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 Luciferian wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
So a guy at GW said terminators will have 2 wounds in 8th... is this confirmed or bull ?

Where have you been?

Yes, GW released some sample units' stats yesterday and termies were one of them.

lol

sorry this made me laugh

 Luciferian wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
So a guy at GW said terminators will have 2 wounds in 8th... is this confirmed or bull ?

Where have you been?

Yes, GW released some sample units' stats yesterday and termies were one of them.

I'm sorry I live under a rock lol, can you link the sample units please?

If Terminators have 2 wounds, a 2+ save that at best will be reduced to 5+ or 6+ by anti tank weapons and maybe another fnp style save on top of that, will they finally be tough enough? I feel like they will.

So long as they can increase their attack power things will be looking up.

I wonder how GK Palidins will be differentiated from regular Termies now. I can't imagine them having 3 wounds each.

They could very well have 3 wounds, or even 4! Most stuff seems to be getting a lot more wounds if they had more than 1 before.

Well, we have the new to-wound chart and now things are getting interesting.

Against traditional S6-7 foils, T4 stuff has seen a boost in toughness. So while we can't assume stats for terminator-bane yet (S7 AP2 in previous editions) and we don't know what other rules they have to help survival out, this is another baked-in (in terms of it just being part of the rules) buff to T4 armies in general.

It will be interesting to see what the new stats for plasma weaponry is. My hunch is that it will be getting a downgrade to AP -2 to give more room in the scale for dedicated anti-tank stuff (assuming a 0 to -3 range like AoS, roughly half the scale we had back in 2nd Edition). But even at -3 only wounding on a 3+ and possibly not being able to kill in one hit (depends on if it warrants a d3 or not) if a pretty big boon for teminators.

Storm bolters will also get a boost vs. T6 and T7 units as well, but that isn't super huge. I'm still holding out for them becoming Assault 3-4 or something. But we also don't know what fists will be like (some are hypothesizing a -1 WS mod, which sounds reasonable) so they may work out really well as a hybrid shoot-assault unit. Hell, if the storm bolter becomes a pistol when they wield it that has some interesting implications for them as well. And of course we still need to know what deep strike looks like (and whether you can shoot before assaulting).

Still too many variables to tell, but this edition has definitely made terminators tougher so far.

I'm kind of intrigued to see what becomes of Deathwing Knights now.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Well, we have the new to-wound chart and now things are getting interesting.

Against traditional S6-7 foils, T4 stuff has seen a boost in toughness. So while we can't assume stats for terminator-bane yet (S7 AP2 in previous editions) and we don't know what other rules they have to help survival out, this is another baked-in (in terms of it just being part of the rules) buff to T4 armies in general.

It will be interesting to see what the new stats for plasma weaponry is. My hunch is that it will be getting a downgrade to AP -2 to give more room in the scale for dedicated anti-tank stuff (assuming a 0 to -3 range like AoS, roughly half the scale we had back in 2nd Edition). But even at -3 only wounding on a 3+ and possibly not being able to kill in one hit (depends on if it warrants a d3 or not) if a pretty big boon for teminators.

Storm bolters will also get a boost vs. T6 and T7 units as well, but that isn't super huge. I'm still holding out for them becoming Assault 3-4 or something. But we also don't know what fists will be like (some are hypothesizing a -1 WS mod, which sounds reasonable) so they may work out really well as a hybrid shoot-assault unit. Hell, if the storm bolter becomes a pistol when they wield it that has some interesting implications for them as well. And of course we still need to know what deep strike looks like (and whether you can shoot before assaulting).

Still too many variables to tell, but this edition has definitely made terminators tougher so far.

I'm kind of intrigued to see what becomes of Deathwing Knights now.

power fists like lascannons and the like will likely do more wounds, my bet is d3 per hit to the model.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Well, we have the new to-wound chart and now things are getting interesting.

Against traditional S6-7 foils, T4 stuff has seen a boost in toughness. So while we can't assume stats for terminator-bane yet (S7 AP2 in previous editions) and we don't know what other rules they have to help survival out, this is another baked-in (in terms of it just being part of the rules) buff to T4 armies in general.

It will be interesting to see what the new stats for plasma weaponry is. My hunch is that it will be getting a downgrade to AP -2 to give more room in the scale for dedicated anti-tank stuff (assuming a 0 to -3 range like AoS, roughly half the scale we had back in 2nd Edition). But even at -3 only wounding on a 3+ and possibly not being able to kill in one hit (depends on if it warrants a d3 or not) if a pretty big boon for teminators.

Storm bolters will also get a boost vs. T6 and T7 units as well, but that isn't super huge. I'm still holding out for them becoming Assault 3-4 or something. But we also don't know what fists will be like (some are hypothesizing a -1 WS mod, which sounds reasonable) so they may work out really well as a hybrid shoot-assault unit. Hell, if the storm bolter becomes a pistol when they wield it that has some interesting implications for them as well. And of course we still need to know what deep strike looks like (and whether you can shoot before assaulting).

Still too many variables to tell, but this edition has definitely made terminators tougher so far.

I'm kind of intrigued to see what becomes of Deathwing Knights now.

I wonder if they'll seperate the Grey Knight wrist-mounted jobbie? Not exactly a pistol that.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They could very well have 3 wounds, or even 4! Most stuff seems to be getting a lot more wounds if they had more than 1 before.

I'm thinking 4 wounds.

This would make them viable, if and only if instant death is no longer a thing.

If instant death is a thing, it doesn't matter how many wounds they have, since strength 8 is EVERYWHERE.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Well, we have the new to-wound chart and now things are getting interesting.

Against traditional S6-7 foils, T4 stuff has seen a boost in toughness. So while we can't assume stats for terminator-bane yet (S7 AP2 in previous editions) and we don't know what other rules they have to help survival out, this is another baked-in (in terms of it just being part of the rules) buff to T4 armies in general.

It will be interesting to see what the new stats for plasma weaponry is. My hunch is that it will be getting a downgrade to AP -2 to give more room in the scale for dedicated anti-tank stuff (assuming a 0 to -3 range like AoS, roughly half the scale we had back in 2nd Edition). But even at -3 only wounding on a 3+ and possibly not being able to kill in one hit (depends on if it warrants a d3 or not) if a pretty big boon for teminators.

Storm bolters will also get a boost vs. T6 and T7 units as well, but that isn't super huge. I'm still holding out for them becoming Assault 3-4 or something. But we also don't know what fists will be like (some are hypothesizing a -1 WS mod, which sounds reasonable) so they may work out really well as a hybrid shoot-assault unit. Hell, if the storm bolter becomes a pistol when they wield it that has some interesting implications for them as well. And of course we still need to know what deep strike looks like (and whether you can shoot before assaulting).

Still too many variables to tell, but this edition has definitely made terminators tougher so far.

I'm kind of intrigued to see what becomes of Deathwing Knights now.

I wonder if they'll seperate the Grey Knight wrist-mounted jobbie? Not exactly a pistol that.

Back in the day Grey Knights had a rule that treated their Storm Bolters as Pistols in melee, so that they would get a bonus attack. I think the trade-off was no extra attacks on the charge.
I'd like them to get their old Shrouding rule back.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They could very well have 3 wounds, or even 4! Most stuff seems to be getting a lot more wounds if they had more than 1 before.

I'm thinking 4 wounds.

This would make them viable, if and only if instant death is no longer a thing.

If instant death is a thing, it doesn't matter how many wounds they have, since strength 8 is EVERYWHERE.

At this point, if ID is still around, that would be all kinds of silly. That doesn't mean it is gone. But I'm not holding my breath, I'm basically 99% certain at this point that it's dead, dead, dead.

Multi-wound does what it did, but with less wild swing depending on target toughness. It was another one of those throwing out the baby with the bath water situations that 3rd Edition created. Sure, rolling d8's and d12's for damage was daft in a game what otherwise just used d6's. The solution was not to wipe the whole thing out and institute the ill-advised ID system that made T3-4 characters useless. The solution was to do what WFB did and just use d3's and d6's for damage.

So I wouldn't expect ID to stick around considering it was a poorly-implemented stopgap caused by an overreaction to the less than stellar multi-wound implementation in 2nd. But just like ASM's (and mods in general), what it needed was a lighter touch than a ground-up re-design.

I certainly hope Terminators become useful in 8th edition.

My modest collection of 40K models is includes a very high percentage of Terminators. Granted they are spread out over my two actual 40K factions (Black Legion and Fallen Dark Angel) as well as my more recent addition of Blood Angels via Space Hulk. Though, the Space Hulk ones aren't likely to see anything more than the board game.

All told, I have some 28 Terminators. To put that in perspective for my collection, I only have 25 cultists; 30 if you count 5 guardsmen I painted up as traitors.

After everything I've read in the previews I've doubled down on my terminators and now have almost 2k of Deathwing As for how many that is, it's 3 five man squads, 2 assault squads, a squad of Deathwing knights (may get more), a Deathwing command squad, Belial, chaplain, librarian, and a captain, plus a few extra heavy weapons. I don't think they will be OP, but the idea of them being in the same ballpark of everyone else is exciting. Today's announcement just validates that decision, with every model having split fire and the new wound chart.

If Plasma goes down to AP -2 (as seems likely) and stays at S7 a terminator goes from a (1 - (5/6 * 2/3)) 45% chance of not taking a wound from a plasma weapon hit to a (1-(2/3 * 1/2) to a 66% chance of not taking a wound. On top of that, they now have 2+ wounds. To put it another way, before it took about 2 plasma shots to down a terminator, now it will take 6. That's a stellar improvement.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Well, we have the new to-wound chart and now things are getting interesting.

Against traditional S6-7 foils, T4 stuff has seen a boost in toughness. So while we can't assume stats for terminator-bane yet (S7 AP2 in previous editions) and we don't know what other rules they have to help survival out, this is another baked-in (in terms of it just being part of the rules) buff to T4 armies in general.

It will be interesting to see what the new stats for plasma weaponry is. My hunch is that it will be getting a downgrade to AP -2 to give more room in the scale for dedicated anti-tank stuff (assuming a 0 to -3 range like AoS, roughly half the scale we had back in 2nd Edition). But even at -3 only wounding on a 3+ and possibly not being able to kill in one hit (depends on if it warrants a d3 or not) if a pretty big boon for teminators.

Storm bolters will also get a boost vs. T6 and T7 units as well, but that isn't super huge. I'm still holding out for them becoming Assault 3-4 or something. But we also don't know what fists will be like (some are hypothesizing a -1 WS mod, which sounds reasonable) so they may work out really well as a hybrid shoot-assault unit. Hell, if the storm bolter becomes a pistol when they wield it that has some interesting implications for them as well. And of course we still need to know what deep strike looks like (and whether you can shoot before assaulting).

Still too many variables to tell, but this edition has definitely made terminators tougher so far.

I'm kind of intrigued to see what becomes of Deathwing Knights now.

I wonder if they'll seperate the Grey Knight wrist-mounted jobbie? Not exactly a pistol that.

Back in the day Grey Knights had a rule that treated their Storm Bolters as Pistols in melee, so that they would get a bonus attack. I think the trade-off was no extra attacks on the charge.

I'd like them to get their old Shrouding rule back.

Huh...semi-related - ever seen RWBY? Bit like Yang's gauntlet guns. Punch and trigger.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They could very well have 3 wounds, or even 4! Most stuff seems to be getting a lot more wounds if they had more than 1 before.

I'm thinking 4 wounds.

This would make them viable, if and only if instant death is no longer a thing.

If instant death is a thing, it doesn't matter how many wounds they have, since strength 8 is EVERYWHERE.

I am 99.99999% sure instant death is gone. Multiple wounds is the replacement.

So the last question in the terminator puzzle is, what do storm shields do.

 Grimgold wrote:
So the last question in the terminator puzzle is, what do storm shields do.

Well, I think we're also still waiting on what storm bolters do, what all of their close combat weapons do, as well as what storm shields do, and most importantly what do they cost.

From the FB comments, they imply the storm bolter is going to fire "oh, so many shots" but that could mean anything. Considering that SM bikes are now likely sporting Rapid Fire 2 "twin boltguns" the storm bolter is going to either need to become just another "twin boltgun" or it will need an upgrade. Because I would take a weapon that pumps out 4 shots at 12" (and 2 at 24") any day of the week over the current storm bolter.

Other close combat weapons? That is still another big chunk of the puzzle, with fists being an incredibly important part of it.

Storm shields (and invulnerable saves in general) are still a big unknown.

And above all, even if they're improved, if they're too expensive for what we get they still wont hit the field.

Oh, and they still haven't told us what other defensive abilities terminators have (because they said they have a few more tricks up their sleeves).

So yeah, still a ton of missing context here, but that things are changing is at least promising. It's a damn sight better than we've had for a long while, even if it ends up all being for nought.

 Grimgold wrote:
So the last question in the terminator puzzle is, what do storm shields do.

Moreover, how do invulnerable saves work?

If calculating invlun save works *exactly the same* as it did in 7th edition, where you just apply the better save and roll, the most cost effective weapons for shooting storm shield terminators would be heavy bolters. Lots of dice, -1 save mod to drop them to 3+/3++, wounding on 3's.

Of course the second they're in cover you'd want a -2 AP, but still, with those shields they're not so much worried about cover anymore.

Assuming, of course, Grav isn't around anymore, and wounding on 2s.

Storm bolters are almost assuredly rapid fire 2 bolters, Maybe they get up to assault 3. We know this because we know the rules for combi-bolters (literally rapid fire 2 bolters), and we know they are pretty close to parity.

Power Fist are str x2, AP -3, and do a d3 damage. So two terminators in CC will do about as much damage as a battle cannon. Lighting claws and thunder hammers are a little less clear, but we know their zip code if not their street address.

We also know invul saves are still around, they mentioned Magnus has one in the characters preview. At a guess, it will be a AoS style ethereal save which ignores rend.

 Grimgold wrote:
Storm bolters are almost assuredly rapid fire 2 bolters, Maybe they get up to assault 3. We know this because we know the rules for combi-bolters (literally rapid fire 2 bolters), and we know they are pretty close to parity.

Well that is the rub.

The game currently has three different weapons whose concept is "two boltguns duct taped together".

Bikes have twin-linked bolters. Chaos terminators wield the combi-bolter (identical to a twin-linked bolter). Loyalist terminators use the storm bolter, which while it is supposed to be basically two bolt guns strapped together, it currently functions like one and a half.

Now, if GW simplified and crunched all these weapons down in to one profile, I wouldn't complain. Getting 4 shots at 12" basically plays in to the CQB nature of terminators and plays well with the SB+Fist loadout that wants to be in close and getting stuck in.

But with that said, this doesn't mean they will be the same. The storm bolter has long had a distinct profile, and with 8th edition re-introducing classic combi-weapons and distinct twin-linked weapon rules it is the first time that a biker's twin boltgun and Chaos terminator's combi-bolter have a chance at being distinct weapons since 2nd Edition exited stage left.

Given that, I think GW may actually stick with the storm bolter having its own profile in order to make it a proper upgrade over the thing Chaos terminators will be using (and given the new combi rules, chaos terminators just got a massive potential firepower boost).

Either way is a win. Rapid Fire 2 storm bolters are nifty, but a hypothetical Assault 3-4 one would be pretty great as well. We'll have to wait and see.

Where i would have looked at fixing terminators:

Starting with current vanilla marine termies and prices:

Hard to kill - may reroll any innate armour saves or invulnerable saves. This wouldn't apply to storm shields.

Special ammo - storm bolters and combi bolters can use sternguard special ammo.

Lightning claws - still cheaper than thunder hammers, but ap2 (or equivalent in the new system) to encourage a reason to take anything but th/ss termies.

Price reductions - depending on how the above worked out, i'd be looking at their costs for heavy weapons to start with, and of course their base price.

Just my 2 cents though.

Remember everyone, its possible that they may go back to the old Fantasy methods of saves. Where you got multiple saves vs wounds. So you could get your armor, and then either choice of invuln or feel no pain(or whatever it's replacement is). Sort of compensating for the fact that armor gets made much less effective than it looks on paper.

Storm Shields would probably no longer give a 3+ invuln if this is the case, but might be something like +2 to your invuln saves. So terminators with storm shields would have a 3+ invuln still, but a regular dude with no invuln would only get a 5+ with a Storm shield. but he would get both his armor and his invuln save vs any wounds.

Storm Shields could also be something else entirely. Like reduce the Rend value of any wounds by 2. So effectively giving you +2 to your armor.

 Torga_DW wrote:
Where i would have looked at fixing terminators:

Starting with current vanilla marine termies and prices:

Hard to kill - may reroll any innate armour saves or invulnerable saves. This wouldn't apply to storm shields.

Special ammo - storm bolters and combi bolters can use sternguard special ammo.

Lightning claws - still cheaper than thunder hammers, but ap2 (or equivalent in the new system) to encourage a reason to take anything but th/ss termies.

Price reductions - depending on how the above worked out, i'd be looking at their costs for heavy weapons to start with, and of course their base price.

Just my 2 cents though.

with the new way of doing armor now, lightning claws are going to be an attractive option.

BrianDavion wrote:
with the new way of doing armor now, lightning claws are going to be an attractive option.

More attractive than before, sure. But i don't think we have enough info yet (do we? i haven't followed every rumour/preview that's come out) to say that they'll be an attractive alternative to the th/ss combo. Remember with the new rules, th won't be striking last all the time anymore. Basically i'd just like the different options to be viable and meaningful, instead of the obvious no-brainer choices that we've had for quite some time now, in which case lightning claws need a buff.

Alright, marine equipment leaked and we get a bit more context.

First, we have seen that a chaos terminator (sans equipment) is 31 points or so. Marines are likely to be in the ballpark. Next, we've seen enough stuff in terminator armour at this point that their traditional 5+ invulnerable is sticking around. Further, it doesn't look like they're getting any additional saves. So no ignoring mortal wounds or the like that I can see.

So where does that leave us?

First, the Stormbolter got a buff. It is now a twin-linked boltgun. So that is 4 shots at 12" now, meaning the rest of the squad will be providing a torrent of fire alongside their specialist brethren.

Second, the powerfist is vastly improved. It will strike first on a charge but now suffers a -1 to hit. But as marines used to basically always hit on a 4, this isn't a massive issue. That said, it is pricey now. A tactical terminator now looks like it might be more expensive than it used to be (but that is kind of expected now that they are quite a bit more survivable than they used to be (two wounds, no more insta-death making T4 a bad breakpoint). In return, its firepower is effectively doubled at range (compared to a tactical marine), and in hand-to-hand it is a beast against just about everything.

Third, the heavy weapons got a boost. The assault cannon is now Heavy 6 and S7. For Deathwing, the plasma cannon is now worth taking since it isn't saddled to the crappy small blast anymore and overheating is voluntary. The heavy flamer getting a -1 AP means that it is quite a bit more valuable against a variety of targets while remaining cheap. The only thing we haven't seen yet are whether that reaper autocannon in the marine list is something terminators can take, and what the CML does now (sure is expensive though).

So tactical terminators got a much needed firepower boost and are actually pretty decent in hand-to-hand now as well. Popping a tactical terminator squad in to a standard pattern land raider might not be a terrible idea anymore. Expensive still, but possibly worth the expense for once.

Still need to see a whole lot more. But this is starting to look promising.

Edit - Looks like basic terminators are 26 points!

So that is 48 points for a basic tactical terminator with a storm bolter and a power fist. Not too shabby at all considering the other costs we've seen.

yeah, but a storm bolter powerfist terminator is 72 points to a tac marines 13, or a primaris marines 20.

Also the below link has images not included in the imugr album:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334013-full-leaked-blood-angels-rules-other-space-marine-prices/

Huh? It's 26 points for the body, 20 for the powerfist, and 2 for the storm bolter.

A tactical marine is 48 points. Expensive, but not prohibitively so.

A full squad with a sword sergeant and an assault cannon are 247 points total.

This unit can teleport to 9", unleash 22 shots on one unit, and then potentially (27.78% of the time) charge.

Not sure where you're getting 72 points from for a single one.

Don't forget free split fire, and the new AP mechanic helping out Missiles and Assault Cannons. Storm Bolters got the fix I thought was most appropriate.

Reliable DS and improved Land Raiders solve the delivery problem.

The extra wound is nice but Melta, Grav, and Supercharged Plasma will still one-shot Terminators. However the new toughness mechanic means a S6 or S7 weapon wounds on a 3+, which is significant. They finally benefit from cover which is awesome.

All in all, a pretty good balance solution. They covered almost every glaring issue, while not making a 2W unit better in all situations.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Don't forget free split fire, and the new AP mechanic helping out Missiles and Assault Cannons. Storm Bolters got the fix I thought was most appropriate.

Reliable DS and improved Land Raiders solve the delivery problem.

The extra wound is nice but Melta, Grav, and Supercharged Plasma will still one-shot Terminators. However the new toughness mechanic means a S6 or S7 weapon wounds on a 3+, which is significant. They finally benefit from cover which is awesome.

All in all, a pretty good balance solution. They covered almost every glaring issue, while not making a 2W unit better in all situations.

Though what I love about the changes (as well as S6-7 wounding on 3+ now) is that it isn't as cut and dry.

Plasma is a real risk going overcharged for some units now. Unless you have a handy re-roll around, a 1-in-6 chance of losing the model is pretty nasty.

Grav? It does 1d3 wounds now. So a 1-in-3 chance that it only does one wound and you survive (in addition to wounding on 3+ instead of 2+).

Melta is arguably still an issue, but it remains short ranged and quite expensive now. And with drop pods moving to 107 points and rhinos bumping to 70 points, cheap ways of getting to point blank are few and far between. A combi-melta Sternguard unit in a pod is now massively expensive. 35 points per model and a 107 point transport. They hit like a ton of bricks, but even a 5-man in a pod costs 282 points now.

So the counters of terminators are still around, but less cut and dry than they were previously. Plasma is riskier to get that second wound, grav wont always deal 2+ wounds, and melta got a sort of meta-nerf by making traditional delivery methods quite a bit more expensive than before.

It will take more than juggling a bunch of stray scans and rumours to tell if terminators finally get to be good. But many of the changes they've needed to make them good choices appear to be falling in to place. So it is promising to say the least.

Just being a Twin-linked Bolter sounds cool. 2 shots at 24" and 4 within 12 is a big increase in firepower.

Looks like overall points have gone up a lot. We might be looking at the new equivalent of 1500 points to be around 3000.

And going by that one picture, looks like you can just choose your psychic powers now instead of having to roll randomly.

Psycannons will probably get 6 shots too given that they are Assault Cannons with Psybolt ammo. That's a good firepower upgrade for Grey Knights.