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 Billagio wrote:
I see. My main problem is getting the charge. Since theyre in a rhino theyre a good deal more mobile than footfslogging boyz, but I do agree that they'll do some good damage in return if given the chance.

Well you have 55 boyz for price of berserkers. Have screen of about 10 orks and 10 grots ahead of your mainline. Unless he has enough shooting to clear up front line he won't really be charging your main line so you get to counter charge first.

Issue you hit easily with orks yourself so nice to use it yourself. Without shooting hard to reach good targets at first charge so you need to eat up their counter charge often enough. Which is why 2 wave assault is handy if you have boyz to do it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Been starting to think I should start be in habit of taking 10 sized squads of boyz. They seem surprisingly flexible. With mob up I can merge them with bigger squads if need be(giving 2 nobz to the squad as well). And since it's just 60 pts(plus maybe special weapon to nob) they are cheap so can be used as chaff/screen/DS blockers. While grots can do that part for cheaper they can't be mobbed up if needed.

Last game I could use 2 to shut down my backfield of deep strikes(apart from timing caused measurement error) which allowed me to push forward with whole main army without worrying about leaving objective vulnerable to mass deep strike(well except for the tiny hole for that one squad but at least assault marines couldn't join and if I had had more time that hole wouldn't have been there either).

Against infiltrators etc they can be used to create front line. And here they shine over grots. With grots if I need to charge through it can create bit of a roadblock as the grots don't run fastly out of combat. ALSO due to grots being first ork boyz are further away from enemy than I would without screen. With boyz screen I can instead mob up and charge away with full blop if situation presents!

Bit more expensive chaff than grots but extra utility. No need to go overboard though as you can mob up only 1 per turn so 3 is max I think is useful along with some grot units.

Oh and with these its easier to take battallions which pays up those mob up CP's with interest. Doubly useful come codex with cool strategems.

Am I missing something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay FAQ pretty much killed kommandos as main assault units. With T3 for reliable charge that's way too late. However since due to calculation error with models(I thought I was 1 short for the 7 mobs of orks I thought I had. Still need more when the codex hits so I can bring battallion of any of the 4 clans I have) I ended up buying box of 4 orks.

Now was planning just saving those for when the inevitable new units(I currently have 3 goffs, 2 dethskulls, 1 evil sunz and 1 bad moon so next probably is evil sunz or bad moons. Prolly evil sunz due to choppa&slugga. Bad moons I make more of shooty variety) but then thought with nob(I have plenty of those) that could be made into small kommando squad though would need flamer bits. Or use 2 of my 15 burnas as kommando base...

Anyway idea was 5 kommandos with 2 burnas and includes either naked nob or nob with big choppa. Obviously not huge threat but cheap at 52 pts with big choppa. I thought these could be turn 2 or maybe even turn 3 objective grabbers for cheap.

Any use for such a unit? I'm worried for backfield objectives grots does same job better and forward...well I'm aiming there with my army so if things go as planned opponent shouldn't be rushing forward with army so not sure can they get to objectives with that 9" limit...

At least would be nice conversion project...

Kommandos. I don't know right now. I see it a little different. If I am planning to assault with them I am bringing 10 and 15, mob up and charge. I have to create a spot for them on turn one.
As Objective grabbers 5 is more flexable, for where you can set them up. Again, you'll want to blow open a hole open to help them set up and not have a lot to deal with. It really depends on what the other army is and how they are playing. If they are mindful of sneaky units you might have it's going to be an issue you need to find a way to solve. We don't have, seems to me, very strong/hard hitting indirect fire with good range available regularly out side of the suppa lobba. (ifr)
If your army can put on pressure to draw enemy units away from where you want your Kommandos to be do that as well.
I just played a Kommando list a few months ago at a local Tournament and it was ok, I put over 100+ models in my enemies face turn one with Kommandso, deff Koptas and 40 boys mobed up and jumped. but it only worked in 2 games and only did well in one game. Enemy models matter..
And so do dice.
I keep finding a more rounded army does better more of the time than pushing an list leaning toward an extreme.

 warhead01 wrote:
Kommandos. I don't know right now. I see it a little different. If I am planning to assault with them I am bringing 10 and 15, mob up and charge. I have to create a spot for them on turn one.

Problem is now that if you plan to assault you need to plan for Turn 3 assault. Before it was turn 2. Turn 3 is already pretty damn late on 8th ed.

These would not be used as assault elements. That's for my boyz and stormboyz who can get it on turn 2. These would be objective grabbing and maybe some harashment to try to chase down small soft targets(IG heavy weapons being prime target) or at least force opponent to dedicate some stuff to ensure I can't do that.

I just played a Kommando list a few months ago at a local Tournament and it was ok, I put over 100+ models in my enemies face turn one with Kommandso, deff Koptas and 40 boys mobed up and jumped. but it only worked in 2 games and only did well in one game. Enemy models matter..
And so do dice.
I keep finding a more rounded army does better more of the time than pushing an list leaning toward an extreme.

But that was when they could come turn 1...Now they come on turn 2 and you can't really rely on them charging right away so you are looking at turn 3 assault but then you could have saved points(they cost 9 vs 6) and get +1A(which btw I realized I have forgotten so far...) at least sometimes.

Dunno. For me before they seemed to have role as being 50% more expensive and less effective chargers but possibly at turn 1, maybe turn 2. Now they are coming reliably when foot boyz would be charging anyway so why pay points for something you aren't really using?

Also btw 15 is harder to fit than 5 so would be easier for chaff to block away completely.

tneva82 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
Kommandos. I don't know right now. I see it a little different. If I am planning to assault with them I am bringing 10 and 15, mob up and charge. I have to create a spot for them on turn one.

Problem is now that if you plan to assault you need to plan for Turn 3 assault. Before it was turn 2. Turn 3 is already pretty damn late on 8th ed.

These would not be used as assault elements. That's for my boyz and stormboyz who can get it on turn 2. These would be objective grabbing and maybe some harashment to try to chase down small soft targets(IG heavy weapons being prime target) or at least force opponent to dedicate some stuff to ensure I can't do that.

I just played a Kommando list a few months ago at a local Tournament and it was ok, I put over 100+ models in my enemies face turn one with Kommandso, deff Koptas and 40 boys mobed up and jumped. but it only worked in 2 games and only did well in one game. Enemy models matter..
And so do dice.
I keep finding a more rounded army does better more of the time than pushing an list leaning toward an extreme.

But that was when they could come turn 1...Now they come on turn 2 and you can't really rely on them charging right away so you are looking at turn 3 assault but then you could have saved points(they cost 9 vs 6) and get +1A(which btw I realized I have forgotten so far...) at least sometimes.

Dunno. For me before they seemed to have role as being 50% more expensive and less effective chargers but possibly at turn 1, maybe turn 2. Now they are coming reliably when foot boyz would be charging anyway so why pay points for something you aren't really using?

Also btw 15 is harder to fit than 5 so would be easier for chaff to block away completely.

Again, it does depend on the other player and their army. Turn 1 assaults are easily done if they are rolling towards your army. This happened in my last few games. SoB's in transports pre turn 1 movies right towards me. Thing is you need a bit of a plan for your units before you play anyway. It just needs to be fluid.
Maybe right now small Kommando units are going to be better. You've got 3 turns to pop them out and do something with them.

If you can pull off a turn 3 charge from the rear of the enemies lines that at least sets you up for some kinda scoring situations later in the game, so that might be worth figuring out.
I know what you are saying bout the model count, 15 over 5. I was putting that into mind, which was why I was saying we'll need to blow open a whole or draw the enemy away from where we want the table space.
(So study up on your Jedi mind tricks and what have you. )

The only reason I played so many Kommandos in that tournament was to speed up my game and have a large model count army. This was right after all of that internet crying about slow play.
Over all it wasn't overly entertaining and I only won my third game for ...reasons lol.
But yes, I was all about a first turn charge with almost all of my models. MY usual Scrumgrod has now change his army yet again to include more flamer type weapons, more and more autto hit weapons and more tanks...joy of joys. something about 6 or 8 hell hounds. (Or something like that.)

tneva82 wrote:


Been starting to think I should start be in habit of taking 10 sized squads of boyz. They seem surprisingly flexible. With mob up I can merge them with bigger squads if need be(giving 2 nobz to the squad as well). And since it's just 60 pts(plus maybe special weapon to nob) they are cheap so can be used as chaff/screen/DS blockers. While grots can do that part for cheaper they can't be mobbed up if needed.

At least would be nice conversion project...

I do this already actually and it works out pretty well. I have a unit of 30 shoota boys and a unit of 10 shoota boys deployed mext to each other, mob them up amd jump them on turn one. I have my "Reserve boys" as 2 units of 10 slugga boys in a battlewagon. So if the now 40 boy shoota squad needs some help or boost in numbers to stay viable I can add in 10 fresh bodies to keep the green tide rolling for two turns. I mixed the boy type because if it looks like theyre going to be in for a long fight after I merge slugga boys into their, I kill off shoota boys for the extra attacks, but if I just needed a little boost to overcome whatever theyre locked in with, I kill of sluggas to be better at shooting.
This also works well if the shoota boys are dping okay and there's a threat right in front of the battlewagon. In this case I jist mob up the two squads from the wagon, suck up the overwatch with the wagon itself, then charge the threat with a squad of 20 boys with green tide. Its very flexible, and has given my competitive Death guard friend a run for his money
Every time I use it.

 warhead01 wrote:

Again, it does depend on the other player and their army. Turn 1 assaults are easily done if they are rolling towards your army. This happened in my last few games. SoB's in transports pre turn 1 movies right towards me. Thing is you need a bit of a plan for your units before you play anyway. It just needs to be fluid.
Maybe right now small Kommando units are going to be better. You've got 3 turns to pop them out and do something with them.

If you can pull off a turn 3 charge from the rear of the enemies lines that at least sets you up for some kinda scoring situations later in the game, so that might be worth figuring out.
I know what you are saying bout the model count, 15 over 5. I was putting that into mind, which was why I was saying we'll need to blow open a whole or draw the enemy away from where we want the table space.
(So study up on your Jedi mind tricks and what have you. )

The only reason I played so many Kommandos in that tournament was to speed up my game and have a large model count army. This was right after all of that internet crying about slow play.
Over all it wasn't overly entertaining and I only won my third game for ...reasons lol.
But yes, I was all about a first turn charge with almost all of my models. MY usual Scrumgrod has now change his army yet again to include more flamer type weapons, more and more autto hit weapons and more tanks...joy of joys. something about 6 or 8 hell hounds. (Or something like that.)

Enemy moving forward has zero effect on kommandos as you still need that 9" to charge. In fact if opponent comes forward that helps boyz(and hurts kommando) as they might not need 9 to charge

tneva82 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

Again, it does depend on the other player and their army. Turn 1 assaults are easily done if they are rolling towards your army. This happened in my last few games. SoB's in transports pre turn 1 movies right towards me. Thing is you need a bit of a plan for your units before you play anyway. It just needs to be fluid.
Maybe right now small Kommando units are going to be better. You've got 3 turns to pop them out and do something with them.

If you can pull off a turn 3 charge from the rear of the enemies lines that at least sets you up for some kinda scoring situations later in the game, so that might be worth figuring out.
I know what you are saying bout the model count, 15 over 5. I was putting that into mind, which was why I was saying we'll need to blow open a whole or draw the enemy away from where we want the table space.
(So study up on your Jedi mind tricks and what have you. )

The only reason I played so many Kommandos in that tournament was to speed up my game and have a large model count army. This was right after all of that internet crying about slow play.
Over all it wasn't overly entertaining and I only won my third game for ...reasons lol.
But yes, I was all about a first turn charge with almost all of my models. MY usual Scrumgrod has now change his army yet again to include more flamer type weapons, more and more autto hit weapons and more tanks...joy of joys. something about 6 or 8 hell hounds. (Or something like that.)

Enemy moving forward has zero effect on kommandos as you still need that 9" to charge. In fact if opponent comes forward that helps boyz(and hurts kommando) as they might not need 9 to charge

Yes for Kommandos, but not for the rest of your army which you might be interested in using to help you get the most use from your kommandos.
They will still need that 9" charge. Ok, so what. My only issue is being screened so strongly that I can't set my unit up on the table.
I have ha my Kommandos pushed back in games where other foot units were bothered. It is what it is.
Not that it's overly important, In that last tournament I mentioned, my last game I made I failed only 1 of 6 charges from 9" away. So it doesn't matter really it just comes back to how are your dice treating you that day.
The game before I kept failing charges so it's what ever. Again, had my list been more rounded I wouldn't have had to do or die where those charges came in. Which was what I didn't like about that list it was all or nothing on turn one. Not a whole lot of fun really.
However, the more I think about it the more I agree turn 3 is where you will be the most successful in charging with Kommandos, provided they come on the table the turn before.
I think we're right back to using them to take objectives in small 5 strong Mobs. If your scoring points for objectives on your turn then could be better than a charge anyway.
We still have to look at what we need to do to win the missions.
Really wish I had seen something clever to do with kommandos but I'm out of good ideas I think.

 warhead01 wrote:

Yes for Kommandos, but not for the rest of your army which you might be interested in using to help you get the most use from your kommandos.

Yes but thing is you are paying for that infiltrate ability but if enemy comes ahead your kommandos can easily have HARDER time than boyz to charge. Before FAQ they could compensate that by coming way ahead on turn 1. Turn 2 coming and boyz are pretty much same. Before you could have good initial threat with kommandos and stormboyz with da jumped squad with 2nd wave of regular boyz. Multiple threats. Now kommandos don\t really add much threat and are just very expensive guys. Basically you pay 3 pts and lose the +1A for extra blip of cover save...

Can't see how kommandos could be worth it as assault unit anymore. Boyz are simply faster now for that for cheaper price and more punch. So that leads me to think cheap small harashment/objective grabber squads are way to go if kommandos have any role.

They will still need that 9" charge. Ok, so what. My only issue is being screened so strongly that I can't set my unit up on the table.

Issue is kommandos have now harder time charging than boyz often enough...

I have ha my Kommandos pushed back in games where other foot units were bothered. It is what it is.
Not that it's overly important, In that last tournament I mentioned, my last game I made I failed only 1 of 6 charges from 9" away. So it doesn't matter really it just comes back to how are your dice treating you that day.

Can't build army planning on luck.

And hey now rule check. Da Jump+advance. If squad(or part of squad in case of mob up strategem) has advanced can unit charge after da jumping or should I keep not advancing if I plan to da jump?


Anyway had rather fun game today. Might have been most fun 8th ed game I have had so far. 1500 pts vs blood angels as it turned out(had no idea whom I'll be facing). 1500 pts and the fact we could start earlier AND I had no train to catch meant that with 1500 pts armies we might actually finish up in time! Yey! Still I had softened up my army a bit to include something other than boyz...So I had warboss with 6+++ and relic big choppa, big mek w/KFF, da jump and warpath weirdboys, 30 boyz w/big choppa nob, 21 boyz w/klaw, 10 boyz with klaw, 10 grots, 25 stormboyz w/klaw, 2 KMK, dreadnought w/4 klaws and gorkanaut. 9 command points.

He had not quite nastiest BA smashcaptain but still no overwatch wings, 3++ and thunderhammer that was death company. Also lib in terminator armour and jump pack chaplain. 3 or 4 scout squads, primaris basic marines, death company dread, normal dread, 10 death company. 13 CP's.! Overall was most worried obviously about death company and characters.

For scenario open war gave us deployments by depth with 24" betwene armies, king slayer so power level kills except if you kill warlord double it. And night fight so 12" LOS for shooting and spells from T1...Okay so we aren't shooting all that much! I won 1st turn which was nice enough.

Turn 1 I rushed forward with everything and mobbed up 10 orks to 21(which was all with h2h weapons. The big squad had some shootas and also crucially big choppa). Psychic I Da Jumped now merged squad behind his death company. Surprise! Shooting was laughable. Maybe killed scout or two with dethskulls(the originally biggest squad). On assault phase I rolled double 4. Don't recall did I use CP reroll or ork reroll. If not I should have used CP reroll as it's better(made finally calculation to see when it's better to use CP to reroll lower dice. If your highest dice was 3 use ork reroll, otherwise use CP if you don't think you need it elsewhere. With 4 as highest it's only few % difference). Either way I got beautifull 10 and 31 boyz including 2 power klaw nobs charged into death company. Lucky 1 on morale ensured 3 survived. Second charge(dethskulls to some scouts) failed even with reroll.

His turn and all 3 characters deep striked into his deployment zone to help out with the angry swarm of goffs. Blood angels elsewhere retreated in terror from swarm of orks(or performed tactical repositioning depending on PV ). Death company retreated leaving my poor orks under shooting hell which saw nearly 20 die. Smashcaptain charged in with 3d6" needing CP reroll to make it and killed few more. I used strategem to prevent them autodying.

Turn 2. Stormboyz still too far to reach anything so I swarmed forward and dethskulls charged some scouts killing 4. Weirdboy Da Jumped warlord toward stormboyz as somehow I thought side with most of blood angels was safer...Okay still plenty of guys there but really? Why da jump there...Goffs took another go at smashcaptain giving 1 wound by regular guy that he opted not to reroll. I needed to not roll 6 to lose all my orks there which I did. However captain disengaged and he blew them away. Dethskulls also took beating by primaris marines and bolter scout squad shooting and charging but in the end I would finish up those leaving orks alive.

Now here I...basically lost my mind. I forgot exactly what kingslayer objective did. Somehow I thought I HAD to kill warlord. I forgot entirely it only double casualties which means that if one side kills warlord pretty sure to kill but if neither kills it's not automatic draw. But I thought I HAD to kill to win and never one to settle for draw and with warlord being that jump pack fast mover that top of ruin my dreadnought and gorkanaut can't do anything to...I made suicide attack with stormboyz. Made worse by not getting that much stuff on battlements so odds of killing it was slim. Still leaving string of stormboyz to cast warpath(I can't get all into combat anyway so didn't even lose guys from attack) and ensured I didn't suffer casualties by advance and charge(at least some use for warboss...). I charged into 3 squads of scouts and warlord and...Well one scout squad lost 3 guys. One faced 4 stormboyz attacks and didn't lose any member. And warlord just shrugged it off and started smashing orks fast.

Sooooo...My plan failed pretty utterly. Now I figured I was at best drawing.

Later half my gorkanaut ran over his dreadnought though got dented badly in the process(intercept). KMK's finally got into range with moving(lol) and light coming up so fired some pot shots at scouts. On his turn 3 his warlord used strategem to deep strike near my warlord(yikes!) and finished stormboyz. Smashcaptain charged into my warboss and I thought best I could hope is for KMK's to avenge warboss. However somehow he managed to miss and fail to wound enough that I "only" suffered 6 wounds from thunderhammer! And tenacious survivor kept him alive! Wow! I thought KMK's might get shot to kill him keeping warboss alive but before that warboss struct. 4 attacks, 4 hits. Relic choppa and...2 6's! 5 mortal wounds! His 5+++ with 1's alive kept him alive. But 2 wounds regularly and he failed one 3++! Still with one wound...Except then I remembered the wound he had suffered with goffs and with his comments "oh right" he died! Ork warboss vs nasty death company captain in fair ork vs man and ork won! Yey! Serious luck there but hey sometimes dice are with you

Anyway this put victory at my grasp. However I'm expert at grasping defeat from jaws of victory and sure enough on my turn 5 I had death company dreadnought on sight with deff dread so CHAAAAAAAARGE! Gorkanaut finished off death company with shooting. So then the assault phase. Librarian with force axe heroic intervened and here...I totally, completely, TOTALLY INSANEOUSLY lost my mind to greed and went for stupid 4 attacks to dreadnought, 2 attacks to librarian split thinking I might kill 'em both. Well unsurprisingly both survived(librarian unscathed) and death company dreadnought ripped deff dread apart. This gave consolidiation ranges easily so his dreadnought went and smashed my poor gorkanaut(19PL) and librarian smited my warboss(bleargh), charged and killed weirdboy and chaplain charged and killed big mek...

Ah well. In the end he got like 69 power levels killed, I got like 42 or so(these before doubling). I only got basically death company, dread and warlord as big kills with plenty small squads hurt but not finished. I lost warlord, medium+small squad of boyz, stormboyz, dreadnought and gorkanaut which hurt a lot.

So basically I screwed up with stormboyz(shouldn't have charged them alone there) and totally lost my mind with the dreadnought. Without that consolidiate he would have struggled to get into angle where warboss was closest target or get even all that close. And dreadnought would have died giving me PL's, him not deff dread PL's and gorkanaut would have survived...All in all even if he got warlord it would still have been some 26PL+whatever that death company dreadnought is worth swing and he would have struggled to kill another character along with warboss and def not all three so at least some 4-5 PL saved there as well so easy win for me even if he kills my warboss...Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Can one even advance after jumping?

Advance is rolled and moved at movement phase so pre jumping. Benefit for advance thus would be small and mainly backup in case da jump fails. Just checking won'' get denied charge stupidly in future

I'm going to say that I'm going to defer to the basic rules prohibiting charges after advances.

Yeah that was my first thought but then i remembered wasn't there something about spell effects going away with da jump etc so no warpath followed by da jump(would have been handy) and if true maybe wording matters here too. Haven't found that either yet though

Edit found it. Q would be is that persistent effect but then again it is for strategems so warpath plus da jump would be legal...that's big

jump is in psychic phase, after the movement phase, so obviously no advancing after jumping...and jumping does count as having moved, for the purposes of firing heavy weapons, etc...but it doesn't say it counts as advancing or anything like that, so you can still charge after jumping just fine

*edit*...ohh...we're talking about advancing before jumping?...actually, yeah, I'm not sure if you would be allowed to charge after jumping then or not...hmm...

If you advanced in the movement phase and then cast da jump on that unit, you would not be able to declare a charge because you still advanced in the movement phase. This can be negated by the waagh rule from the warboss.

I play with three Dakka Jets and I found that they’re a great way to delete Berserkers. If they’re footslogging, each Dakka Jet will kill three Berserkers per turn. If they’re in a Rhino, my KMKs ( I’ve four in total) usually blows that up then Dakka Jet takes care of the contents. Also, Stormboyz will ensure you get the first charge against Beserkers as they’re so fast.

Something just occurred to me. Since the Warboss now confers Waaagh to Biker units, you could now move, advance, shoot and charge with Nob Bikers in the same turn.

And since you can do all three, it seems like Kombi Skorchas could be a thing.

Now all of a sudden that's a shoota + a TL Dakka gun on 6's plus a skorcha autohitting per model. Then you can assault.

I think this appeals to me. I know it's expensive as hell, but that is high speed (14" + D6" + 2D6" assault + 1" reach) and combines serious shooting with substantial assault. I want to do this... primarily because it's way more exciting than anything else I can think of.

 TedNugent wrote:
Something just occurred to me. Since the Warboss now confers Waaagh to Biker units, you could now move, advance, shoot and charge with Nob Bikers in the same turn.

And since you can do all three, it seems like Kombi Skorchas could be a thing.

Now all of a sudden that's a shoota + a TL Dakka gun on 6's plus a skorcha autohitting per model. Then you can assault.

I think this appeals to me. I know it's expensive as hell, but that is high speed (14" + D6" + 2D6" assault + 1" reach) and combines serious shooting with substantial assault. I want to do this... primarily because it's way more exciting than anything else I can think of.

That is 25 inches on average. So with reroll charges you should get there often enough. The only problem is that those Nob Bikerz, even without upgrades are WAY too expensive. And realistically you don't want to upgrade shooting. 42pts for a bare bones Nob Biker isn't incredible. And 3 wounds on a T5 4+ save model isn't exactly hard to kill. If anything this would bring back MSU bikes....except we have the Rule of 3 now....

 TedNugent wrote:
Something just occurred to me. Since the Warboss now confers Waaagh to Biker units, you could now move, advance, shoot and charge with Nob Bikers in the same turn.

And since you can do all three, it seems like Kombi Skorchas could be a thing.

Now all of a sudden that's a shoota + a TL Dakka gun on 6's plus a skorcha autohitting per model. Then you can assault.

I think this appeals to me. I know it's expensive as hell, but that is high speed (14" + D6" + 2D6" assault + 1" reach) and combines serious shooting with substantial assault. I want to do this... primarily because it's way more exciting than anything else I can think of.

I gave nob bikers a couple of tries since I have a unit converted and painted from 5th, but almost every game they were simply gunned down by some multi-damage weapon with decent AP.
And while the ~24" charge and skorcha range is tempting, you won't be reaching something valuable unless your opponent made a deployment error - or - whatever valuable things they could reach they can't kill. PKs and BC don't really do a ton of damage, so you might find yourself bouncing off a manticore.
You also don't want nob bikers to fight a model with a 3 damage CCW.

Last, but not least dakka guns suffer the same fate as big shootas of not actually being good at killing anything at all, since S5 rarely matters over S4, and when it does, the target has good armor and the dakka gun no AP.

If you do want field them anyways, you could go the path of just trying a threat overload. Dakka jets, burna bommers, buggies, skorchas, mek guns and trukks all fall into the same "armor class" as nob bikers, so if there is enough stuff actually causing damage, you might get them to pull off a decent turn 2 assault.
Sadly, most of my opponents played during 5th, so they will turn any nob bikers they see into a crater ASAP.

this would probably be stupid and just not work?...I dunno...if you have plenty of LoS-blocking terrain to hide behind to set this up...would it be at all worth it, to get say, a 30-man mob of sluggaboyz, with a PK nob...and 2-3 10-man sluggaboyz with PK nobz, and spend 2-3 turns mobbing them up into one big blob of 50-60...maybe with gazza, KFF bigmek, waaagh banner nob, and a painboy?...with whatever reamaining points spent on say, stormboyz, or another couple units of boyz or something, to run forward and hold things up while you get that meatball set up?

...it's a dumb idea, right?

...I'm just kinda inspired by currently being 3-0 in 750-point games, running gazza, kff bigmek, waaagh banner nob, 30 boyz with pk nob, 17 boyz with pk nob, and 10 boyz with pk nob...mob up for 27-man...boyz and pk nobz with 5 attacks each on the charge, hitting on 2+, 3+ for the PK's...all 3 have been close games, but the boyz take care of enough stuff while acting as just enough ablative wounds, so that when it's down to basically just the characters, there's usually just scraps of the enemy army left, that gazza just doesn't care about, and handily finishes off

Why not just have 2 mobs of 30 and 2 mobs of ten and merge two squads of 40 instead of one of 50-60.

Also - why bother with the banner? It's only a small relative increase. You could just get more 13 boyz for the same cost that can absorb damage instead. Eg. you could take 2 30 man mobs, plus your 10 man mob for mob up.

Can someone explain KFF in green tide. How many full size boyz mobs can actually fit within a KFF and how realistic is this thing at providing consistent protection? I keep thinking another point now is that boyz get 6+ saves against non-rend weapons, but mostly I'm just worried that the "entirely within 9" rule would make these difficult to maneuver correctly for the benefit to take into effect. Plus, they're kind of expensive...

 TedNugent wrote:
Why not just have 2 mobs of 30 and 2 mobs of ten and merge two squads of 40 instead of one of 50-60.

Can someone please explain the KFF usage now that casualties are no longer from the front - do you just allocate wounds to the models within the buff? This seems like it'd be finnicky with a lot of models, but it doesn't sound like complete trash like 7th ed.

Also - why bother with the banner? It's only a small relative increase. You could just get more 13 boyz for the same cost that can absorb damage instead. Eg. you could take 2 30 man mobs, plus your 10 man mob for mob up.

yeah, the 2 40-mobs would probably be better actually. I just like the idea of one huge mob

with the KFF, the entire unit has to be within 9" to receive the buff...so if you're allocating wounds to a unit receiving the KFF buff, then you would be allocating them to models within the buff ...I can't speak for it's overall effectiveness, I mean, a 5+ only against shooting doesn't sound too great...but, I have passed an awful lot of saves with it, so I dunno, I like it.

the banner...well, hitting on 2+ with boyz just helps to maximise their output I guess...but it also effectively negates the -1 to hit for the PK nobz...he also has "keepin' order", which can make the last of your boyz stick around just a little longer...and I guess the kustom shoota, and the banner itself (basically a big choppa) aren't nothing...but yeah, I guess you could just take more boyz...but, meh, I like it.

 ZoBo wrote:


with the KFF, the entire unit has to be within 9" to receive the buff...so if you're allocating wounds to a unit receiving the KFF buff, then you would be allocating them to models within the buff ...I can't speak for it's overall effectiveness, I mean, a 5+ only against shooting doesn't sound too great...but, I have passed an awful lot of saves with it, so I dunno, I like it.

Do both mobs fit in under the KFF? I'm sort of worried that if I was making a green tide list, it would end up being useless since I would only be able to fit a mob or maybe two at most

 TedNugent wrote:

 ZoBo wrote:


with the KFF, the entire unit has to be within 9" to receive the buff...so if you're allocating wounds to a unit receiving the KFF buff, then you would be allocating them to models within the buff ...I can't speak for it's overall effectiveness, I mean, a 5+ only against shooting doesn't sound too great...but, I have passed an awful lot of saves with it, so I dunno, I like it.

Do both mobs fit in under the KFF? I'm sort of worried that if I was making a green tide list, it would end up being useless since I would only be able to fit a mob or maybe two at most

I was quite worried about that too, but it's an almost 20" circle...2 30-mobs can definitely fit within that, which will at least give them that 5+ while they cross the table, and during overwatch...then they'll charge and be in combat, so if they get out of the buff at that point, it doesn't matter

wonder how 4 30-mobs, and 2 kff bigmeks would go...

I wouldn't bother with KFF and/or the banner with a green tide. The KFF maybe only if there are stormboyz in the list or is a mix with hordes and vehicles. Anyway it's possible to include under the KFF bubble up to 90 orks.

Usually the anti horde weapons are AP- and paying 75+ points for upgrading the boyz save from 6+ to 5+ isn't worth it. Sometimes it does, see the assault cannons spam but in my experience the 6+/6+ granted by the stock t-shirt save and the painboy buff is enough, fielding more bodies is better.

I'm not a fan of the banner either (which IMHO is 25ish points overcosted) since boyz usually do their job anyway. Weridboyz with warpath is an auto take for green tides.

 TedNugent wrote:
Why not just have 2 mobs of 30 and 2 mobs of ten and merge two squads of 40 instead of one of 50-60.

Also - why bother with the banner? It's only a small relative increase. You could just get more 13 boyz for the same cost that can absorb damage instead. Eg. you could take 2 30 man mobs, plus your 10 man mob for mob up.

Can someone explain KFF in green tide. How many full size boyz mobs can actually fit within a KFF and how realistic is this thing at providing consistent protection? I keep thinking another point now is that boyz get 6+ saves against non-rend weapons, but mostly I'm just worried that the "entirely within 9" rule would make these difficult to maneuver correctly for the benefit to take into effect. Plus, they're kind of expensive...

In theory you can get four or even five mobs under the KFF, in practice you usually have two underneath with no problem. The 9" radius covers a lot more area than it sounds, 30 boyz usually take up 6"x5" which easily fits underneath. I suggest trying it out on your dinner table, you'll see.

IMO the main job of the KFF is reducing the casualties from getting shot during the first two turns. During deployment having most of your army within a single KFF is no problem, so when you don't have first turn, at least you take less casualties. When mobs start to spread out for objectives or are getting off charges, I consider the KFF to be nice to have, trying to move the mek to cover as much as possible, but the mobs not going out of their way to stay inside the KFF:

Thanks for the interesting and knowledgeable commentary.

I've got 30 loose sluggas and a based warboss, so I think I'll try that out so that I can get an idea.

I'm still hung up on the 5" movement speed. With a run, you're talking an average of 8.5" a turn with a green tide. With movement largely reliant on random run ranges, you'd also have that shaking up things like KFF ranges, the 3" bubble of the painboy slaking off, warboss bubbles, banner bubbles, etc as massive units crawled up the board. 1" run here, 6" there. So to keep in buff coherency you might even need to cut your run to the lowest common denominator.

With basic marines having a 6" movement speed where they can move and shoot with all weapons, including heavy weapons - is "kiting" not an issue?

I was thinking of a unit - whether that is storm boyz, buggies, transports, bikes, or deff koptas - to tie up the enemy while the boyz lumber across the table. If they are fixed in place, they cannot shoot, they must spend their movement falling back out of combat (another advantage compared to prior editions where they were locked until they failed morale and risked a sweep; MEQs combat tactics excluded).

Storm boyz are fragile, the models are expensive and come in tiny little kits, and those other units seem sub-par to me.

Is movement an issue with green tide - I'm especially worried about getting "kited" across the board when shooting could be blowing craters in boyz units. 2-3 turns of shooting could be devastating.

I know the typical answer is "more boyz." But more boyz isn't going to initiate combat faster.

Also, everyone seems to poo-poo anything that's not storm boyz in the fast attack options and conventional wisdom is that you want the army moving at more or less the same speed. I just don't know that footslogging sluggas are fast enough to even reach a gun line if I have the misfortune of getting a short table edge.

Personally, I think transports still make a lot of sense if just to avoid this, and mob up seems like it has the potential of mitigating at least part of my transport capacity woes.

Am I basically stuck with storm boyz for this role? Deff Koptas seem like they're around 15-20 points overcosted, but at least a lone kopta seems like it might be able to deal with the new 2nd floor ruins ruling and tie up a 2nd floor heavy weapons unit. I played against a guy using the (greatly superior) bloat drone and I was impressed with how he LOS'd behind a building and just hopped over it to assault my unit of devastators in a ruin, effectively taking them out of commission on turn 2.

If you want a pure green tide then yes, stormboyz are your best friends as FA, maybe even a plane but you have to field at least some artillery or all the anti tank in the world will go against the flyer.

IMHO koptas are 40 points overcosted. I'd avoid them completely at the moment.

I usually play with vehicles and single skorchas are definitely not bad. Planes can even shine in mechanized lists.

An horde oriented list with also 4-6 KMKs, two trukks and plane or a couple skorchas could work in a meta that is not extremely competitive. The KFF big mek could make sense for shielding stormboyz and a couple of trukks and/or the flyer.

SemperMortis wrote:

That is 25 inches on average. So with reroll charges you should get there often enough. The only problem is that those Nob Bikerz, even without upgrades are WAY too expensive. And realistically you don't want to upgrade shooting. 42pts for a bare bones Nob Biker isn't incredible. And 3 wounds on a T5 4+ save model isn't exactly hard to kill. If anything this would bring back MSU bikes....except we have the Rule of 3 now....

So often 2-3" over average charge needed for t1 assault plus need another squad to shoot skorchas least casualties push charge range further

tneva82 wrote:
So often 2-3" over average charge needed for t1 assault plus need another squad to shoot skorchas least casualties push charge range further

Average charge for bikes with boss nearby is 24.5". Enough to get to most targets. Not sure I'd take Skorchas though, if you fire at a target you actively decrease your own chances of making the charge. If you don't make the charge you're getting blown off the table next turn and although that's likely to happen anyway at least you get the opportunity to do some damage. Then again you're damaging what? A screen? Hardly seems worth it for the points investment. Now if they could fly and avoid those pesky screens.....

I saw a discussion earlier on Da Jumping units that had advanced and charging. I think you can do this because when you're moved by a psychic power any persistent effects are lost. I would consider the advance negating charge a persistent effect.

3 x 30 Boyz can easily fit under a KFF, it doesn't look great imo but it can be done definitely.

I'm having real trouble with my list at the moment, unfortunately I'm up against lists that can reliably delete upto 30 boys a turn in shooting. My last couple of games have gone really hard, particularly against a strong tau gun line and dark angel bikes and fliers. We use plenty of LoS blocking terrain, but their manoeuvrability and firepower just tears the heart out my army consistently often before we've even begun. It's disheartening. We have a bump up in points of 260 in May, but tbh I'm not sure where to go at the minute.

Discussing it with one of my regular opponents, I'm thinking of trialling truck rush as an alternative supported by kff big mek on bike. Chucking stormboyz in just feels like a waste of points.

At the moment we're limited to 880 points, but will add another 260 in May. I'm currently on;

880pts
Battalion +5cp

Warboss HWKC
Weird boy da jump

25 slugga choppa, Nob BC
25 slugga choppa, Nob BC
9 slugga choppa, Nob BC

Dakkajet 6x supa shootas

Spearhead +1cp
Big Mek KFF

Mek gun KMK
Mek gun KMK
Mek gun KMK

Thinking of adjusting numbers of Boyz, adding a battle wagon, min unit of kommandos with burnas and 3 more KMKs, but I'm not sure how effective that will be TBH.
We were doing OK, but being practically wiped off the board for very little damage inflicted and no objectives achieved in the last 2 games has taken the wind out of my sails and am trying to critically re-evaluate where to go from here.