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Ive always found the availability issue somewhat amusing. We live in a world where the common view of retail is that of "apocalypse", where online shopping is prevalent and integrated with almost everything in life, and everyone is connected 24/7.

And yet, the fact that you can only get FW online is an issue? What do people do about GW webstore exclusives? Hell, for years the entire Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle lines were online only and nobody saw that as an issue then.

As for tariffs, if youre paying it on FW stuff, youre also paying it on GW stuff in all likelyhood. That said, I have no idea who would be paying a tarifd on gaming goods...maybe a VAT, but a tariff?

Wait? You pay tarrifs in your own country/ something that is produced in your own country?
Or do you just have that high taxes on miniatures / entertainment.

StrayIight wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually, tarifs are the reason, why outside of the UK / Commonwealth FW units are that expensive. I remember that i had to pay around 10-20% on tarifs for some of my units.
This is also why i stopped bothering Mail ordering and instead now switched over mainly to kitbashing aswell as buying Indexes electronical. I have looked into some 3rd parties but especially regarding Infantery units you have problems with their size.

To be fair, we pay an additional 20% on anything ordered from FW in the UK as well. Don't feel too bad - we don't get away with it either

Meanwhile, Down Under, we pay no VAT, GST (our equivalent but 10%) or import tariffs on FW, which means FW is the cheap option.

Seriously - depending on the vagaries of exchange rates, it is literally cheaper to buy a Damocles Rhino than just the GW plastic kit, or a squad of MkIVs with a Legion upgrade than just buying a box of MkIVs in plastic at your local GW. It’s the reason I’m vehemently against GW selling FW stuff in-store - the tiny bit of convenience it gets you Europeans and yanks will come at the cost of doubling the price of FW for us. No thanks.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait? You pay tarrifs in your own country/ something that is produced in your own country?
Or do you just have that high taxes on miniatures / entertainment.

Yeah, we have 20% added on almost all goods regardless of where they are produced unfortunately. It's typically just very basic things that are considered 'essentials' where you don't pay that 20%. Day to day that's usually just things like groceries. It's not specifically a tariff, but you'll be paying the exact same percentage whether you've bought it internally or overseas.

There are certainly places where it's higher, but overall the cost of living in the UK is relatively high really.

I think FWphobia is stupid but its their call to back out I suppose. I'd rather not play against someone who would possibly complain the entire time.

blaktoof wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
For a thread asking if any other people see this kind of behaviour, it seems as if this has gotten into was way too overthetop argument about justification.
Stop there? I think you've exhausted the point now.

For some people on dakka inclusion of FW has to be militantly defended to the point of anyone not wanting to play with it is somehow a troll, TFG, or even worse.

It's like the left/right extremes of the political spectrum. Both extremes are so adamant about inclusion/exclusion they only notice the other side as irrational despite them both being irrational.

You might have a point there on the latter, but come on - what reasons do you think you could give as to why someone shouldn't play against it?

If people don't defend FW, then we end up with perpetuated myths that are simply unfair, unfounded, and frankly, exclusionary in this community.

Some of the myths have basis in fact is the problem.

FW often has only two types of units; too efficient for their cost, or too inefficient for their cost.

FW often only has two types of units in another way; Imperial, Chaos. With imperial squarely first.

In summary FW adds unit entries to the two factions that need it least, the supposed variety is often just bad FW units that do similar to their codex equivalents, and then the few FW units which are Superior to their codex equivalents. Often when FW models are placed on the table it's only those few units which are more efficient than their codex equivalents, for factions that don't need the unit variety.

I like the idea of FW- I don't use FW entries but regularly play against them. The problem is that forgeworld is forgeworld. It has a separate design team that doesn't have the same insight into the codex/brb rules being a separate studio and all.

It should just be redone as a normal GW publication with a normal GW model range with normal regional availability if it wants to be taken seriously as part of the normal game.

Just so you know. The next time you list reasons for something, fact check first. Without forgeworld chaos has no flyer and no drop pods. Both are pretty much needed (drop pods not so much due to the horrendous cost). I'm not sure what other faction has no flyers but I'm willing to bet outside of GK,INQ and SoB everyone does, and GK and pals are one ally away from getting a flyer. Chaos is not. It has to have forgeworld.

Well, Chaos has the Heldrake.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, Chaos has the Heldrake.

Which lacks the Airborne and Supersonic rules, and therefore is a "Flyer" in the same way as a Land Speeder or Hammerhead Gunship. Though it does have the Flyer battlefield role, so actually it can't hold objectives either. *waves flag*

Table wrote:
Just so you know. The next time you list reasons for something, fact check first. Without forgeworld chaos has no flyer and no drop pods. Both are pretty much needed (drop pods not so much due to the horrendous cost). I'm not sure what other faction has no flyers but I'm willing to bet outside of GK,INQ and SoB everyone does, and GK and pals are one ally away from getting a flyer. Chaos is not. It has to have forgeworld.

GK were one of the first factions to have a flier made by GW.

So much for fact-checking

 Jidmah wrote:

Table wrote:
Just so you know. The next time you list reasons for something, fact check first. Without forgeworld chaos has no flyer and no drop pods. Both are pretty much needed (drop pods not so much due to the horrendous cost). I'm not sure what other faction has no flyers but I'm willing to bet outside of GK,INQ and SoB everyone does, and GK and pals are one ally away from getting a flyer. Chaos is not. It has to have forgeworld.

GK were one of the first factions to have a flier made by GW.

So much for fact-checking

In this thread:
A nitpick rebuttal actually reinforces the point of the quoted post!

 Jidmah wrote:

Table wrote:
Just so you know. The next time you list reasons for something, fact check first. Without forgeworld chaos has no flyer and no drop pods. Both are pretty much needed (drop pods not so much due to the horrendous cost). I'm not sure what other faction has no flyers but I'm willing to bet outside of GK,INQ and SoB everyone does, and GK and pals are one ally away from getting a flyer. Chaos is not. It has to have forgeworld.

GK were one of the first factions to have a flier made by GW.

So much for fact-checking

Got me there. But my point is even more valid. Check that fact (incase the emoticon was/is not enough, I'm being faux-salty.)

Table wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
For a thread asking if any other people see this kind of behaviour, it seems as if this has gotten into was way too overthetop argument about justification.
Stop there? I think you've exhausted the point now.

For some people on dakka inclusion of FW has to be militantly defended to the point of anyone not wanting to play with it is somehow a troll, TFG, or even worse.

It's like the left/right extremes of the political spectrum. Both extremes are so adamant about inclusion/exclusion they only notice the other side as irrational despite them both being irrational.

You might have a point there on the latter, but come on - what reasons do you think you could give as to why someone shouldn't play against it?

If people don't defend FW, then we end up with perpetuated myths that are simply unfair, unfounded, and frankly, exclusionary in this community.

Some of the myths have basis in fact is the problem.

FW often has only two types of units; too efficient for their cost, or too inefficient for their cost.

FW often only has two types of units in another way; Imperial, Chaos. With imperial squarely first.

In summary FW adds unit entries to the two factions that need it least, the supposed variety is often just bad FW units that do similar to their codex equivalents, and then the few FW units which are Superior to their codex equivalents. Often when FW models are placed on the table it's only those few units which are more efficient than their codex equivalents, for factions that don't need the unit variety.

I like the idea of FW- I don't use FW entries but regularly play against them. The problem is that forgeworld is forgeworld. It has a separate design team that doesn't have the same insight into the codex/brb rules being a separate studio and all.

It should just be redone as a normal GW publication with a normal GW model range with normal regional availability if it wants to be taken seriously as part of the normal game.

Just so you know. The next time you list reasons for something, fact check first. Without forgeworld chaos has no flyer and no drop pods. Both are pretty much needed (drop pods not so much due to the horrendous cost). I'm not sure what other faction has no flyers but I'm willing to bet outside of GK,INQ and SoB everyone does, and GK and pals are one ally away from getting a flyer. Chaos is not. It has to have forgeworld.

Your post makes zero sense.

Both drop pods and flyers are needed, yet many factions have neither and no one needs drop pods.

Fact check what? That the majority of FW entries are imperium followed by chaos, with imperium squarely first. Done, it's a fact.

blaktoof wrote:

Table wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
For a thread asking if any other people see this kind of behaviour, it seems as if this has gotten into was way too overthetop argument about justification.
Stop there? I think you've exhausted the point now.

For some people on dakka inclusion of FW has to be militantly defended to the point of anyone not wanting to play with it is somehow a troll, TFG, or even worse.

It's like the left/right extremes of the political spectrum. Both extremes are so adamant about inclusion/exclusion they only notice the other side as irrational despite them both being irrational.

You might have a point there on the latter, but come on - what reasons do you think you could give as to why someone shouldn't play against it?

If people don't defend FW, then we end up with perpetuated myths that are simply unfair, unfounded, and frankly, exclusionary in this community.

Some of the myths have basis in fact is the problem.

FW often has only two types of units; too efficient for their cost, or too inefficient for their cost.

FW often only has two types of units in another way; Imperial, Chaos. With imperial squarely first.

In summary FW adds unit entries to the two factions that need it least, the supposed variety is often just bad FW units that do similar to their codex equivalents, and then the few FW units which are Superior to their codex equivalents. Often when FW models are placed on the table it's only those few units which are more efficient than their codex equivalents, for factions that don't need the unit variety.

I like the idea of FW- I don't use FW entries but regularly play against them. The problem is that forgeworld is forgeworld. It has a separate design team that doesn't have the same insight into the codex/brb rules being a separate studio and all.

It should just be redone as a normal GW publication with a normal GW model range with normal regional availability if it wants to be taken seriously as part of the normal game.

Just so you know. The next time you list reasons for something, fact check first. Without forgeworld chaos has no flyer and no drop pods. Both are pretty much needed (drop pods not so much due to the horrendous cost). I'm not sure what other faction has no flyers but I'm willing to bet outside of GK,INQ and SoB everyone does, and GK and pals are one ally away from getting a flyer. Chaos is not. It has to have forgeworld.

Your post makes zero sense.

Both drop pods and flyers are needed, yet many factions have neither and no one needs drop pods.

Fact check what? That the majority of FW entries are imperium followed by chaos, with imperium squarely first. Done, it's a fact.

Drop pods were needed in 7th, less so now. The only way to get them is FW. Which factions have no flyers or ones they cannot ally in. I'm honestly asking because I don't own every codex. And yes, chaos needs a true flyer. Its a big hole in the army and heldrakes don't fill the bill due to lack of supersonic and -1 to hit. Trust me, id love for them to give us a flyer and pods (which we have plenty of in the lore) that are not forgeworld. But years have gone by since the loyalist got pods and GW doesn't seem fit to give them to us, because we have FW pods. Id love to have a complete army outside of FW.

Table wrote:
Got me there. But my point is even more valid. Check that fact (incase the emoticon was/is not enough, I'm being faux-salty.)

Oh, I never disagreed with you, I just wanted to pull your leg for telling someone to check their facts while not having checked your facts yourself
In 5th, only GK and BA had access to storm ravens, which caused a great outcry among all the other SM players, so it's really funny that people have forgotten about that.

The main reason why chaos and nids have no flyiers made by GW is because flying monstrous creatures used to be their version for fliers. With them going back to less stupid rules in 8th and the heldrake getting a weird "flyer but not a flyer" rule set, they simply don't have fliers any more.

But it really doesn't have a thing to do with forgeworld.

 Jidmah wrote:

Table wrote:
Got me there. But my point is even more valid. Check that fact (incase the emoticon was/is not enough, I'm being faux-salty.)

Oh, I never disagreed with you, I just wanted to pull your leg for telling someone to check their facts while not having checked your facts yourself
In 5th, only GK and BA had access to storm ravens, which caused a great outcry among all the other SM players, so it's really funny that people have forgotten about that.

The main reason why chaos and nids have no flyiers made by GW is because flying monstrous creatures used to be their version for fliers. With them going back to less stupid rules in 8th and the heldrake getting a weird "flyer but not a flyer" rule set, they simply don't have fliers any more.

But it really doesn't have a thing to do with forgeworld.

It was probably not a good way to phrase my challenge and my ribs have paid the price. I would really like to know the design teams reasons for CSM not getting drop pods (we have many in the lore). Only thing I can think of is because FW makes them. But it also could be that they think they have better things to do/make. Which is sad because for many many moons one of the huge things making CSM a low tier army was our total lack of delivery methods outside of Rhinos and Deep Striking. And for a "punchy" faction that is bad news (as evidenced by the years between the golden chaos codex and the end of 7th).

At least in the DG fluff, most of their vehicles are captured or salvaged from battlefields.
I imagine that there isn't much point in salvaging used drop pods.

Table wrote:

It was probably not a good way to phrase my challenge and my ribs have paid the price. I would really like to know the design teams reasons for CSM not getting drop pods (we have many in the lore). Only thing I can think of is because FW makes them. But it also could be that they think they have better things to do/make. Which is sad because for many many moons one of the huge things making CSM a low tier army was our total lack of delivery methods outside of Rhinos and Deep Striking. And for a "punchy" faction that is bad news (as evidenced by the years between the golden chaos codex and the end of 7th).

Gw hasn't gotten around for making model for them. No model, no rule.

The problem with FW is that it increases the toolbox available for TFG.
I dont turn down games for a few FW units, but I turn down games for "maximised units that makes for boring games", FW or GW. And FW's prices scares away most players, but not TFG that badly wants an edge. So even tho there is FW units that are way subpar, 9/10times you see a FW unit it is from the "best choices" of them.

And you all know the units tfg uses/abuses. 2+ fire raptors pre FAQ price adjustment. And now the 3 hellforged scorpius hiding out of sight, not to be moved for the entire game. Usually with a chaos lord babysitting them for rerolls. And of course they insists on lower floor blocking line of sight... Or 3 of what so happens to be the best unit from FW atm.
And those lists makes for dead boring games. For tournaments, sure. Go ahead, no judgement at all, whatever you are bringing. But for casual pickup games at your lgs, cmon, dont be that guy.

Anyhow. You can refuse games for any reason, but if it's for a single unit, then you are kind of an ass. Forgeworld or not. At least if you don't inform about that you refuse games against "a reason". But you can also not be an ass and tell people beforehand for a pickup game at the LGS if you are playing "competitive".
I have so far refused one game in 8th. A 1250pts pickup game against the Morty/Magnus tag team. Win or lose, that game would be a waste of time.

Well wrote:
The problem with FW is that it increases the toolbox available for TFG.
I dont turn down games for a few FW units, but I turn down games for "maximised units that makes for boring games", FW or GW. And FW's prices scares away most players, but not TFG that badly wants an edge. So even tho there is FW units that are way subpar, 9/10times you see a FW unit it is from the "best choices" of them.

And you all know the units tfg uses/abuses. 2+ fire raptors pre FAQ price adjustment. And now the 3 hellforged scorpius hiding out of sight, not to be moved for the entire game. Usually with a chaos lord babysitting them for rerolls. And of course they insists on lower floor blocking line of sight... Or 3 of what so happens to be the best unit from FW atm.
And those lists makes for dead boring games. For tournaments, sure. Go ahead, no judgement at all, whatever you are bringing. But for casual pickup games at your lgs, cmon, dont be that guy.

Anyhow. You can refuse games for any reason, but if it's for a single unit, then you are kind of an ass. Forgeworld or not. At least if you don't inform about that you refuse games against "a reason". But you can also not be an ass and tell people beforehand for a pickup game at the LGS if you are playing "competitive".
I have so far refused one game in 8th. A 1250pts pickup game against the Morty/Magnus tag team. Win or lose, that game would be a waste of time.

Yes TFG can abuse FW. Of course if he's smart TFG he abuses GW codex units. More powaaaah!

TFG abuses whatever he can. Taking away FW from TFG means TFG still min/maxes the GW stuff. The only change is that now its just GW stuff, which limits what you see on the table.

For me thats a big negative.

Well wrote:
The problem with FW is that it increases the toolbox available for TFG.
I dont turn down games for a few FW units, but I turn down games for "maximised units that makes for boring games", FW or GW. And FW's prices scares away most players, but not TFG that badly wants an edge. So even tho there is FW units that are way subpar, 9/10times you see a FW unit it is from the "best choices" of them.

And you all know the units tfg uses/abuses. 2+ fire raptors pre FAQ price adjustment. And now the 3 hellforged scorpius hiding out of sight, not to be moved for the entire game. Usually with a chaos lord babysitting them for rerolls. And of course they insists on lower floor blocking line of sight... Or 3 of what so happens to be the best unit from FW atm.
And those lists makes for dead boring games. For tournaments, sure. Go ahead, no judgement at all, whatever you are bringing. But for casual pickup games at your lgs, cmon, dont be that guy.

Anyhow. You can refuse games for any reason, but if it's for a single unit, then you are kind of an ass. Forgeworld or not. At least if you don't inform about that you refuse games against "a reason". But you can also not be an ass and tell people beforehand for a pickup game at the LGS if you are playing "competitive".
I have so far refused one game in 8th. A 1250pts pickup game against the Morty/Magnus tag team. Win or lose, that game would be a waste of time.

Frankly, expanding the toolbox in a game like this is never really a bad idea, aslong as it is within certain limitations.
Someone pointed at the Eldar Alaitoc -bs list build and complained about Sicarians, because Sicarians Ignore all negative BS modifications to rolls on FLY targets.
Considering that a Sicarian is fairly priced and a Relic unit (i.e. you need to take another unit of a specific slot) it is good but balanced. Hoewever it explicetly shines against that list. Meanwhile bog standard GW lists struggle to fight this Eldar Shenanigans.
Basically if you expand the toolbox you are more likely to find a counterplay. Especially against certain really specific lists like the Eldar list you literally need something like that. Frankly that Eldar build should not be able to even exist in my opinion.

I am going to try something the next time I get turned down for having two contemptors. Ill replace them with stock dreads IF I get to choose two of his units to ban. Tit for tat as they say.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Frankly, expanding the toolbox in a game like this is never really a bad idea, aslong as it is within certain limitations.
Someone pointed at the Eldar Alaitoc -bs list build and complained about Sicarians, because Sicarians Ignore all negative BS modifications to rolls on FLY targets.
Considering that a Sicarian is fairly priced and a Relic unit (i.e. you need to take another unit of a specific slot) it is good but balanced. Hoewever it explicetly shines against that list. Meanwhile bog standard GW lists struggle to fight this Eldar Shenanigans.
Basically if you expand the toolbox you are more likely to find a counterplay. Especially against certain really specific lists like the Eldar list you literally need something like that. Frankly that Eldar build should not be able to even exist in my opinion.

This is especially amusing to me, because Eldar themselves are home to the Dark Reaper, which does exactly the same thing. Ignore modifiers to hit and always land home on a 3+ in the shooting phase. As an Eldar player I can safely say that any Eldar player has no right to complain about other armies gaining access to ballistic skill ignoring war gear. Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

The more I play against Forgeworld stuff, the less I mind it. Is that Chaos Duel Butcher Cannon Array Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnaught scary? Yes. buts its not particularly worse than anything GW themselves has put out. After Chapter Approved 2017 came out and explicitly modified the Forgeworld prices in an official GW publication, it basically settled any argument as to whether these are available in a regular game of 40K, so let people have their fun.

Most of Forgeworlds releases may be Imperial and Chaos, but Xenos have some cool releases as well. Who wouldn't want a Squiggoth for their orcs??

 akaean wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Frankly, expanding the toolbox in a game like this is never really a bad idea, aslong as it is within certain limitations.
Someone pointed at the Eldar Alaitoc -bs list build and complained about Sicarians, because Sicarians Ignore all negative BS modifications to rolls on FLY targets.
Considering that a Sicarian is fairly priced and a Relic unit (i.e. you need to take another unit of a specific slot) it is good but balanced. Hoewever it explicetly shines against that list. Meanwhile bog standard GW lists struggle to fight this Eldar Shenanigans.
Basically if you expand the toolbox you are more likely to find a counterplay. Especially against certain really specific lists like the Eldar list you literally need something like that. Frankly that Eldar build should not be able to even exist in my opinion.

This is especially amusing to me, because Eldar themselves are home to the Dark Reaper, which does exactly the same thing. Ignore modifiers to hit and always land home on a 3+ in the shooting phase. As an Eldar player I can safely say that any Eldar player has no right to complain about other armies gaining access to ballistic skill ignoring war gear. Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

The more I play against Forgeworld stuff, the less I mind it. Is that Chaos Duel Butcher Cannon Array Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnaught scary? Yes. buts its not particularly worse than anything GW themselves has put out. After Chapter Approved 2017 came out and explicitly modified the Forgeworld prices in an official GW publication, it basically settled any argument as to whether these are available in a regular game of 40K, so let people have their fun.

Most of Forgeworlds releases may be Imperial and Chaos, but Xenos have some cool releases as well. Who wouldn't want a Squiggoth for their orcs??

A: Remember, certain people still belive that FW is seperate in any way or form to GW. What most people thend to forget is, that whilest all armies should specialise in some way or another, essential options aggainst fliers, skimmer, CQC, gunlines, artilery,etc should all be in the game as to provide a counterplay to a degree. Certainly not a hardcounter but there should be counterplay options aggainst certain unit types. F.e. i belive all armies should have access to ground based AA. All armies should get acceess to something like Fighters, even bombers to a degree.

B:That enemy of yours, which defacted the holy union of butchercannon+decimator shall be punished severly, nothing except the most sophisticated Decimator Daemonengine shall use the Butcher Autocannon. Btw mine is called Big Fritz, kinda like my baby in regards to my model collection.

(Actually that opens up an intersting question, do you suffer the moral debuff twice? or only if both guns kill something?)
C: Orks get comparatively a shitton of releases, if the Grot tanks weren't so god damn expensive and there would be a Grot HQ choice i would love to run a grot revolutionary army.