Switch Theme:

Burning chariot rider armed with heavy weapons? WTF  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Luton, England

I'm hoping I'm missing something obvious here but both of the ranged attacks that an exalted flamer on burning chariot has are 'Heavy' so he must snapfire (or in the case of the flamer not fire it at all).

It seems if it's stationary he can fire its short ranged weapons normally, if it moves at all it must snapfire its heavy weapons.

I'm really hoping I missed something in the chariot rules here that always lets him fire otherwise this unit is completely pointless and an utter fail in rules design. I suspect they thought of it as the vehicle firing the weapons but thats not what they have written in the codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/03 10:41:29


25,000pts
12,000pts
5,000pts
3,000pts 
   
Made in au
Terrifying Treeman






The Fallen Realm of Umbar

Chariots are vehicles aren't they?

DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.

 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

Yeah they are, but I believe the situation in question has the heavy weapon on the rider/passenger rather than the vehicle itself. If this is the case then he is bound by the normal rules for models firing out of vehicles i.e he counts as moving if the vehicle moves so could only snap heavy weapons (unless he has Relentless etc).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/03 11:15:40


 
   
Made in au
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Wisdom appears to be correct, the weapons are granted very specifically to the rider, not the chariot, so they are fired using the transport firing point rules (with modifications for being open topped)

That means, if the vehicle moved Pink Fire can't be used, and Blue Fire will be Snap Shots.

Interceptor Drones can disembark at any point during the Sun Shark's move (even though models cannot normally disembark from Zooming Flyers).


-Jeremy Vetock, only man at Games Workshop who understands Zooming Flyers 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine







 Drunkspleen wrote:
Wisdom appears to be correct, the weapons are granted very specifically to the rider, not the chariot, so they are fired using the transport firing point rules (with modifications for being open topped)

That means, if the vehicle moved Pink Fire can't be used, and Blue Fire will be Snap Shots.


So basically we are left with a frail, useless vehicle as one of the primary anti-armour selections....I think somebody was asleep at the wheel on this one. I expect that to get FAQ'ed really soon (which can be done just by giving the exalted flamer the Relentless USR).

I'm sure the intention was to make the Exalted Flamer an official part of the chariot (since he can't disembark), but unfortunately, they set up the unit classification wrong.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine




Tulsa, OK

It does mean he can overwatch with it too. If it was on the vehicle he couldn't.

4000+
4000+ 
   
Made in gb
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Luton, England

Its a hard problem to solve without a complete re-write.

If they make them assault or give him relentless then he still can't fire them when it moves 12", they kind of need to move them to vehicle weapons but this will require quite some rules adding which they are alway loath to do and even if they did become vehicle weapons then they would be BS:3 and couldn't overwatch :-(


Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/03 14:12:09


25,000pts
12,000pts
5,000pts
3,000pts 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Left Coast

WisdomLS wrote:

Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.


In turn 1 of the WD BR the BC moved from one side of a large ruin to the other (unquestionably more than 6" and probably less than 12") and then proceeded to fire at a land raider.

   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

WisdomLS wrote:
Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.

Battle Reports often have incorrect rules, so there will be no help there.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine







WisdomLS wrote:
Its a hard problem to solve without a complete re-write.

If they make them assault or give him relentless then he still can't fire them when it moves 12", they kind of need to move them to vehicle weapons but this will require quite some rules adding which they are alway loath to do and even if they did become vehicle weapons then they would be BS:3 and couldn't overwatch :-(


Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.


The problem is, they tried to make 2 very different vehicles out of a single unit. How the hell the playtesters didn't catch this, I'll never know.
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch





All of the Chariots are screwy. They are not actually Transports and don't have any Access Points or Fire Points listed either

The Burning Chariot is totally broken though. I think they intended that the Exalted Flamer attacks to be treated as weapons on the vehicle (but even that needs extra information).
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







Yeah, I was playing it wrong this weekend, because I assumed that the weapons were for the vehicle.

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine







TzeentchNet wrote:
All of the Chariots are screwy. They are not actually Transports and don't have any Access Points or Fire Points listed either

The Burning Chariot is totally broken though. I think they intended that the Exalted Flamer attacks to be treated as weapons on the vehicle (but even that needs extra information).


Chariots are all open topped, so they don't need access/fire points listed. As for the Burning Chariot, I will definately hold off purchasing one until they fix the rules.
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch





Open-topped vehicles don't need an access point stated strictly as worded (despite being under the Open-Topped Transports header), but Transport and Chariot are not the same Type (Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, p. 70) and the rule about Fire Points specifically says: "Open-topped Transports do not have specific Fire Points."

They obviously intended all the Chariots to also be Transports (they list a Transport Capacity after all), but Chariots themselves have no special rule about shooting from them. I could be missing something though.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

It is has a Transport Capacity it's a Transport. If it's a Transport and is Open Topped, it's an Open Topped Transport.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/03 21:27:56


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Yeah, I wrote about this on my blog and on BoLS today.

I will be calling GW HQ tomorrow and hopefully getting a better answer.

I was going to get 3, but if rules are this terrible, I'm seriously thinking against it.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
The World Killer.




The best State-Texas

Yeah, RAW is really screwed up. You can't even choose to disembark the Rider. I think they tried to do to many things at once with the Vehicle, and screwed up.

Luckily, my group plays it RAI, but RAW is pretty clear right now.


4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+ 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




which RAI dou you use exactly? how far are you allowed to move to be able to fire both weapons without penalties?
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Left Coast

If you presume that the intention was vehicle mounted, then that would be RAI. If you presume that the intention was indeed to be infantry mounted then you're using RAW for RAI. Not very helpful, but this one is a bit of a mess.

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp






Dimmamar

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ


This isn't in the BRB rules for Chariots, nor do I see it anywhere on the Burning Chariot rules. Where are you getting this from?

40k Resources

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1000 1500 3500

"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut



Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ


That the passenger is prohibited from disembarking doesn't make him part of the crew. He's still a passenger, and still subject to the rules for passengers. Otherwise he'd be written like the Skull Cannon, which is a Chariot with no transport capacity. So he can only snap-fire his heavy weapons if the vehicle moves, making him less than effective.
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Left Coast

Chrysis wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ


That the passenger is prohibited from disembarking doesn't make him part of the crew. He's still a passenger, and still subject to the rules for passengers. Otherwise he'd be written like the Skull Cannon, which is a Chariot with no transport capacity. So he can only snap-fire his heavy weapons if the vehicle moves, making him less than effective.


Unfortunately, that about sums it up.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ

None of that has any basis in the rules. The Ex Flamer is stated to be a passenger.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Well, since the Flamer dude is a "passenger", and follows "passenger" rules, then chariots seem to be a very bad unit to spend points and cash on. Until GW puts out an Errata or FAQ that fixes this blunder.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
WisdomLS wrote:
Its a hard problem to solve without a complete re-write.

If they make them assault or give him relentless then he still can't fire them when it moves 12", they kind of need to move them to vehicle weapons but this will require quite some rules adding which they are alway loath to do and even if they did become vehicle weapons then they would be BS:3 and couldn't overwatch :-(


Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.


The problem is, they tried to make 2 very different vehicles out of a single unit. How the hell the playtesters didn't catch this, I'll never know.


GW doesn't use playtesters except for themselves. Its a bad idea to playtest your own stuff, you'll miss stuff that other people will catch.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Malicious Mutant Scum




it sucks but its ture dont waste your money till its fixed

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/05 17:57:30


Dream Crush 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




But not only did chariot move and shot in one turn in the WD battle rep, but its semms it shot at 2 different targets: it killed done squad and shot an land raider but with no effect
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Since it is a fast vehicle, wouldn't that allow the passenger to fire 2 weapons at ballistic skill when moving at cruising speed? or does that only effect the vehicle?

World Eaters ~a bunch now
Hive Fleet Anphellion ~ 10k
Imperial Knights ~3k  
   
Made in us
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Murfreesboro, TN

No, it's because both of the weapons are "Heavy" that causes the problem. As soon as the chariot moves the infantry inside count as moving.

I'm currently taking commissions.
Phil's Minis.
Contact me at my site.
Phil's Minis
Use coupon code NWSTRT5 for 5% off EVERYTHING! 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: