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I have 20 of them from IoB sets and I'd like to think they are still a useful unit. I'm thinking 10 w/ musician to march alongside my spear blocks and flank whatever my spears run into.

So....

What does everyone think of Swordmasters as they exist in the new army book?

How would you now compare them to White Lions? (Not Phoenix Guard, they are too different for a real comparison)

How would you run them in an army now? In games less than 1000pts or games over 1000pts?

 UltraTacSgt wrote:
I have 20 of them from IoB sets and I'd like to think they are still a useful unit. I'm thinking 10 w/ musician to march alongside my spear blocks and flank whatever my spears run into.

So....

What does everyone think of Swordmasters as they exist in the new army book?

How would you now compare them to White Lions? (Not Phoenix Guard, they are too different for a real comparison)

How would you run them in an army now? In games less than 1000pts or games over 1000pts?

Take 20, add character, go 7 wide.
28 attacks at WS6 and S5. Plus the Character.
All good.

-Matt

I would MSU them in single rank units of 5-7 models.

Swordmasters get diminishing returns due to supporting ranks only providing one attack. This plus the White Lions now having heavy armour means that White Lions are better for ranked units.

Swordmasters retain 5+ unit size which hints at their intended role as 'detachments' intended to flank engaged opponents.

 Orlanth wrote:
I would MSU them in single rank units of 5-7 models.

Swordmasters get diminishing returns due to supporting ranks only providing one attack. This plus the White Lions now having heavy armour means that White Lions are better for ranked units.

Swordmasters retain 5+ unit size which hints at their intended role as 'detachments' intended to flank engaged opponents.

The problem with that is you are panic testing after 2 losses, and with ~10-14 attacks (no re-rolls anymore) you're unlikely to win combat.
If you are going to lose combat, buy chariots. They'll do the same job, but are faster and might get away when they lose. They also pack ASF attacks and before ASF impact hits, and take up less space so give more of your main units attacks and take less attacks back in return.

-Matt

Plus: you free up a lot of victory points for free. You could focus on these smaller units and then go points denial to win.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I would MSU them in single rank units of 5-7 models.

Swordmasters get diminishing returns due to supporting ranks only providing one attack. This plus the White Lions now having heavy armour means that White Lions are better for ranked units.

Swordmasters retain 5+ unit size which hints at their intended role as 'detachments' intended to flank engaged opponents.

The problem with that is you are panic testing after 2 losses, and with ~10-14 attacks (no re-rolls anymore) you're unlikely to win combat.
If you are going to lose combat, buy chariots. They'll do the same job, but are faster and might get away when they lose. They also pack ASF attacks and before ASF impact hits, and take up less space so give more of your main units attacks and take less attacks back in return.

-Matt

You dont understand what Swordmasters in MSU are for.

You need them on the flank, hit a flank on the second turn of combat for 10 S5 attacks. While it will be nice to send them in on the first turn most opponents wont march in to an L shaped ambush. Attacking corners of opponents in line assaults is what Chariots do.

They might panic test from casualties as they are T3 flank hitters, but will be in range of general and BSB (or you have bigger problems). However they are very likely to win combat as they are five flanking models doing extra damage to back up a high elf melee block. If they don't then again you have bigger problems.

The only time they charge anything alone is if you want to clear up some chaff, often units no bigger than they are and a lot worse armed.

High elves need to win on casualties caused, cause so many hits that return attacks don't hurt so much. The opponent will be able to take more models and will likely have autostubborn, high elves can win the combats doe to casualties but need something to keep the odds in their favour. Swordmasters are excellent for that.

The entire high elf infantry line is based on winning combat not surviving via auto-stubborn, Swordmasters lose out to White Lions on every rank except the first, so they are single rank attackers, that means a flank attacker and explains why they are unit size 5+. Yes they dont get rerolls, but they hit most stuff, including many factions characters, on 3+. Swordmasters always were a glass hammer, so why rank them up?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Plus: you free up a lot of victory points for free. You could focus on these smaller units and then go points denial to win.

Points denial, against high elves, really? So you split up to play the manoeuver game - cant catch me....

Who has the eagles? You can be brought to combat then tag teamed to death.
Wood Elves can get away with this, but its a poor choice strategy for anyone else.

 Orlanth wrote:


You dont understand what Swordmasters in MSU are for.

You need them on the flank, hit a flank on the second turn of combat for 10 S5 attacks. While it will be nice to send them in on the first turn most opponents wont march in to an L shaped ambush. Attacking corners of opponents in line assaults is what Chariots do.

But the flank role can also be filled by chariots.
Would you rather have swordmasters who can only go into the flank, or chariots, which can go into the front or flank?

I would flank with chariots on the 2nd round of combat if at all possible. +1 for charge and +1 for flank, with D6 auto hits + crew + mounts.

Of course, you still need to deal with steadfast, which neither of these does very well (but magic and fire phoenix help prior to combat).

-Matt

I really don't like them this edition. Loving horde white lions w 2 WL chariots per horde.
Stubborn chariots are very nice.
Chariots will fill the role SMs use to play IMHO.

HawaiiMatt wrote:


But the flank role can also be filled by chariots.
Would you rather have swordmasters who can only go into the flank, or chariots, which can go into the front or flank?

Take both, I do.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I would flank with chariots on the 2nd round of combat if at all possible. +1 for charge and +1 for flank, with D6 auto hits + crew + mounts.

Chariots are 10cm deep and are thus subject to countercharge, and can be rather unwieldy. Also the impact hits equal one hack from each swordmaster, but the swordmasters keep on hacking.
I like chariots but I find their best use is in clipping, you dont need a lot of frontage of the enemy to get the chariot in with full effect. So you can cover the rest of the frontage with your White Lions or Phoenix Guard.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Of course, you still need to deal with steadfast, which neither of these does very well (but magic and fire phoenix help prior to combat).
-Matt

the High elves usual answer to steadfast is do inflict so many hits they win the combat, preferably offering only minimal opportunity to hit back. Eventually the opponent loses enough ranks to lose stubborn or fails a break test. Flanking doesnt help here unless you set up something big. However now High Elves get Hand of Gork a heavy flanking charge is possible on the 2nd turn.

I am including 2 units of 10 in my next list to see how they perform.

 Orlanth wrote:


Points denial, against high elves, really? So you split up to play the manoeuver game - cant catch me....

Who has the eagles? You can be brought to combat then tag teamed to death.
Wood Elves can get away with this, but its a poor choice strategy for anyone else.

Yes, really. Eagles cannot do anything vs. points denial as most armies have any sort of viable ranged attacks to easily take them down (even if it's only NG archers!) and thus free up more VP. Kill the multiple small SM units, then keep running away and as late as you can, tie the enemy up until the game ends. The only reliable ranged threat HE have is magic.

My eagles have always made their points back.

Even my old Eagle Noble made his points back in most of my games.

Granded, that was the old book, before we got even more options for speed and range...

 Orlanth wrote:
I would MSU them in single rank units of 5-7 models.

Swordmasters get diminishing returns due to supporting ranks only providing one attack. This plus the White Lions now having heavy armour means that White Lions are better for ranked units.

Swordmasters retain 5+ unit size which hints at their intended role as 'detachments' intended to flank engaged opponents.

White Lions always had heavy armor...

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


Points denial, against high elves, really? So you split up to play the manoeuver game - cant catch me....

Who has the eagles? You can be brought to combat then tag teamed to death.
Wood Elves can get away with this, but its a poor choice strategy for anyone else.

Yes, really. Eagles cannot do anything vs. points denial as most armies have any sort of viable ranged attacks to easily take them down (even if it's only NG archers!) and thus free up more VP. Kill the multiple small SM units, then keep running away and as late as you can, tie the enemy up until the game ends. The only reliable ranged threat HE have is magic.

Hold on because I suggest that I folks take small units of Swordmasters doesn't mean I endorse filling the whole army with MSU, in fact you cant, most high elf elites are minimum 10+ which is too big for single rank MSU skirmish or pile in units. MSU as a full strategy is dead, some MSU support is a good idea. Two units of five Swordmasters with musician is 150pts, leaving more than enough points or some nasty stuff even in a 2k list. The other MSU units of note are Reavers and I wouldn't take too many of those either. High elves can have a number of small harasser units and some big blocks in the new army book even in modest size games, that versatility is powerful.

Back to eagles, remember they are great at hiding, they have a low profile as units go, you can conceal therm behind cavalry. Certainly don't wave them around in front of archers, get in close then bring them forward to threaten flanks, redirect etc. The only bad news is that I can no longer take four solo eagles anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I would MSU them in single rank units of 5-7 models.

Swordmasters get diminishing returns due to supporting ranks only providing one attack. This plus the White Lions now having heavy armour means that White Lions are better for ranked units.

Swordmasters retain 5+ unit size which hints at their intended role as 'detachments' intended to flank engaged opponents.

White Lions always had heavy armor...

White Lions had light armour until relatively recently, IIRC they only changed up in the previous army book, all previous ones had light armour (and Lion Cloak) and the older miniatures reflect that.

I still find 20 SM to be very effective. With the right buffs, they will kill anything and are hard to kill themselves. I keep them going with Regrowth to and boost to T5.

WL are certainly nice, but those SM still have a great fear factor to them. 3 ranks of attacks at S5 is still really good.

 Sir Blayse wrote:
I still find 20 SM to be very effective. With the right buffs, they will kill anything and are hard to kill themselves. I keep them going with Regrowth to and boost to T5.

WL are certainly nice, but those SM still have a great fear factor to them. 3 ranks of attacks at S5 is still really good.

Same here. I run either 20 x 3 with a character, or 21 x 3. Works very well. Nothing against white lions, they are great too, but 28-29 STR 5 attacks is nothing to sneeze at. Sure they need survival support, but lots of things do, and very little in our army has the same sheer amount of attack output saturation as SM's.

-- Haight

I'm running two units of 10, but I am tempted on dropping them down to two units of 7.

Haight wrote:

 Sir Blayse wrote:
I still find 20 SM to be very effective. With the right buffs, they will kill anything and are hard to kill themselves. I keep them going with Regrowth to and boost to T5.

WL are certainly nice, but those SM still have a great fear factor to them. 3 ranks of attacks at S5 is still really good.

Same here. I run either 20 x 3 with a character, or 21 x 3. Works very well. Nothing against white lions, they are great too, but 28-29 STR 5 attacks is nothing to sneeze at. Sure they need survival support, but lots of things do, and very little in our army has the same sheer amount of attack output saturation as SM's.

-- Haight

I agree here. I actually even think that a bigger Horde can work as the true "core" of the army in a bigger list. With the new Loremaster who can go into the unit as an extra character to both fight and augment/hex as needed and a Lore of Life caster nearby to get their toughness up, a large unit of Swordmasters almost cannot be killed. They got cheaper too...

If you're content to Castle a little bit, and run some Eagle Claws and archers, you can whittle away approaching enemies and then let the Swordmasters send them on their way. Meanwhile, with the new units, you've got the possibility of Phoenix(es) flying around in the backfield along with a Dragon and/or flying chariots. So, different from normal Castle-ing such as seen with Dwarfs (another army I play).

 UltraTacSgt wrote:

What does everyone think of Swordmasters as they exist in the new army book?

Nothing at all has changed. 5-10 as flankers as you say.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

The problem with that is you are panic testing after 2 losses

Quite so, but everything has a problem. That's not meant to sound condescending or trivial. A bunch of Repeater Crossbows could even wipe out the whole unit but that goes both ways. 5 Swordmasters do not look very menacing, so it is entirely possible they will be overlooked in favour of more pressing targets, or they could draw fire for the bigger units. Very flexible.

 Orlanth wrote:

They might panic test from casualties as they are T3 flank hitters, but will be in range of general and BSB (or you have bigger problems). However they are very likely to win combat as they are five flanking models doing extra damage to back up a high elf melee block. If they don't then again you have bigger problems.

Please help a non-native speaker: "You have bigger problems", is that shorthand for "I'm going to casually brush your argument aside"?

Points denial, against high elves, really? So you split up to play the manoeuver game - cant catch me....

*I* don't need to catch *you* to conserve my points. Au contraire, *you* need to kill those 80 Skellies to get them.

You can be brought to combat then tag teamed to death.

That's entirely possible, and that's that.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

They might panic test from casualties as they are T3 flank hitters, but will be in range of general and BSB (or you have bigger problems). However they are very likely to win combat as they are five flanking models doing extra damage to back up a high elf melee block. If they don't then again you have bigger problems.

Please help a non-native speaker: "You have bigger problems", is that shorthand for "I'm going to casually brush your argument aside"?

Mike : I think he was just saying that if you are in a fight where a large melee block along with a flanking squad of Swordmasters cannot do enough damage to win the combat then you are have problems that go deeper than deciding whether or not to use Swordmasters; like the enemy unit is just way better than your melee block+SM's, or you got really unlucky somehow (maybe magic screwed you), or your units have been whittled down by ranged fire.

On the topic of this thread though, I have included Swordmasters in some form in every game I have played so far. This has been 8-10 games ranging from 600pts to 1000pts (I am new to WHFB so the points are low), and I have faced varying lists of Lizardmen, Beastmen, Empire, and Dwarves. I have gotten good use out of 5 man MSU units cruising around with bigger blocks as combat support or to use as a speed bump in a pinch when an enemy is threatening to flank. I've also been pretty pleased with a bigger unit of 8-10 with varying command elements as a more stand alone combat unit.

The two biggest strengths I've experienced are the high weapon skill, and the sheer weight of higher strength attacks. The WS having them hit on 3's and cause most enemies to hit on 4's or worse is pretty handy, and putting out a ton of strength 5 or better attacks before 90% of opponents means that they almost always give a good hit before they take one in return. Also the smaller unit frontage has let a small unit of SM's hold up a much bigger unit of enemies and allow my army to get into better positions.

I still really want to try out Phoenix Guard and White Lions some day. But as of now I will never hesitate to give Swordmasters a slot in my army.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

They might panic test from casualties as they are T3 flank hitters, but will be in range of general and BSB (or you have bigger problems). However they are very likely to win combat as they are five flanking models doing extra damage to back up a high elf melee block. If they don't then again you have bigger problems.

Please help a non-native speaker: "You have bigger problems", is that shorthand for "I'm going to casually brush your argument aside"?

Actually it means I think through my responces. You tried the casual brush off by saying that MSU will be dealt with by panic tests. This ignores the flat fact that those panic tests ouight to be made on a Ld9 if not 8, and preferably with a reroll from the BSB. You will find that the vast majority of ther time those tests will be passed so panic tersts from casualties to small units are not a problem to be glibly added as a catch all as to why MSU doesnt work, at least for High Elves.
The 'bigger problems' refers to the possibility that you might not have the general, or at least the BSB in range. This is more worrying, if the MSU flank attacker is unsupported by army command perhaps the main unit is also. I did not think it needed to be stated that this of course will be a problem for anyone.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Points denial, against high elves, really? So you split up to play the manoeuver game - cant catch me....

*I* don't need to catch *you* to conserve my points. Au contraire, *you* need to kill those 80 Skellies to get them.

There will be other things to take down as well as the 80 skellies. High Elves can deal with Vampires quite well in my opinion, and they are normally worth a fair few victory points. Even so those skellies can fall. Fiery Convocation will do that, as can a flank attack of swordmasters alongside a frontal unit attack and the crumble associated with the large amount of damage they splash out.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

You can be brought to combat then tag teamed to death.

That's entirely possible, and that's that.

As mobility is an elven strength this is something to be looked at seriously if the advantages of the elven armies is to be brought to bear the indirect benefits like mobility must be applied. In other words: you paid for your speed, use it.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 UltraTacSgt wrote:
I have 20 of them from IoB sets and I'd like to think they are still a useful unit. I'm thinking 10 w/ musician to march alongside my spear blocks and flank whatever my spears run into.

So....

What does everyone think of Swordmasters as they exist in the new army book?

How would you now compare them to White Lions? (Not Phoenix Guard, they are too different for a real comparison)

How would you run them in an army now? In games less than 1000pts or games over 1000pts?

Take 20, add character, go 7 wide.
28 attacks at WS6 and S5. Plus the Character.
All good.

-Matt

This.

Despite being initially worried, thus far in several games the lack of re-rolls hasn't been a major issue. They are still peforming beautifully for me.

-- Haight

 Orlanth wrote:

Actually it means I think through my responces. You tried the casual brush off by saying that MSU will be dealt with by panic tests.

I regret to say that all your careful pondering was for nought, as at the end of this probably arduous and time-consuming thought process you manage to quote the wrong person. I never said anything like that.

This ignores the flat fact that those panic tests ouight to be made on a Ld9 if not 8, and preferably with a reroll from the BSB

As I said, that's quite possible, as is the opposite. What "ought" to happen is usually limited by the dice and your opponent, so let's not make some perfect conditions the basis for our arguments.

You will find that the vast majority of ther time those tests will be passed so panic tersts from casualties to small units are not a problem to be glibly added as a catch all as to why MSU doesnt work, at least for High Elves.

It is perfectly reasonable to point out that small(er) units are more vulnerable to panic tests because it is objectively easier to cause such tests.

Your assumption that the vast majority will be passed might be true in some ivory tower but it assumes everyone who ever takes a test is always within 12". That however implies a density and concentration of force that makes a mockery of MSU. If you're unable to leave that bubble, you will have some trouble to get into a flank.

 Orlanth wrote:

There will be other things to take down as well as the 80 skellies. High Elves can deal with Vampires quite well in my opinion, and they are normally worth a fair few victory points. Even so those skellies can fall. Fiery Convocation will do that, as can a flank attack of swordmasters alongside a frontal unit attack and the crumble associated with the large amount of damage they splash out.

Insubstantial. Point denial is not an MSU aspect, and hordes that wish to deny points do not need to catch any Elves. Convocation also has little to do with MSU or not.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Actually it means I think through my responces. You tried the casual brush off by saying that MSU will be dealt with by panic tests.

I regret to say that all your careful pondering was for nought, as at the end of this probably arduous and time-consuming thought process you manage to quote the wrong person. I never said anything like that.

I replied to this:

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

Please help a non-native speaker: "You have bigger problems", is that shorthand for "I'm going to casually brush your argument aside"?

You claiming this wasnt you?

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

This ignores the flat fact that those panic tests ouight to be made on a Ld9 if not 8, and preferably with a reroll from the BSB

As I said, that's quite possible, as is the opposite. What "ought" to happen is usually limited by the dice and your opponent, so let's not make some perfect conditions the basis for our arguments.

What ought to happen with regards to being in range of your own general and BSB (the point being made) is something you should be able to count on in standard play it isnt.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

It is perfectly reasonable to point out that small(er) units are more vulnerable to panic tests because it is objectively easier to cause such tests.

Which due to the positioning will very likely be rerolling on good leadership, I will take those odds.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

Your assumption that the vast majority will be passed might be true in some ivory tower but it assumes everyone who ever takes a test is always within 12". That however implies a density and concentration of force that makes a mockery of MSU. If you're unable to leave that bubble, you will have some trouble to get into a flank.

Actually those small high elf units will be close to the core, this is what High Elves use the small units for.
The only exception is a cavalry list which works by sending out Reavers everywhere, not Swordmasters though so its outside the scope of this discussion.
MSU cavalry has its own strategies.
Yes the small packets of Swordmasters ought to be able to stay in the bubble and provide close support to the infantry blocks, because its what they are there to do.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

There will be other things to take down as well as the 80 skellies. High Elves can deal with Vampires quite well in my opinion, and they are normally worth a fair few victory points. Even so those skellies can fall. Fiery Convocation will do that, as can a flank attack of swordmasters alongside a frontal unit attack and the crumble associated with the large amount of damage they splash out.

Insubstantial. Point denial is not an MSU aspect, and hordes that wish to deny points do not need to catch any Elves. Convocation also has little to do with MSU or not.

Get it into your head: THIS ISNT OLD SCHOOL MSU with all units being MSU. It's block units with MSU flanking elements, big difference. The Swordmasters are the MSU element the other infantry are not.
And for the record Fiery Convocation does count as it provides the bulk damage based on unit size the one thing MSU cant easily handle. In other words the bigger blocks that shrug off casualties caused by Swordmasters are more vulnerable to spells that dmage every model in the unit. There is synergy here.