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How far can they move and shoot without snap shooting? I have seen things for vehicles in the rulebook but (either I am missing it) none for the people riding in them. Page numbers please guys thanks!Thanks for the help!

12" for themselves as they're fast. Well it says they can shoot two, but Raiders can only have one weapon.

6" for their passengers as they count as moving that far (so you'll be snap firing heavy weapons) and being fast doesn't change that for them.

Splinter weapons arn't heavy though. So would they still be snap firing or full BS? Page number please I just want to varify as I truly cannot find the stupid answer in the Rulebook and would like to see it for my own eyes.


Thanks again guys!

Fire Points, the end of the second paragraph on pg78. The fast vehicles not saying anything about it is on 83.

And the splinter cannon is half the time, but you can easily just shoot it as the assault version

So can someone please explain to me how the hell being a fast, weak, low armored vehicles, army can only move 6" to shoot; whats the freaking pay off??

I am just curious how people get around it? over extend yourselves and pray you can come out? WWP are a joke now no assalt, a stiff breeze knocks over our vehicles and if a Daemon even looks at us we run? Help

They snap fire from 7-12". I usually give my raiders with Warriors inside splinter racks, so at least they count as being TL. It doesn't affect splinter cannons though, but with a haemy in there with them they can't take one anyway because I have less than 10 in the squad.

Snap fire it is then. Ill just have to work around it. Thanks for the help.

Take Venoms instead. Raiders are garbage now. The only transport that's worth it besides a raider is a Tantalus. They are awesome.

Snapfire 7-12".

Raiders are not garbage. I love the venom for its anti-infantry shots, but you need a mix. Splinter rack raiders with 10 warriors are pretty good... as long as they don't blow up and kill your squad, but that's a problem with the whole army, not the transport.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Take Venoms instead. Raiders are garbage now. The only transport that's worth it besides a raider is a Tantalus. They are awesome.

Raiders are not garbage. They have reasonable AT ability. They are big and can give other units complete LOS obscurity. They also have 3 hull points, so they are more likely to be around at the end of the game. 10 men means you can transport grots, incubi, wracks or wyches in greater numbers than 5.

So if the Raider moves 7-12 it can only fire snap shots?
If it moves 6 does it and the passengers fire at full BS?

Raider can shoot at normal BS so long as it can actually shoot, move or not (you flat out/ turbo boost/whatever in the shooting phase instead of shooting). The passengers snap fire if it moves more than 6.

Raider + Splinter rack w/ 10 warriors all with splinter rifles snap fire for TL6

 Exergy wrote:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Take Venoms instead. Raiders are garbage now. The only transport that's worth it besides a raider is a Tantalus. They are awesome.

Raiders are not garbage. They have reasonable AT ability. They are big and can give other units complete LOS obscurity. They also have 3 hull points, so they are more likely to be around at the end of the game. 10 men means you can transport grots, incubi, wracks or wyches in greater numbers than 5.

The Raiders "hover" so they never block off LoS completely from infantry.

Lol, not sure if you are serious or not but Dark Eldar don't care about Hull Points because they blow up like 90% of the time when shot at.

Transport wise I agree with you.

 Makutsu wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Take Venoms instead. Raiders are garbage now. The only transport that's worth it besides a raider is a Tantalus. They are awesome.

Raiders are not garbage. They have reasonable AT ability. They are big and can give other units complete LOS obscurity. They also have 3 hull points, so they are more likely to be around at the end of the game. 10 men means you can transport grots, incubi, wracks or wyches in greater numbers than 5.

The Raiders "hover" so they never block off LoS completely from infantry.

Lol, not sure if you are serious or not but Dark Eldar don't care about Hull Points because they blow up like 90% of the time when shot at.

Transport wise I agree with you.

a lot of people are taking autocannons, missile launchers or other low strength weapons. 1 Glance no longer has a chance to kill a raider and a pen from an AP3+ weapon only has a 1/3 chance of blowing it up.

Raiders are great at blocking LOS to Venoms and Reavers which both need it.

Raiders are not garbage. They have reasonable AT ability.

In 6th they're garbage. You're paying 70pts for the durability of a Venom which is cheaper and a weak anti-tank gun which is essentially a missile launcher vs. most vehicles. Anti-tank for DE come from other places in the list.

They are big and can give other units complete LOS obscurity.

Why spend 70pts for that when you can get that cheaper in other ways. Or you can spend a little more and get an ADL if that concerns you?

They also have 3 hull points, so they are more likely to be around at the end of the game.

Lolz. I think in all the games I've played I think I've had a raider survive an entire game maybe once, or twice. Hull points don't matter as anything that's AP2 or AP1 and penentrates torches them on a 4+ or 3+.

10 men means you can transport grots, incubi, wracks or wyches in greater numbers than 5.

Firstly, you can only put 5 grotesques in a raider. Secondly, who is fielding wracks and incubi these days? You are over paying for a transport that's crap..then stick units that are now crap in them? Grotesques work better maxed out on foot with good character support. Wyches should be fielded in smaller squads of 5 as it requires more firepower and resources to kill two units of 5 instead of one unit of 10. Why spend 70pts on a transport and fill it with 10 wyches...only to have it blow up and on average you lose half the squad when it explodes? Raiders are only good at two things: Sucking, and dying. Spend those 70pts in something else.

a lot of people are taking autocannons, missile launchers or other low strength weapons.

Low strength weapons?! A ML pens on a 3+ and the vehicle is open topped. Hull points don't matter at that point because anything that is truly anti-tank is going to kill them with ease. Autocannons mince them as swiping 3 hullpoints off a AV10 vehicle is easy.

1 Glance no longer has a chance to kill a raider and a pen from an AP3+ weapon only has a 1/3 chance of blowing it up.

But most armies will smoke them regardless. If there are any lascannons or multimeltas in an opponents army, your raiders won't live long. Same with plasmaguns...which have seen an increase of being taken.

Raiders are great at blocking LOS to Venoms and Reavers which both need it.

Venoms can manage on their own as they are small and have a low profile. Reavers don't need it as you can simply just deploy them in cover anyways as they ignore terrain tests completely. Or you can reserve your reavers as they don't always need to start on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lol, not sure if you are serious or not but Dark Eldar don't care about Hull Points because they blow up like 90% of the time when shot at.

Agreed. You may as well as forget about Hull Points with DE transports.

Raider + Splinter rack w/ 10 warriors all with splinter rifles snap fire for TL6

You are paying 170-180pts for that. Not the best investment...especially since you lose most of the squad if the transport explodes. DE troops shouldn't cost more than 125pts. The extra 10 points you spend on splinter racks for a snap fire buff that will yield a marginal extra number of hits isn't worth it IMHO.

I have lots of luck using raiders, they are great, and have yet to disappoint me.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

Raiders are not garbage. They have reasonable AT ability.

In 6th they're garbage. You're paying 70pts for the durability of a Venom which is cheaper and a weak anti-tank gun which is essentially a missile launcher vs. most vehicles. Anti-tank for DE come from other places in the list.

They are big and can give other units complete LOS obscurity.

Why spend 70pts for that when you can get that cheaper in other ways. Or you can spend a little more and get an ADL if that concerns you?

They also have 3 hull points, so they are more likely to be around at the end of the game.

Lolz. I think in all the games I've played I think I've had a raider survive an entire game maybe once, or twice. Hull points don't matter as anything that's AP2 or AP1 and penentrates torches them on a 4+ or 3+.

10 men means you can transport grots, incubi, wracks or wyches in greater numbers than 5.

Firstly, you can only put 5 grotesques in a raider. Secondly, who is fielding wracks and incubi these days? You are over paying for a transport that's crap..then stick units that are now crap in them? Grotesques work better maxed out on foot with good character support. Wyches should be fielded in smaller squads of 5 as it requires more firepower and resources to kill two units of 5 instead of one unit of 10. Why spend 70pts on a transport and fill it with 10 wyches...only to have it blow up and on average you lose half the squad when it explodes? Raiders are only good at two things: Sucking, and dying. Spend those 70pts in something else.

a lot of people are taking autocannons, missile launchers or other low strength weapons.

Low strength weapons?! A ML pens on a 3+ and the vehicle is open topped. Hull points don't matter at that point because anything that is truly anti-tank is going to kill them with ease. Autocannons mince them as swiping 3 hullpoints off a AV10 vehicle is easy.

1 Glance no longer has a chance to kill a raider and a pen from an AP3+ weapon only has a 1/3 chance of blowing it up.

But most armies will smoke them regardless. If there are any lascannons or multimeltas in an opponents army, your raiders won't live long. Same with plasmaguns...which have seen an increase of being taken.

Raiders are great at blocking LOS to Venoms and Reavers which both need it.

Venoms can manage on their own as they are small and have a low profile. Reavers don't need it as you can simply just deploy them in cover anyways as they ignore terrain tests completely. Or you can reserve your reavers as they don't always need to start on the table.

1. Raiders have better durability than venoms, they have 3 hull points to venoms 2.
Dark Lances are AP2, making them much better AT than a missile launcher which you note in your 3rd line but somehow ignored in your first line.

2. ADLs dont move, raiders do. A raider can be a mobile LOS block for venoms or jetbikes.

3. I wonder how you only having a raider surive to the end of the game is relevent when you say you dont take raider because they are garabage. "I have never had a cronos surivie to the end of the game(took one twice ever) o man their durability must suck."

4 You cannot put any grotesques in a venom, and a large squad will cost a ton and be very slow. I take wracks, they are good scoring troops that start with FNP, T4 and can be tough as hell to get off an objective when they gtg.

5. By low strength weapons I was refering to multilasers, telsa spam, scatter lasers, psibacks, assault cannons, big shootas. People are hull stripping rhinos and even with the lower armor and open topped i lose most of my vehicles to hull stripping too. (about 60%, 40% blow up). Autocannons and the like will generate 3 pens for every glance and only 1 pen in 3 is likely to blow one up. That means that for every 6 shots that hit, you strip 4 hull points and get one explode. Averages being what they are a lot of raiders are going to survive till the 3rd hull point is gone.

6. Sure lascannons will do a number on a raider, venom or ravager. Most people dont run enough lascannons to shoot down 10 vehicles in a turn. Few run enough las cannons to take out even 2-3, so they end up using other weapons. Plasma guns, melta guns and multi meltas are all very short ranged. Your vehicles need not be that close.



Math hammer on autocannons
6 hits, 1 glance, 3 pens of which 1 is an explodes.
chance that an AV10 open topped vehicle will explode on the first damage result= 25%
chance that an AV10 open topped vehicle will explode by or on the second damage result = .25 + (1-.25)*.25 = 43%
chance that an AV10 open topped vehicle will explode by or on the third damage result = .25 + (1-.25)(1-.25)*.25 = 57%

This means that against autocannons, 75% of raiders or venoms will survive the first damage result. 57% of raiders will survive the second damage result. Venoms only have 1 hull point so they always die to the second damage result. 57% is to say most of the raider will die to hull point stripping rather than explodes and will take more shots to take down than a venom.

The numbers are worse for missile launchers, much worse for las canons but better for multilasers scatter lasers and much much better for heavy bolters and pulse rifles, bolters etc.

A meltagun will kill a raider very quickly, then again it will also kill a land raider very quickly. I dont see how comparing a a raiders lack of suriveability to melta guns make them suck when almost all vehicles die to melta almost as easily.

Raiders aren't as good as Venoms imo, but they do have a purpose. They certainly aren't garbage.

I like them as gunboats with warriors with splinter racks and nightshields. The nightshield helps stay out of rapid fire and melta range from infantry units.

I also use them when I run my HQ with grots. I've found that I prefer 4 grots in a raider over larger squads on foot.

Plus, they come with DLs. Dark Lances aren't great, but they are still handy to have on a mobile platform.

1. Raiders have better durability than venoms, they have 3 hull points to venoms 2.

No they don't they are one and the same for durability because they both share the same chances at getting blown up. When most anti-tank weapons blow them out of the sky one extra hull point doesn't matter.

Dark Lances are AP2, making them much better AT than a missile launcher which you note in your 3rd line but somehow ignored in your first line.

Regardless of AP2, the darklance..vs. AV12 or less it really isn't any better than a missile launcher. In that case...the small amount of DLs equates to the effectiveness of missile launchers. DLs are overrated and always have been

2. ADLs dont move, raiders do. A raider can be a mobile LOS block for venoms or jetbikes.

Why do I need to block LOS for these things when they take their cover with them when they move? Additionally, I don't know about you, but unless you are modeling for advantage..a raider can't completely block LOS to a venom.

3. I wonder how you only having a raider surive to the end of the game is relevent when you say you dont take raider because they are garabage. "I have never had a cronos surivie to the end of the game(took one twice ever) o man their durability must suck."

To claim that they are garbage, I sort had to field them at one point to reach that conclusion, right? All my 6th edition test games lead me to that conclusion. So now my list doesn't field a single one and I have more success than I did when I had them in my lists. They are point sinks now. Worthless point sinks. I can get better stuff in other list choices.

4 You cannot put any grotesques in a venom, and a large squad will cost a ton and be very slow.

Why would I want to...or need to? They aren't any slower than you moving 6" -12" a turn with your raiders. Grotesques can run, and a large squad of them imposes good board control. I've ran 10 grots with character support before in several test lists. It's a hard unit to shift. Being in the center of the table by turn 2 is really all you need to be able to strike at most people's armies...that is of course they deploy away or move away...but that's sort of the plan anyways. You are dictating their choices. There is little that can directly engage them and there is little that they fear. Now that massed Str 10 is more rare, it's even better.

I take wracks, they are good scoring troops that start with FNP, T4 and can be tough as hell to get off an objective when they gtg.

Wracks are overrated. To be scoring you have to pay the Haemmy tax. Hammey's are just as pointless as raiders now. I'd only field them in big games. Other than a camp unit, wracks are worthless. They have below average combat ability and what little guns they can take depend on the size of the squad...and it has a crap range. I don't know about you, but in the uber shooty 6th edition, they don't last very long. I'll spend my points else where.

5. By low strength weapons I was refering to multilasers, telsa spam, scatter lasers, psibacks, assault cannons, big shootas. People are hull stripping rhinos and even with the lower armor and open topped i lose most of my vehicles to hull stripping too. (about 60%, 40% blow up). Autocannons and the like will generate 3 pens for every glance and only 1 pen in 3 is likely to blow one up. That means that for every 6 shots that hit, you strip 4 hull points and get one explode. Averages being what they are a lot of raiders are going to survive till the 3rd hull point is gone.

That's the difference between what you face and what I face. I face more plasmaguns, multimeltas, and lascannons. Why shoot an autocannon when plasmaguns and lascannons do a better job and more quickly?

6. Sure lascannons will do a number on a raider, venom or ravager. Most people dont run enough lascannons to shoot down 10 vehicles in a turn.

They don't need to down 10 in one turn. They just need to down the ones that have units in them. Once your units lose their ride, they are in trouble. DE die much quicker in this edition...as rapid fire weapons can reach farther.

Few run enough lascannons to take out even 2-3, so they end up using other weapons.

Few? Razor lasplas spam, vendetta spam, blob lascannon spam, saber platforms, the list goes on. Those are pretty frequently common lists.

Plasma guns, melta guns and multi meltas are all very short ranged.

Plasmaguns are en vogue right now because they gained range with the change to the rapid fire weapons and power weapons got nerfed. Plasma is much more flexible now..being a decent ranged anti armor gun (rapes AV10 open-topped vehicles) and anti 2+ save gun. They don't have to get that close. They have a 30" reach. (even farther if these plasmaguns are bike mounted) Tell me where you plan on moving your raiders to avoid it...yet still be in range to shoot with your passengers with your clever splinter rack trick? If you have range to them...they have range to you. Same thing with multimeltas...

bunch of math

The thing is that you are assuming most people will send their massed autocannons at them. Where are these massed autocannon armies? The only real str 7 heavy armies I've faced are loota spam ADL orks. The rest are definitely packing MM's, Plasma weapons, and Lascannons. All of which are going to target AV10 open topped stuff as it's almost a sure thing it's going to blow if you can penetrate. +2 to the table for AP2...+3 to the table for AP1. This isn't complicated to make the decision to shoot with those weapons first.

A meltagun will kill a raider very quickly, then again it will also kill a land raider very quickly. I dont see how comparing a a raiders lack of suriveability to melta guns make them suck when almost all vehicles die to melta almost as easily.

See above. +2 to the damage table isn't as bad as +3. Vs. Melta, Landraiders edge out the Raider in survivability. Additionally, to get the best result with melta vs. AV14 you have to be in half range. Vs a AV10 raider...you do not. Long range works just as good.


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Raiders aren't as good as Venoms imo, but they do have a purpose. They certainly aren't garbage.

They have no purpose. You can take other units in the book that are far more useful and have the same role.

I like them as gunboats with warriors with splinter racks and nightshields. The nightshield helps stay out of rapid fire and melta range from infantry units.

Nightshields are nice, and I use them when I have the points, but with the gunboat strategy, I don't see how nightshields work. How are they protecting you when you have to get within, what is essentially, a 30" range to your intended target? With pre-measuring, a savvy opponent can still shoot your raiders regardless of nightshields or not. Especially, if those weapons are mounted themselves.

I also use them when I run my HQ with grots. I've found that I prefer 4 grots in a raider over larger squads on foot.

Why? Your assault speed is fundamentally the same unless you move flat out towards them right away...but then you are putting an AV10 vehicle into range of your opponent. I guess it's a preference thing. However, I don't see how 4 grots + a character is all that effective. 10+ several characters is very effective.

Plus, they come with DLs. Dark Lances aren't great, but they are still handy to have on a mobile platform.

Wyches with haywire are far better at anti tank as well as the DE flyers. I have zero DL in my list unless I'm playing bigger games. Lately, I haven't felt the need for them. Last game I play vs. an army with 2 contemptors in lucius pods, 1 contemptor mortis and a landraider redeemer. I still won that game without taking any DLs. The only Dark Light weapons I had in my list was 2 blasters (from two units of 5 warriors with a blaster a piece) and a blast pistol (The Duke was my Warlord). Reavers, and haywire took care of my armored problems.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

1. Raiders have better durability than venoms, they have 3 hull points to venoms 2.

No they don't they are one and the same for durability because they both share the same chances at getting blown up. When most anti-tank weapons blow them out of the sky one extra hull point doesn't matter.

Perhaps your meta is different than mine, but even against the anti tank weapons mentioned, Raiders are still more survivable than Venoms.

As stated against str 7 AP3+ (autocannons, tesla, quad guns) A raider has a 56% chance to be alive after 2 glances or pens. A venom has 0% chance
against str 8 ap3+(missile launchers, hades autocannons) A raider has a 54% chance to be alive after 2 glances or pens. A venom has 0% chance
against str 7 ap2(plasma guns) A raider has a 39% chance to be alive after 2 glances or pens. A venom has 0% chance
against str 9 ap2(lascannons) A raider has a 34% chance to be alive after 2 glances or pens. A venom has 0% chance
against str 8 ap1(melta and railrifles) A raider has a 22% chance to be alive after 2 glances or pens. A venom has 0% chance

against str 6 ap3+(scatter+multilasers, megashootas, megabolter, assault cannons) A raider has a 60% chance to be alive after 2 glances or pens. A venom has 0% chance.

for lascannons and plasmaguns you have more 34-39% chance of being alive after getting shot, hit and damaged twice. That will require additional shots, hits and damages to destroy. Hence more survivable.
Even against melta and railrifles, A raider has a 22% chance to live after 2 damage results. If alive it is almost certainly immobile and gunless but none the less alive.

The melta is over half range, inside half range no vehicle has much of a shot.

Perhaps your meta is different than mine, but even against the anti tank weapons mentioned, Raiders are still more survivable than Venoms.

It would seem that way. Let's assume your premise is correct...and they are more survivable (barely). They are still garbage because they have one gun (an average one at best) and you are still overpaying for something that is a terrible transport as having larger troop squads only takes points away from the units that actually do the most damage. Like I said, spending more than 125pts on a troops choice is a waste of points.

bunch of math

Again, empirical evidence in over nearly 100 games since 6th has been released with my DE has shown me this. Venoms: 2 great guns, built in invuln save...less points, but more useful. Raider: one gun, you have to purchase the invuln save which makes it more expensive, or purchase splinter racks for an extra 24" poison shot or 2...makes it more expensive, purchase a bigger unit of troops to make it worth while...but still dies just as easily...but you've now committed 170-180pts of your army to death. Vs. skipping the Raider and taking more efficient troops and getting your anti-tank somewhere else. One DL shot...or using them as splinter rack gun boats is dumb when I can get more firepower with venoms for a cheaper cost that can fire to full effect 12" with two guns vs. one plink shot at something. I'd rather invest in better anti-tank alternatives and not doom my troops on a vehicle that has no real value anymore. It's sad, because I have 6 of them...but it's reality in uber shooty 6th edition. Venoms are the only transport choice for troops..and a Tantalus is a superior choice for other units (like trueborn).

Well since you don't want you raiders, can I have them?

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
I'd rather invest in better anti-tank alternatives and not doom my troops on a vehicle that has no real value anymore.

I'm genuinely curious what sort of anti tank you run in at the 1850/2k level.

I figure Ravagers and Reavers? Or do you put your wyches on venoms with haywire, or leave them on foot?

Well since you don't want you raiders, can I have them?

Nein. I still use them in big games where points efficiency ceases to matter much.

I'm genuinely curious what sort of anti tank you run in at the 1850/2k level.

I don't play 1850pts. around in my parts. It's either 1500pts or 2000pts. Mostly we play 2000pts. No ravagers. I run 6 x 2 Reaver squads with dual heat lances, dual cluster caltrops and 3 x 5 wyches with haywire and no other upgrades to them mounted in Venoms. and 2 x 5 Warriors with Blasters in Venoms. Then I run a large beast pack lead by the Baron (they are anti-tank backup as they can put the hurt on rear AV10). The Duke is my second HQ which allows him to buff essentially 6 units in my army. Hands down he is the best HQ besides the Baron now. In all my games, that has been plenty of anti-tank. Wyches are the most efficient tank killers the DE have. Hitting on 3's vs. vehicles and essentially stripping a hull point on a 2+ is better than any gun the DE can take. With the other big threats in my army, it usually keeps the wyches alive.

Unfortunately Wyches only destroy vehicles in the assault phase, so whatever gets out has pretty much free reign on your opponent's turn.

They're still okay, but it's not ideal.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
[
I don't play 1850pts. around in my parts. It's either 1500pts or 2000pts. Mostly we play 2000pts. No ravagers. I run 6 x 2 Reaver squads with dual heat lances, dual cluster caltrops and 3 x 5 wyches with haywire and no other upgrades to them mounted in Venoms. and 2 x 5 Warriors with Blasters in Venoms. Then I run a large beast pack lead by the Baron (they are anti-tank backup as they can put the hurt on rear AV10). The Duke is my second HQ which allows him to buff essentially 6 units in my army. Hands down he is the best HQ besides the Baron now. In all my games, that has been plenty of anti-tank. Wyches are the most efficient tank killers the DE have. Hitting on 3's vs. vehicles and essentially stripping a hull point on a 2+ is better than any gun the DE can take. With the other big threats in my army, it usually keeps the wyches alive.

Duke and Baron are a great tandem, but where does the Duke go in your list?

I'm not sold on Wyches for anti tank duty. Driving into close range to strip one hull point doesn't sound like a good time for the ladies.

My group has only really played at 1k or 2k lately. At 1k, I have zero raiders and 3 venoms. At 2k, I have 5 Venoms and 3 Raiders... so at least we can agree that the higher the point value, the more useful (or less bad ) raiders are.

My main anti tank is Ravagers though, no matter what the point value is.

Duke and Baron are a great tandem, but where does the Duke go in your list?

The Duke rides (in style) with 10 trueborn with 2 splinter cannons in a Tantalus.

Unfortunately Wyches only destroy vehicles in the assault phase, so whatever gets out has pretty much free reign on your opponent's turn.

They're still okay, but it's not ideal.

You forget, that each unit can each throw a grenade in the shooting phase as well. Also, their presence prevents people from rushing towards your lines as it doesn't take much to get an assault off once your opponent has committed to the center line of the table. You can draw an opponent in by placing objectives either at the center line or more towards your zone. That forces the opponent to commit to taking them...which shortens the distance the wyches need to travel. Also, I find that my bikes and the large unit of beasts draws fire away from my wyches. Remember, the goal isn't to kill all the enemies vehicles...just focus on the ones that do the most damage to your army as a whole. Those are the ones you focus the wyches on. However, that will always change depending on the army you are facing. Generally, most people aren't running as many vehicles as they used to either. That means the 60 poison shots from the venoms, the 3+ poison shots from the trueborn, the bladevane + cluster caltrops, and the 12 heavy pulse disintegrator shots are working over anything with feet.


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so at least we can agree that the higher the point value, the more useful (or less bad ) raiders are.

I'm talking in games bigger than 2k.

I've found that people often go for my raiders first. It's probably part of the Dark Lance Myth

 Red Viper wrote:
I'm not sold on Wyches for anti tank duty. Driving into close range to strip one hull point doesn't sound like a good time for the ladies.

While I also prefer long range AT, but I think you got the numbers wrong. You get 1 haywire "shot" during shooting phase, you have a BS4 chance at hitting, then 2/3 a chance to get a glance, 1/6 a chance to get a penetration. And then you get into combat, which would be either against WS0 or WS1, both would mean you'd at least get 3 haywires in... So I'd say you have a pretty good chance at taking 3 hull points through haywire glancing... Unless there is some maths that I'm missing...?