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I was thinking of running a C:SM list with librarian and assault terminators, with GK allies.

Basically I would be using servo skulls plased around midfield, and then use GOI to deliver terminators 24" forward within range of servo skulls to only scatter d6.

Would this be viable tactic? How many terminators would be optimal? 5-10?

Or would they just get shot to death and waste 300+ points?

My other units in the list would be 3 Storm Talons, Tac marines / Strike Squads and autocannon Dreadnoughts

Could work, but keep in mind you can't assault after deep strike. Assault marines are innert points on the turn they have to deep strike, and very vulnerable too vindicators

I don't think the servo-skulls apply to units from your primary detachment, since Space Marines and Grey Knights are not Battle-Brothers. That said, I used to use a variant of this tactic in 5th edition except with Scout Bikers using a Locator Beacon rather than Servo-Skulls, and I found it quite effective. I would use 10 Assault Terminators on foot and the pressure from these units was typically overwhelming against most opponents.

I would think that using Locator Beacons is not as effective, because GOI has to be used at the beginning of the movement phase, so you wouldn't have the beacons up where you need them until turn two or so.
Servo skulls would work right from the 1st turn.

As to servo skulls applying to allies of convenience, they only state "friendly units". AoC are friendly units except to allied units. If servo skulls were units themselves, they would not work.

My only worry is that the terminator unit gets shot after it deep strikes forward.

I've used gate like this before except with shooty terminators.

With a blood angles main detachment I used an allied SM libby with GoI and null zone(less good now), and BA libby with Divination.

It is expensive but very killy, super mobile, and rather tough if you add a sang priest. Use LoS for you saves and don't waste points on term armor for the libbys.

Its mostly a for fun unit but I've had some good times teleporting around the table. Kill all vindicators, demolishers, and Marbos before teleporting and you should be good.

Gate works better with shooty termies.
For SW having a Rune Priest in there with Jaws is also fun.

Hmm, I dont see why shooty terminators would be better. If you needed stormboltter shots to be delivered you could just use GK Strike Squad and use GOI with them. I dont really see the benefit of using terminators, since they are more expensive.

My only reason for using assault terminators is that C:SM has the cheapest TH/SS termies out of all codicies.

Rune Priests with Jaws sounds fun though. You could take double RP both with Jaws, 2 Units of GH with plasma and 2 SM librarians to GOI them forward.

Polecat wrote:
Hmm, I dont see why shooty terminators would be better. If you needed stormboltter shots to be delivered you could just use GK Strike Squad and use GOI with them. I dont really see the benefit of using terminators, since they are more expensive.

My only reason for using assault terminators is that C:SM has the cheapest TH/SS termies out of all codicies.

Rune Priests with Jaws sounds fun though. You could take double RP both with Jaws, 2 Units of GH with plasma and 2 SM librarians to GOI them forward.

Why bother with libbys and GOI, drop pods can do it so much better if you are only using grey hunters

MarkyMark wrote:

Why bother with libbys and GOI, drop pods can do it so much better if you are only using grey hunters

SW pods can only hold 10 models, so you cant take full GH squad and RP unlike with librarian.
Also you would have to invest in a 3rd pod to get 2 pods down on first turn.

assault termies get to run in the shooting phase after they gate, so they arent bunched for a Vindy or Plasma cannon shot. shooty terminators need to shoot, so they would be sitting ducks to templates.

Polecat wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

Why bother with libbys and GOI, drop pods can do it so much better if you are only using grey hunters

SW pods can only hold 10 models, so you cant take full GH squad and RP unlike with librarian.
Also you would have to invest in a 3rd pod to get 2 pods down on first turn.

Drop pods cant mishap though, (except by going off the board) and the cost of two libbys, who would have to be the primary army is 200pts, plus two troops choices (say scouts) thats 350pts, then 500pts for two 10 man GH squads and two basic rune priests. 850pts for two jaws and a 20 rapid fire bolter shots?.

30 sternguard in pods would be better at 5 pts more.

MarkyMark wrote:

Drop pods cant mishap though, (except by going off the board) and the cost of two libbys, who would have to be the primary army is 200pts, plus two troops choices (say scouts) thats 350pts, then 500pts for two 10 man GH squads and two basic rune priests. 850pts for two jaws and a 20 rapid fire bolter shots?.

30 sternguard in pods would be better at 5 pts more.

Sternguard dont score though. If we are talking 1750 - 2000 point armylists, 40 scoring marines is the minimum I would feel comfortable with, so I wouldn't count those GH or tac marines towards the cost of the GOI librarian + Jaws RP. I actually want those GH to be up there, because they are remarkably good for their points in close combat. Also they would be carrying two plasma guns, or maybe meltaguns, so it's not just bolter shots.

The only reasons to take SW beyond fluff are RP with Jaws, GH, Long Fangs and Loganwing. Other than those units I find C:SM to be better choise for primary force, if only for the fact that SW dont get any flyers.

I do agree though, that paying 100 points for that second librarian that is beyond the required 1 HQ choise is a little expensive.

I do love my sternguard list, espically when using Pedro for scoring or Vulkan for twin linked goodness, I have 10 plasma sternguard, 10 melta and 10 flamers (2 of each are specials rather then combis), I havent really had many times when I have used vulkan that scoring is a issue the alpha strike is mean enough not to care about losing the sternguard as that is what they are there for to die. But before they die they kill anything elite or tank or troops and take a lot of firepower to wipe them out.

I just dont think GoI is that good the way you plan to use it, SW can do drop pod assault better then anyone else really

Polecat wrote:
I was thinking of running a C:SM list with librarian and assault terminators, with GK allies.

Basically I would be using servo skulls plased around midfield, and then use GOI to deliver terminators 24" forward within range of servo skulls to only scatter d6.

Would this be viable tactic? How many terminators would be optimal? 5-10?

Or would they just get shot to death and waste 300+ points?

My other units in the list would be 3 Storm Talons, Tac marines / Strike Squads and autocannon Dreadnoughts

Ive had some success using this tactic as a last minute defensive manoeuvre.

I always run a squad of 7 TH/SS termis with a librarian (TA/FW). Moving them forward with a Land Raider. (they hurt everything).

On turn 5, If there is an objective close by that is in need of some denial units. I can GOI my squad there with out worry that they will be destroyed by the end of the game.

You're describing something similar to the old Shrike game - a bunch of Hammernators getting the T2 charge off.


Can it work? Sure. You say that you're worried about them getting shot. They're THERE to get shot. In fact, they're there to get shot so the rest of your army doesn't.



If it were me, I'd run 10x TH/SS Terminators with a Librarian (Terminator armor, TH/SS, GOI and Null Zone or Avenger...probably Null Zone). T1 GOI the whole bunch right up into your enemy's face, then run to disperse. T2, cast Null Zone and hammer bash things with invulnerable saves.

The rest of your army is going to have a turn to maneuver fairly well as the Terminators will receive a lot of attention, so consider that as part of the strategy. The rest of your army should be of a type that wants to close with the enemy quickly...maybe 3x Vindicators, some more Hammernators on foot, MM/HF Land Speeders, and Tac marines to taste?

I think th/ss terminators could work with the gate librarian (I would put him in terminator armor too, personally) but they couldn't benefit from the servo-skulls. (Since Grey Knights are only allies of convenience with Space Marines, and unless I remember wrong, allies of convenience treat each other like enemy units that cannot be targeted or assaulted.) I play a Drop Pod list, and have frequently used a Gate'ing librarian bouncing off the locator beacons, so I can personally verify that it's a pretty useful tactic. (Although I use Sternguard.)

I think the one thing you haven't factored in is the death factor. Since you lose a guy in transit on an roll of doubles, and this would be a big loss for your unit, given how expensive the termies are. (Compared with other Space Marines.) ((Unless Gate changed since 5th ed, which is entirely possible, in which case ignore this entire paragraph! ))

In any event, I hope it works out for you, and good luck!

I've played agains someone playing a C:SM army that I believe had Lysander a Librarian in TA and 5 TH/SS terminators GoI around the board. They were supported by 2 squads land speeders consisting of 2x Land Speeder Typhoon with HB. This list also had 3 drop pods IIRC? 1 with a tac squad 2 with dreadnoughts. Granted this list was last seen back in 5th. The player has since converted the army to CSM Nurgle.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think th/ss terminators could work with the gate librarian (I would put him in terminator armor too, personally) but they couldn't benefit from the servo-skulls. (Since Grey Knights are only allies of convenience with Space Marines, and unless I remember wrong, allies of convenience treat each other like enemy units that cannot be targeted or assaulted.) I play a Drop Pod list, and have frequently used a Gate'ing librarian bouncing off the locator beacons, so I can personally verify that it's a pretty useful tactic. (Although I use Sternguard.)

If you read the Allies of Convenience -rule, you will see that it only affects units. Servo skulls are not units, their description specifically mentions this. So Servo skulls are not affected by AoC or Desperate Allies rules. I think further discussion about this should be taken to YMDC.

Anyway, thank you all for comments so far. I think I will try this tactic.

I was thinking of doing this but slightly differently. You could leave out GK all together and take a Drop Pod with Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer, Stick and Iron Clad in it and then Teleport the Assault Termies next to it. Let your opponent have to decide what he wants to kill him next turn, Plus it allows you to get the homer a lot closer to the enemy as the DP won't mishap (Servo Skulls die if you go near them). Being that close if they have vindicators they'll have to think twice about using them. And frankly if they do have a Vindicator the Iron Clad can just come out of the DP and pop it with melta on the first turn.

FuzzyLogik wrote:
I was thinking of doing this but slightly differently. You could leave out GK all together and take a Drop Pod with Locator Beacon or Teleport Homer, Stick and Iron Clad in it and then Teleport the Assault Termies next to it. Let your opponent have to decide what he wants to kill him next turn, Plus it allows you to get the homer a lot closer to the enemy as the DP won't mishap (Servo Skulls die if you go near them). Being that close if they have vindicators they'll have to think twice about using them. And frankly if they do have a Vindicator the Iron Clad can just come out of the DP and pop it with melta on the first turn.

Locator beacons have to be on the table at the start of the turn to be able to use them. So you can't use drop pods with beacons and GOI on turn 1. You would have to wait until turn 2 to use GOi, and not be able to assault until turn 3.

Ah, I overlooked that. Unfortunately I don't have my codex with me but as you decribe it you could probably get away with it, but I would anticipate a few arguments regarding the Allies of Convenience. My point being that they aren't a unit but they are strictly speaking a piece of wargear from another unit, they just don't have to be in proximity to that unit.

Sorry Polecat. I thought that the legality of a tactic would be well within the purview of a discussion on how viable that tactic is. However, as the OP, I will happily bow to your wishes and not clutter up your thread with a rules argument. You might be interested to see that it has already been brought up, in fact. Miraculously, the Dakka search function came through for me! I posted a link to this, as well as my reasoning, in the old thread, since it still seemed relevant. Delighted to hear your thoughts.

I think it's a viable tactic with a high risk to reward tradeoff. I don't think it needs to be tweaked with GK, I mean go for it if you love GK but I think the rules for deepstrike are pretty forgiving now.

Thank you for the link, Jimsolo. The rules discussion can continue there.