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Switching subfactions is also not always a matter of chasing the flavour of the month, it just adds variety to the game making it more healthy.
I hate playing more than 3-4 times with the same list for example; if I didn't have a large collection of models and I couldn't switch kulturs I'd be pretty bored with playing the same army over and over again. Having more choices is always better, especially if those additional choices don't involve buying new models or books.
In 2020 I've played Deathskullz, Goffs (before the new Ghaz), Bad Moons, Boomboyz and Tin Eadz. None of them won GTs or have been flavour of the month.
If you can narrow it down to a specific subfaction, then the subfaction is too strong, not the faction itself.
"Space Marines are OP and it is a waste of time playing with them" in 8th edition did not hold true if your regular opponent switched between Black Templar, Space Wolves and Blood Angel because he enjoyed melee oriented lists.
Iron Hands / Imperial Fists castles? Fit the description way better.
Generalisation or leaving out details leaves the impression to people that the faction as a whole is problematic, when in reality you can have exciting and fun games as well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/27 06:59:05
a_typical_hero wrote: If you can narrow it down to a specific subfaction, then the subfaction is too strong, not the faction itself.
"Space Marines are OP and it is a waste of time playing with them" in 8th edition did not hold true if your regular opponent switched between Black Templar, Space Wolves and Blood Angel because he enjoyed melee oriented lists.
Iron Hands / Imperial Fists castles? Fit the description way better.
Generalisation or leaving out details leaves the impression to people that the faction as a whole is problematic, when in reality you can have exciting and fun games as well.
Just from a gut feeling, the actual sub-faction for marines doesn't actually matter that much. I have Dark Angels, Ultramarine, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves and Crimson Fists(usually switching chapter trait to fit list) as regular opponents. The space wolf player heavily leans into their army specific units like TWC, wulfen, wolfguard, a bunch of characters and almost no primaris, so it actually feels like a unique (though weak) army. However, because it's so weak he currently is painting up primaris units...
The others are just a pile of primaris in different colors that are sometimes supported by some old classics like dreads, terminators, predators, TF cannons, devastators and the like. One or two special characters, units like DA knights or two or three stratagems does not transform them into a completely different army.
5th edition chapter masters with their "terminators/bikes/sternguard are troops now" rules had a much bigger impact on their army than the supplements as a whole do now.
In your example, the change comes from playing an assault oriented list, not from picking different chapter tactics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 08:58:10
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
a_typical_hero wrote: While I agree with your more detailed analyses that the change in playstyle is the more important factor in the power shift, it is not the only one.
A Blood Angels shooty castle would have lost to Iron Hands shooty castles 10 out of 10 times, if both lists would be mirrored in 8th edition.
So the sub faction choice does matter to some degree.
Its never 10 out of 10 in a game with dice. The Iron Hands are statistically likely to do better than the Blood Angels - but that doesn't mean it will happen.
This might sound like a mean and obtuse put down - but I don't think it is. Forums tend to take this "if X is better, it wins 100%" - which isn't usually true - and it then sort of warps the thinking of how the game works.
Space Marines are great because their core engine is so solid. Even with points increases, you get a lot of offensive and defensive power for your points compared with other armies.
Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Stratagems etc add to this - but unless its old Ynnari level upgrade, or some lynchpin special character only one chapter can take, its rarely these things that's determine how the army performs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 09:57:38
a_typical_hero wrote: If you can narrow it down to a specific subfaction, then the subfaction is too strong, not the faction itself.
"Space Marines are OP and it is a waste of time playing with them" in 8th edition did not hold true if your regular opponent switched between Black Templar, Space Wolves and Blood Angel because he enjoyed melee oriented lists.
Iron Hands / Imperial Fists castles? Fit the description way better.
Generalisation or leaving out details leaves the impression to people that the faction as a whole is problematic, when in reality you can have exciting and fun games as well.
Ehhhh... Even marine melee lists can be pretty damn frustrating. We've got a white scars army in my area that I really really wish people could have fun playing against, because it is fething stellar, like the single best army to look at and see and the guy who plays it is incredibly incredibly nice, but he's basically had to switch to tyranids because playing vs white scars feels like you're teleported back in time to that obnoxious early-8th meta where the turn 1 deep strike charges were just everywhere and everything. If you go second vs the list, you have 2 dreadnoughts, 2 squads of incursors, and like 10 bikers and a smash captain in melee with your army blendering you before you get to take a single move.
The problem with marines currently is that they used to be a mobile mechanized mid-range shooting army, which is by nature the most flexible and "fair" seeming army type in the game to fight (at least, in my experience, people tend to prefer facing armies that have some infantry, some tanks, some characters, don't shove everything all into one type of offense, and their stuff moves around the board and tries to play to the objectives).
With the addition of primaris stuff and the current meta, they've shifted to become either a massive turn 1 alpha strike that can and does do massive, massive damage to you before you get to take a single move if you lose the first turn roll, or a completely static, unmoving gunline that stacks up a bunch of reroll buffs and tries to table you Tau-style.
Obviously, marines are hugely flexible, and you can have people building things in a more balanced way, but the more meta units are all tailored to one of those two playstyles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/27 11:27:37
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
a_typical_hero wrote: While I agree with your more detailed analyses that the change in playstyle is the more important factor in the power shift, it is not the only one.
A Blood Angels shooty castle would have lost to Iron Hands shooty castles 10 out of 10 times, if both lists would be mirrored in 8th edition.
So the sub faction choice does matter to some degree.
But at any point that BA player can just say "These are now my Red Iron Hands space marines" and use there rules without having to buy an entire new army line. Which is kind of the point. If your chosen flavor of SMs sucks you can always just say they are another flavor. With Orkz or other lists you can't just say "Well these are now Ultramarines". The most I can do is say that my uniquely painted army is now one of the different Kultures. But if the codex sucks in general across the board its irrelevant, where as SM players have Several codex's to pull from and hope at least 1 is competitive.
a_typical_hero wrote: While I agree with your more detailed analyses that the change in playstyle is the more important factor in the power shift, it is not the only one.
A Blood Angels shooty castle would have lost to Iron Hands shooty castles 10 out of 10 times, if both lists would be mirrored in 8th edition.
So the sub faction choice does matter to some degree.
But at any point that BA player can just say "These are now my Red Iron Hands space marines" and use there rules without having to buy an entire new army line. Which is kind of the point. If your chosen flavor of SMs sucks you can always just say they are another flavor. With Orkz or other lists you can't just say "Well these are now Ultramarines". The most I can do is say that my uniquely painted army is now one of the different Kultures. But if the codex sucks in general across the board its irrelevant, where as SM players have Several codex's to pull from and hope at least 1 is competitive.
Disagree, they shift their chapter choice to leverage rules, people aren't tracking results of paint jobs after all. Just because several rules variants are all marines, doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered in turn to spot which is the problem (if one is).
To highlight the issue, if goffs won 9/10 tourneys and you played deffskullz which only places bottom 10%, would you be happy to say "orks are fine"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/28 18:58:25
a_typical_hero wrote: While I agree with your more detailed analyses that the change in playstyle is the more important factor in the power shift, it is not the only one.
A Blood Angels shooty castle would have lost to Iron Hands shooty castles 10 out of 10 times, if both lists would be mirrored in 8th edition.
So the sub faction choice does matter to some degree.
But at any point that BA player can just say "These are now my Red Iron Hands space marines" and use there rules without having to buy an entire new army line. Which is kind of the point. If your chosen flavor of SMs sucks you can always just say they are another flavor. With Orkz or other lists you can't just say "Well these are now Ultramarines". The most I can do is say that my uniquely painted army is now one of the different Kultures. But if the codex sucks in general across the board its irrelevant, where as SM players have Several codex's to pull from and hope at least 1 is competitive.
Come October, all space marines will be playing out of one Codex, so I guess GW is fixing your problem
Dudeface wrote: To highlight the issue, if goffs won 9/10 tourneys and you played deffskullz which only places bottom 10%, would you be happy to say "orks are fine"?
Yes, that's exactly how it works for non-marines. Specifically Semper has been complaining about how his Evil Suns speed freeks have not been performing well in 8th, and the general response to his complaints was that spamming boyz, smasha guns, loota star and SAG meks were winning tournaments.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
a_typical_hero wrote: While I agree with your more detailed analyses that the change in playstyle is the more important factor in the power shift, it is not the only one.
A Blood Angels shooty castle would have lost to Iron Hands shooty castles 10 out of 10 times, if both lists would be mirrored in 8th edition.
So the sub faction choice does matter to some degree.
But at any point that BA player can just say "These are now my Red Iron Hands space marines" and use there rules without having to buy an entire new army line. Which is kind of the point. If your chosen flavor of SMs sucks you can always just say they are another flavor. With Orkz or other lists you can't just say "Well these are now Ultramarines". The most I can do is say that my uniquely painted army is now one of the different Kultures. But if the codex sucks in general across the board its irrelevant, where as SM players have Several codex's to pull from and hope at least 1 is competitive.
Come October, all space marines will be playing out of one Codex, so I guess GW is fixing your problem
They can always give Marine players a 3 volume Codex with all the rules from PA and all the other supplements. They could even release it as a collectors edition with a new Lieutenant.
a_typical_hero wrote: While I agree with your more detailed analyses that the change in playstyle is the more important factor in the power shift, it is not the only one.
A Blood Angels shooty castle would have lost to Iron Hands shooty castles 10 out of 10 times, if both lists would be mirrored in 8th edition.
So the sub faction choice does matter to some degree.
But at any point that BA player can just say "These are now my Red Iron Hands space marines" and use there rules without having to buy an entire new army line. Which is kind of the point. If your chosen flavor of SMs sucks you can always just say they are another flavor. With Orkz or other lists you can't just say "Well these are now Ultramarines". The most I can do is say that my uniquely painted army is now one of the different Kultures. But if the codex sucks in general across the board its irrelevant, where as SM players have Several codex's to pull from and hope at least 1 is competitive.
Come October, all space marines will be playing out of one Codex, so I guess GW is fixing your problem
One codex and ten supplements. Not the same thing.
Jidmah wrote:
Dudeface wrote: To highlight the issue, if goffs won 9/10 tourneys and you played deffskullz which only places bottom 10%, would you be happy to say "orks are fine"?
Yes, that's exactly how it works for non-marines. Specifically Semper has been complaining about how his Evil Suns speed freeks have not been performing well in 8th, and the general response to his complaints was that spamming boyz, smasha guns, loota star and SAG meks were winning tournaments.
Which is annoying, and why gw needs to give other factions the same kind of internal balance in their codexes as loyalists have. Xenos players don't like being told that having a single build that works, regardless of whether or not it fits their particular subfaction, makes them perfectly fine, and Chaos players are sick of being told "you can always just play soup".
SemperMortis wrote:But at any point that BA player can just say "These are now my Red Iron Hands space marines" and use there rules without having to buy an entire new army line. Which is kind of the point. If your chosen flavor of SMs sucks you can always just say they are another flavor. With Orkz or other lists you can't just say "Well these are now Ultramarines". The most I can do is say that my uniquely painted army is now one of the different Kultures. But if the codex sucks in general across the board its irrelevant, where as SM players have Several codex's to pull from and hope at least 1 is competitive.
Dudeface wrote:Disagree, they shift their chapter choice to leverage rules, people aren't tracking results of paint jobs after all. Just because several rules variants are all marines, doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered in turn to spot which is the problem (if one is).
To highlight the issue, if goffs won 9/10 tourneys and you played deffskullz which only places bottom 10%, would you be happy to say "orks are fine"?
Yeah I'm with Dudeface here, because this happens to non-Marine armies all the time and it's really frustrating.
'Why are you complaining about [faction]? [faction] does really well in tournaments. Look, it's got one whole build, using [not your subfaction]. Just rebuild your army to take these must-have units, and run them as [not your subfaction] and you're good to go.'
A Blood Angels player shouldn't have to strip out all the melee elements of their force and play them as Imperial Fists just because the writers have decided that shooty Marines are great and melee Marines suck. Just as an Iyanden player shouldn't have to leave their Wraith units on the shelf and play Alaitoc flyers just because that's the meta hotness, and clearly Eldar are fine because that one build is good. I can absolutely understand the frustration at hearing what amounts to a Marine-themed variant on 'You're complaining Eldar are weak? They do great in tournaments!'. People should be able to play the subfaction they collected.
It's all just one Space Marine codex anyways, even with the supplements factored in. The non-codex-compliant spinoffs having enough unique units that you have to either ditch them or do some tortuous counts-as to stuff them back into the main codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/28 21:35:48
Icegoat wrote: Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.
allow me to sum up my response in one rhetorical question:
Xenos players are supposed to compete?
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Disagree, they shift their chapter choice to leverage rules, people aren't tracking results of paint jobs after all. Just because several rules variants are all marines, doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered in turn to spot which is the problem (if one is).
sounds lame to me, but then again, chasing the dragon has only ever worked in the game of Heroin Hero.
2020/08/30 07:56:09
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.
Serious answer. Exactly the same way they were before when all the Competitive Space Marines used 2 wound Primaris models. Now the 2 wound models will be a quarter inch shorter. Sometimes they might even have different weapons. How many Tactical marines did you see in a competitive list in the last 3 years? Intercessors, Incursors, Scouts even, they all made it into lists, but regular marines..... heck no. Scouts are not getting two wounds. Why is everyone treating this as anything other than letting folks play with their old models a few more years before 'consolidating' marine entries to remove some 'redundant' ones.
I'm not saying some Xenos don't need work. I'm saying this change made almost no difference in how competitive Xenos are. What the game really needs is a giant nerf to Leviathans, and a smaller nerf to Contemptors.
2020/08/30 08:07:34
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.
Serious answer. Exactly the same way they were before when all the Competitive Space Marines used 2 wound Primaris models. Now the 2 wound models will be a quarter inch shorter. Sometimes they might even have different weapons. How many Tactical marines did you see in a competitive list in the last 3 years? Intercessors, Incursors, Scouts even, they all made it into lists, but regular marines..... heck no. Scouts are not getting two wounds. Why is everyone treating this as anything other than letting folks play with their old models a few more years before 'consolidating' marine entries to remove some 'redundant' ones.
I'm not saying some Xenos don't need work. I'm saying this change made almost no difference in how competitive Xenos are. What the game really needs is a giant nerf to Leviathans, and a smaller nerf to Contemptors.
Agree. It will just be old models instead primaris stuff, the only thing that's going to be mildly annoying is double wound devs.
The only thing that has me slightly concerned is the implication that the new improved weapon profiles will be applied without point changes. Whether that will happen, we don't know yet.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/08/30 08:20:20
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.
Serious answer. Exactly the same way they were before when all the Competitive Space Marines used 2 wound Primaris models. Now the 2 wound models will be a quarter inch shorter. Sometimes they might even have different weapons. How many Tactical marines did you see in a competitive list in the last 3 years? Intercessors, Incursors, Scouts even, they all made it into lists, but regular marines..... heck no. Scouts are not getting two wounds. Why is everyone treating this as anything other than letting folks play with their old models a few more years before 'consolidating' marine entries to remove some 'redundant' ones.
I'm not saying some Xenos don't need work. I'm saying this change made almost no difference in how competitive Xenos are. What the game really needs is a giant nerf to Leviathans, and a smaller nerf to Contemptors.
You mean loyalist leviathans and contemptors right? Because the csm leviathan already has an inferior invul (5++ vs loyalists 4++) for the same price, and the csm contemptor has a worse armor save (3+ vs loyalists 2+), 2 less wounds, and no 6+++, once again, for the same price.
2020/08/30 08:36:40
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.
Serious answer. Exactly the same way they were before when all the Competitive Space Marines used 2 wound Primaris models. Now the 2 wound models will be a quarter inch shorter. Sometimes they might even have different weapons. How many Tactical marines did you see in a competitive list in the last 3 years? Intercessors, Incursors, Scouts even, they all made it into lists, but regular marines..... heck no. Scouts are not getting two wounds. Why is everyone treating this as anything other than letting folks play with their old models a few more years before 'consolidating' marine entries to remove some 'redundant' ones.
I'm not saying some Xenos don't need work. I'm saying this change made almost no difference in how competitive Xenos are. What the game really needs is a giant nerf to Leviathans, and a smaller nerf to Contemptors.
You mean loyalist leviathans and contemptors right? Because the csm leviathan already has an inferior invul (5++ vs loyalists 4++) for the same price, and the csm contemptor has a worse armor save (3+ vs loyalists 2+), 2 less wounds, and no 6+++, once again, for the same price.
Lol spike tax...strikes again??? Huh, for some reason I thought the FW line didn't show any blatant favouritsm.
The Qarnakh Dynasty - Starting Again From scratch...Once again
kirotheavenger wrote: People like straws, and they're not willing to give any up even as the camel begins to buckle.
What do you expect?
Btw butcher cannons up but sm cannon down.
Nothing to See here .
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Eldar 
Imperial Guard 
Space Marines
The Bloody Sails 
