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Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





The fact that you have to lead from behind and hide heroes instead of having them lead the charge like in books or movies is something I have complained about (extensively) in the past.

The LOOK OUT SIR rule they implemented is not fully what I would have implemented, but I see it as throwing a bone and a compromise.

I will say that I create tables that have varied landscapes and terrain and that the key is making sure the table is broken up enough where your guys aren't taking 100% of the enemy ranged attack power every turn.

I will say that with the forest line of sight blocking change (very positive change in my opinion) and with the look out sir, and with the fact that missile troops can no longer shoot out of their combat if they are engaged, that these things combined make it not as bad as it was pre 2.0.

I've actually had no unreasonable issues with character sniping with 2.0 because its not as simple a task as it was pre 2.0.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

auticus wrote:
I will say that with the forest line of sight blocking change (very positive change in my opinion)


I'd be more interested with the forest change if it didn't create Schrödinger's Vampire.

Let's say I have a foot vampire with Flying Horror. Well, since he can fly, he's now completely incapable of hiding in forests.

So, is he just assumed to be flying all the time, even when it makes no sense for him to do so? I have to assume so, otherwise he'd surely be able to hide like a normal foot hero.

Okay, so if he's constantly flying then he muse at least be immune to melee, right? Nope. Apparently, even though he's apparently flying above the treeline, regular infantry have no issue attacking him with swords.

Fantastic. So we have a vampire that is simultaneously flying above a forest and also standing on the ground, depending on which one is the least advantageous to him.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 vipoid wrote:
auticus wrote:
I will say that with the forest line of sight blocking change (very positive change in my opinion)


I'd be more interested with the forest change if it didn't create Schrödinger's Vampire.

Let's say I have a foot vampire with Flying Horror. Well, since he can fly, he's now completely incapable of hiding in forests.

So, is he just assumed to be flying all the time, even when it makes no sense for him to do so? I have to assume so, otherwise he'd surely be able to hide like a normal foot hero.

Okay, so if he's constantly flying then he muse at least be immune to melee, right? Nope. Apparently, even though he's apparently flying above the treeline, regular infantry have no issue attacking him with swords.

Fantastic. So we have a vampire that is simultaneously flying above a forest and also standing on the ground, depending on which one is the least advantageous to him.


Look, the infantry with swords are clearly all Marbo, which is how they are capable of jumping over the tree line.
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 13:09:53


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Skillful Swordmaster





West Lafayette, IN

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.



This needs to be the slogan on EVERY AoS release from here on out. At the very least, it needs to be my sig. Permission?

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Just Tony wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.



This needs to be the slogan on EVERY AoS release from here on out. At the very least, it needs to be my sig. Permission?


Yeah, go for it.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Ghaz wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
In AoS Skrittclaw is a bog standard Warlord with a Warpstone blade. No magic armour, no ratogre mount, no ward save. Not only is he now as generic as they come, he is also incredibly vulnerable to sniping thanks to the "if I can see one tiny bit of your characters bannerpole I can snipe him even through a few hundred clanrats".

Have you read the 2nd edition rules?

Not fully I admit, but from what I have seen they have done little to fix the major issues or to make the game any less shallow.

LOOK OUT, SIR!

You must subtract 1 from hit rolls made for missile weapons if the target of the attack is an enemy HERO that is within 3" of an enemy unit that has 3 or more models. The Look Out, Sir! rule does not apply if the target HERO is a MONSTER.

Thats..... It? That is pathetic, especially given how powerful some of the shooting units in this game are and how poorly most character models are armoured. Unless you are a toughness monster your hero is still going to be pincushioned as soon as they enter range. If my Warlord is behind 50+ Clanrats then there is no way you should be shooting him with your archers, those 50+ bodies should block line of sight.
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably moreso infact.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 master of ordinance wrote:
LOOK OUT, SIR!

You must subtract 1 from hit rolls made for missile weapons if the target of the attack is an enemy HERO that is within 3" of an enemy unit that has 3 or more models. The Look Out, Sir! rule does not apply if the target HERO is a MONSTER.

Thats..... It? That is pathetic, especially given how powerful some of the shooting units in this game are and how poorly most character models are armoured. Unless you are a toughness monster your hero is still going to be pincushioned as soon as they enter range. If my Warlord is behind 50+ Clanrats then there is no way you should be shooting him with your archers, those 50+ bodies should block line of sight.

Well, I think it was a reaction to what 40K had to deal with. There was a lot of a thing called "confusion" regarding it, so I think they were trying to down it down between nothing and 40K's. On the other hand, in pure proportion, there are far fewer ranged weapons in AoS than in 40K.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably more so in fact.

Which is ironic, since in WHFB, they were usually in front which is where a lot of non-arcing shooting hit first...

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
LOOK OUT, SIR!

You must subtract 1 from hit rolls made for missile weapons if the target of the attack is an enemy HERO that is within 3" of an enemy unit that has 3 or more models. The Look Out, Sir! rule does not apply if the target HERO is a MONSTER.

Thats..... It? That is pathetic, especially given how powerful some of the shooting units in this game are and how poorly most character models are armoured. Unless you are a toughness monster your hero is still going to be pincushioned as soon as they enter range. If my Warlord is behind 50+ Clanrats then there is no way you should be shooting him with your archers, those 50+ bodies should block line of sight.

Well, I think it was a reaction to what 40K had to deal with. There was a lot of a thing called "confusion" regarding it, so I think they were trying to down it down between nothing and 40K's. On the other hand, in pure proportion, there are far fewer ranged weapons in AoS than in 40K.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably more so in fact.

Which is ironic, since in WHFB, they were usually in front which is where a lot of non-arcing shooting hit first...


Except if a unit has more than 5 models you can't hit the character. If the unit is reduced to less than 5 models you have to allocate shots, and even then the character gets Look out Sir. Pg 99.
Its assumed that some grunt will always get the way of fire and that its not easy to pick out the character in a crowd.
Killing characters with shooting was not easy, unless they were by themselves in the open.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/12 23:58:20


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Charistoph wrote:

Well, I think it was a reaction to what 40K had to deal with. There was a lot of a thing called "confusion" regarding it, so I think they were trying to down it down between nothing and 40K's. On the other hand, in pure proportion, there are far fewer ranged weapons in AoS than in 40K.


Just a point, but they could have simply made the penalty for shooting at characters harsher. Surely a -2 or -3 modifier wouldn't have been any more confusing than a -1 modifier?

It might also have been nice if you just had to be within 3" of any friendly unit, so that a character can actually hide behind monsters and other large models.

In terms of the confusion relating to 40k's system:
- Whether or not a character can hide is dependant on their Wounds value. However, this tends to only have a flimsy connection to a model's actual size. So we have a situation where Guilliman is invisible if he's standing behind a line of guardsmen that barely come up to his waist. Or, in the case of Necrons, you can have two near-identical vehicles (one is a character, the other isn't). One of them is invisible when floating behind a line of warriors, the other can be freely shot.
- The character doesn't have to be hiding at all - there just has to be a closer unit somewhere. So, in the above case, you might be unable to shoot Guilliman because you can't pick him out from the line of guardsmen in the other direction.
- Whilst the character doesn't have to be hiding, the closer unit can freely hide. Indeed, it's possible that Guilliman can be standing out in the open, but you still can't shoot him because you can't distinguish him from the unit of guardsmen that are completely out of sight.

One feels that 40k was perhaps a little too eager to protect its characters.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





The thing in AOS is that the game is entirely about characters and how they stack buffs on your models, so characters not able to be hurt easily set some people off.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

auticus wrote:
The thing in AOS is that the game is entirely about characters and how they stack buffs on your models, so characters not able to be hurt easily set some people off.


Surely it works both ways though?

I can appreciate that having completely untargetable characters could be frustrating - but so is having characters that are effortlessly sniped and which you can do almost nothing to protect.

Let's take the aforementioned Winged Vampire Lord:
- To start off with, his basic defensive stats are awful, being no better than those of an ordinary human in armour (and worse than many comparable units). 5 wounds is about as low as it gets without being a demi-hero, and a 4+ save is nothing to write home about.
- Next, he has no special abilities to improve his defence. At most, he can regain some wounds (which is irrelevant if the opponent does the sensible thing and one-rounds him), but he has nothing to stop him actually taking damage.
- Further, outside of specific artefacts in specific armies, he can't buy anything to keep him safe. Even something as basic as a shield is apparently too much to ask.
- Next, in terms of placement, he can't meaningfully hide behind any units. It doesn't matter how much stuff is in front of him, so long as an opponent can see even the tiniest fraction of his cape, they can shoot him. And if he tries to hide behind a monster then he doesn't even get the pitiful LoS bonus.
- He can't hide behind a forest because he has the Fly keyword.
- The only thing he can do is prey that there is piece of terrain that is large and bulky enough to completely conceal him from the enemy army, yet not so bulky as to interfere with the movement of the infantry that the vampire lord is supposed to buff. And then I have to hope that there are more of these magical terrain pieces further up the board so that my Vampire Lord can keep up with his infantry without just being instantly sniped.

TLR My issue is not with the possibility of heroes being sniped - my issue is that there are basically no countermeasures I can take to prevent it.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in be
Raging Rat Ogre






As weird (or even harsh) as it may sound if it bothers you that much:


Yes... that's exactly the point now in AoS 2.0. that you CANNOT be 100% sure your heroes are safe ALL THE TIME. But you can force your opponent to take a horribly inefficient move by dedicating a lot of firepower over a minor foot solder hero.

IF you could, this game would be BROKEN AF for certain factions, LoN first and foremost.

AoS' ranged units are quite expensive for their actual damage output compared to most melee units (or incredibly swingy at best) and to have those units shoot at reduced efficiency is always a trade-off. One you can force your opponent into in a LoN list, because a LoN regeneration for none hero models is pretty bonkers.

And that's not even mentioning that LoN has moves that can shut shooting down (or force them to target units in melee range) with a bit of luck turn 1 once you get more of the intricacies of the army down.

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Elmir wrote:
Yes... that's exactly the point now in AoS 2.0. that you CANNOT be 100% sure your heroes are safe ALL THE TIME.


Yep, just keep burning that straw man. I think there are a few patches left that aren't quite ashes yet.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

In AoS you are supposed to not bring just one of those foot heroes. You can of course. But your general is supposed to be some big beasty boi, or at least some very durable dude.

A Vampire is a support character. But that does not mean that it can't work alone and as your general. It absolutely can.

Your find that those monstrous armies that snipe characters left and right without any effort with a ton of powerfull shooting attacks and mortal wounds and magic are much less abundant and common that you may think. As Elmir said, actually, thats true in AoS, shooting units pay a price for being shooty, and they have (now) a good bunch of drawbacks. Of course you'll have the boogeyman like Skyfires, but they have been nerfed into a balanced state.
Playing agaisnt those lists is like playing vs a imperial soup of imperial guard+ba+Imperial Knight. Are they popular? Yes. Do they exist? Of course. Do you encounter them regularly outside tournaments? That will depend of your local meta.

In my case, I don't encounter them unless I go to a proper big tournament. So I have 0 problems running Doombulls and other squisy heroes, because most of my enemy shooting is short ranged, or more of a support role, or their magic isn't that powerfull. So basically, yeah.

As with everything: In a casual setting, everything works. Just as like 40k, if you want very powerfull builds, you'll find them. The real question here is. Are the rest of your group looking for those very powerfull builds?
And no, it does not cut the "It where just the models I like", just like nobody makes a Ynnari soup with DE and a Craftowlr Eldar for doom because "he liked the models"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/13 20:49:31


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Galas wrote:
In AoS you are supposed to not bring just one of those foot heroes. You can of course. But your general is supposed to be some big beasty boi, or at least some very durable dude.


Yeah, that's why I'm a little sad about Vampire Lords getting stomped down to 'ordinary human in basic armour'. It used to be that they were the durable ones.


 Galas wrote:

A Vampire is a support character. But that does not mean that it can't work alone and as your general. It absolutely can.

Your find that those monstrous armies that snipe characters left and right without any effort with a ton of powerfull shooting attacks and mortal wounds and magic are much less abundant and common that you may think. As Elmir said, actually, thats true in AoS, shooting units pay a price for being shooty, and they have (now) a good bunch of drawbacks. Of course you'll have the boogeyman like Skyfires, but they have been nerfed into a balanced state.
Playing agaisnt those lists is like playing vs a imperial soup of imperial guard+ba+Imperial Knight. Are they popular? Yes. Do they exist? Of course. Do you encounter them regularly outside tournaments? That will depend of your local meta.


I keep hearing conflicting opinions on this.

Some people are saying 'yeah, foot infantry are fine, barely any armies have the tech to snipe them', whilst others say 'if you move a foot hero a millimetre out of LoS-blocking terrain, he's dead'.


 Galas wrote:

In my case, I don't encounter them unless I go to a proper big tournament. So I have 0 problems running Doombulls and other squisy heroes, because most of my enemy shooting is short ranged, or more of a support role, or their magic isn't that powerfull. So basically, yeah.

As with everything: In a casual setting, everything works. Just as like 40k, if you want very powerfull builds, you'll find them. The real question here is. Are the rest of your group looking for those very powerfull builds?


*I'm* not looking for those powerful builds but I've no idea what my group will be using. If they're running more competitive stuff then there isn't a whole lot I can do about that, aside from shrugging my shoulders, sweeping up my heroes with a dustpan and brush, and going back to 40k.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

 vipoid wrote:


I keep hearing conflicting opinions on this.

Some people are saying 'yeah, foot infantry are fine, barely any armies have the tech to snipe them', whilst others say 'if you move a foot hero a millimetre out of LoS-blocking terrain, he's dead'.


Reality is probably somewhere between the two. Also note that if your opponent is spending all their time sniping your hero then they are not using those ranged attacks on your infantry; so sure your hero might go down, but then bam the rank and file will hit into them fast.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Overread wrote:
Reality is probably somewhere between the two. Also note that if your opponent is spending all their time sniping your hero then they are not using those ranged attacks on your infantry; so sure your hero might go down, but then bam the rank and file will hit into them fast.


But, for LoN, isn't that much worse? Since the infantry are heavily reliant on the heroes for regeneration and support.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

Most armies are reliant in their heroes. Khorne, for example. I had problems running them before 2.0 because yeah, heroes where snipped left and right the moment the opponend had a little of quality shooting power.

But now... this is not like 40k. Shooting units aren't putting out 50 dice (Unless they were savage ork arrow boyz in the kunnin ruk formation, good times), they have a worse to hit (normally), they have less damage and less rend (of course saves are also worse here), and the biggest range shooting is normally 18-24". Bolter range.
And now that shooting units can't shoot outside their own combat? Na. I don't find snniping characters to be a problem.

I use a couple of marauder Horsemen in my khorne list to tie up the enemy shooting. If they get the charge, they don't shot my heroes. If they don't, then that means the enemy will need to shoot them down or they will be unable to shoot the next turn.


 Overread wrote:
 vipoid wrote:


I keep hearing conflicting opinions on this.

Some people are saying 'yeah, foot infantry are fine, barely any armies have the tech to snipe them', whilst others say 'if you move a foot hero a millimetre out of LoS-blocking terrain, he's dead'.


Reality is probably somewhere between the two. Also note that if your opponent is spending all their time sniping your hero then they are not using those ranged attacks on your infantry; so sure your hero might go down, but then bam the rank and file will hit into them fast.


It is as easy as the level of competitiveness you are playing. Auticus, or people that go to big competitive tournaments, will find that heroes are snipped left and right with shooting and magic. But then in those kind of enviroments you also find lists summoning 600-800 points a game or dishing out 30-50 mortal wounds a turn. Your heroes being snipped are not the biggest of your problems.

I'm luck to not play in an enviroment like that one. I understand not everybody is that lucky. Thats why my recomendation, Vipoid, is to wait and see how are gonna play, and in what are interested the people you are gonna play with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/13 23:25:23


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I run at most 1 monster character and usually 4-5 foot characters in almost every army I play.

In LoN specifically I never leave home without a Vampire Lord and 2 Necromancers. They are fragile sure, but the force multiplication they provide (magic, the ability to dispel magic, healing on summonable units, extra attacks granted by the VL) are immense.

If there was no possible way to pick them out, they would need a massive points hike to compensate.
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably more so in fact.

Which is ironic, since in WHFB, they were usually in front which is where a lot of non-arcing shooting hit first...

In front in model form only. It was repeatedly stated that WHFB had a lot of abstraction in it, and typically you assumed there where still a few bods in front of the hero, or he threw someone before him as an arrow shield.

vipoid wrote:
auticus wrote:
The thing in AOS is that the game is entirely about characters and how they stack buffs on your models, so characters not able to be hurt easily set some people off.


Surely it works both ways though?

Apparently not

I can appreciate that having completely untargetable characters could be frustrating - but so is having characters that are effortlessly sniped and which you can do almost nothing to protect.

Let's take the aforementioned Winged Vampire Lord:
- To start off with, his basic defensive stats are awful, being no better than those of an ordinary human in armour (and worse than many comparable units). 5 wounds is about as low as it gets without being a demi-hero, and a 4+ save is nothing to write home about.

Oh gods this, this 10000 times over. Non-meta (IE non monster/monster mounted) heroes are squishy as hell these days. In the case of Skaven its 'Take Verminlord or Grey Seer on Screaming Bell of Thanquol or go home"

- Next, he has no special abilities to improve his defence. At most, he can regain some wounds (which is irrelevant if the opponent does the sensible thing and one-rounds him), but he has nothing to stop him actually taking damage.
- Further, outside of specific artefacts in specific armies, he can't buy anything to keep him safe. Even something as basic as a shield is apparently too much to ask.
TLR My issue is not with the possibility of heroes being sniped - my issue is that there are basically no countermeasures I can take to prevent it.

And this too. In WHFB Warlord Skrittclaw could take magic armour, a shield and a Ratogre mount to give himself a good AS, and a Foul Pendant or something else for a WS. In AoS he has his base save of 4+ and 5 wounds annnnnddddd....... That is it. Unless you go for the Clan Shield in which case you get a 3+ save against Damage 1 attacks, which is..... Meh, still. Especially as most attacks are Damage 2 or dx or something, and Mortal wounds and Rend outright invalidate saves anyway. and he cannot recover lost wounds.
Not only have we lost customisation, we have also lost staying power.

Elmir wrote:As weird (or even harsh) as it may sound if it bothers you that much:

Not harsh, just plain slowed.


Yes... that's exactly the point now in AoS 2.0. that you CANNOT be 100% sure your heroes are safe ALL THE TIME.

I think you mean "at all" there. There is almost no way to avoid Character sniping.

But you can force your opponent to take a horribly inefficient move by dedicating a lot of firepower over a minor foot solder hero.

5 wounds, 4+ save? So instead of pegging a unit of mooks for a turn my opponent can murder my Warlord, and then just let the crappy morale system destroy my units by inflicting a few of wounds on them. Good to know.

IF you could, this game would be BROKEN AF for certain factions, LoN first and foremost.

Your implying this is not a broken game already? just look back through this thread, hell just look at this last train of conversation. That you cannot feasibly take a non-ubamaxpowersupersayan character as your general and hope for them to last past the first round of shooting, even if there is an intervening unit, should say it all.

AoS' ranged units are quite expensive for their actual damage output compared to most melee units (or incredibly swingy at best)

..... Such a pity players have to pay to be able to kebab characters or blow away low morale melee units with impunity. Do not forget you can shoot through your own guys now, even with direct-fire weapons.

and to have those units shoot at reduced efficiency is always a trade-off.

Reduced Efficiency? What part of "You kill the hero in X armies and the entire thing crumbles" do you not you get?

One you can force your opponent into in a LoN list, because a LoN regeneration for none hero models is pretty bonkers.

Its like a barn in here with all the straw.

And that's not even mentioning that LoN has moves that can shut shooting down

Soooooo..... One or two very specific builds that are inefficient at everything else?

(or force them to target units in melee range) with a bit of luck turn 1 once you get more of the intricacies of the army down.

If only you could lock a shooting unit down by meleeing it..... If only they could not fire out of combat.... If only there where a better game were all of these major issues where addressed....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
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 master of ordinance wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably more so in fact.

Which is ironic, since in WHFB, they were usually in front which is where a lot of non-arcing shooting hit first...

In front in model form only. It was repeatedly stated that WHFB had a lot of abstraction in it, and typically you assumed there where still a few bods in front of the hero, or he threw someone before him as an arrow shield.

vipoid wrote:
auticus wrote:
The thing in AOS is that the game is entirely about characters and how they stack buffs on your models, so characters not able to be hurt easily set some people off.


Surely it works both ways though?

Apparently not

I can appreciate that having completely untargetable characters could be frustrating - but so is having characters that are effortlessly sniped and which you can do almost nothing to protect.

Let's take the aforementioned Winged Vampire Lord:
- To start off with, his basic defensive stats are awful, being no better than those of an ordinary human in armour (and worse than many comparable units). 5 wounds is about as low as it gets without being a demi-hero, and a 4+ save is nothing to write home about.

Oh gods this, this 10000 times over. Non-meta (IE non monster/monster mounted) heroes are squishy as hell these days. In the case of Skaven its 'Take Verminlord or Grey Seer on Screaming Bell of Thanquol or go home"

- Next, he has no special abilities to improve his defence. At most, he can regain some wounds (which is irrelevant if the opponent does the sensible thing and one-rounds him), but he has nothing to stop him actually taking damage.
- Further, outside of specific artefacts in specific armies, he can't buy anything to keep him safe. Even something as basic as a shield is apparently too much to ask.
TLR My issue is not with the possibility of heroes being sniped - my issue is that there are basically no countermeasures I can take to prevent it.

And this too. In WHFB Warlord Skrittclaw could take magic armour, a shield and a Ratogre mount to give himself a good AS, and a Foul Pendant or something else for a WS. In AoS he has his base save of 4+ and 5 wounds annnnnddddd....... That is it. Unless you go for the Clan Shield in which case you get a 3+ save against Damage 1 attacks, which is..... Meh, still. Especially as most attacks are Damage 2 or dx or something, and Mortal wounds and Rend outright invalidate saves anyway. and he cannot recover lost wounds.
Not only have we lost customisation, we have also lost staying power.

Elmir wrote:As weird (or even harsh) as it may sound if it bothers you that much:

Not harsh, just plain slowed.


Yes... that's exactly the point now in AoS 2.0. that you CANNOT be 100% sure your heroes are safe ALL THE TIME.

I think you mean "at all" there. There is almost no way to avoid Character sniping.

But you can force your opponent to take a horribly inefficient move by dedicating a lot of firepower over a minor foot solder hero.

5 wounds, 4+ save? So instead of pegging a unit of mooks for a turn my opponent can murder my Warlord, and then just let the crappy morale system destroy my units by inflicting a few of wounds on them. Good to know.

IF you could, this game would be BROKEN AF for certain factions, LoN first and foremost.

Your implying this is not a broken game already? just look back through this thread, hell just look at this last train of conversation. That you cannot feasibly take a non-ubamaxpowersupersayan character as your general and hope for them to last past the first round of shooting, even if there is an intervening unit, should say it all.

AoS' ranged units are quite expensive for their actual damage output compared to most melee units (or incredibly swingy at best)

..... Such a pity players have to pay to be able to kebab characters or blow away low morale melee units with impunity. Do not forget you can shoot through your own guys now, even with direct-fire weapons.

and to have those units shoot at reduced efficiency is always a trade-off.

Reduced Efficiency? What part of "You kill the hero in X armies and the entire thing crumbles" do you not you get?

One you can force your opponent into in a LoN list, because a LoN regeneration for none hero models is pretty bonkers.

Its like a barn in here with all the straw.

And that's not even mentioning that LoN has moves that can shut shooting down

Soooooo..... One or two very specific builds that are inefficient at everything else?

(or force them to target units in melee range) with a bit of luck turn 1 once you get more of the intricacies of the army down.

If only you could lock a shooting unit down by meleeing it..... If only they could not fire out of combat.... If only there where a better game were all of these major issues where addressed....


Units can't shoot out of combat. They can only shoot at units they are engaged with. Also 1" of forests is a complete line of sight block unless flyers are involved. Regular blocking terrain also exists. And the -1 to hit for look out sir is pretty huge since most shooters hit on 4+. If you want more than that, take the Gryph Feather Charm for an additional -1 to hit (both for melee and shooting).

By far most weapons in the game are damage 1 and rend -. Rend -1 troops are generally semi elite. Rend 2 is very rare. One of the scariest shooting units in the game is Skyfires. They get 1 shot each, hit on 4+, wound on 3+, rend -1, D3 damage, D3 mortals if they roll a nat 6 to hit. You get 3 for 200 points. Assuming you made a mistake leaving your foot character out in the open completely unsupported, if 6 of them laid into him with his 3+ save, 3 of them would hit. One of those 3 would be a 6 dealing an average of 2 mortal wounds. The remaining 2 average 1.2 wounds, against which you would have a 50% chance to save. With your character being played horribly, it would take 400 points of one of the best shooting units in the game 2 full turns to kill just him. If you are standing in cover (bringing you to a 2+ save) OR benefiting from look out sir, it would take 3 full turns on average. The the 3 turns is only made possible due to their mortal wounds ability, if it were not for that you would have over a 70% chance to suffer no damage from them on average rolls, 80% if you have both cover and look out sir.
   
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Nevermind. I re-read and saw that you were discussing a scenario without Look Out, Sir!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/14 14:19:48


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 master of ordinance wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably more so in fact.

Which is ironic, since in WHFB, they were usually in front which is where a lot of non-arcing shooting hit first...

In front in model form only. It was repeatedly stated that WHFB had a lot of abstraction in it, and typically you assumed there where still a few bods in front of the hero, or he threw someone before him as an arrow shield.

Sometimes it was abstraction, sometimes not. Aside from the Skaven, Characters were required to lead from the front to benefit the unit. In several editions, this exposed them to incoming attacks, both ranged and melee, and allowed them to attack in return. Later on, they could attack, but Wounds against the unit pulled from the rear instead of being allocated to the front. Either way, if you are in front enough to attack, you are in front enough to BE attacked, which doesn't help you when a wall of musket fire hits you. But then, officers were usually on the side of the unit with the non-com equivalents being actually in the unit.

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 Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably more so in fact.

Which is ironic, since in WHFB, they were usually in front which is where a lot of non-arcing shooting hit first...

In front in model form only. It was repeatedly stated that WHFB had a lot of abstraction in it, and typically you assumed there where still a few bods in front of the hero, or he threw someone before him as an arrow shield.

Sometimes it was abstraction, sometimes not. Aside from the Skaven, Characters were required to lead from the front to benefit the unit. In several editions, this exposed them to incoming attacks, both ranged and melee, and allowed them to attack in return. Later on, they could attack, but Wounds against the unit pulled from the rear instead of being allocated to the front. Either way, if you are in front enough to attack, you are in front enough to BE attacked, which doesn't help you when a wall of musket fire hits you. But then, officers were usually on the side of the unit with the non-com equivalents being actually in the unit.


The key is in the name: Look out sir means a heroic soldier gave a last minute warning cry, or pushed the character aside at the very last minute or shielded him with his body taking the arrow/bullet/whatever for his commander.

It was worded exactly like that in the rulebook.

You have to keep in mind WHFB was much more abstract than 40K. A single mini would represent 20 to 100 actual soldiers, so the character was actually much smaller than it looks on the tabletop.

   
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I've slowly over the past six weeks or so moved to the standpoint where the target audience of AOS is more the original audience of warmachine. The game is a gamey game, abstraction is king, and the pieces are nothing more than pawns to accomplish a mathematical function of some type regardless of if it doesn't "make sense" from a real world physics situation.

Realism, the battle representing something akin to real world physics, etc... really have no place in the AOS target audience desires.

Thats either something one can deal with and accept and have fun with, or really you'll want to look at other games that provide a less gamey game approach to the rules where the pieces are still pawns but function as you'd expect in a battle rooted in our own world.

Lord of the Rings is a really solid system as is Kings of War for fantasy gaming in those regards. Also WHFB 6th edition was a solid representation of this (and the author of Kings of War was the primary rules dev of whfb 6th edition) if you can find the books and players.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/15 13:03:00


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
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auticus wrote:
I've slowly over the past six weeks or so moved to the standpoint where the target audience of AOS is more the original audience of warmachine.


I was (originally) quite baffled that for a game system that took so many pages out of warmahordes, they had chosen to package it as the total opposite of a competitive ruleset.

Of course GW eventually realised where the money was.

   
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Yeah. I currently consider Age of Sigmar to be essentially warmahordes the second coming as penned by games workshop.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
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AoS and by extension 8th ed 40k is the perfection of the "roll some dice, remove some models" mechanic that GW has been gunning for, for quite some time. By perfection I mean that they have streamlined it so much there is basically nothing else to it.
   
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jouso wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Age of Sigmar is not a 'block infantry' game. A model shouldn't be immune to shooting just because he's behind a unit if he can be seen.

This is a problem in itself, but still a dense mob of bods should block LoS just as well as a ranked formation, probably more so in fact.

Which is ironic, since in WHFB, they were usually in front which is where a lot of non-arcing shooting hit first...

In front in model form only. It was repeatedly stated that WHFB had a lot of abstraction in it, and typically you assumed there where still a few bods in front of the hero, or he threw someone before him as an arrow shield.

Sometimes it was abstraction, sometimes not. Aside from the Skaven, Characters were required to lead from the front to benefit the unit. In several editions, this exposed them to incoming attacks, both ranged and melee, and allowed them to attack in return. Later on, they could attack, but Wounds against the unit pulled from the rear instead of being allocated to the front. Either way, if you are in front enough to attack, you are in front enough to BE attacked, which doesn't help you when a wall of musket fire hits you. But then, officers were usually on the side of the unit with the non-com equivalents being actually in the unit.


The key is in the name: Look out sir means a heroic soldier gave a last minute warning cry, or pushed the character aside at the very last minute or shielded him with his body taking the arrow/bullet/whatever for his commander.

It was worded exactly like that in the rulebook.

You have to keep in mind WHFB was much more abstract than 40K. A single mini would represent 20 to 100 actual soldiers, so the character was actually much smaller than it looks on the tabletop.

And you are missing the point. It is ironic that the Characters in the very front of a Rank and File could get that Look Out, Sir! so well, but they can't when the Character is separated behind them. Being in front is the most dangerous position in battle. The front rank is almost guaranteed to die. Yet, grunts can jump/get pulled in to the way to save the Character. Being behind another unit offers a lot of safety from attack, but it is actually easier to hit them. There in lies the irony.

jouso wrote:
auticus wrote:
I've slowly over the past six weeks or so moved to the standpoint where the target audience of AOS is more the original audience of warmachine.

I was (originally) quite baffled that for a game system that took so many pages out of warmahordes, they had chosen to package it as the total opposite of a competitive ruleset.

Of course GW eventually realised where the money was.

Aside from dropping Rank and File, removing the Characters joining units rules, and putting unique rules on the unit's cards, how is AoS like WMH? The amount of rules in WMH is closer to WHFB with the number of rules and interactions than with AoS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/15 17:01:59


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* movement is not restricted or very minimally restricted and 360 degrees

* the game hinges on powerful heroes popping buffs at the right time

* the game hinges heavily on deckbuilding skills and synergy spamming

* the game has no ranks and is skirmish based 100% in its movements

* characters are independent and cannot be part of units

* units all have their own magic the gathering style card with their own unique rules as opposed to universal rules

* the game is designed by a tournament oriented development group and the company focuses heavily on the tournament aspect of the game and promotes heavily the tournament aspect of the game

* the game's balance at the tournament level is the primary focus of the development group, with a kind of page-5 mentality among the fans for dealing with imbalances outside of the tournament level


This isn't to say that AOS *is* warmachine. This is to say that it feels that the developers wanted to build a tournament-centric game and directly compete with warmahordes so borrowed heavily from its structure and created their version of it.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
 
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