - about the only time you can consider something reliable if it is repeated over periods of time.

So one of stories are suspect - never mind the analysis performed which shows that *somehow* fusion reactions are operating at >sun efficiency in order to keep shields going that are a million times more powerful than the most powerful weapons...in other words: everything 40k is suspect.

It may be time to call this quits from a "hard facts" standpoint - 40k has no real world comparator for crtitical elements, such as hull strength, suspect figures suggesting that something is made up, and an admission from an unsupported person that they make stuff up as they see fit.

It's almost as though this thread was just to have a bit of fun with the two settings! If there's no way to use math and engineering to decide whether the setting with the Space Elves or the setting with the evil Space Wizards is technically, scientifically and objectively superior then the entire discussion is obviously bunk!

PS - if you're wondering which is the setting with the Space Elves and which is the setting with the Space Wizards, both settings have both Space Elves and Space Wizards.

Rube, you make pertinent points, I'm going to snip out the important ones

Rube wrote:
Well, they didn't sue him... or stop him, or fire him, or contradict him, in any way. You're arguing on a technicality here, he obviously represents Games Workshop. If that doesn't do it for you though, here's a similar quote from White Dwarf 302

GW never do as they can't really sue themselves and have never submitted to what is or is not canon, so what he says as an individual doesn't have to be defended/rebuffed

The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.
The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat-Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.

This is the crux of the matter GW have given us tools in which to make up a story, ie the rules, codecii and armybooks. The quote itself calls out as canon whatever the player wants it to be, nothing else. But there are a few people out there who are demanding? that optional material via BL must be canon. Despite the statement above which tells us otherwise. My truth is better than your truth, so to speak, when GW have said that everyones truth is correct, well that can't be factually accurate so it would be better to say everyones truth is suspect.

It's almost as though this thread was just to have a bit of fun with the two settings! If there's no way to use math and engineering to decide whether the setting with the Space Elves or the setting with the evil Space Wizards is technically, scientifically and objectively superior then the entire discussion is obviously bunk!

Yes! One side has been given the onus of having to provide scientifc proof of abilities on one side, while the other only has to point to a piece of fiction regardless of how far fetched the statement is. There were quite a few statements about how powerful IoM weaponry is, but when we look at how powerful via the sums proffered as evidence, they were so powerful they could not infact be seriously entertained. If every IoM ship had such planet busting weaponry then any battle taking place within a solar system, which lets face it has to be the case, because space is big and you have to have a meeting point, would trash the entire system. Nova Cannon = mini supernova, I really don't want to think about the side effects on a planet.

Andrew

Rube - the company is Citadel MIniatures that is the important one (GW is a trading name), and no this is not arguiing a technicality - this is arguing whether someone has the *authority*, delegated or not, to decide what is Canon and what is not.

And as was pointed out by Andrew - canon is stated as being whatever players decide. Meaning there is no way to have a single, trusted and consistent basis for comparison.

The thread WAS to have a bit of fun, which then devolved into "Iom has HUUUUUGE weapons!!! Multi teraton yields!!! Rawrr!" to which, when you actually tried to put some numbers to, you find that theyre actually outputting numbers which require a million G2 stars in each and every ship....so arguing "who would win?" becomes an impossibility - the numbers are clearly made up for dramatic effect.

AndrewC wrote:GW never do as they can't really sue themselves and have never submitted to what is or is not canon, so what he says as an individual doesn't have to be defended/rebuffed

Well, he didn't say it as an individual;

"What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."

'We' generally implies you're talking on behalf of a number of people, and he explictly mentions GW.

AndrewC wrote:This is the crux of the matter GW have given us tools in which to make up a story, ie the rules, codecii and armybooks. The quote itself calls out as canon whatever the player wants it to be, nothing else. But there are a few people out there who are demanding? that optional material via BL must be canon. Despite the statement above which tells us otherwise. My truth is better than your truth, so to speak, when GW have said that everyones truth is correct, well that can't be factually accurate so it would be better to say everyones truth is suspect.

I don't think either quote is saying that the player can choose what is canon. Everything is canon.

For example, a setting might contain a myth that purports several things to be true. That myth is canon. What the myth purports to be true is canon. The myth might still be factually wrong, even if it is canon.

Now imagine everything in 40k is a myth. It's all canon, but that doesn't make it factually true. You could have several myths that contradict one another. They're still all canon. The games we play are also myths, which is why we get to pick which of the canonical myths we're basing our myth off of!

/headache

AndrewC wrote:Yes! One side has been given the onus of having to provide scientifc proof of abilities on one side, while the other only has to point to a piece of fiction regardless of how far fetched the statement is. There were quite a few statements about how powerful IoM weaponry is, but when we look at how powerful via the sums proffered as evidence, they were so powerful they could not infact be seriously entertained. If every IoM ship had such planet busting weaponry then any battle taking place within a solar system, which lets face it has to be the case, because space is big and you have to have a meeting point, would trash the entire system. Nova Cannon = mini supernova, I really don't want to think about the side effects on a planet.

Both settings have outright magic! That's worse than any scientifically-silly super-cannon! I may be misremembering here, but doesn't Luke destroy a Star Destroyer with the Force at one point? During one of the later EU books?

I mean, the Imperium has access to the warp, which is literally magic. How do their guns work? They draw power from the realm of magic. There are possibly daemons involved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rube - the company is Citadel MIniatures that is the important one (GW is a trading name), and no this is not arguiing a technicality - this is arguing whether someone has the *authority*, delegated or not, to decide what is Canon and what is not.

And Citadel Miniatures is just a brand of Games Workshop. So is Black Library. They're just the same guys working together in an office in Nottingham.

For all we know Gascoigne was delegated to give this information out. Given that he potentially risked his job by giving this information out if he wasn't delegated to do it, he works for a division of Games Workshop, gave the information out on a Games Workshop authorised venue (the BL forums), explictly mentions GW in the statement, and his statement hasn't since been contradicted or retracted, I'd argue that he probably was given or always had the authority to say this!

I'm not sure what you were envisioning. Perhaps a lawyer or director giving a formal statement, accompanied by legal documents to verify his authorisation? ;P We're talking about clarifying what counts as canon to the few nerds like us who care about such things!

Rube wrote:Now imagine everything in 40k is a myth. It's all canon, but that doesn't make it factually true. You could have several myths that contradict one another. They're still all canon. The games we play are also myths, which is why we get to pick which of the canonical myths we're basing our myth off of!

That's all well and good, but if the information is contradictory, it should be inadmissable as supporting evidence in a debate, as it can not be substantiated as true. Instead, the IoM have made this material central to their case.

Rube.

No, GW is the trade name for CM. Black library is not a division but wholly owned company. thus, legally, cannot make statements about the parent without delegated authority to do so, which we have no evidence of. Which was my point - your assumption is unsafe in this context.

It does affirm that NOTHING published by black library can be considered "safe" in this context, so no argument about the IoM being able to win based on black library can be considered safe.

No, the warp is not magic, just sufficiently different to appear so. sure a famous quote has just been bastardised there....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Xiophen - sorry, sounds like you are back pedalling. You repeatedly stated, in your post, that somehow it wasnt a torpedo but their antimatter pods exploding - at least have the decency to admit your error. 690GT is the stated yield of a PT, class 6, with class 10s able to mount an even bigger warhead. There is no known max yield for Quantum torpedos as they use vaccum (zero point) energy.

No its not it references the 1.5kg of antimatter then tells us about the anti matter pods being such and such then we have an assumption that it be 690 gton. but when compared to the rest of the text the shield strength the phaser strenght. Atorp of that magnitude would blow through the ent -d shields and ship as if the didnt exist. REmember visual evidence has shown that it takes multiple torps to destroy an unsheilded Galaxy class ship. the same book you and memoory alpha are trying to use to justify higher yeidls states that the ent D shield are only 3311 gw. the 64 megaton torp should blast through theses shields on a few torp hits a 690 torp would impact shields explode an still release a suffcient amout of energy to vape A galaxy class and still have several gtons worth of energy to expend based on the mass of the ship.

Given we never see this occur in any episode or movie and even the more powerful quantom torps never shows this performance leades to one conclusions. this is a Theoretical yield f the entire space of the torp war head was used for the war head. or this is akernal thrown out just for the heck of it. again i would except the theoretical explination of max torp yield pending on evidence that we ever see one of this power in use.

In addition, you DO need to admit your maths error, as you louldy proclaimed that "your maths sucks" (in reference to me) then proceeded to make 3 hideous errors yourself which totally destroy the validity of your calculation of IoM vessel speeds.

Yes My math only showed what the average speed that would be needed to cover 9 AU's in 93 minutes. In comparisons to your of only .5 c. My point was just a confirmation of near light speed shopwing the fact that they estimate travel time of 93 minutes shows that the .75 c speed is acheavable using the given quote. If you want we can work out the acceleration based on the presented information and your correct it roughly converts out to ~9/10 the speed of light. But I would assume thats their flank or after burner speed not thier combat speed.

In addition you will notice that Memory ALpha is a *canon* fan site - memory beta is "non canon" i.e. books etc. SO you are wrong on that point. You will notice the reference they made to the TNG tech manual.

its canon how? per paramount its not its a fan site how are you defining it as canon? So yeah Im right paramount being the legal owner of Star trek since roddenberry sold them those right and his estate only collects a royalty fee. Mean that technicall their stating that only the visual media is canon. Mean that If I was a prick *which Im not* I can refuse to accept it and the tech manual.
But again Im not going to because im not like some debators Im more then willingy to accept it as long as it can support the claim of 690 gton idea. Again as i meantioned above if we assume that value then the other values that would also be cannon causes a logic error which can not be resolved. I'm more then willing to conceed that the 690 could be the theoretical upper limit to photom torps. But due to the stated value of 64 megaton that that is the current weapon yeidls for the torps that is supported by all other cannon and in the same canon source.
Im more then willing to work with you on that value. I personal think given all other evidence its bs.

I'm willing to conceed the point if you can in a logical manner with support of canon can show how this is the torp yields and how it fits in with the other Shield values phaser values and general ship construsction values given in the same book. As well as the books own set max yield of 64 megatons

I do not have to disprove FTL sensors, you have to prove them. You have yet to do so. Your quotes, as I explained, can be shown to say either c or FTL class sensors - as the wording is not precise enough. I repeat: You have to prove your case, using persuasive evidence (as you are unlikely to have anythign conclusive ala ST and tachyon sensors), which you have yet to do so. Please find a statement, anywhere, which states that the images were received with no transmission delay. IF you cannot do that then BOTH c class and FTL class sensors are equally represented and therefore under Occam only C class sensors are allowed

Again: you have the burden of proof, and you have yet to meet it..

Okay you know this is gettin repetative you know lets walk through this again
start of action:

The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"

They detect the warp concordance and send ships to the thret location. now right now you can make 2 assumptions.
Your assumption:
the chaos fleet start ripping a hole into reality. 75 minutes later the IOm fleet detect it and send ships to investigate.
Fleet leaves and arrive on seen some 168 minutes later.

MY assumption: that Iom odes have FTL sensors. that they detect the disturbance immediatly and respond to the issue immediatly.
the send ships forward and are launching fighters to investigate 42 minutes after launch.

The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.

Heres the monkey wrench the Iom Fleet was moving before the Chaos ships emerge from the warp. followed later by the emergence of the chaos fleet on the following quotes. As a secondary note it is noting that the ships are only moving at 1/10 power

The Saint Omnibus page 893
For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space.
They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.

Monkey wrench 2 in your assumptions this quote from the book states that in less then an hours time we see the chaos ships arriving from the warp. Whats more Inp[ortant is this description is onsight giving you a description of the event and to help it out we also see that the description tells us that the chaos ship are moving at what they consider is attack speed In universe

The Saint Omnibus page 894
Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor

This is the nail In the coffin of your assumption here. This quote is the description of the sensor feed that the Iom ships were receiving. Again this is less then an hour after the intial receit of the message. we have already seen evidence that the Iom alreayd launched ships to engage the chaos fleet. We know from the book description this was done before the Chaos ships emerged from the Warp. We know in the following pages that the Iom fleet enageges the Chaos ships within a short time after they emerge from the Warp. near the concordance point and then fight a moving battle from the concordance to Heredor.

Just as a side note You could also argue communication ability as well as we know that the IOm fleet does send a distress call to the rest of the crusade. And by the end of the book ie same day time span we see the entire crusader fleet some 10,000 ships jump into the Heredor system and join the battle.
Lets face it the discovery and rescue Of An Imperial Saint stop the Motion of an Entire Crusade. * Not to meantion seeing her destroy a baneblade signle handedly is sweet.*


Now beyond that Ive yet to see evidence of TRek combat taking place at warp. WE can post a number of links in 3 sereis of inportance here that show STL combat through out the series. I think we need some evidence supporting trek FTL combat speed please.

Chris - he said, she said. What you have there is known as *hearsay*, not evidence.

In addition I also explained why BL stating something does not make CM bound to it, legally at least. And in addition they have stated they *make stuff up as they wish*, meaning that you cannot trust anytying, "canon" or not.

Lets help with this BL and citadel minatures are a subsidory Games workshop. Bl is the offical book arm of GW for all intents and purposes they are becoming more and more the controling arm of the fluff for Gw and thier games. A number of the Authors for BL are GW game designers. So its safe tio say marc gastongia *spell* *being an author and editor for BL* word saying that any and all fluff from codex, bl book, WD, etc made unde the gw logo is canon, and his explination is official for 40k.

Well that sucked the oxygen out of this thread...

Good, maybe now the fire can die down some.

Firstly: PLEASE use Capital Letters, please. It helps make your posts slightly more legible.

xiophen42 wrote:
No its not it references the 1.5kg of antimatter then tells us about the anti matter pods being such and such then we have an assumption that it be 690 gton.

NO.

It states that it has 1.5Kg of AM, and THEN states that it HOWEVER explodes with the FORCE OF AN AM POD EXPLODING.

So, in other words the 64MT (which, btw, is NOT canon, it is simply a real world calculation - an error you keep on making.) is a real world thing - however that is not the canon figure. The CANON is that the explosion is akin to an AM pod explosion. This is then calculated to 690GTon.

So you are wrong, yet again.

xiophen42 wrote: but when compared to the rest of the text the shield strength the phaser strenght. Atorp of that magnitude would blow through the ent -d shields and ship as if the didnt exist. REmember visual evidence has shown that it takes multiple torps to destroy an unsheilded Galaxy class ship. the same book you and memoory alpha are trying to use to justify higher yeidls states that the ent D shield are only 3311 gw. the 64 megaton torp should blast through theses shields on a few torp hits a 690 torp would impact shields explode an still release a suffcient amout of energy to vape A galaxy class and still have several gtons worth of energy to expend based on the mass of the ship.

Please explain the greater than 1million sun output of a 12km^3 ship using JUST fusion reactions.

Please explain how the shields are >1million times more powerful than the biggest weapons.

You have yet to do so.

xiophen42 wrote:Given we never see this occur in any episode or movie and even the more powerful quantom torps never shows this performance leades to one conclusions. this is a Theoretical yield f the entire space of the torp war head was used for the war head. or this is akernal thrown out just for the heck of it. again i would except the theoretical explination of max torp yield pending on evidence that we ever see one of this power in use.

No, that is not the conclusion, as you are not told that: you are told it is the same as an AM pod exploding, you can derive the density of liquid deuterium (known), the size of an AM pod (Known) and you can then derive the size of the explosion.

So the *canon* is the description that it explodes with the force of an AM pod; this then works out as 690GTon. I would suggest reading things slightly more closely, as you keep misreading these things...

xiophen42 wrote:Yes My math only showed what the average speed that would be needed to cover 9 AU's in 93 minutes.

Except, as I pointed out, the IoM ship would not have to cover 9AUs. You forgot that the Chaos ships would be moving towards the planet as well...which I pointed out.

xiophen42 wrote: In comparisons to your of only .5 c. My point was just a confirmation of near light speed shopwing the fact that they estimate travel time of 93 minutes shows that the .75 c speed is acheavable using the given quote.

See above. Your agregious error (you forgot, twice now, that there are two fleets) means your result is meaningless.

Come back with better figures, once you work out where the midpoint would be (not the middle as they start out with unequal speeds)

xiophen42 wrote:
If you want we can work out the acceleration based on the presented information and your correct it roughly converts out to ~9/10 the speed of light. But I would assume thats their flank or after burner speed not thier combat speed.

That is correct assuming that the IoM fleet moves the full 9AU. But as I have proven it does not....so I'd suggest recalculating, once you have corrected the 3 errors you made.

xiophen42 wrote:its canon how? per paramount its not its a fan site how are you defining it as canon?

Because of the existence of memory beta, mainly.

xiophen42 wrote: So yeah Im right paramount being the legal owner of Star trek since roddenberry sold them those right and his estate only collects a royalty fee. Mean that technicall their stating that only the visual media is canon. Mean that If I was a prick *which Im not* I can refuse to accept it and the tech manual.

ANd yet we CAN reject the entirety of 40k figures as unsubstantiated, made up rubbish.

Because the guy from BL said it was.

xiophen42 wrote:But again Im not going to because im not like some debators Im more then willingy to accept it as long as it can support the claim of 690 gton idea. Again as i meantioned above if we assume that value then the other values that would also be cannon causes a logic error which can not be resolved. I'm more then willing to conceed that the 690 could be the theoretical upper limit to photom torps. But due to the stated value of 64 megaton that that is the current weapon yeidls for the torps that is supported by all other cannon and in the same canon source.
Im more then willing to work with you on that value. I personal think given all other evidence its bs.

Except, as pointed out, it is NOT CANON. Got that? The 64MT is NOT CANON. It is a *calculated figure* based on the presence of 1.5KG AM, but it is NOT THE YIELD (in terms of "explodes like an AM pod" that is given.

64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon

Understand now?

xiophen42 wrote: I'm willing to conceed the point if you can in a logical manner with support of canon can show how this is the torp yields and how it fits in with the other Shield values phaser values and general ship construsction values given in the same book. As well as the books own set max yield of 64 megatons

Unfortunately you have to accept the 690GT as the canon answer, sorry.

You have to still explain the MASSIVE probvlems with the 40k ships though.

xiophen42 wrote:Okay you know this is gettin repetative you know lets walk through this again
start of action:

The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"

They detect the warp concordance and send ships to the thret location. now right now you can make 2 assumptions.
Your assumption:
the chaos fleet start ripping a hole into reality. 75 minutes later the IOm fleet detect it and send ships to investigate.
Fleet leaves and arrive on seen some 168 minutes later.

You're right, this is tiresome, as you continually ignore / misrepresent my argument.

If you woudl, for a change, go back and reread the posts you would see that I agreed that an A'path DOES sense FTL - we KNOW they do. I have NEVER debated this.

So please correct your incorrect statement. Or, you can claim you are not incorrect, despite this being blindfingly obvious...

xiophen42 wrote:

The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.

Heres the monkey wrench the Iom Fleet was moving before the Chaos ships emerge from the warp. followed later by the emergence of the chaos fleet on the following quotes. As a secondary note it is noting that the ships are only moving at 1/10 power

1) No, you have no proof they were moving before they emerge - nothing. Again, stop making things up that the text does not support, and you may have an argument.

xiophen42 wrote:

The Saint Omnibus page 893
For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space.
They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.

Monkey wrench 2 in your assumptions this quote from the book states that in less then an hours time we see the chaos ships arriving from the warp. Whats more Inp[ortant is this description is onsight giving you a description of the event and to help it out we also see that the description tells us that the chaos ship are moving at what they consider is attack speed In universe

Again, you are reading things into the text that are not there.

1) Nothing states this is from an observer on the original planet.
2) In fact nothing states the position of the observer at all, or that this observer even exists "for real".

In other words - your "proof" simply shows a cinematic warp tear openming up. Nothing more.

In simple terms: your continual attempts to make things up doesnt help your argument.

xiophen42 wrote:

The Saint Omnibus page 894
Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor

This is the nail In the coffin of your assumption here. This quote is the description of the sensor feed that the Iom ships were receiving. Again this is less then an hour after the intial receit of the message. we have already seen evidence that the Iom alreayd launched ships to engage the chaos fleet. We know from the book description this was done before the Chaos ships emerged from the Warp. We know in the following pages that the Iom fleet enageges the Chaos ships within a short time after they emerge from the Warp. near the concordance point and then fight a moving battle from the concordance to Heredor.

Yes, they launched once they detected a warp incursion iwth a chaos signature.

Your nails are imaginary, as is your proof.

Note that, in your quote above, nothing STATES they receivc this image with no delay? Please point out wher it does so.

Stop. Making. Stuff. Up.

xiophen42 wrote:Just as a side note You could also argue communication ability as well as we know that the IOm fleet does send a distress call to the rest of the crusade. And by the end of the book ie same day time span we see the entire crusader fleet some 10,000 ships jump into the Heredor system and join the battle.
Lets face it the discovery and rescue Of An Imperial Saint stop the Motion of an Entire Crusade. * Not to meantion seeing her destroy a baneblade signle handedly is sweet.*

Sigh. Reading comphrension failure for the loss.

Again, I have NEVER stated that they do not have "FTL" comms - they do; via the warp. However, ify ou had actually read my posts a little more carefully you would have seen that I contended they have never shown any *non-warp* FTL-comms capability. In fact there are many mentions of "years" for a non-Apath distress signal to reach other worlds, conslusively proving if they DO have FTL non-AP comms they dont actually use them for distress signals. Which is slightly dumb...and if they DO have FTL comms why use the less reliable A'paths?

You like to bang on about logic, yet have shown a credible lack of it in your treatment of 40k...

xiophen42 wrote:Now beyond that Ive yet to see evidence of TRek combat taking place at warp. WE can post a number of links in 3 sereis of inportance here that show STL combat through out the series. I think we need some evidence supporting trek FTL combat speed please.

Sigh. Sorry, after 18 pages of this I am not doing your work for you.

There have been at least 3 links to FTL combat. Go find them. If you keep asking for items that people in the thread have already given, you will be reported as a troll. Your inabilty to use a search is really, REALLY not "our" problem.

xiophen42 wrote:Lets help with this BL and citadel minatures are a subsidory Games workshop.

Again. Wrong.

Citadel miniatures owns Games Workshop. end of.

xiophen42 wrote: Bl is the offical book arm of GW for all intents and purposes they are becoming more and more the controling arm of the fluff for Gw and thier games. A number of the Authors for BL are GW game designers. So its safe tio say marc gastongia *spell* *being an author and editor for BL* word saying that any and all fluff from codex, bl book, WD, etc made unde the gw logo is canon, and his explination is official for 40k.

No, it isnt actually. And I have explained why. Continue to ignore if you like, doesnt make you right.

And also you conveniently ignore that, if you DO accept what he states as gospel then nothing you have cited so far can be trusted *at all* as they freely admit they make things up.

So all you quotes prove nothing. absolutely nothing. they make stuff up meaning you cannot trust anything you have quoted as being anything like the truth. It is all a narrative convenience

xiophen42 wrote:Yep you bet we see a quantom torp hit a borg cube and take out the entire solar system. from what we see on the quantom torp it seems to have a max yeild of 1 gton.

Note how I said there was no theoretical limit? as opposed to "has been used in series"?

xiophen42 wrote:No all we can say is Iom ships are big massive ships that have superior weapons, armor, superior STL and FTl..

Nope, you can say nothing of the sort, as they make stuff up and nothing is the "truth" in any BL publication, ever - meaning you have not got a leg to stand on, when it comes to making a comparision.

xiophen42 wrote:Again even if we give trek the 690 torp strneght it just means they have the possibility of hurting 40k vessels. The Iom still out everythings the feddies in every single facet of /
combat in this debate.

Wrong again, biut at least you're being consistent.

Unless you can find a way to compare 40k and ST, whcih does not rely on BL fluff which is known to be full of "lies" , you are done as far as an argument goes.

Everyone else has realised a comparison is not possible (as in case youve forgotten, they make stuff up for 40k) excpet you...

I'm going to try to draw a metaphorical analogy, to paint (in general terms) what I see as the relationship between Star Trek ships and 40k ships.

Consider space to be a highway.

An Imperial ship is an 18-wheeler with an enclosed bed, solid rubber tires, and big, heavy fenders. It's full of guys with bazookas and hand grenades.

A Star Trek ship is a Cadillac. It's got three guys with assault rifles in it.

The Cadillac has a lot of advantages. . . but if it comes to a fight, the 18-wheeler will win.

xiophen42 wrote:Alot of things are not really that contradictory, FTL speeds, Sensors despite nos's assumptions show ftl capability, communication does show ftl capabilities, ship sizes IOm sizes etc. the things where you get the big ranes is the armor, value void/power etc field values, Weapon values etc. thats you can get a good range on most sites have the weapons ranging from 610 gt stated value to Pton range from descriptions from bl novles and wepaon descriptions. the space cabilities acutally are easier to quantify then some of the ground or personal level weapons. seveal sites have done some good reviews of related fluff and achieved some decent ideas of the cal ranges. Stardestroyer.net, spacebattles, factpiles all have some good solid calculations going.

That's great. Please explain to me how IoM capital ships can be destroyed with IoM torpedoes when it can survive a hit from Pton range weapon, where 1 PT is the power output of 0.05 suns over 1s. These same calculations that you are hanging your hat on show that torpedoes are 10E+15x (that's a million billions times for you laypersons out there) weaker than a novacannon (0.1 suns). Using any kind of common sense, one would have to conclude that one of the following scenarios exists:

1. The yield spread between torpedoes and nova canons is grossly inflated
2. The void shields absorb most of the novacannon hit and the armor resistance of the ship is grossly inflated

The IoM defense seems to hinge on the fact that they are assumed to be SO far beyond the raw power yields of the UFP that this doesn't need to be defined, but we're talking a difference in magnitude of 10E+15x. If the second scenario is correct, the UFP may only be underpowered by as little as 10x if superweapon class devices are held to the same computational rigeur that the IoM supporters demand.

I'd also like to submit that while the IoM ships are able to traverse great distances by bypassing normal space, I do not think they travel FTL in the conventional sense. Finally your sensors example is one that IMO demonstrates reciept of instataneous telemetry, but only in a very narrow sense as it involves an astropath detecting a warp exit, which the astropath is specifically in-tune to detect. It doesn't actually provide any more information than that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rube.

No, GW is the trade name for CM. Black library is not a division but wholly owned company. thus, legally, cannot make statements about the parent without delegated authority to do so, which we have no evidence of. Which was my point - your assumption is unsafe in this context.

It does affirm that NOTHING published by black library can be considered "safe" in this context, so no argument about the IoM being able to win based on black library can be considered safe.

No, the warp is not magic, just sufficiently different to appear so. sure a famous quote has just been bastardised there....

Lets settle this first here:
Gw legal message:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=3900002

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This site and all subject matter, artwork, and imagery it contains are the exclusive property of Games Workshop Ltd. © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2010.

lotsa info here some more inportant stuff:

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Bolded and itiliazied info by me. So basically Games workshop LTD owner big company => Citadel, and black library owned by GW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as pointed out, it is NOT CANON. Got that? The 64MT is NOT CANON. It is a *calculated figure* based on the presence of 1.5KG AM, but it is NOT THE YIELD (in terms of "explodes like an AM pod" that is given.

64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon
64MT is not canon

Understand now?

Unfortunately you have to accept the 690GT as the canon answer, sorry.

Dude, settle down on the nerd rage. You've been treating this whole thread as a flame war from the very beginning.

His argument seems pretty sound to me. If the values given are true, then a single torpedo would annihilate a Galaxy-class starship several times over. This never, ever happens in any canon material (or even non-canon, as far as I know). If you can discard 40k fluff for small contradictions (by the way, do you have any examples?), then you should be willing to acknowledge this gigantic logic disconnect. That is, unless your argument boils down to "a wizard did it", in which case "our wizards have super wizard armor on, so nyah!"

xiophen42 wrote:
The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.

Heres the monkey wrench the Iom Fleet was moving before the Chaos ships emerge from the warp. followed later by the emergence of the chaos fleet on the following quotes. As a secondary note it is noting that the ships are only moving at 1/10 power

1) No, you have no proof they were moving before they emerge - nothing. Again, stop making things up that the text does not support, and you may have an argument.

Um, what proof do you have that they weren't? How would you interpret the following narrative flow:

"Hey gang, what's that in the distance? Zoinks, pirate ghosts!"
Shaggy drops the doob, cranks up the the Mystery Van, and begins accelerating down the road.
"Boo!" exclaims the spooky pirate ghost as it appears out of nowhere in front of the van.

Did the spooky pirate ghost appear before or after Shaggy dropped the doob?

Again. Wrong.

Citadel miniatures owns Games Workshop. end of.

Citadel miniatures no longer exists as a company, but is a trademarked brand of Games Workshop. You can't distinguish Citadel Miniatures (initially funded by GW, but later bought out the original founders) and Games Workshop (which became the name of the newly merged corporate entity.. the stock exchange lists GW, not Citadel). From the Black Library site's legal info, it reads: "Black Library is a division of Games Workshop." Their address is the same as Games Workshop. They publish artbooks, novels, and other books related to Games Workshop's IP. So we have a bunch of guys working in the same offices, and one guy is in charge of the division that churns out the stories and art, and he issues a statement on what they consider canon or not. Seems like until this is overruled or corrected by someone higher up the food chain, his opinion on what is considered canon should count just a tiny bit more than yours.

Likewise, the majority of your argument seems to stem from Memory Beta, which is a non-canon source both according to Paramount (the IP holders) and the wiki itself. Look at the title: "Memory Beta, non-canon Star Trek Wiki".

If we accept those 690 Gt missiles as fact, than all those 40k strengths someone pulled up earlier are canon.

Terminus, xiophen, you are both making the same assumption here. And I could be guilty of the same thing.

If BL went bust, would GW go down with it and responsible for their debts? No. BL is a division of GW, but is not GW. They publish art, fiction and other books based on GW IP, but the source of that is from independent authors submitting various media. GW as far as I am aware, has never commissioned a book. Caveat, as far as I am aware

Canon. The guy in charge of that division is the employee of the division, not the parent company. GW IP is the property of GW not BL so the division is never able to speak on behalf of the parent company, because he does not own the IP. To expand, does GW have the right to change Lord of the Rings or make a call on what happens in/to middle earth? No, same case here. The source IP belongs to the Tolkien Estate and or New Line etc. GW can proffer their vision of it, but it is not middle earth.

BL have offered us their vision of 40K, but as GW has not endorsed it, BL vision is not 40K canon. We're splitting hairs here I know but please bear with me. The purest vision of the 40K universe can only be found in 40K rules, codecii, armybooks (hereafter known as 40Krca) BL have stated, and GW as well, that what fiction is published can be factually false, true, misleading or all three. We cannot know which is which. For example, lets say a somali pirate fires an gun at a ship 600m long, a fisherman sees this and also witnesses the ship disappear in a huge fireball of flame, he later discovers bits of burned ship hull 100s of miles away. BL fiction is written in this manner, Marc Gascoigne refers to it in his statement. Now the proponents of 40K IoM weaponry canon would feverishly work out how much energy would be required to completely destroy aforementioned ship and throw a large chunk of metal 200 miles away, then loudly proclaim IoM weapons badass. When in fact the fisherman saw an RPG fired at an oil tanker loaded with refined petrochemicals, and the wreckage he saw had nothing to do with the explosion. The fiction is all first hand accounts (according to the above sources BL&GW), written as a factual story. We cannot trust the source material without 'scientific' proof, which is what I and others have been requesting.

In order to settle a debate like this there has to be an agreement on both sides to either;

a. Any material from source or licenced/officially affiliated sources be accepted as true and factual, or

b. Any and all assertions must be backed up by explanations of their conclusions by hard fact(ie known to us by scientific knowledge of today, including extrapolations eg an explosion has a rating of x units of energy assuming we could contain such energy).

Until both sides can agree on that simple choice then we get nowhere.

To the OP, as has been provided by Rube, the story of 40K is what you want it to be. Several pages ago I said that no-one would win. Going by recent developments, campaigns and general critism of GW that is how their story is going to.

Same crap, different day.

Andrew

Gents (and ladies if there are any participating in this discussion, some of the user names could be either) I think I will bow out of this one.

Good night.
Trust the Emperor
Live long and prosper

Terminus - "most" of my arguments are from memory beta?

Uh, no. Yields, ranges and sensors are all from memory alpha. FTL combat was from tghe TV series. WOuld you like to quantify "most"? Would be more helpful than your post as it stands....

Ina ddition: the previous page it describes the A'path detecnig the chaos fleet. The IoM fleet then moves out "to the advised modulus" - so, after they detect and pinpoint where the fleet is coming from, they send the fleet there.

ALL of that is done using the Apaths, not real space sensors. NOTHING states that *real space* sensors work FTL - which is the point.

You have FTL sensors in the form of Apath, but they are ONLY ever shown as detecting fleet emergence from the Warp.

Nowehere do they show FTL real space sensors - nowhere. Nothing in the quoted entries prove FTL sensors, as I have explaned. You can ignore it if you want, but until you can come up with something persuasive, which you have yet to do, IoM has , like their comms, c-class real space sensors.

Klawz - the 40K yields cannot be accepted because you have been told that BL lies for narrative effect. They make things up.

Which makes 40k stories suspect.

Citation needed for this "lies" thing.

In any case, both universes have layers of BS heaped on them for "narrative effect". I mean hell, a few pages ago you made a claim along the lines of "the Star Trek ships suck on screen compared to their stats for extra drama!"

So really, this whole argument does boil down to "my wizard can beat up your wizard", which makes the high tempers flying around that much more amusing.

Oh whoops, better drop that line of thought; last time I made a veiled suggestion that people take their fictional universe too seriously I got a week suspension.

Nosferatu: You are not going to win this arguement regarding torpedoes. It is clearly indicated on Memory Alpha that the technical manuals are not canon but are allowed as reference materials by the site maintainers. 64MT seems to be a perfectly reasonable yield characteristic for a photon torpedo.

terminus/klawz: Please stop evading the issue. You guys are up in arms with a 1000x disparity in demonstrated power vs. reputed power of photon torpedoes. However, you claim contradictions from GW canon such as: Ships survive nova/lance hits but can be taken down by torpedoes (10E+15x discrepancy) is a minor issue? The ship can't be both super durable AND succeptable to the weaker weapons at the same time.

Terminus - go back a few pages. They admit that the stories are myths, fiction within the universe, made up for effect whenever they want - so you cannot seperate "true" from "lie" within the universe; my contention is the person saying that doesnt have the intrinsic authority to say it (they dont) for all of CM, but it DOES mean BL fluff cannot be relied upon.

I was saying that the reason you see point blank fights is, frankly, visual effect - as no other reason is given. You know they have the capability, just it isnt always expressed. Apparently bringing in the differences between novel and visual narrative forms is too much of a leap of credibility.

Keezus - the 64MT yield is not, however, the yield as explained on screen ("like an AM pod rupturing"), just a calculation based on the physical amount of AM in the warhead. You "know" this yield cannot be 64MT as the yield can be altered - the level 1 to 10. Meaning that they have to have someway of altering how "explosive" it is, which a straight e=mc2 calculation would not do.

Okay, on the whole 690gt argument:

ST:TNG Tech Manual pg 129- "While the maximum payload of antimatter in a standard photon torpedo is only about 1.5k, the released energy per time unit is actually greater than that calculated for a Galaxy class antimatter pod rupture."

All this is saying is that the rate of detonation is much higher than an antimatter pod due to all the measures they have taken to construct the fastest, most efficient detonation they can out of the given amount of antimatter, not that the actual yield of detonation is larger. It's not that the explosion is any bigger, it just happens faster as it is designed to explode as a weapon where the anti-matter pods are not.

Now if you want to know the actual yield of a torpedo, and can translate the the numbers, it states two figures under the auto destruct section for the ship(pg 141):

"...providing an energy release on the order of 10^15 megajoules, roughly the equivilant of 1000 photon torpedos."
"The release yield of the secondary system is calculated to be 10^9 megajoules, roughly equivilant to 500 photon torpedos."

All this is a moot argument though as all the Federation has to do is transport an away team onto an Imperium ship, and all the personel on board would fall to the decks laughing uncontrollably at the Federation uniforms. The away team can then dispatch the crew at thier leisure.

@Maelstrom: The Technical Manuals are stated as being non canon, so the best that can be done is through a straight conversion, though more reasonable minds might conclude that the torpedoes output could be enriched to increase yield by at least a factor of 10.

I think that transporting tribbles into the IoM ship's food stores would have a more satisfying effect.

Understood, but where are they getting the yield figures for the torps then?

And tribbles could work, until the flamers came out.

But they're soooo cute...

And they'd probably just eat the tribbles anyway, I doubt guardsmen are too pick when it comes to food rations...or not allowed to be too picky at least

As for transporting onto IoM ships - they would get heavily confused as there were no nice, brightly lit corridors with helpful "this way to critical ships systems" terminals on every wall

keezus wrote:Nosferatu: You are not going to win this arguement regarding torpedoes. It is clearly indicated on Memory Alpha that the technical manuals are not canon but are allowed as reference materials by the site maintainers. 64MT seems to be a perfectly reasonable yield characteristic for a photon torpedo.

terminus/klawz: Please stop evading the issue. You guys are up in arms with a 1000x disparity in demonstrated power vs. reputed power of photon torpedoes. However, you claim contradictions from GW canon such as: Ships survive nova/lance hits but can be taken down by torpedoes (10E+15x discrepancy) is a minor issue? The ship can't be both super durable AND succeptable to the weaker weapons at the same time.

Note that I did not dispute that there are factual errors/lies/whatever you want to call them, I just asked for a few examples. I haven't followed every post of this colossal thread, so I'm not familiar with this contradiction. What are the yields of the individual weapons? I know the Nova lances' description is outrageous with something like ptons of energy. That said, since torpedoes ignore void shields, that may explain the discrepancy. If we're talking direct on the hull Nova hits, then that's totally silly. So as I said in my previous post, both settings are full of their own brand of bs, whether stemming from the fans or the source material.

So again, this battle would be decided by resources and numbers. Lets throw out all these technobabble arguments, and say that their shields and weapons are identical in strength and the Federation can zip around at warp owning face. Let's ignore the fact that Imperial ships are several times larger, and that it often takes Federation ships multiple torpedoes to take out much smaller ships. The average Galaxy-class ship carries 250 torpedoes, right? So let's say each torpedo killed one IoM ship and their phasers kill another 250. So each Federation ship could destroy 500 Imperial ships, and they'd still be outnumbered thousands to one. All it would take is a few Thunderhawks to slip by and it's game over. When it comes to planetary invasion, the Imperium is hard to top. Finally, guess what happens when thousands, if not millions of people are all dying horribly in one place?

Terminus wrote:I know the Nova lances' description is outrageous with something like ptons of energy. That said, since torpedoes ignore void shields, that may explain the discrepancy. If we're talking direct on the hull Nova hits, then that's totally silly. So as I said in my previous post, both settings are full of their own brand of bs, whether stemming from the fans or the source material.

Going back over Ivan's numbers (wherever they came from) seem to indicate that Torps are in the 2.9PT range - my mistake. This changes things around the other way, considering that now the Novacannon at 22PTs, which is partially deflected by the void shields now seems woefully inadequate, considreing that torps are fired in large quantities. Weapon batteries should be useless considering they fire in the 10GT range, but they are also known to damage enemy ships. So... to recap the info from Ivan's post:

Void shields operate at a sustained output in the neighbourhood of 10E+6 yellow dwarf stars.
Novacannons output at (22PT) fire at 0.1 yellow dwarf stars/s
IoM torpedoes have a yield of (3PT) have a yield of just over 0.01 yellow dwarf stars/s
Weapon batteries (10GT) are 2 million times weaker than a novacannon and 0.3 million times weaker than a torpedo.
Adamantium armor is back calculated from expected damage from incoming weapons fire.

Given that all the above listed weapons can (and have) eventually destroy an IoM ship... we have the following immediate problems:

1. Void shield value would seem to indicate that it would overpower everything except torps, which it is stated not to stop. This suggests that the void shield value is greatly overstated.
2. Void shield reduced novacannons are either not stopped much or they'd be not much more effective than torpedoes. The fluff does not support this view, as the Novacannon is regarded to be much more powerful than torpedoes, therefore, one might conclude that the some combination of the following has occured: Void shield value overstated, Novacannon understated, Torpedo overstated. Given the above issue with the void shield value, one might suggest that both the void shield value is overstated, and the torpedo statistic is overstated.
3. Weapon batteries power can damage capital ships at 10GT. This one is really problematic, as weapons batteries (while firing 1000's of shots) are vastly underpowered AND stopped by void shields. This also supports the assumption that void shields are vastly overstated, and also supports the assumption that torpedoes are overstated, as they cause damage after ignoring void shields. It stands to reason that weapons batteries should be more powerful than torpedoes as they must bypass shields.
4. Using weapons batteries as a baseline, at the stated 10GT/shot, assuming continuous broadside fire (assuming 2000 guns @ rate of one shot / 5 seconds) and using a 2 week timeframe indicated in a previous post, they would have fired 484 billion shells with a cumulative 4838.4PT damage. Of course, an unknown quantity is stopped by the shields. Assuming they are 75% stopped, this would mean that 403 torpedoes would have the same effect, and an IoM capital ship would have a damage capacity of 1613PT.

Of course, we run into the issues with torpedoes having 1% sun output numbers, novacannons firing 10% sun's output, and the ludicrous numbers of shells fired. Given Ivan's assumption of each shell being 5m^3 in space - 484 billion shells would take up 24.2km^3, which is somewhat more than the size of the ship firing them... and that's if the entire volume of the ship were made up of shell space... but we all know that 1000's of shells are continously fired over huge periods of time, so we have no recourse but to lower the size of the shells, and uh... raise the yield on them some arbitrary amount...

So in conclusion, I'd like to submit that based on the information I have, nothing can be determined about the veracity of the IoM claims other than they seem saturated by this "bs" that you describe.

Within context of those numbers, the stated value of the void shields is just as silly as this theoretical yield of proton torpedoes. Mentality, resources, and sheer numbers decide this battle.

Terminus wrote:Within context of those numbers, the stated value of the void shields is just as silly as this theoretical yield of proton torpedoes. Mentality, resources, and sheer numbers decide this battle.

Considering that the quantity of numbers that the IoM can muster is also an unknown value outside the "millions of worlds", "countless soldiers" and "immense industrial capacity" claims... What does that even mean? Does having "millions of planets" mean that the navy contains some integer multipe of "millions of planets" ships? It better have - otherwise, how will it transport, supply and feed the untold legions of the IoM (- obviously, they MUST supply billions of soldiers from each planet and have X navy support, regardless if the world is a primitive one, a death world, agricultural, a survey station, a forgeworld etc....)

Everything about the IoM is so wrapped in hyperbole with no way of quantifying any of their assets. That's like saying that ManBearPig can beat an ewok in hand to hand, because he is known to be bigger - nevermind that none of his other stats are known, nor does he have enough screentime to determine anything.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.