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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Preface: I still think the Venom hull and their associated Cannon costs are too high to make them viable competition for Raiders for battleline duty.

They have a role, especially in a PT splash in. But its not for super poison (though it's certainly not a drawback).

It's for the combination of being easy to hide (relatively, as far as Drukhari boats go), decent delivery vectors for Grisly Trophies and 5-man Incubi / Kabalite action monkey squads / Wyches, and (most importantly) the PT redeploy. They're utility pieces, not bits to rely on to do significant damage.
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




yea its really hard for me to consider splinter cannon venoms. They cost way too much for very little gain, being heavy three kinda sucks while damage 2 is ok I feel like it should have been more shots instead of more damage.

 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Oh, another transport related question - are there any Wych Cults that offer good bonuses for transports?

I ask because I've noticed that the main reason I'm taking Kabals at all is for a single Trueborn unit and because they're the only subfaction that seems to get decent bonuses for transports (e.g. better poison for Venoms from PT, rerolls to hit or wound for Dark Lances from BH/OR).

Just wondered if there's a Wych Cult that gives useful transport bonuses (or useful stratagem access or such) that I'm forgetting about?


Luthon1234 wrote:
yea its really hard for me to consider splinter cannon venoms. They cost way too much for very little gain, being heavy three kinda sucks while damage 2 is ok I feel like it should have been more shots instead of more damage.


I think Venoms just need to be cheaper. Even with Raiders getting a price increase, 75pts for a Venom (and that's without the extra cannon) seems like way too much for a vehicle with almost half the wounds and transport capacity, along with a far less useful gun. It seems like 75pts would be a reasonable price for the double-cannon version (so 65 base).

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






other than small stuff, like +1 to charge rolls for Cult of Strife transports, theres not that much for transports in wych cults.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The +1Str and MW bounceback from Cursed Blade is fun, but realistically you're not going to have anything that can compare to the Kabal bonuses or the Dark Creed spooktacular aura.
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

You know i feel like i liked my old list you guys called "casual" before. I had a decent run vs necrons. That said i need more melee or overall anti-infantry weaponry. I did kill the leader of the necrons by the end of my turn 2 which was also his warlord and got the 10 pts for it. I think i either need shredder scourge units or incubi. I'm not sure what to think of the void ravens at this point. They're still fun for the bombs tho.

I've been told by someone that the chapter approved changed so little it's not even really worth buying it.

@sterling191: Yeah i should probably try out cursed blade. Thing is i've been a bit negatively impacted by wych cults in the past. I've never used any of the hellions i got from the old reavers+hellions box set because they were bad until our latest codex. I also feel like even though reavers are fast they were expensive in points. I might try hellions or reavers again but i just don't know. Now that bladevanes aren't a set str 4 i suppose they could be fun.

Honestly if i have to go melee i might just prefer incubi. I have to buff bloodbrides hardcore to approach being as good as incubi and incubi don't need any sub-faction to be used.

It's hard to say as i could use the speed of reavers or hellions to reach melee quickly but i don't imagine they do enough while in it.

Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wyches do their work by weight of dice and rerolls, while also being excruciatingly useful disruptor units. Incubi are largely pure blenders, unless you're going MSU plus leadership debuffs to tee up their Tormentors.

I personally find there's a place for both in lists, but if you're going hard into Kabals then Incubi are what you bring.

Likewise, both Reavers and Hellions are great. They're perhaps not as point efficient as Incubi or Wyches, but their mobility, quality shooting (Reavers w/ special weapons) and hellaciously choppy anti-elite melee (Hellions) will do right by you. Plus the ability to snipe out characters with Eviscerating Flyby. They're fragile, and will likely die the turn after they go in, but if done correctly you can tie up the bulk of an opponents force for a turn because they're a threat that just have to be dealt with.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Out of interest, how much mileage to you guys get out of the Cursed Blade Mortal Wound bounce ability?

Or, if anyone uses it, the CB Warlord trait that bounces Mortal Wounds on a 4+.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Honestly i wanted to make a CB warlord trait succubus but im just not sure its worth what id want. I suppose the 6++ bounce works for all wych cult since we start turn 1 with the 6++ armywide now.

I also kind of want to use a cronos or 2 for that stratagem that boosts a unit near a cronos to turn 5 power from pain on a unit of incubi or reavers or something. I'm not sure how well it'd work but it sounds fairly costly in points. Maybe I'll try it out eventually.

-----
Btw vipoid are ya going to reply to my dm or should I write a shorter one. I tend to write way too much in forums.

Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I also kind of want to use a cronos or 2 for that stratagem that boosts a unit near a cronos to turn 5 power from pain on a unit of incubi or reavers or something. I'm not sure how well it'd work but it sounds fairly costly in points. Maybe I'll try it out eventually.


IMO the Cronos stratagem is going to be most effective with Talos and Grotesques. Getting them to 5++/5+++ early on (especially if you can combine it with -1 damage) will make them pretty hard to shift.

That said, Cronos are pretty cheap and you can put them into non-Coven detachments, so there's probably not much harm shoving one into a list with Reavers or Incubi if you've got ~80pts spare.


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Btw vipoid are ya going to reply to my dm or should I write a shorter
one. I tend to write way too much in forums.


I haven't forgotten, just kept getting tied up with other stuff (and there's quite a bit to reply to ). I'll try and write back soon.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, how much mileage to you guys get out of the Cursed Blade Mortal Wound bounce ability?

Or, if anyone uses it, the CB Warlord trait that bounces Mortal Wounds on a 4+.


Surprisingly a lot. I use a succubus with shardnet/impaler, precision blows, and traitor's embrace relic (cause D3+3 mortals to unit that killed her in close combat on a 2+) to snipe enemy characters. She has become my go-to anti-Drukhari model too. She wipes out Drazhar and incubi with ease, while the mortal wounds blast right through archons, succubi, and haemonculi. Rolling a couple 6's before she dies just helps assure that she kills the enemy character/incubi.

The 6's mortal wounds come up a lot on wyches, making an already cost-effective model even more beneficial. The warlord trait on a 4+ is less useful, mostly because if you are taking hits in close combat, you are probably dead. But it isn't bad on a 2nd suicide succubus.

Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, how much mileage to you guys get out of the Cursed Blade Mortal Wound bounce ability?

Or, if anyone uses it, the CB Warlord trait that bounces Mortal Wounds on a 4+.


Surprisingly a lot. I use a succubus with shardnet/impaler, precision blows, and traitor's embrace relic (cause D3+3 mortals to unit that killed her in close combat on a 2+) to snipe enemy characters. She has become my go-to anti-Drukhari model too. She wipes out Drazhar and incubi with ease, while the mortal wounds blast right through archons, succubi, and haemonculi. Rolling a couple 6's before she dies just helps assure that she kills the enemy character/incubi.

The 6's mortal wounds come up a lot on wyches, making an already cost-effective model even more beneficial. The warlord trait on a 4+ is less useful, mostly because if you are taking hits in close combat, you are probably dead. But it isn't bad on a 2nd suicide succubus.


Oh that's very interesting.

I've certainly toyed with the idea of a suicide-Succubus but wondered if the Traitor's Embrace was more of a gimmick. Great to know that it not only works but is very effective.

Also good advice about Treacherous Deceiver probably not being worth it. I'd been toying with the idea and wondering if it could be made to work - maybe using Parasite's Kiss to regain some of the wounds she'd inevitably lose - but I imagine I'd just end up throwing good points after bad.

That said, it's interesting that you suggest it might be decent on a second suicide-Succubus . . . mainly because I regard *all* my characters as being suicide units.

Anyway, cheers for the advice.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Couldn't you just not make the succubus the warlord but do that stratagem that gives a warlord trait to like one hq in every detachment so she reflects on a 4+. Then combine it with the final wounds finisher with treacherous deceiver. Sure she'll go down fast but everything important is gonna die with her.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 05:28:10


Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Couldn't you just not make the succubus the warlord but do that stratagem that gives a warlord trait to like one hq in every detachment so she reflects on a 4+. Then combine it with the final wounds finisher with treacherous deceiver. Sure she'll go down fast but everything important is gonna die with her.


Yeah, I use the suicide succubus all the time (with shardnet+impaler obviously) she's fun but builds that allow her to just...kill her target are usually easier.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Couldn't you just not make the succubus the warlord but do that stratagem that gives a warlord trait to like one hq in every detachment so she reflects on a 4+. Then combine it with the final wounds finisher with treacherous deceiver. Sure she'll go down fast but everything important is gonna die with her.


Maybe I'm just looking at it weirdly but I see it as two different strategies:

With Treacherous Deceiver, you want her to succeed saves so that she can dish out more Mortal Wounds. On average, you'd expect her to inflict 1 mortal wound for every wound she takes. So if she loses all 5 wounds, you can expect her to have inflicted 4-5 Mortal Wounds on the enemy. However, if she takes 3 wounds (dealing 3 Mortal Wounds in the process) and then you regain them with Parasite's Kiss or something, you can potentially deal another 3 Mortal Wounds as the enemy whittles her back down to 2. Similarly, there's a great deal of value in rerolling failed saves with her as this also opens up the potential for more Mortal Wounds.

In contrast, with the Traitor's Embrace, you want her to fail saves so that she can take out the enemy along with herself. You could maybe argue that there's value in keeping her alive for a bit, so that she can try and inflict more melee damage, but to my mind that just increases the risk of an opponent dealing with her outside of combat (and thus completely negating the risk of mortal wounds when she dies).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the above Succubus with Parasite's Kiss is a good strategy. Maybe it could be fun if you want to try something a little different (they're only 60pts, after all). My point is more that a Treacherous Deceiver Succubus benefits from regaining lost wounds, whilst a Traitor's Embrace Succubus probably wants to expedite her death.


Actually, a thought occurs to me. You get to pick which save you use, right? So if you have a Traitor's Embrace Succubus and you want to make sure she dies at the right time, could you choose to use her 6+ armour save (even against weapons that would negate it entirely)?

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

So, recently played my friends who's bringing deathguard blightlords and deathshroud bricks with Morty.

For reference, here's the list I brought, which is my attempt in build as TAC as possible:
Spoiler:
PGL (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [107 PL, 2,000pts, 9CP]
Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [48 PL, 865pts, 10CP]
Rules: Poisoned Weapon

Configuration [12CP]
Battle Size [12CP]
Selections: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari)

Obsession
Selections: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose

HQ
Archon
Selections: Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Consummate Weaponmaster, Overlord, Soulheim, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition [-1CP]

Troops
3x Kabalite Warrior 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
Sybarite Selections: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

3x Kabalite Warrior 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
Sybarite Selections: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

3x Kabalite Warrior 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
Sybarite Selections: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Elites
4x Incubi
Klaivex

4x Incubi
Klaivex

Heavy Support
Ravager, Selections: Bladevanes, 3x Disintegrator cannon

Dedicated Transport
Raider, Selections: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider, Selections: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider, Selections: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari)

Obsession
Selections: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose: Flawless Workmanship

HQ
Succubus, Selections: 1 - Adrenalight (Combat Drug), Precision Blows, Stratagem: Tolerated Ambition [-1CP], The Triptych Whip

Troops
3x Kabalite Warrior 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
Sybarite Selections: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

3x Kabalite Warrior 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
Sybarite Selections: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

3x Kabalite Warrior 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon: Blaster
Sybarite Selections: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari)

Obsession
Selections: The Dark Creed: Distillers of Fear

HQ
Drazhar, Selections: Hatred Eternal, The Executioner's Demiklaives, Warlord

Troops
Acothyst, Selections: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade
Wrack w/ Special Weapon, Selections: Liquifier Gun, Wrack Blade
3x Wracks

Elites
Beastmaster, Selections: 4 - Painbringer (Combat Drug), Agoniser, Splinter Pods

Grotesques
6x Grotesque w/ Liquifier Gun

Fast Attack

3x Clawed Fiend
2x Clawed Fiend

Dedicated Transport
Venom, Selections: Bladevanes, Coven, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon
Venom, Selections: Bladevanes, Coven, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon
Venom, Selections: Bladevanes, Coven, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

We played one of the new CA2021 missions where all the objectives were in no man's land. Which put him at a disadvantage as he was hoofing it across the board. Needless to say, it didn't go well for him.

But, I want to point out a strategy that I think its worth discussing and to see if there are some optimization opportunities. Remember I want to try to build my list as Take All Comers as possible.

It's the Dark Creed Obsession + Grisly Trophies for -3LD debuff and stacking mortal wounds via Phantasm Grenade Launcher. (note, PGL need to beat the target's LD to mortal wound)

I have 9 PGL units in this list and in this game I lost one unit to morty(the raider), I got one venom within 3" of morty to bring his leadership down to 9 via the dark creed obsession (his aura shuts off the grisly trophy). The rest of PGL unit (8 left at the time) was in range and that weapon did 7 mortal wounds (he fnp 2 of them). Not too shabby, right?

Against his 10 man blight lord unit, I did get another venom within 3", but had only 6 units I believe in PGL range, which brought down that unit's leadership to 6. I rolled for decent number of shots, and was able to do 6 mortal wounds (2 models worth) before my other shooting were brought to bear. I think that's pretty dang good against deathguard.

My question to you all, my dark cohorts, is what is going to be the best delivery method to reduce leaderships in Dark Creed detachment? Do you think my use of venoms (three in this list) is good idea?

What about groteques? I nearly lost the whole squad due to combined shooting... is it worth having them as a liquifier threat and the -1 LD debuff? (I'm on the fence, but man, liquifiers are still pretty good despite the Technomancer nerf).

Any other units/combos that I'm missing?

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Venoms seem like a good idea in terms of getting those Ld debuffs where you need them (especially since they also want to get close to make use of Grizzly trophies). Not sure I'd take the second Splinter Cannon on them, though.

Another unit you could consider is the Cronos. It's quite cheap, relative to its toughness, and one of the few Coven units that benefits from the +1 to hit even after turn 3.

As for Grotesques, IMO Liquifiers aren't worth it after the DT nerf (they're okay on Wracks but I wouldn't take them elsewhere).

Also, might it be worth splitting them into 2 units of 3? That way you can spread the Ld debuff further.


In terms of other stuff in your list:

- It's weird seeing an Archon without Trueborn. Don't know if I'm in the minority here but IMO Trueborn are the sole purpose of Archons in 9th. If I'm not taking Trueborn I wouldn't even take a Kabal detachment at all. Hence, I'd highly recommend combining two Kabalite squads into one Trueborn squad and adding a Dark Lance (especially in Obsidian Rose).

- Following on from the above, I'm not sure about the Kabalite spam. Again, each to their own, but for me (and I say this as someone who endlessly spammed Kabalites throughout 8th) Kabalites just seem a bit . . . crap. Our other troops received significant buffs in 9th, yet Kabalites are still wielding the same piss-poor water pistols they were in 8th (and bear in mind that this is after the mainline troops had their survivability doubled against basic weapons).

5 OR Kabalite Warriors with a Blaster and PGL is 55pts. You get one Blaster shot with a reroll to wound (which is nice) and then 8 S2 AP0 D1 Poison 4+ shots at 15" (4 shots at 30"). The range is nice, sure, but even in optimum range those poison shots aren't averaging even a single wound on a Marine.
In contrast:
5 CB Wyches with Grave Lotus, a Blast Pistol and PGL is 60pts. You get one Blast Pistol shot (with a much shorter range and no reroll) but then you get 4 S2 AP0 D1 Poison 4+ pistol shots and then 21 S5 AP-1 D1 melee attacks plus the potential for Mortal Wounds plus the potential to trap enemies in melee.

It's up to you, of course, but I know which option I'd want to spam.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Keep in mind that Wych PGLs *must* go on the same model that carries a Blast Pistol. That means you can only ever fire one each round. Shave the points and keep the pistol back at the spire. You're rarely going to shoot it on foot (since you're almost certainly advancing to optimize charges), and with a 6" range you're unlikely to be cooking it off from the deck of a transport.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 23:27:57


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Sterling191 wrote:
Keep in mind that Wych PGLs *must* go on the same model that carries a Blast Pistol. That means you can only ever fire one each round. Shave the points and keep the pistol back at the spire. You're rarely going to shoot it on foot (since you're almost certainly advancing to optimize charges), and with a 6" range you're unlikely to be cooking it off from the deck of a transport.


That's a fair point. I was trying to go for the closest comparison but you're right, if you're taking a PGL it might be worth leaving the Blast Pistols (though I suppose it also depends whether you've got anything else to spend those points on).

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




True, having a 5 point per MSU Wych squad refund isn't necessarily going to redefine a list, but it may be the difference between putting another special weapon onto a squad or slotting another vehicle upgrade onto a Raider / Venom.

Absolutely right that it'll be list dependent though.
   
Made in us
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pontiac, michigan; usa

@vipoid: I get your mindset and i don't really disagree when it comes to trueborn. I still use dark lance ravagers myself and the void ravens dark scythes and meme void mine (which in multiples is actually really solid against enemy units spread around hero auras and for character killing) but haven't really been using warriors if i can go with trueborn. The 2+ to hit and no modifiers ever is quite insane.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 01:34:54


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Made in gb
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The dark behind the eyes.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
@vipoid: I get your mindset and i don't really disagree when it comes to trueborn. I still use dark lance ravagers myself and the void ravens dark scythes and meme void mine (which in multiples is actually really solid against enemy units spread around hero auras and for character killing) but haven't really been using warriors if i can go with trueborn. The 2+ to hit and no modifiers ever is quite insane.


That's fair. Kabal seems to bring by far the best vehicle buffs, so if you're leaning towards our tanks or fliers I can see them being worth it for those purposes (if I'm taking a Kabal detachment, I'll try and get all the dedicated transports for my entire list into it ).

Regarding Trueborn, BS2+ is nice but for me the real kicker is the Dark Lance. It used to be that Blasters and Dark Lances were equal but now the latter is vastly better, and so the ability to take one and fire it without the movement penalty is (IMO) what really makes Trueborn shine.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

I really appreciate ya'lls perspective here...
 vipoid wrote:
Venoms seem like a good idea in terms of getting those Ld debuffs where you need them (especially since they also want to get close to make use of Grizzly trophies). Not sure I'd take the second Splinter Cannon on them, though.

Yeah, it's their speed is why I chosen them. I think you're right about the 2nd splinter cannon though, just really doesn't seem like it's worth it.

Another unit you could consider is the Cronos. It's quite cheap, relative to its toughness, and one of the few Coven units that benefits from the +1 to hit even after turn 3.

Okay, I'm intrigued.

As for Grotesques, IMO Liquifiers aren't worth it after the DT nerf (they're okay on Wracks but I wouldn't take them elsewhere).

Also, might it be worth splitting them into 2 units of 3? That way you can spread the Ld debuff further.

Even w/o the old DT buff, liquifiers are probably the best cheap flamer-type weapon on the game.

It's value now is the -2AP. It's cheap enough to spam AND it's a counter to certain horde lists. Remember I'm trying to build out a TAC list...

But to your point, splitting them into 2 units is definitely worth considering.
In terms of other stuff in your list:

- It's weird seeing an Archon without Trueborn. Don't know if I'm in the minority here but IMO Trueborn are the sole purpose of Archons in 9th. If I'm not taking Trueborn I wouldn't even take a Kabal detachment at all. Hence, I'd highly recommend combining two Kabalite squads into one Trueborn squad and adding a Dark Lance (especially in Obsidian Rose).

I was trying to maximize the number of PGL shots, hence why I opted for 2x warriors in Raider for a 3D3 PGL unit. However, 1 less PGL in favor of a Truborn unit is definitely worth considering.

- Following on from the above, I'm not sure about the Kabalite spam. Again, each to their own, but for me (and I say this as someone who endlessly spammed Kabalites throughout 8th) Kabalites just seem a bit . . . crap. Our other troops received significant buffs in 9th, yet Kabalites are still wielding the same piss-poor water pistols they were in 8th (and bear in mind that this is after the mainline troops had their survivability doubled against basic weapons).

5 OR Kabalite Warriors with a Blaster and PGL is 55pts. You get one Blaster shot with a reroll to wound (which is nice) and then 8 S2 AP0 D1 Poison 4+ shots at 15" (4 shots at 30"). The range is nice, sure, but even in optimum range those poison shots aren't averaging even a single wound on a Marine.
In contrast:
5 CB Wyches with Grave Lotus, a Blast Pistol and PGL is 60pts. You get one Blast Pistol shot (with a much shorter range and no reroll) but then you get 4 S2 AP0 D1 Poison 4+ pistol shots and then 21 S5 AP-1 D1 melee attacks plus the potential for Mortal Wounds plus the potential to trap enemies in melee.

It's up to you, of course, but I know which option I'd want to spam.

The way I look at it, is that a 2x 5-man warrior squad with 2x blasters and PGL in a Raider+PGL is a unique "mini-me" Ravager, especially with the Obsidian Rose obsession. I'd have 3 chances to reroll the wound die in that "unit".

I do like your points regarding CB Wyches. I can either drop the incubis for wyches and/or swap out a Raider w/ warriors with a Raider w/ wyches.

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Sorry, I think I phrased my comments about the Liquifier Gun a little poorly.

It's not that I think it's a bad gun, it's that I think it's a bad gun on Grotesques. Mainly because of the opportunity cost.

On Wracks it's a fantastic gun as you're getting it in addition to your melee weapons. However, on Grotesques, you have to give up your best melee weapon to get the gun. I'd much rather keep the D2 melee attacks and leave the liquifier gun for Wracks.


As for Warriors, I totally get what you're saying. Hell, I used the same tactic back in 8th as I liked having pseudo-Ravagers that turned into 10-man squads (with 2/3 the firepower plus poison weapons) when killed.

The issue is that Warriors are no longer packing comparable firepower to the Ravager. The Ravager's lances do d6+2 damage but the Warriors are still stuck doing d6 damage. I see that as a marked difference in damage.


Regarding the Wyches, I'd definitely replace Warriors instead of Incubi. IMO Incubi are one of the best units in the book, plus they benefit from the Ld debuffs (as they can force units to fight last if they fail Ld tests).

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Concur on the Incubi. They may look like they do a similar thing to Wyches, but they're tooled up for very different roles. Incubi are what Drukhari have that can go toe to toe with elite targets. Wyches (even with their ludicrous weight of dice) can and will struggle against higher Toughness and good save targets. Incubi (ideally boosted to the 9s with Drazhar) will outright cleave through most things that Wyches would bounce right off of.

Likewise Wyches are faaaaaar better suited to horde-blending, which the Incubi can struggle with. They're supplementary units, not competitive ones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 16:51:09


 
   
Made in us
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

@vipoid and @Sterling191

Thanks for the feedback!

I've taken all that you've discussed (can't really argue against) and came up with another list, one that I didn't see until now.

So, if I really wanted to leverage the PGL in shots, and be able to stack the mortal wounds, I need units that has both the grisly trophy and use the Dark Creed obsession.

I think a RSR detachment is effectively the best way to accomplish that.

Spoiler:
Obsession:
Cult of the Cursed Blade
The Dark Creed
Kabal of Black Heart

HQ:
Master Archon, WL, Hatred Eternal, Djinn Blade, Raid Mastermind
Haemonculus, Master Regerist, Spirit-Sting
Succubus, Adrenalight, Precision Blow, Triptych Whip, ShowStealer

Troops:
Trueborn, 7x splinters, 2x blasters, 1x Dark Lance, PGL (in Raider #1)
Warrior, 4x splinters, 1x blaster, PGL (in Raider #2)
Warrior, 4x splinters, 1x blaster, PGL (in Raider #2)
Wrack, 2x Liquifiers (in Venom #1)
Wyches, Grave Lotus, PGL (in Raider #3)
Wyches, Grave Lotus, PGL (in Raider #3)

Elite:
Beastmaster, Painbringer
5x Incubi (in Venom #2)
5x Incubi (in Venom #3)

Fast:
3x Clawed Fiend
2x Clawed Field

Heavy:
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance, PGL
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance, PGL
2x Taloi, Heat Lance, twin-Ligquifier

Dedicated Transport:
Raider #1, Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophy, PGL
Raider #2, Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophy, PGL
Raider #3, Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophy, PGL
Venom #1, Coven, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Rifle, Grisly Trophy
Venom #2, Coven, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Rifle, Grisly Trophy

This is a pretty significant change from my previous list.

There's 10x PGL in this list (as opposed to just 9x PGL)
There's 5 units of Dark Creed + Grisly Trophy (as opposed to just 3x units)

Still plenty of dark light and poison weapons in this army, including the Truborns.

I've taking your incubi suggestions to heart and kept the two 5x incubi units for elite hunting.

I have 2 units of wyches for horde control or keep things in close combat (dishing PGL as well). I only have 10 wyches. If I had 10 more, I think I'd swap out the two warriors for wyches. This might be on my next purchase depending on how my game goes.

I swapped out the grots for two Talois. I think the talos works better for center control and counter-assault duty.

Finally, in a black heart RSR, Claw Fiends with PtP is sorta spicy, getting 6++ beginning the game and assault after running (5++ by turn 4!). They're effectively WS3 by turn 2, so they pack a bit more punch than csm spawns. These guys are pedal to the medal for no man's land to be that cheap distraction carnifex role. (in a pinch obj duty too).

I'm digging this list... but, my only hesitation is the Black Heart obsession.

I may swap it for the Obsidian Rose for the extra 6" and re-roll wounds (lose out PtP for Clawed Fiends). In fact, I'm probably leaning towards 60% Obsidian Rose, 40% Black Heart.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 19:17:32


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Keep in mind that Clawed Fiends don't get PfP, even in an RSR. I'm personally not sold on their utility, especially when for the points you're laying down on the Fiends and their handler you can deny your opponent 3 points on Assasinate and bring either a half dozen fully tooled up Reavers, or ten Hellions (you'd need to shave a few points to fit the Hellions, but you'll also be able to potentially bring two more PGLs), both of which can serve in a very similar role but with faaaaaar better output. The Hellions can even do most actions since they're Infantry (Characters and Beasts generally can't interact with the action secondaries barring one or two mission specific picks IIRC).

You're already taking Cursed Blade as your Cult, which is what both Reavers and Hellions desperately want to be.

With regards to Obsidian Rose versus Black Heart, since you're taking an RSR the Black Heart bonuses win out IMO. Yes, the range boost on OR is amazing (it's my preferred non-RSR Kabal, full disclosure), but with your Archon able to hand out RR1s to hit for anything CORE in the detachment, plus allowing your Incubi to count PfP one tier higher, it's just no contest. You're bringing a lot of spicy CORE Coven and Cult units plus your Blades for Hire.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/25 19:57:18


 
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

@Sterling191: to your point about Clawed Fiends not getting PfP, I'm not sure I'm seeing that restriction. In the book I see the fiends as the "Blades for Hires" keyword, and the Black Heart RSR rule does give "Blades for Hire" the PtP.

However, I really do like your idea about swapping the Clawed Fiends for Hellions. I was able to add 2x 5 man Hellions with PGL, by dropping wrack liquifiers, beast master and clawed fiends (giving me 12 units of PGL!).

Updated list:
Spoiler:
Obsession:
Cult of the Cursed Blade
The Dark Creed
Kabal of Black Heart

HQ:
Master Archon, WL, Hatred Eternal, Djinn Blade, Raid Mastermind
Haemonculus, Master Regerist, Spirit-Sting
Succubus, Adrenalight, Precision Blow, Triptych Whip, ShowStealer

Troops:
Trueborn, 7x splinters, 2x blasters, 1x Dark Lance, PGL (in Raider #1)
Warrior, 4x splinters, 1x blaster, PGL (in Raider #2)
Warrior, 4x splinters, 1x blaster, PGL (in Raider #2)
Wrack, 2x Liquifiers (in Venom #1)
Wyches, Grave Lotus, PGL (in Raider #3)
Wyches, Grave Lotus, PGL (in Raider #3)

Elite:
Beast Master, Painbringer
5x Incubi (in Venom #2)
5x Incubi (in Venom #3)

Fast:
3x Clawed Fiend
2x Clawed Fiend
5x Hellion, Painbringer, PGL
5x Hellion, Painbringer, PGL

Heavy:
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance, PGL
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance, PGL
2x Taloi, Heat Lance, twin-Liquifier

Dedicated Transport:
Raider #1, Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophy, PGL
Raider #2, Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophy, PGL
Raider #3, Coven, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophy, PGL
Venom #1, Coven, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Rifle, Grisly Trophy
Venom #2, Coven, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Rifle, Grisly Trophy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 21:30:05


6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I like your revised list a lot more. Hope it serves you well.

 whembly wrote:
@Sterling191: to your point about Clawed Fiends not getting PfP, I'm not sure I'm seeing that restriction. In the book I see the fiends as the "Blades for Hires" keyword, and the Black Heart RSR rule does give "Blades for Hire" the PtP.


Blades for Hire do benefit from Black heart's +1 to PfP in a RSR detachment.

The issue for Beasts is that they don't have PfP to begin with (and neither BH nor the RSR gives it to them).

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Power from Pain is a datasheet ability. If a datasheet doesnt have it, it doesnt get the bonuses. And Clawed Fiends don't have PfP (none of the beasts do).

It's why for instance the Reaper didn't get any benefit from actually being in a Drukhari army until a recent FAQ: Forge World didn't include the ability on its datasheet so despite being for all intents and purposes a bigger, pointier Ravager it wasn't affected by the ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 22:35:28


 
   
 
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