Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update!

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**Sining**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Weirdest part of all their updates the other day was the mention that they've got Relic Knights supposedly in production.

Yet didn't SDE fund far before it?

I'll say this- hopefully all these "masterclass" figures they've been releasing are helping get funds back into the company and into getting this thing fulfilled.

I'd love to get my Relic Knights stuff, and I'd still probably consider picking up the SDE stuff when it eventually finds its way into retail, especially if they've made the rules a bit more accessible.

I don't really bother reading the updates any more...

Probably because RK is produced in Europe and not China.

**JohnHwangDD**

Oooh... another fluffdate with more artwork!

That's like 5 minutes of scribble right there... They really don't give a feth.

**Ian Sturrock**

Super Dungeon Explore has basically always failed to deliver on its promises. After first edition shipped with cool minis and a dreadful, grindy, boring game, and they promised to fix it with Forgotten King that delivered slightly less cool minis and an even more dreadful, grindy, boring game, I am very surprised any future versions got any backers.

**JohnHwangDD**

Another empty update, but this time, the scribbler was sober!

**Col Hammer**

I was waiting for you to post that picture and ignore the colour picture! Was not disapointed!

**Sarouan**

Col Hammer wrote:
I was waiting for you to post that picture and ignore the colour picture! Was not disapointed!

Let's right this wrong, then

**Dice Monkey**

So glad I get to see stuff unrelated to the kickstarter instead of anything concrete. How does SPM know I hate money, and my hobby is creatively disposing of it in a way that will in no way benefit myself or anyone else?

**Col Hammer**

How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?

**Dice Monkey**

Col Hammer wrote:
How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?

Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.

**Col Hammer**

Dice Monkey wrote:
Col Hammer wrote:
How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?

Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.

White knight? LOL, you're funny!

**Sarouan**

Col Hammer wrote:
Dice Monkey wrote:
Col Hammer wrote:
How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?

Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.

White knight? LOL, you're funny!

Anything that goes against the narrative of Angry Backers for SDE is automatically "white knighting". Facts or arguments are irrelevant, it's all about the feels. Didn't you know ?

**Col Hammer**

Sarouan wrote:
Col Hammer wrote:
Dice Monkey wrote:
Col Hammer wrote:
How are these updates unrelated to the kickstarter when this is the background text that will appear in SDE Legends books?

Because it's chicken scratch drawings not related to the CONCRETE production of the kickstarter, how about a production sample or a timeline. We won't get that will we? I don't understand people trying to white knight this crap, you are as bad as the Palladium fanboys trying to defend the Robotech kickstarter.

White knight? LOL, you're funny!

Anything that goes against the narrative of Angry Backers for SDE is automatically "white knighting". Facts or arguments are irrelevant, it's all about the feels. Didn't you know ?

Looks like I didn't get the memo. Thanks for letting me know!

Now, what is the uniform requirement for a white knight? Do I need a shining armour? Is a horse mandatory? A high horse even?

**PsychoticStorm**

The thread title alludes to alarming news I could not find anywhere, any info about it? links? solid information?

**Krinsath**

"Failing to deliver" is mainly JHDD's take on the fact that they haven't seemingly started production yet (or have not announced such to my knowledge) for a project that was supposed to be delivered a year-and-a-half ago. It can be argued that they failed to deliver, and are continuing to do so, and thus "failing to deliver" is accurate as they continue to be in that state of non-delivery.

As far as "no refunds", an update was posted on March 23rd that reads in part:

Refund Policy Update
At this late stage in the Kickstarter we are officially ending the open refund period, effective immediately. While we understand the delay in fulfilment is frustrating, because we are in the production process we must be able to have firm numbers in order to plan logistics and production.

If you have previously requested a refund during the open refund period, it will remain in our queue and you will receive your refund. We apologize for any delay you may have encountered in receiving your refund. They are not forgotten, and will be processed as they move through our queue.

Reports are that long before that refunds had stopped being processed anyway (BGG thread indicating possibly as early as September 2017), and a cursory glance at grumblings indicate that the ball hasn't moved too much on that front in the intervening months.

So, yeah...hard to argue that the thread title is inaccurate.

**Dice Monkey**

Sarouan wrote:

Anything that goes against the narrative of Angry Backers for SDE is automatically "white knighting". Facts or arguments are irrelevant, it's all about the feels. Didn't you know ?

That's it, act incredulous mock people who lost money but give the benefit of the doubt to the company that took over a million dollars from people and all they do is publish scribbles and write rules to incorporate other products while pre-production copies sit around untouched for three years. I think they are much more deserving of the hate spewed at them then say GW who doesn't steal peoples money. If you want a discussion why not discuss then having an update that says MINIATURES! followed by a message that says, sorry for a game that funded more than a year after and is already on the shelves.

**JohnHwangDD**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
The thread title alludes to alarming news I could not find anywhere, any info about it? links? solid information?

Did you not read the Updates?

SPM wrote:Mar 23 2018

Production

First and foremost, as most of you have surmised, wave one will not be arriving in April as we had previously estimated. As we have shown in multiple updates, development and layout for most rewards is complete. (Development will be covered in more detail below.)

Production has obviously faced some major hurdles and delays. To overcome them, we have had to move the production of the Super Dungeon: Explore core game to a new manufacturer. We are beginning this shift with just Explore in order to iron out the process. We will then work with both of our manufacturing partners towards the creation of all of the additional rewards.

We have done (and will continue) all due diligence to ensure that all Super Dungeon product remains consistent and of the high quality you expect across all products. It is every bit as import to us, as it is to you, that the final Super Dungeon product is an exceptional experience.

This shift naturally leads to the question of timelines. While we have done our best to provide you with accurate estimates of timelines, we have obviously not been successful in our estimates. We apologize for this. It has not been our intention in any way to mislead you. Estimates were made based upon the best information we had available at the time. Going forward, we will no longer be providing time estimates. We will only be providing concrete milestones once they have been achieved. While this does not provide the false “comfort” of a delivery estimate, it will make it so that when we update you with a production milestone it will have the weight of having been hit.

Refund Policy Update

At this late stage in the Kickstarter we are officially ending the open refund period, effective immediately. While we understand the delay in fulfilment is frustrating, because we are in the production process we must be able to have firm numbers in order to plan logistics and production.

If you have previously requested a refund during the open refund period, it will remain in our queue and you will receive your refund. We apologize for any delay you may have encountered in receiving your refund. They are not forgotten, and will be processed as they move through our queue.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2144515

If you cut through the crap, SPM is doing nothing to produce anything, despite previously claiming they were ready to produce Wave 1. Their last "production" update was March 23 - 3 months ago, and nothing has happened since then. They are no closer to delivery today, than they were in March. There is zero progress on that front. Compare with Starfinder or WotF or anything else, and it's clear that SPM isn't doing a damn thing on the SDE:L KS.

SPM also willfully and materially breach the contract by unilaterally declaring that they won't accept refunds, despite (obviously) not being within the 8 weeks window. Not that they have provided any refunds since last year (6 months ago), despite written replies that they would.

**foenixphate**

Have to agree with John, requested a refund in Jan, nothing since then at all, in what world is 6 months appropriate to withhold a refund, note they can't be that hard up as they are firing out these resin figures for Super Dungeon, just not refunds.

**PsychoticStorm**

I have to disagree on principle, he words it to be negative, giving it his spin of events.

Yes, it is going to be delayed for god knows when and they do have stopped refunds, but, they have not said or claimed they even intent to fail to deliver, they might, but until solid information by SPM or somebody credible surfaces the title is misleading.

"Delivery postponed without new date announced/ no refund policy" sounds more appropriate and equally pessimistic/ aggressive.

I am not saying not been at best disappointed with them, but failing to deliver means one thing, not telling us when they will deliver is another thing.

**JohnHwangDD**

Given that you're not a native English speaker, and that you didn't create the thread, I'll title it whatever I deem appropriate.

SPM *is* failing to deliver, that's a fact. Any negative connotation is due to SPM's continuing failure to deliver a game that is more than a year overdue. If they don't want this sort of thing, there's an easy fix.

You wanna guess what it is?

I'll tell you:

Deliver the fething game!

See? That wasn't so hard at all.

**PsychoticStorm**

Indeed I am not a native English speaker and indeed it is not my thread.

I expressed that I feel the new thread title is misleading, reading it I came here expecting to read a quotation from SPM that would say "we are not going to deliver sucks to be you" in a more corporate speech.

**JohnHwangDD**

That's basically what they said, except you are confusing "failing to deliver" with "refusing to deliver".

**Col Hammer**

I thought you got your money back, so why still so mad at them? You have no dog in this race anymore.

I am a backer with a pledge in and waiting to see if it deliveres or not.

Meanwhile I have downloaded the Arcade rules and cards, so I can actually play the game while waiting.

**JohnHwangDD**

I got most of what I was owed, but they still shorted me on the refund. I consider it a public service to keep the spotlight on them.

**Col Hammer**

The refund is what you pledged minus the KS fees, right? Or did they short you more than that?

**JohnHwangDD**

They shorted me more than that. I did all of the math for them and they still didn't get it right.

**Col Hammer**

Ok, that is bad.

The KS page said "Refunds requested after 60 days are made through Paypal only, less Kickstarter and payment processing fees, which we cannot get back" and they should stick to that.

I, myself, will be out of the whole pledge money if they won't deliver, but I've decided to roll the dice and see what happens.

This is actually my first KS which might not deliver, so I guess I have picked them carefully enough so far.

**JohnHwangDD**

I've had Palladium pull the plug on Wave 2 of Robotech, along with Journey almost dead for Wave 2. At least I got something for those two, with a glimmer of hope for more.

**highlord tamburlaine**

This is the only game I've ever requested a refund on, having backed well over 300 projects to various capacities. I don't know what that says about me, my habits, or the game though.

Yet for whatever reason I've still got a Relic Knights pledge.

Gotta give Soda Pop credit for trying to bring in more revenue via all the resin releases lately. Hopefully the funds can get stuff produced that much sooner!

**Col Hammer**

I'm purchasing some of those resin SDE figures, but not everything. Making the decision case by case.

Also buying the NAS upgrade cards to play the Ninjas in SDE.

I guess I need to do some purchases in Soda store just to retain my SDE White Knight membership badge.

**skullking**

I'm guessing SDE must have spent too much on buying the rights to put out all those other companies games, that they've depleted their reserves from this KS. I have yet to get my Rail Raiders pledge yet either, despite messaging them several times through KS. I think combining the RPG with the regular game was a poor choice also, as I don't think everyone really wanted an RPG, and it could have easily just been it's own smaller KS. I really hope they are able to finish this one, as I do love the game, and they funded some awesome stuff.