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2006/03/25 16:18:42
Subject: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Nasty Nob
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Does the familiar war gear item make a librarian a unit?
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A man's character is his fate.
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2006/03/25 16:22:54
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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He's a unit even without a familiar.
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2006/03/26 00:59:11
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ahoj! Yes, they become a unit which can be fired at. But the Librarian can still join other units, per analogy to other followers.
Borys
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2006/03/28 21:30:16
Subject: RE:Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Navigator
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The librarian remains an independent character when he is given any other piece of wargear, so it would follow that the familiar acts not like a retinue but an item to be carried. In addition to the initiative bonus it grants, this piece of wargear also acts like an inseparable model that is bound to the character but is too insignificant to be considered retinue. This differs from the inquistorial familiar rules for no particularly good reason.
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2006/03/28 23:10:39
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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The answer is: There is no answer.
Much of what base_10 posted is not backed up by any rules.
What we do know:
The familiar is a creature (because it has a creature statline), and creatures are non-vehicle models. All models in the game must form a unit, otherwise there are no rules to guide them (all the rules are unit based for movement, shooting, etc).
So either the familiar forms a unit with the Librarian and follows all the rules as such, or the Familiar cannot move or fight in close combat, as it is a model that isn't part of a unit.
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2006/03/29 01:56:24
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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So its finally up to the player which route they want to chose? Either model the familiar onto the Librarians base and just use the initiative bonus, or model the familiar with a base and call both a unit that can be target normally...
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2006/03/29 01:57:44
Subject: RE:Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The rules don't support modelling him on the librarian's base.
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"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto. |
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2006/03/29 02:10:51
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I dont know. Hes wargear after all, so modeling him onto the unit that is equiped with him, seems to be not too far fetched. One could argue that the WYSIWIG rules tell you to do it.
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2006/03/29 03:40:50
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Master of the Hunt
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Yak is right that there is no definitive answer. However, I do believe that there exists a precedent that the familiar does not form a unit with the Librarian. A similar item would be Chaos Hounds in C: CSM. When purchased, the codex explicitly states that they form a unit with the character. Since this wording existed before the release of C: SM, I believe that GW would have included the same wording if they had wanted familiars to function in the same manner. Of course, this is dependent on the assumption that GW knows what it is doing...
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"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion." |
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2006/03/29 05:33:06
Subject: RE:Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It's a logical falacy to argue that an unretated rule has the "proper" form, and since this does not, it must mean something different than what it says.
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"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto. |
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2006/03/29 09:55:53
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Nasty Nob
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I will take it then the the familiar, as wargear, forms a unit with the Libbie and allows said unit to be targeted outside of the normal independent character rules.
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A man's character is his fate.
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2006/03/29 19:20:55
Subject: RE:Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Navigator
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There are some serious consequences for considering the familar as a separate model and the librarian and the familar as a unit.
The movement of a familiar is unclear, so if we assume it moves as infantry, then the librarian would be unable to purchase a jump pack or bike as the unit would have different movement speeds. But this is based on the familar being a separate and distinct model with all its own characteristics. Granted it does have a statline.
I assert that the SM familiar is prima facia based on the Daemonhunter and Witchhunter familars which also gives a +1 initiative bonus, has the same stat line, and counts as being armed with a close combat weapon. However, they are not the same, as the differences are striking. The Inquistorial familiars are considered a retinue and "They form a single unit and obey all normal unit coherency rules." Where as the SM familiars "do not take up any space in a transport vehicle..." and since they are listed in the wargear section it says that "All weapons and wargear must be represented on the model."
This leads to the second part of my argument. In the wargear section of the SM codex it states "These rules tend to be more detailed than those included in the [WH40K] rulebook, and they supercede them if they are different." This definitely a case where these rules are different from the rulebook.
Thus the SM codex definitely supports the idea that familiars should be represented on the model. But it implies that since this model does not occupy any space outside the librarian, it is to be considered a removable extension of the librarian whether or not there is precedent in the rulebook for this case.
Hope this is better worded and backed up than my last statement Yakface.
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2006/03/29 22:37:44
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club
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I'd agree with that interpretation, although the codex description isn't clear enough to support anything 100%.
The only problem with your interpretation would be that the familiar would not be able to attack in close combat (because only models can fight in close combat) as the familiar rules seem to indicate it should. In fact, the whole point of including characteristics are pointless because if the familiar is not a model then it never uses them.
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2006/03/30 09:51:45
Subject: RE:Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Central MO
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it sounds to me that the familiar acts in the same way as a symbiote ripper on a monsterous creature in that it would attack along with the librarian but had no wounds of its own, if the librarian goes it goes. its similar to the additional powerfist attacks a techmarine has for having a servo harness, a libbie with a familiar gets an additional familiar attack (though a poor one). and since it is listed in the wargear section and not in the command squad entry, and it doesnt take any space in a transport i would have to say that allthough gw doesnt come out and say it all signs point to a librian with a familiar as still an independent character. though just to avoid arguements with my opponents i would just not take a familiar unless i had a command squad attached allready, I 5 vs I 6 is not that big a deal when your still only S 4, and to get the furious charge you have to have a command squad anyway.
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Lifetime Record of Awesomeness
1000000W/ 0L/ 1D (against myself)
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2006/03/30 11:50:01
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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The big problem with that line of thinking is that it has a statline. Since it has a statline, it would normally be represented by a model on its own base. The other codices which have similar follower/wargear upgrade options (Chaos and Daemonhunters) actually have rules telling you how to use them. The SM codex, alas, does not.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
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2006/03/30 11:53:11
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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Been Around the Block
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A Librarian with a model that joins it forms a unit right? A Librarian with a familiar is still allowed to join with another unit right? Doesn't this just make it a unit with a special rule or am I simplifying it too much?
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2006/03/30 11:59:45
Subject: RE: Librarian + Familiar = unit?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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We don't know how fast it moves.
We don't know whether it revokes his IC status.
An Independent Character IS a unit, albeit a unit of one model with special rules, which confuses some people who try to use the terms "IC" and "unit" as if they were mutually exclusive.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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