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I got a lot of loyalty to Da Boyz, so I'll be playing Orkz through thick and thin. They could be down to a 10% Win rate and I'd still be rolling in the green skins. Maybe literally, if I can find some cheap armies on Ebay if that happens.

addnid wrote:
If that is a world we are entering for solo tournaments then I am glad I have other armies to use until that world goes away, and leave another world open (one where boyz are good again).

It's not as dire as you might believe. I think CA and Psychic Awakenings will provide us options, so we will likely have some shake ups in the next 3-6 weeks. This is just as stuff currently sits.

I also find the idea of flipping the bird to Marines really satisfying. Oh, you kill all much gak easily? enjoy eating SAGs while killing the cheapest unit in the game, that even a Guardsman can smack around. Good use of your 55+ point model.

Boyz are also fine in other matchups -- if you can accept they are weaker in that particular fight, it's more about playing and getting as much value out of your boyz as possible. This may mean Shoota boyz only, playing more defensively, adding a Painboy for the 6+++, etc. You may end up not even fighting many marines, even if they are 25% of the meta, in a given 5 game tournament.

The Legends update may also not be as bad people think.

1) MA Big Mek is not *that* much worse to the index Big Mek in stats -- 1" movement slower sucks, but a bad advance roll may have hindered you anyway in keeping up. The key will be if they recognize it's INCREDIBLY overcosted. If it comes down to 90-95 points with a PK, Kustom Shoota, KFF, it'll be fine. It even is a bit more sniper resistant with the 2+ save.
2) Because FW makes a biker Boss, we might keep ours. *really* hoping. I know it's a character, but they market it on the FW site as a Warboss on Bike, not as Da Rippa (Plus it's a SICK model).
3) MA Warboss and Biker Mek weren't really used in competitive lists much anyway.
4) A lot of index options (Shoota Nobz, Deff kopta w/ KMB, Big Mek w/ KMB) weren't really showing up competitively anyway. Although I think for more casual / semi-competitive lists, this sucks butt.

If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
KMKs are overpriced though.

Theyre just D6 Kustom Mega shots at 36" range. It offers nothing compared to the other two considering you cant put badmoonz rerolls on it to prevent 1s hurting you too, yet its twice the cost?
I'll use the traktor over the KMK any day. Yea, 1 shot vs d6, but it autohits and if it pops a flying vehicle BOOM!
KMK shouldnt be 45pts when the base weapon with that profile is 9pts. More like 30-35pts.

True, but that's mostly about killyness since 60 pts for 6W T5 5+ models which act as separate units once deployed sounds right, if not even undercosted (and in fact Smasha Gunz are undercosted).

I'd take 100pts KMKs any time if they had 3D6 shots, and maybe also the kultur bonus. 30ish ppm artillery models were ok in the previous editions when they had 1-2 W and less firepower. Mek gunz will just get some new price in CA (up or down, it depends on the gun type) but I really hope that in the future they'll be reworked to match the current state of 40k which isn't the same of 3rd-7th editions when single anti tank shots could wreck something valuable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

addnid wrote:
If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.

60 gretchins at 4ppm would be +60 points than the current lists, not a huge deal actually. Grots are too important to get CPs and even at 4ppm they'd be a way more efficient way to field multiple battallions than boyz. Supposing that also Smasha Gunz go up in points 4ppm gretchins and more expensive smashas just means that green tides with 12+ mek gunz would be exactly the same with a few less artillery models. Unless other toyz become competitive with a significant price reduction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
imagine the power creep if they gave choppas +1 AP, even if it was only on the charge.
Be about as bad as giving marines +1AP and +1 Attack.

In 3rd edition basic choppas limited the target's armour save to 4+ which means AP-1 on MEQ and even AP-2 on TEQ. With the current state of 40k choppas with AP-1 (on the charge, by strategem, or exploding 6s) wouldn't even be power creep.

Since I can't stand re-rolls and adding more shots, as they slow down the game, I've always wanted modifiers instead of those, like +1 to hit, or to wound or -1 AP.

addnid wrote:
If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.

The grot rumor (and pretty much all other CA rumors) have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source.

Is there a way to run orks without a billion boyz, like through for example heavy mechanisation?

 Jidmah wrote:

addnid wrote:
If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.

The grot rumor (and pretty much all other CA rumors) have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source.

But the new ghazkull model rumour hasnt!!!

 Jidmah wrote:

addnid wrote:
If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.

The grot rumor (and pretty much all other CA rumors) have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source.

That is very good news as there was absolutely nothing I liked there. Let’s keep our fingers crossed then. There is hope for our vehicules still.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Is there a way to run orks without a billion boyz, like through for example heavy mechanisation?

Hard to play mechanized lists when you have aggressors shooting down 2/3 planes x turn and centurions eating up knights ...

Yeah. Unfortunately, our vehicles aren't durable enough to survive pretty much anything, but also aren't cheap enough to effectively spam. Though, to be fair, this applies to a lot of our infantry too. If we don't see any point drops in CA, and if our "go-to" units get a price hike, we might not HAVE a competitive build anymore.

Sometimes I wonder what the point is when trying to get into 40k when the army becomes obsolete before you get it painted. Well I suppose my boyz look nice enough for display.

Well, I put out a "worst case scenario" statement there, so I wouldn't take it as gospel. The likeliest scenario is that our vehicles will get a lot of point drops, which will shift our meta in a good way.

tulun wrote:
I actually think Lootas would be fine against more units than suggested *if* we could keep them alive more than 1 turn. Because we can’t they are lacklustre.

It’s hard to field more than 1 unit of any of our shooty infantry. It’s why I hope our wagons get way cheaper so we can field them as proper gun platforms.

I agree about Grot shields. I think it’s a bit of a red herring; the tellyporta combo is way more useful and consistent.

Has anyone who has lost a billion grots done so when they’ve been under a KFF + painboy on turn 1?

It’s probably better to hide Lootas and da jump / move them into LOS then hope your shields hold up. Or use them similar to tankbustas and just more Dakka them on landing. Grots are probably best against indirect fire, since it’s unlikely they’ll be able to field enough to both trigger and wipe the grots out. But at that point, maybe you should just tellyporta.

Well, I use grotz mostly for grot shields and CP generation, so the only time my opponent kills grots (for the most part) is when he is shooting my Lootas. When grot shields is used you don't get KFF but you do get FNP but its a 6+ so....not really doing much. I played against an IG tournament list where my opponent ate through 50 grotz and most of my lootas turn 1. Same tournament I had an eldar opponent kill 40 grotz in the shooting phase. I mean, they just aren't hard to kill.

On the related note of 4pts per grot. If they go to 4pts per grot then I would demand (inconsequentially mind you) that GW gives them Imperial Guardsmen stats and weapons. Even GW in their own ineptness must realize that we only take grots for CP generation not because they are useful.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Have we come up with any viable tactics in the new meta yet? I think Blackie had it on the previous page - we need to go back to the old, classic green tide. I can't see anyway we can hope to realistically kill what we need to from the Marine army so I think our only hope is to flood the board with as many bodied as possible and try to win on objectives. It's boring, it might not work but I can't see another way. Anyone else with any ideas? Lootas don't seem to be the answer, Flash Gits are too niche and Tank Bustas only operate against vehicles, really.

What else we got? Smashas, Grots, Boys and warbosses?

I play a decent tournament meta and I decided to throw a monkey wrench into the works by bringing an Ork mech list as a surprise list. I had 3 Bonebreakers in reserve and a Morkanaut that was on the table but hidden behind cover as well as a TON of Mek Gunz. Turn 2 I had 3 Bonebreakers show up along with 30 Boyz and Da Jumped 30 more into my opponents lines where my Mek gunz and Morkanaut had blasted holes in his screen. I did this not once, not twice but 3 times in that tournament and went a respectable ( in my opinion) 3 wins out of 4. The 4th game was against the tournament winner who managed to kill my Morkanaut and most of my Mek gunz by turn 2 and when my BBs showed up he used that intercept strat to blast one of them apart. Overall, a lot of fun and a lot of surprise, but against the new hot SM lists it just doesn't work.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The whole red gobbo thing bugs me more because hes directly Legacy than anything else. Had he not been i probably wouldnt want him anyway but seriously why is a new release legacy only? nobody else has that happen to them.
Black Citadel is a cesspool of new characters, all legal in normal 40k. For other armies and even unaligned
Orks are usually ignored. This isnt being ignored this is just gradually taking gak away and giving nothing new.

There is also the Dwarf wearing Power armor with the same nonsensical rules and what not. Basically they are limited edition releases that are more for the hobbyist then the actual game player. I was literally about to go buy one from my local store when I noticed the price. Sorry GW, I will not be dropping $35 for a single grot model.

Actually, you can't use a 6+++ with Grot Shields. As per the Stratagem, the intercepting model is slain; it doesn't actually take damage.

So, took an ork horde list to a 2K ITC tourney yesterday.

90 goff scarboys, cheapo warboss and weirdboy made one detachment while 40 shootaboys, the good old supa shokka mek, grots and a full sized tankbusta mob made up 2 more detachments with 20 goff kommandos and some KFF meks made up the rest. Overall it went pretty well.

First game was against a walker Alpha Legion list. 2 conteptors with the C beam weapons can put out a rather good amount of damage to a horde. disco lord, maulerfiend, lascannon havocs, 3 oblits and a butcher cannon armed dread made up the rest of his killing power with some nurglings and cultists bulking things up. Though the Nurgle herald with the -1 toughness spell was a bit of a pain. Managed to win that game, outflanking with green tide and Da-jump. The boys took a few hits but pushed forward and took objectives rather well. Tankbustas managed to one shot the mauler then the disco while the big mek rolled a little above average and took out the dreads pretty quick. Managed to pull a win by about 3 or 4 points.

Second game was against a 3 tank commanders, smashcaptain and libby dread with 3 units of deathwatch/master in deep strike. Started off well for me, not taking much damage but killing plenty first turn. Theeeeen the deathwatch came down and wiped out 80 or so boys. Those fethers are way too good. xP Can't even make a dent in them in return. Outside of fishing for mortal wounds with the shokka or maybe dropping bombers on them I really can't think of much in our book that can take em out easily. By the end he didn't have much at all, just those 3 units of bastards. Lost by quite a bit.

Third game was against chaos knights. Tankbustas took one knight to 3 wounds, shreaded 2 wardogs but his warlord had the luck of chaos and refused to take much damage. Either way between the kommandos infiltrating, boys jumping and new mobs respawning I managed to control field. And every time those boys hit a knight they tore good sized holes in the bastards, wounding them on 5s feels good with the amount of attacks you can put out. Mek did nothing all game except last turn where he half healths a knight even with below average roles. Won that game by a good margin, just lobbing grot mobs onto objectives with the jump later turns like bob ross painting the field with splatters of green.

Overall, playing horde orks feels like it has potential. Though some match ups hurt soooo bad. I still prefer tankbustas to lootas. The bump in AP, S and D really helps against most targets. The kommandos were mostly just to throw more bodies on the field, support the turn 2 push or hug objectives. Everything else felt like they performed as well as I could ask. Not a single 11+ str on the shokka though sadly. Laaaaame.

Overall.

Great job on doing so well, but none of those games were against Marines 2.0, which are what is giving most people here head-aches.

I'm going to face Ultramarines with my ork mech army today, wish me luck

Just won a one day 22 man ITC tournament this weekend with a triple battalion with SSAG DS, warboss and Badrukk freebooterz backed by 9 smashaguns and 10 Flashgitz, bad moon double weirdboy, 30 shoota and 15 tankabusta with 5 bombs in a Battlewagon. 115 grots helped to give board control.

Game 1 vs Tau
Very aggressive and meticolous player, Dawn of War deployment.
Doubel riptide, 2 commander, 3 crisis, 24 shield drone, minimal fire warriors and marker light caracther .
He got first turn and blowed 45 grots, battlewagon and a couple of smashaguns.
I shot EVERYTHING at the drones and crisis suit and managed to take away the drones. Jumped and tackled some fire warriors.
Than he sniped my SSAG with a commander, more gunz and the tankabusta. I took the crisis and left a riptide on 3 W.
He took midfield and shot some other gunz. Got clocked out.
I won by taking points everywhere 26-23

Second match vs RG
Holy gak. Hammer and anvil deployment , I gave him first turn thinking I screenwd enough, leaving the wagon in ruins outside the grots line. I was wrong. He had like 30 intercessor, 6 caracthers 3 aesuots and some scouts. came in my lines with the warlord trait and almost wiped the wagon trapping the tankabusta. I lost like 8 models between explosion and no space to deploy. I retaliated by wiping the first line of asssault.
T2 did the same thing, managed to wipe the tankabusta the warboss and wrapping the Flashgitz. He killed like 5 smashaguns
I retaliated by almost taking the whole second line down and the SSAG went bananas killing 10 primaris D2 dude (infiltrator?) And a warsuit. The SSAG dude started a trend that will end up winning me the tournament.
Last turn were a mop up of points. 35-21

Last match vs Drukhari
Spearhead deployment, he had a whole black heart deal of stuff. 3 bomber planes, 4 boats, 5 venoms, a bunch of witched and 12 bikes.
This game was insane. He vected me 3 times in 2 rounds. A grot shield (killed all the Flashgitz t1). A more dakka vs 15 tankabusta in extra granade range and a double shooting with my SSAG.
By the end of T2 i lost 4 gunz, all the gitz, the tankabusta and some 50 grots and he lost 2 and half planes.
Than the SSAG went hail Mary and blasted 2 bug things a turn with the help of the smashaguns.
I spent 4 turn in my deployment, jumping one grot unit at the time for recon.
He assaulted me with everything he had and wasn't enough.
37-25 and won the tournament vs 2nd place for 3(!!!) Points.

All in all, choosing the right secondary is an absolute must. Play the mission and be careful. I jumped my orks t1 once and was basically a missplay. Next time I'll bring 3 SAG and park the boyz alone somewhere to keep for t3-4. Same tankabusta, I'll DS them only vs out of LoS shooting, otherwise park em and let them come at you.

The new Marines are SO broken man....

Let's hope to get some nice point drops and some more tools to deal with them in PA3 and CA. I really wanna use less than 120 models .....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The whole red gobbo thing bugs me more because hes directly Legacy than anything else. Had he not been i probably wouldnt want him anyway but seriously why is a new release legacy only? nobody else has that happen to them.
Black Citadel is a cesspool of new characters, all legal in normal 40k. For other armies and even unaligned
Orks are usually ignored. This isnt being ignored this is just gradually taking gak away and giving nothing new.

It's straight to legacy only because he's limited time sale for like about 1 month. Okay technically guess he could have been non-legend model until christmast but then if they didn't announce he's going to be legend after christmas they would take flak for THAT and if they announce...what's really the difference to now?

Come christmas no more model on sale. And that's legend model. That's where old rules without current models on sale goes after all.

The moment they said he's only limited time sales it was obvious he would be legend rules.


(sucks yes but alas predictable. Problem was GW making it limited time model. Ah well luckily rather poor rules so not that bad)

Yesterday my speed freeks managed a clear win against the Ultramarines (15:6 VP maelstrom) despite me doing a ton of playing errors.
SJD and the two KBB did very well, scrap jet was outplayed by my opponent. Wartrike was bad.
The Morkanaut did ok, the bonebreakers much less so, but mostly due to my fault.
Warbikers probably won me the game with their first turn assault, though their cost plus 4CP to do so is hard to justify when you compare them to da jumping boyz or storm boyz.
Basically I pinned the ultramarines in their deployment zone for the entire game, while Calgar and an unkillable Leviathan ground through my entire army. My gretchin scored objectives all over the board and won the game.

I took some pictures, so I can do a thorough battle report if anyone wants that.

Can one make shooty battlewagons work?

Not really.
Come legacy, all they have access to is 4x Bigshootas (they lost Rokkits), 1 Lobba (why would you wan this in 8th is beyond me, its a worse bigshoota), and 1 Kannon, Killkannon, or Zzap Gun.

Kannon technically is pretty potent with Deathskulls since its basically KMB, 36" over 24 but loses an AP. Other two are sorta meh/bad.

If you want a shooty wagon your best option is forgeworld SupaKannon (60" 2D6 shots S8 Ap2 3D). Its still not great, but it atleast CAN do damage and has the range to avoid close-ranged anti tank stuff. Unfortunately its like ~210pts since it didnt get the battlewagon 40pt drop in the codex...for some reason...
Supakannon i mostly field because BIG GUNZ ARE KEWL but in all seriousness the only time it actually pays off is when i face fliers. Why? MoarDakka. That 3D being the only reason i bother. Still not the best, that'd be lootas or tankbustas, but its a T8 4+ platform instead of T4 tshirts which at that distance is a lot harder to remove so odds are its still alive T2-3 (personally unless my opponent deepsrikes right next to it, which is nowhere near the rest of my army, it usually doesnt die at all)

 Emicrania wrote:


All in all, choosing the right secondary is an absolute must. Play the mission and be careful. I jumped my orks t1 once and was basically a missplay. Next time I'll bring 3 SAG and park the boyz alone somewhere to keep for t3-4. Same tankabusta, I'll DS them only vs out of LoS shooting, otherwise park em and let them come at you.

The new Marines are SO broken man....

Let's hope to get some nice point drops and some more tools to deal with them in PA3 and CA. I really wanna use less than 120 models .....

SAGs are the best. They carry our army.

Sounds like his list wasn’t even nearly optimized either. Infiltrators would have shut your DS down. And thunderfire cannons punish you for hiding.
No eliminataors either? Cause your SAGs would have been screwed then.

The army wasn't optimized for sure. At the same time, I met the same dude 6 months ago but he was playing BA. I won 41-4. A tad different results you might say

 Emicrania wrote:
Just won a one day 22 man ITC tournament this weekend with a triple battalion with SSAG DS, warboss and Badrukk freebooterz backed by 9 smashaguns and 10 Flashgitz, bad moon double weirdboy, 30 shoota and 15 tankabusta with 5 bombs in a Battlewagon. 115 grots helped to give board control.
ment vs 2nd place for 3(!!!) Points.

The new Marines are SO broken man....

Let's hope to get some nice point drops and some more tools to deal with them in PA3 and CA. I really wanna use less than 120 models .....

Yep, it sure is getting really old placing those 60 grots and 90 boyz (the minimum I always use these days), everygoddamn game, On the table, then quickly pack because they die in droves... even with movement trays. Also it locks you in because so little points lefts.

Also nice battle reports man, thanks !

Ain't got a whole lot to add to the discussion, but wanna give Jidmah and Emicrania shout-outs for doing well with Da Boyz. Congratz!

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Can one make shooty battlewagons work?

Short answer: No.

The big shoota would not be worth its points even if you put it on a gretchin and despite being an awesome gun, the killkannon alone does not justify the costs of the gunwagon, especially since you can't shoot out of it. If the gunwagon got a massive point drop, I could see it doing quite well though, 2D6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots is nothing orks can get easily.

 Jidmah wrote:

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Can one make shooty battlewagons work?

Short answer: No.

The big shoota would not be worth its points even if you put it on a gretchin and despite being an awesome gun, the killkannon alone does not justify the costs of the gunwagon, especially since you can't shoot out of it. If the gunwagon got a massive point drop, I could see it doing quite well though, 2D6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots is nothing orks can get easily.

Jiddah I am curious how many points for the Gunwagon if you were a GW rule designer ? 110 all included ? Deathskulls would probably be the best

Personally i think the gunwagon just has the wrong type of guns to justify its performance, cost not really a factor.
Killkannons have 24 range so its gonna get shot by anti-vehicle crap and not much you can do about it, kannons are more of a "i have 15pts lying around and a wagon already" weapon, not worth doublefiring it. Zzaps are just flatout bad.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Personally i think the gunwagon just has the wrong type of guns to justify its performance, cost not really a factor.
Killkannons have 24 range so its gonna get shot by anti-vehicle crap and not much you can do about it, kannons are more of a "i have 15pts lying around and a wagon already" weapon, not worth doublefiring it. Zzaps are just flatout bad.

Yeah I agree, new unit no one needed, bad design, 0 effort from GW, might as well not bother about it.

addnid wrote:
Jiddah I am curious how many points for the Gunwagon if you were a GW rule designer ? 110 all included ? Deathskulls would probably be the best

80+15 I guess? It's a durable, but slow platform with a 24" gun and a borderline useless transport capacity. Heck, helverines might be 155 after CA, so I'm not sure how to price a model that's not moving 14" a turn with two battletank main cannons for arms.

So with four shootas it's 110, but as I said, it's never worth getting those. On Sunday I had tons of them on the buggies and the naut, I think they did a single wound to an intercessor over the course of four turns. If I could drop them from the scrapjet and naut, I would.