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Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Northern California

I've noticed a lot of wargamers refer to the word "cheese" often when talking about overpowered armies, special rules, bending the rules, most efficient combos, and so on. Where did this "cheese" come from? Did somebody just use it one day to describe an op list? like "remember my meltagun cheese list" Or was it even from 40k? like "I pulled some cheese on him on xbox the other day" Does anyone know who or what, invented the "cheese"?

Thanks
Color Sgt. Kell

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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

 Color Sgt. Kell wrote:
I've noticed a lot of wargamers refer to the word "cheese" often when talking about overpowered armies, special rules, bending the rules, most efficient combos, and so on. Where did this "cheese" come from? Did somebody just use it one day to describe an op list? like "remember my meltagun cheese list" Or was it even from 40k? like "I pulled some cheese on him on xbox the other day" Does anyone know who or what, invented the "cheese"?

Thanks
Color Sgt. Kell



Check out the slang definition for the word:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheesy?s=t


Cheap, chintzy, etc.

That is a general slang connotation for the word, so it makes sense to apply it to wargaming saying that playing with a particular unit or army that some consider easy-to-use or not properly balanced in the rules would be 'cheap' or 'chintzy'.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/16 00:01:39


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Dangerous Outrider





Seattle,WA

And Jesus said unto the Pharoahs, "Thine army is cheese!" and flipped the table into the sea. And this was good.

Judges 4:21
   
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British Columbia

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/21867/origins-of-the-gaming-term-cheese-strategy

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Rampton, UK

Its the name of a milk based food product !!
   
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Swan-of-War wrote:
And Jesus said unto the Pharoahs, "Thine army is cheese!" and flipped the table into the sea. And this was good.

Judges 4:21


I lol'd. HARD.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Ahh i remember the days of the Kraft World Eldar dex... much gnashing of teeth there was in those days.

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 Eldarain wrote:
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/21867/origins-of-the-gaming-term-cheese-strategy
So it may come from the Korean video gaming scene, but for the most part people don't know where it came from?
   
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Fixture of Dakka






I invented it, then people started saying it.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
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Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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Dakka Veteran




I remember things being called cheesy in the mid 80s. I'm pretty sure it spawned from that. Perhaps "Would you like some cheese with that whine?" as well.
   
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Southern California, USA

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Portugal

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Cause the armies are fon to due.

I'll go back into my corner now...


-> This is an accurate report of my reaction when I read it. Nice one *claps*

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/16 09:04:05


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The other side of the internet

The term cheese originates back to the 5th century BC. Tibetan monks used the term cheese to describe the day old goat milkings that had gone bad. Genghis Khan discovered the secrets of the monks cheese and took it with him as he cut his way to Europe. It found it's way into use in Arabic markets of the time as a potent glue for broken pots. Cheese thrived in the desert heat until Marco Polo brought it back to Italy to put on spaghetti until someone invented spaghetti sauce. Without a home cheese languished to near the point of extinction, when the French rediscovered it. To them, it was a delicacy and they refined the craft of cheese into it's more block form you see today. When World War 1 broke out, the French had no standing army. As the Germans marched in, the French had to fight them with what ever was sitting around the cafe they lounged at. The only thing they had were cigarets, coffee and cheese. Unwilling to part with nicotine or caffeine, they threw their cheese at the on coming German troops. The cheese proved so devastating, that Germany was utterly defeated and never caused trouble again. This was when America took interest. They stole the cheese from the French when they weren't looking and began the Monsanto Project. In order to defeat the Japanese in the upcoming sequel to World War 1, titled World War 2, they devised nuclear cheese at Area 51. Japan was buried under cheese and the secret was out. The arms race for cheese was on between Russia and America for the largest stockpile of cheese. Russia made good shows with it's Gorbachev, but America was able to take cheese into space, thus guaranteeing their victory. Now cheese is the world's number 1 renewable energy source and is still considered the most versatile tool and deadly weapon. And that's the origin of the term cheese.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

RAGE

Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
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Holy cheesy text wall batman!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/16 10:03:21


 
   
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Mat Ward Newcronz Grey Knightz Cheeze lulz

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/16 10:14:54



 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Cue all the people saying "This is the last straw! Now I'm only going to buy a little bit every now and then!"
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut






Since sources of information on this are not very clear I will add my own personal experience. In terms of something being "cheese", as in unfair, cheap etc, my first encounter with this word in THIS CONTEXT was through playing street fighter alpha series in 1995, 1996 and 1998. There is an elaborate back-story which will take this thread wayyy off topic, but basically if you won a round in the game by using a technique that KO'd your opponent despite them blocking the attack you were given a cheese symbol (exactly like this ). Reportedly, the symbol in the game arouse from talk regarding how people played the game i.e. "man that's a cheese technique", "corner cheeser!" etc. My small circle of friends started referring to "cheap", "chintzy", "doggy" tactics in all manner of games as being "cheese" from around this point.



   
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting





Manila, Philippines

Harold Godwinson cried "Hark! Thine Norman army is cheeseth!" during the Battle of Hastings. Then he died before saying "GG".


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





California

I remeber that now. The certain old school fighting games you could do a certain style of leg sweep and as long as you were backed up to the back of the screen it was almost impossible to win. I remeber the cheese phrase floating around whenever somebody used it.
   
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Philadelphia

Gather round children, while I take you back to yesteryear.

This is a post from Gav Thorpe in 2002 that was posted to the GW Forums. Yes, I actually saved the post, and managed to find it 10 years later. Enjoy:

original definition . (6 Replies). Gw Gav Thorpe[]. 5/9/2002 5:05 (5/9/2002 11:33)

The meaning of the term 'beardy' has in fact changed in recent years from its original definition. When first used in the mid-nineties, by myself and the other asst games developers at the time, it was in fact a double-edged honorofic applied to a game, rules set, person, scenario or similar that would appeal to, or was in the vein of, traditional historical wargaming. These games, played at conventions all across the world, attract a specific kind of player amongst its many devotess – the so-called 'weirdy-beardy'. These acolytes of wargaming, military history and the collecting of militaria often have extensive facial growth, and not uncommonly they also wear sandals. What they are also noted for is their intricate knowledge of history and the games they play, as well as a somewhat bluff passion for their games, bringing experience of the mechanics and (for want of a better term) background. The Citadel Journal was initiated as a beardy publication, in other words to appeal to GW gamers of a similar ilk who wanted in depth rules, added complexity and choice, and more variety, but weren't strung up on officialdom (you know we hardly ever received a letter asking someone if the rules were 'official' or not). While semi-derogatory in a good natured way (implying the need for perhaps more social contact not necessarily involving toy soldiers) it was in no way as damning a term as it is now, and once possessed a certain eccentric charm.

Our Scandiniavian 'Fanatic' events (not to be confused with Jervis' specialist games company) used to hold a Beardy Quiz, which asked all sorts of mind-numbingly detailed questions about the rules and backgrounds, which only a beardy person would know – i.e. one who eats, drinks and sleeps Warhammer or 40k (or usually both).

Cheesy I believe was an americanism brought into the gaming lexicon towards the late nineties as the internet community exploded in size. I believe it derives from the fact that certain (mainly blue) cheeses have a very distinctive whiff, and the idea is that a cheezy army doesn't smell right. Cheesy is also used in a variety of non-gaming contexts, for example 'cheesy grin'. In this context it is taken to mean something purposefully exaggerated or somehow false.

Or were you looking for some different kind of definition ;-)

I once came up with a nice little story metaphor for being cheesy/beardy... BTW this is long - sorry Also, please excuse spelling, wrote this in my youth!

>>
Once upon a time Baby Face (Beard) and Fresh Milk (Cheese) played Warhammer 40k Rogue Trader. They were happy gamers and enjoyed playing scenarios against each other and organizing campaigns. They loved the spirit of the game and even like dressing up as their favorite troopers when they went to Games Day.

Then, one day, a new edition of Warhammer 40k came out and they rejoiced for it was much easier to play. Then disaster struck. The model designers created ‘special characters’. These mighty hero’s were incredibly detailed. Most gamers bought these and enjoyed using them in large battles and campaigns. Fresh Milk enjoyed using them too, in fact he liked them that much he used them every game. Poor old Baby Face kept getting thrashed, and so had to use them too for a while, however to keep in the spirit of the game he stopped using them. Fresh Milk like then that much that he never did stop using them and in his bid for total and unrelenting victory decided that his army had a clone machine.

The next campaign Baby Face and Fresh Milk played was predictably one sided. Fresh Milk’s armies had 40 Abbadon’s (one in each army) all with Terminator bodyguards. With the characters came the exploitation of the rules. Under such conditions Baby Face gave in, his poor Orks didn’t know what to do. So it came to be, that Baby Face decided to fight fire with fire. Mail order suddenly had an order for 45 Gazkull Thrakkas, all for the same address. The campaign protracted into a stalemate.

Games Day came round and Baby Face and Fresh Milk were excited, if it was going to be as good as last year they were in for a treat. However Baby Face and Fresh Milk didn’t go in costume this year and take part in the usual frolics like speed painting. What they really did was pester the games designers about pointless rule loopholes they’d found and then making life hell on the gaming tables by arguing every single rule hick-up until they were blue in the face. That day Baby Face and Fresh Milk had undergone a change which had started along time back. No more would they abide by the spirit of the game, no they had become (fanfare etc..) Beard and Cheese, the first power gamers and shadows of their former selves. The games designers were worried, a new breed of gamer had arrived.

That day they raised their standard and flocks of innocent green gamers flocked to their banner, searching for the magic that is the unbeatable army. After Games Day Beard and Cheese met afterwards to decide what their plan of conquest would be over the fun loving fair players. It was decided that Cheese would go to America and continue the crusade their. Beard would remain in the UK and infiltrate the Games Workshop design studio. Power Gaming had arrived and it wasn’t just restricted to 40k, all the Games Workshop games would be defeated in time and so too would the spirit of the every Workshop player.

It was not to be though. Beard did try to infiltrate the Studio, but he failed. The games designers had elected a champion in these dark times. His name was Jervis Johnson. Using his mighty power he banished Beard to the production factory forever. Beard managed to escape, but not before being tortured by hundreds of thousands of plastic core army infantry.

And so that is the story of the twin evils. Nobody knows what happened to Cheese, it is rumored he has carved out a mighty nation, others say he was destroyed. Beard is still at large. Its up to you lot out there to stop these evils, or we may all suffer the consequences.


*edit: Its also fascinating to read, this much farther along, how the design studio viewed "power gaming" even back then. Seems not a whole lot changes in the Ivory Towers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/17 01:10:53


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I remember some articles in WD a little before that though where they asked readers to send in their most broken army combinations though (for Fantasy)

I think it was written by one of the designers too.

Let me see if I can dig that issue up.

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






United Kingdom

I find it strange that the term is an americanisation, as Americans are not generally known for their cheese making prowess, instead preferring processed cheese or cheese in "aerosol" format (to all nations outside of the US of course). Is the term adopted as some kind of a freudian-slip to compensate for the evident cheese envy America has against Europe's cheese master-craftsmen?

Now the question has me wondering why I haven't seen a protest against Ward, whereby he or his armies are assaulted with cheese spray or else why tournaments don't adopt a "Cheese Trophy" for the cheesiest army. Surely it would be healthier to confront one's psychological dependency on cheese

From what I gather, through the internet and personal experience, some gamers live by the mantra of "Embrace , or embrace your own destruction". In my own experience cheese is best applied to pizza, toast, crackers or onto a bowl of chilli or the like...rather than a philosophy of hobby life and yet it is still true that some armies are more lactose intolerent than others...

Still we must remember that not all cheese is created equal - one man's Edam is another's Brie or Monterey Jack

For all those who embrace cheese - be warned: There may yet come a great revelation whereby meets

Thank you Dakka, now I have a craving for cheese on toast

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Beaver Dam, WI

Being from Wisconsin - the non-processed cheese capital of the U.S. I think I can speak to this.

Think of list building...

A very fluffy but non-competitive list. This is like processed American Cheese. It looks like cheese but it lacks flavor or odor. It may compliment a burger but not much.

A competitive build of a low level codex. This is mild brick cheese. It has a nice taste to it but it will give off a slight odor - though pleasing.


A competitive build of an unbalanced codex. This is medium brick cheese. As it heats up, it starts to give off an odor that is confusing as it is somewhat pleasant but disturbing at the same time.

A build that combines two codexes as allies to take advantage of the best of both unbalanced codexes plus a rules loophole to absolutely dominate in any game. This my friends is aged brick cheese. It tastes great only to the owner as everyone else must endure the smell reminiscent of sweaty hot gym socks. It is just very hard to be around... unless of course you are the owner.

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Swan-of-War wrote:
And Jesus said unto the Pharoahs, "Thine army is cheese!" and flipped the table into the sea. And this was good.
Judges 4:21


Much lol - sig'd!

Swan-of-War wrote:
And Jesus said unto the Pharoahs, "Thine army is cheese!" and flipped the table into the sea. And this was good.
Judges 4:21
 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




Hi folks.
I honestly thought it was a corrupt assimilation of ease and cheat.

Cheat the game with ease.(find a loop hole , imbalance, rules blind spot, etc..)

Cheat easily ' che' - 'ease', cheease, spelling corrected to - 'cheese'.

But I could be wrong....


   
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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







I think the simple answer is that the definition of "cheesy" being
about something "inauthentic" simply got "nouned" into "that
army is cheese".

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 warspawned wrote:
I find it strange that the term is an americanisation, as Americans are not generally known for their cheese making prowess, instead preferring processed cheese or cheese in "aerosol" format (to all nations outside of the US of course). Is the term adopted as some kind of a freudian-slip to compensate for the evident cheese envy America has against Europe's cheese master-craftsmen?


Hey now, don't blame all of us for those abominations. Most people know the difference between real cheese and "cheez." It's a lot like the American beer scene...there are a few large producers that produce vast quantities of crap and strew it about nationwide, but just about anywhere you can find local product created by people who actually care about things like "flavor."
   
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Flashy Flashgitz






I remember a long time ago I was playing Primal Rage for the SNES. I was using Blizzard and I was using some sort of forward-jumping punch attack that could not be defended against. I ran this dude into the corner and pummeled him for two rounds and then this little "no cheese" symbol(like a piece of cheese with a bar through it) popped up next to my name and life bar.

That's the first time I've ever seen or heard the term "cheese" as it's used now. What I was doing was clearly cheesy too, I remember my friends being pretty pissed. I did the same thing in Street Fighter II sometimes when I was on a losing streak.

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