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I agree with Dionys. Mass Mortars and Guards infantry will outshoot anything we drop infant of them. I think yeah its cool to deep strike in there face but from a competitive standpoint we shouldn't. The better players will be ready for it and we will give them a good amount of points for it. Plus usually they will have screens like said above and on there turn they drop something scarier and then we are overwhelmed. The blood angel guard list or space wolves guard list would chew through any of our deep strike shenanigans we should probably focus on a more competitive standpoint. I have been playing Raven Guard this edition and although Strike from the Shadows is awesome with aggressors and some hell blasters, it only works against new players. A good player will get so many points from it and you're better off not doing it.

Bah, Silver Tide is my fav strategy though....shame that, even with the auto-pass morale WL and stuff like great Dynasty Traits, Warriors are still one of our weakest units...

Ima pop this up again since I didn't see an answer any of the previous pages I asked.



Does the abysall staffs effect still work on low leadership model hordes that get artificial leadership like Nids / Orks?

…Since the 'Phaerons will' strategy is use a characters MWBD ability for a second time in a turn, does that mean Imotekhs version that lets him MWBD 2 squads in a turn would let him MWBD 4 units if this was used? Or would he only get one extra use of mwbd for a total of 3 if the ability just lets him use the mwbd ability a second time?

Is the orb of eternity just a +1 rez orb, or is it Use the +1 effect once per battle and then it is still a rez orb so you can use that effect after?

Grimgold wrote:
To easy to zone an army like this with scouts and the like. 3 units of scouts and an army setup in denied flank could make you footslog halfway across the map.

Yeah, i was thinking about this too. Eventually you do not have to do this, if your opponent has scouts you can deploy them as usual.

Dionysodorus wrote:Ultimately, Warriors just don't provide that much firepower, nor are they that durable. You've got to remember that this is a meta where you have to be able to handle 100 Guardsmen or Fire Warriors or whatever.

The big issues with trying to drop a million Warriors on someone turn 1:

1) You're only in rapid fire range of their screens. So you don't really get much of an alpha strike. If your squads are all staying in range of 1 HQ, then you're likely also killing yourself out of RF range with the later squads.

2) You're now in range of everything they've got, and their infantry outshoots yours. Warriors only barely outshoot frickin' tactical marines. Guardsmen just crush them.

3) They can take a trash unit and tie up 240 points of Warriors for a turn since you have no way to get them out of CC and still shoot.

I feel like there may be room to drop a single squad of Warriors alongside the Destroyers just to keep people away from them a little better, but you almost certainly want a dude with Veil close by to keep them shooting next turn.

What other options we have? Let's imagine we need to kill 100 guardsmen. I barely see who can kill them but warriors... 3x10 Tesla immortals? With AP0 i think it might be more saves than AP-1 for warriors.
It looks like our codex is going to be below average. But i like Necrons so i'm trying to find any valid strategy to not loose every game.

2 squads of 20 warriors at 12" with a 5++ invulnerable to shooting and 2 4+ rp with auto pass moral is vulnerable? Considering they get to shoot first (dynasty not a part of equation) they are doing 80 shots, plus the ghost ark's shots, plus whatever other weapons you have shooting. 1st Turn won't matter much, if your opponent has you so you can't deploy well then wait a turn and work on making a hole.

Let's assume for this conversation that the units did get to deploy at double tap range but only has chaff to shoot at. That's still a lot of firepower to just shrug off. You should be able to kill around 30 guardsmen, so 3 normal squads. Give or take a few, may have a couple still floating around after from the squad, but they will probably run away after that. That still leaves a big hole. And it's not like your DDA's are sitting there waiting around to do nothing, they will be unloading into enemy tanks / big targets.

I am not saying there isn't more "effective" options or if there is a different way to do it or not, I just see this and think that's a pretty effective setup, those warriors are going to be very hard to deal with at range. And up close I plan to have a c'tan shard there for counter assault. If I get lucky with deceiver and his redeploy roll I can save the veil as a way to pull a squad out if it get charged and keep it within double tap range. The list has tactical options.

Do you even guard. 30 guardsmen is nothing :/

Art -


Well for hordes that are composed of lots of small squads but in tight formations you could try Amalgamated Targeting Data with 3 doomscythes. Even if you're giving up your Deathbeams that turn you've still got your tesla to follow up with as well.

The enemy would need a fairly large unit for it to make sense, however a sautekh leader firing their weapon first could be a good proc for 'Methodical destruction' for your warriors who will be lobbing in 40 something shots if they're away from a MWBD source. Heck if you've got immortals with tesla and mwbd thats 2 extra per 4+ and vehicle tesla at 5+ which isn't half bad if its T-shirts.

A 10 man group of Lychguard sword and boarding it up in the enemies grill can be an annoying soak, especially if you give them Dispersion Field Amplification and deal a few wounds in return to them regardless of distance. If they're smart they may stop shooting and take different targets and then try to melee you though.

It'll probably only get one turn, but a 20 man line of Flayed ones can pump out a decent amount of damage. If you stretch them out you can probably multi wrap 2 maybe 3+ groups depending on the size (though expect to take some losses the more units you try to wrap). However if it's one giant group then these flayed ones can put in some real hurt with a second fight phase thanks to Blood Rites and are all the deadlier if you somehow managed to get some buffing characters up there as well (ghost ark of leadership?). Hmm, unfortunately Imotekhs ability is Sautekh flayed ones so that's one potential buff down.

GEQ is a real hole in our line up, none of our units are particularly good at killing guardsmen. However we have units that are good at getting around screens.

 BlueBeetle wrote:
Do you even guard. 30 guardsmen is nothing :/

So what would you do to deal with guardsmen?

Thats the problem. As someone who plays 100 of them with Ravenguard I am terrified of them because I know what they can do. So many shots Ive shredded through Mortys with ease. Looking through the codex I really dont know and I am trying to find a way right now with the shop owner as we look through the codex. Will update on ideas.

We should explore this more thoroughly than just assuming a GEQ statline needs to be destroyed -- what is a common GEQ unit composition that one can expect to see, with enough regularity that a unit/units dedicated to dealing with them should be in a list? They will have the rest of their army backing them up as will we, so rather than "how to kill guardsmen," how do we defeat GEQ lists?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

What other options we have? Let's imagine we need to kill 100 guardsmen. I barely see who can kill them but warriors... 3x10 Tesla immortals? With AP0 i think it might be more saves than AP-1 for warriors.
It looks like our codex is going to be below average. But i like Necrons so i'm trying to find any valid strategy to not loose every game.

Oh, ha -- to be clear I meant that Warriors aren't actually hard to deal with because other armies are going to be ready to deal with 100 small bodies, and the same tools are going to be able to deal with the Warriors.

But no, I think Necrons still have no good way to deal with lots and lots of Guardsmen, even more than most factions. But the problem isn't really gauss flayers; even if you're forced to pay for unnecessary AP they're still the most efficient gun for the job in the codex. That's part of why I'm enthusiastic about DDAs -- it's not that Warriors are terrible at killing Guardsmen, but that Guardsmen are really good at killing Warriors. A rapid-firing Warrior kills 25% of its points in Guardsmen while a rapid-firing Guardsman kills 50% of its points in Warriors (and that's without FRFSRF). DDAs are almost as good at killing Guardsmen and are significantly more resilient in the face of lasguns (though they're hardly immune). I think the key is not taking anything that's actively terrible against Guardsmen. You might not beat an all-out infantry horde but lots of Tesla and DDAs will hold up pretty well against most of what you're likely to run into.

Drakmord wrote:
We should explore this more thoroughly than just assuming a GEQ statline needs to be destroyed -- what is a common GEQ unit composition that one can expect to see, with enough regularity that a unit/units dedicated to dealing with them should be in a list? They will have the rest of their army backing them up as will we, so rather than "how to kill guardsmen," how do we defeat GEQ lists?

Good idea, its just worrisome because in this edition and in my other list, a lot of people are running IG for the easy Brigade 9CP which gives tons of guardsmen and mortar fire. Its a go to ally right now. But you're right lets brainstorm!

Drakmord wrote:
We should explore this more thoroughly than just assuming a GEQ statline needs to be destroyed -- what is a common GEQ unit composition that one can expect to see, with enough regularity that a unit/units dedicated to dealing with them should be in a list? They will have the rest of their army backing them up as will we, so rather than "how to kill guardsmen," how do we defeat GEQ lists?

I think this is going to be hugely meta-dependent. More so than most things. You don't really see mass infantry at ITC, but that may be due to weird things like time limits on games -- an infantry horde is going to win by eventually dominating the board, but they won't necessarily table you or be ahead on objectives at the end of turn 2 or 3, and they take forever to play. But I've had great success with all-infantry Guard lists in competitive games using ITC rules without time limits.

So there's maybe an ITC tournament style Imperial soup list that brings up to 100 Guardsmen, but then 1600 points of bigger stuff. The Guardsmen will be mostly naked, maybe with mortars. The rest of the list is probably a little bit of the other OP Guard stuff like mortars, and then something like Blood Angels or whatever the Imperial fotm is. I think you can hope to deal with this, though it's also going to have some pretty terrifying stuff in it besides the Guardsmen.

While you can put together solid lists with a lot more infantry than this -- maybe bringing Elysians as well to deep strike lasguns -- you're probably not going to run into these either casually or at time-limited tournaments. But if you're in a competitive local group you may have some crazy person with enough models to do it.

So DDA, TB, Destroyers are our best options so far?

We can Run like Lord + 3xDDA, 2x6 Destroyers, 2x9 TB, CCB character sniper.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
We should explore this more thoroughly than just assuming a GEQ statline needs to be destroyed -- what is a common GEQ unit composition that one can expect to see, with enough regularity that a unit/units dedicated to dealing with them should be in a list? They will have the rest of their army backing them up as will we, so rather than "how to kill guardsmen," how do we defeat GEQ lists?

I think this is going to be hugely meta-dependent. More so than most things. You don't really see mass infantry at ITC, but that may be due to weird things like time limits on games -- an infantry horde is going to win by eventually dominating the board, but they won't necessarily table you or be ahead on objectives at the end of turn 2 or 3, and they take forever to play. But I've had great success with all-infantry Guard lists in competitive games using ITC rules without time limits.

So there's maybe an ITC tournament style Imperial soup list that brings up to 100 Guardsmen, but then 1600 points of bigger stuff. The Guardsmen will be mostly naked, maybe with mortars. The rest of the list is probably a little bit of the other OP Guard stuff like mortars, and then something like Blood Angels or whatever the Imperial fotm is. I think you can hope to deal with this, though it's also going to have some pretty terrifying stuff in it besides the Guardsmen.

While you can put together solid lists with a lot more infantry than this -- maybe bringing Elysians as well to deep strike lasguns -- you're probably not going to run into these either casually or at time-limited tournaments. But if you're in a competitive local group you may have some crazy person with enough models to do it.

At LVO there was so many ?? All the space marine list were Imperial allies with mass infantry or mortars . Blood angels, Drake Angels, Space wolves you name it they all had the soup with them. Its all I see at my shop :(

How does this look:

 vipoid wrote:
How does this look:

Spoiler:

Battalion:
Cryptek w/ Canoptek Cloak - 85
Overlord w/ Warscythe
10 Immortals w/ Tesla - 170
10 Immortals w/ Gauss - 170
10 Immortals w/ Gauss - 170
10 Immortals w/ Gauss - 170

Outrider:
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phylactery (Nanoscarab Casket) - 131
3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer - 207
3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer - 207
7 Scarabs - 91

1496pts (7CP)

1 unit of 6 destroyers will be better because of stratagem. Too many immortals, heavy destroyers do not worth it.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
I mean yeah you could forgoe a guaranteed cap vs hope to get a charge off.

Yea I'm reaching, but its objectively better than the nephrekh, nihilakh is trash. Mephrit is okay for the round of shooting you get before you get hugged and cant shoot anymore, Novokh is good if you want to run CC cron's, but we aren't a CC army, and its not a CC meta so your gimping yourself if you run that dynasty.....

Sautekh has the best warlord trait, amazing relic and stratagem. The code benefit is just the cherry on top. Its not amazing, but it gives you options, and doesn't remove your firepower for getting that extra movement most cron armies struggle to have (what with the ol terribly slow infantry)

Hang on, when you say objectively better do you mean the code or the Dynasty as a whole? If it's the whole package then there is an argument to be made (but your use of the term objectively is objectively wrong). If you mean just the code then I can't even fathom why you would think that.

You say Nihilak is trash. DDAs will get reroll 1's to hit every turn with them- not amazing but it's something, it WILL happen. By comparison if you use gauss TBs in a Sautekh list then there is a very specific situation, when the distances are just right, that you can take an objective off 5 marines??

Objectively better yes, if you advance 6" thats nice, but most weapons on most units/vehicles cannot shoot. Sautekh still allows them to shoot while getting 3.5"M, sacrificing 2.5" while getting alot more firepower. And yes, the dynasty on a whole is head and shoulders above the rest. The code benefits is probably the worst part of it and its still very handy and versatile

Red Corsair wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
I mean yeah you could forgoe a guaranteed cap vs hope to get a charge off.

Yea I'm reaching, but its objectively better than the nephrekh, nihilakh is trash. Mephrit is okay for the round of shooting you get before you get hugged and cant shoot anymore, Novokh is good if you want to run CC cron's, but we aren't a CC army, and its not a CC meta so your gimping yourself if you run that dynasty.....

Sautekh has the best warlord trait, amazing relic and stratagem. The code benefit is just the cherry on top. Its not amazing, but it gives you options, and doesn't remove your firepower for getting that extra movement most cron armies struggle to have (what with the ol terribly slow infantry)

Hang on, when you say objectively better do you mean the code or the Dynasty as a whole? If it's the whole package then there is an argument to be made (but your use of the term objectively is objectively wrong). If you mean just the code then I can't even fathom why you would think that.

You say Nihilak is trash. DDAs will get reroll 1's to hit every turn with them- not amazing but it's something, it WILL happen. By comparison if you use gauss TBs in a Sautekh list then there is a very specific situation, when the distances are just right, that you can take an objective off 5 marines??

I'd argue rerolls 1 is amazing. Couple that with a normal lord and your rocking the same backfield castle that any marine list is only your not paying for a captain. I could see 2-3 DDA and or HD and a lord from a Nihilak spearhead being well worth it in fact.

Nihilakh as a whole is trash, crappy W/L trait, crappy strat and the dynasty code really buffs...... DDA and nothing else as the rest of hte army moves. So yeah, Nihilakh is trash.

Requizen wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
I mean yeah you could forgoe a guaranteed cap vs hope to get a charge off.

Yea I'm reaching, but its objectively better than the nephrekh, nihilakh is trash. Mephrit is okay for the round of shooting you get before you get hugged and cant shoot anymore, Novokh is good if you want to run CC cron's, but we aren't a CC army, and its not a CC meta so your gimping yourself if you run that dynasty.....

Sautekh has the best warlord trait, amazing relic and stratagem. The code benefit is just the cherry on top. Its not amazing, but it gives you options, and doesn't remove your firepower for getting that extra movement most cron armies struggle to have (what with the ol terribly slow infantry)

Hang on, when you say objectively better do you mean the code or the Dynasty as a whole? If it's the whole package then there is an argument to be made (but your use of the term objectively is objectively wrong). If you mean just the code then I can't even fathom why you would think that.

You say Nihilak is trash. DDAs will get reroll 1's to hit every turn with them- not amazing but it's something, it WILL happen. By comparison if you use gauss TBs in a Sautekh list then there is a very specific situation, when the distances are just right, that you can take an objective off 5 marines??

I'd argue rerolls 1 is amazing. Couple that with a normal lord and your rocking the same backfield castle that any marine list is only your not paying for a captain. I could see 2-3 DDA and or HD and a lord from a Nihilak spearhead being well worth it in fact.

There's no comparison with our castles. Marines are running those with Devastators or Hellblasters. Our equivalents to those are Destroyers, which already reroll 1s. Immortals of either variety are not putting out the same damage as Imperial Gunlines even with Nihilakh and Lords. So really it's only to buff DDArks, which is nice... but not imo worth taking a whole detachment for.

Agreed.

Grimgold wrote:GEQ is a real hole in our line up, none of our units are particularly good at killing guardsmen. However we have units that are good at getting around screens.

Grim im really struggling to see your point on GEQ, you know we have MWBD immortals.... with sautekh they average 37 hits out of 20 without rr'ing 1's.... thats from 10 guys.

TB in RF range will mince a squad, you wont be seeing conscripts anymore. Sure cultist bombs can be a pain, but again, shoot a stalker at one, kill one with a sautekh unit, then shoot 74 tesla shots from 20 immortals with MWBD at them. Bye bye cultists.

 vipoid wrote:
How does this look:

Spoiler:

Battalion:
Cryptek w/ Canoptek Cloak - 85
Overlord w/ Warscythe
10 Immortals w/ Tesla - 170
10 Immortals w/ Gauss - 170
10 Immortals w/ Gauss - 170
10 Immortals w/ Gauss - 170

Outrider:
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phylactery (Nanoscarab Casket) - 131
3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer - 207
3 Destroyers + Heavy Destroyer - 207
7 Scarabs - 91

1496pts (7CP)

Not sure if you are trying to combo the Cloak and Casket but if you are they don't stack. Both alter Living Metal to be D3 so you just replace 1 wound with D3 the replace that D3 with D3.

How does the new DDA work with Sautekh code?

No move: can fire DDC on high power.
Move: cannot fire DDC on high, but can fire DDC on low with no penalty.
Advance: can fire DDC on high or low power with -1 (as it changes to assault).

That sounds a bit strange, in that you can fire DDC / high better when advancing than when just moving?

Drakmord wrote:
We should explore this more thoroughly than just assuming a GEQ statline needs to be destroyed -- what is a common GEQ unit composition that one can expect to see, with enough regularity that a unit/units dedicated to dealing with them should be in a list? They will have the rest of their army backing them up as will we, so rather than "how to kill guardsmen," how do we defeat GEQ lists?

I often used Arnakyr + orikan with a few warriors. People charging them are met with 2A and 5++ in close combat, surprise they didn't see coming. Most of the time warriors survive better in close combat than in ranged combat. And its a screen for your other firepower (DDA, monolith, destroyers, whatever) even if an expensive one.

I think the point of Necron is not to wash out the enemy, its to capture and control objectives and stay alive on it. We have ample new stuff in the codex to do that, but i haven't see anybody go that route so far.

Doomsday Arks: i used 3 of them for the past 6 month, and i'm happy to see them DOUBLED in effective power. But here's what to do with them: 1st round and may be 2nd, you snipe big stuff with it. But THEN you move ahead. 20 flyer shots is helpful, and S8 on the main gun is still good for most targets. Plus it's a big though screen to protect your weak troops.

hvg3akaek wrote:
How does the new DDA work with Sautekh code?

No move: can fire DDC on high power.
Move: cannot fire DDC on high, but can fire DDC on low with no penalty.
Advance: can fire DDC on high or low power with -1 (as it changes to assault).

That sounds a bit strange, in that you can fire DDC / high better when advancing than when just moving?

No, the high power mode just has a special rule that says you can only fire it if you don't move. Sautekh doesn't get around this.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
1 unit of 6 destroyers will be better because of stratagem. Too many immortals, heavy destroyers do not worth it.

- 6 Destroyers means two fewer destroyers, though.

- Would you recommend dropping one unit of them, or should I not be using squads of 10 at all?

- What's wrong with Heavy Destroyers?

 Fentlegen wrote:
Not sure if you are trying to combo the Cloak and Casket but if you are they don't stack. Both alter Living Metal to be D3 so you just replace 1 wound with D3 the replace that D3 with D3.

No, I just like the Casket and wanted to try the Cloak.

 Klowny wrote:

Grimgold wrote:GEQ is a real hole in our line up, none of our units are particularly good at killing guardsmen. However we have units that are good at getting around screens.

Grim im really struggling to see your point on GEQ, you know we have MWBD immortals.... with sautekh they average 37 hits out of 20 without rr'ing 1's.... thats from 10 guys.

TB in RF range will mince a squad, you wont be seeing conscripts anymore. Sure cultist bombs can be a pain, but again, shoot a stalker at one, kill one with a sautekh unit, then shoot 74 tesla shots from 20 immortals with MWBD at them. Bye bye cultists.

The question is one of efficiency.

Taking your example, you have 170 points of immortals, backed up by 87 points of Overlord, and you are going to take on a hypothetical 120 point 30 man unit og GEQ.

20 x ((1/2 * 2/3 * 2/3) + (1/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3)) = 20 * 2/3 = 13 dead guardsmen

Even under best case scenario, you are using 257 points to inflict 52 points of damage. If your lucky and your opponent isn't running MSU, you might get another 40 points in morale.That is less efficient than a group of immortals taking on a land raider.

Anything can be brute forced, you could use 120 immortals to kill a land raider, but consistently winning exchanges is about using your resources efficiently, and we do not have an efficient method for removing GEQ.

Am I missing something on the math of GEQ vs Warriors with support from a ghost ark?

40 warriors with out having to worry about moral should have little issue with 70 guards shooting Las at them even if they all were in double tap range.

70 guard, 140 shots, 70 hits, I will say 90 hits off of rerolls or whatever. That's 90 hits, 30 wounds since it's str 3 vs t4, let's say 36 wounds because rolls suck. That's still a 3+ save for only a loss of 6 guys on a squad of 20 that has 2 chances at rp, and 0 moral because I am sorry, the wl trait for ignore moral and block a power is just great. That's 3 getting up, then say 1 because rolls. So 70 guardsmen killed 2 warriors? How is that not an effective option for killing GEQ? Now you get to kill 30 more.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

Grimgold wrote:GEQ is a real hole in our line up, none of our units are particularly good at killing guardsmen. However we have units that are good at getting around screens.

Grim im really struggling to see your point on GEQ, you know we have MWBD immortals.... with sautekh they average 37 hits out of 20 without rr'ing 1's.... thats from 10 guys.

TB in RF range will mince a squad, you wont be seeing conscripts anymore. Sure cultist bombs can be a pain, but again, shoot a stalker at one, kill one with a sautekh unit, then shoot 74 tesla shots from 20 immortals with MWBD at them. Bye bye cultists.

The question is one of efficiency.

Taking your example, you have 170 points of immortals, backed up by 87 points of Overlord, and you are going to take on a hypothetical 120 point 30 man unit og GEQ.

20 x ((1/2 * 2/3 * 2/3) + (1/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3)) = 20 * 2/3 = 13 dead guardsmen

Even under best case scenario, you are using 257 points to inflict 52 points of damage. If your lucky and your opponent isn't running MSU, you might get another 40 points in morale.That is less efficient than a group of immortals taking on a land raider.

Anything can be brute forced, you could use 120 immortals to kill a land raider, but consistently winning exchanges is about using your resources efficiently, and we do not have an efficient method for removing GEQ.

Maybe we are looking at this wrong. Could our answer be fighting guardsmen in melee with their pitiful stats and poor saves, rather than shooting them? I find it hard to accept that guardsmen are the end all of our bad matchups.

Flayed Ones straight up remove Guard from the table. Potentially Scarabs too, though the WS nerf hurt them. Getting to them, however, is the main problem. Flayed Ones still lack a serious delivery system, and Scarabs just die too quickly. Maybe multiple max 9 man Scarab units just booking it towards the enemy lines, especially with Nephrekh + Strat on one unit.

How about a list focused on tanks where guardsmen arent a big deal.

2 crypteks
3x5 immortals
3 dda
2 tesseract vault

Not sure on code but sautek so dda can move out of combat and still shoot and for trait to get command points back. Vaults can deal with guardsmen while dda take on tanks.

Do FO lack a delivery system? An Overlord with a Veil and the Conqueror WLT can buff their WS and charge dice, deep strike them within 10" of the enemy, and give them re-rolls to their charge.