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So what do you think will happen in the future of 6th edition? Will future codices have rules to buff their assault or move more towards shootyness?

For example, might space marines have assault drop pods (or whatever) that actually gives them a chance to get into close combat? I suppose for Blood Angels it might be something more akin to heroic intervention on an army wide scale. What about orks? Feel No Pain against overwatch? Maybe Eldar have a cover save against overwatch as they're moving so fast towards you?

Or is 6th edition bound, some might say doomed, to focus almost solely on shootyness? Could some codices even be made into effective shooty armies? Maybe. What do you think?

By the way, I'm not looking for a discussion on whether or not 6th edition should continue to focus on shooty armies, but rather if it will.

6th ed is a shooty edition. I can't see how codices can fix this without some pretty outrageous special rules like ignoring wound allocation rules and allowing you to take casualties from the rear of a squad, or ignoring cover rules to allow models in the open to gain cover saves from the rest of their unit again.

Really, I think we assault-minded people are just going to have to wait until 7th ed. In the meantime, we're going to see a continuation of shooty lists, biasing towards gunlines, fliers, and mech lists. Just like now.

I've never particularly been a fan of assault, so I don't really know how much you'd have to "give" an assaulty army to make it good in the current edition. That said, I agree with the guy above when he says that it would have to be pretty dang overpowered good (legitimate turn 1 assault capability in some form?) in order to have assault-dominated lists come back.

Assault isn't dead, creative thinking is. People can't just walk up and butcher things anymore, so once a +1 level of planning was added, people stopped assaulting and went to shooting from ADL gunlines (this edition's mindless gameplay mechanic/"style").

Assault works just fine in 6th edition. Things like Honour Guard, Spawn, DCA, Sanguinary Guard, Genestealers, JuggerLords, DPs, MC, daemons, and more all will earn their points and wreck face just as well (if not better) than they ever did. Not to mention so many Assault characters (Abaddon, Thrakka, Lysander, Arjac, etc.) can still win games. My entire meta has gone shooty, while I've stayed choppy and I've done just fine (if not really good, my CSM list is all 6th edition, for example).

While we will have to see what tau dex does to everything. As it stands right now assault is still very powerful. Chaos has a very CC centric core. Daemons are powerful and CC oriented. Some of the top necron builds are balanced shooting and CC. Basically the edition might lean toward shooting but the top armies all bring VERY competent hand to hand ATM. Sure a khorne rush list might not do so hot, and BA got the Nerfhammer. That doesn't mean assault is dead though.

I'd say units are either bad or good at CC. There isn't much of an in-between. I find that more realistic as CC is much more of a skill than firing a weapon.

ell I think that shooty armies were getting ROLLED with such regularity that there was hardly a point to the game.

Now assault armies have to earn it. In other words, its more fair. And I for one am glad to see more parity.

All the assaulty dudes complain and say "assault is doomed". But it isn't. You can charge twice as far as ever. You get Hammer of Wrath and similar crazinss to help mitigate Ovrwatch losses (some units do, not all) and there is the matter of FLEET units making 8-12" charges a reality!

I will not say that its not a "shooty" Edition. I WILL say its far more balanced. You MUST now take shoting to go withj your overwhelmning red tidal wave and yes, must actually meneuver and work for your charges. But at last your opponents aren't rolling over and playing dead like they did in 5E AT TIMES.

I think Black Templars will be the first serious foray into a stronger melee threat.

Some ideas for new abilities and gear:

Charge distance for a melee force (Orks and Tyranids for example): 2"+2D6 (mximum of 12"). Call it a "Stampede" and only allow it on models when they are NOT crossing difficult terrain by the shortest means necessary to get models into base.

Special Grenades to disallow Overwatch if you start the charge within 6".

Perhaps an ability to Pile In 6" instead of 3"

I think I would oppose "Assault Pods" pretty much across the board. Just a really..Just no.

Assault pods and assaulting directly from deep strike is not very likely to happen in this edition and I doubt it will be introduced in next edition.

We dont need to return to the era of rhino rush armies either.

 Jancoran wrote:
[...]there is the matter of FLEET units making 8-12" charges a reality!

Kinda like how in last edition, they could do 6" charge + D6" run, huh? You could see the 6" static charge distance as always rolling a 6 on 1 of the 2D6 of this ed, I don't think having the fleet reroll right now is the same as 100% 6 on 1 of the 2D6. Also, for squishy units, the chance of getting 2" charge outweighs the chance of getting 12", because of overwatch, because of shorter disembark distance, because 6th ed is the shooty edition. Sure enough I'd risk overwatch if I'm playing necron wraiths and go for a <8" charge(average w/o fleet is around 7.3"~), but on my DE? I won't even bother until I get within 6", 8" if I'm desperate(8"~ is average with fleet), so combining those with the fact that I lost 2" in disembark, I've actually lost a lot of distance this ed... Don't get me wrong, it's certainly a buff for non-fleet units and units that can take some hits, but it's certainly not all rainbow and sunshine.

"But they can shoot this ed!!" I'm sure nids and all those assault units w/o guns are absolutely thrilled! I'll let them know right away!!

Assault isn't dead, it's just different, and not every unit that was good at it in 5ed is good at it anymore. But play a dedicated Demon Assault list, and say Assault is dead, or invisizoo (does not apply if you play Tau, heh). And of course, Wraithwing uses assault to control the board. Assault is more about controlling the table now, rather than just running across the board and winning immediately. It's now a tactical tool.

JWhex wrote:
Assault pods and assaulting directly from deep strike is not very likely to happen in this edition and I doubt it will be introduced in next edition.

Yeah, GW removed the vast majority of options to immediately assault without ever facing shooting for a very good reason. It isn't very much fun when a unit shows up from reserve and immediately assaults and wipes out one of your units while the only thing you can do to avoid it is to throw a meatshield unit in its path and lose something more expendable instead.

 Peregrine wrote:

JWhex wrote:
Assault pods and assaulting directly from deep strike is not very likely to happen in this edition and I doubt it will be introduced in next edition.

Yeah, GW removed the vast majority of options to immediately assault without ever facing shooting for a very good reason. It isn't very much fun when a unit shows up from reserve and immediately assaults and wipes out one of your units while the only thing you can do to avoid it is to throw a meatshield unit in its path and lose something more expendable instead.

But was this ever an issue in the first place? You could never assault out of deep strike last edition so that isn't an issue. Outflanking assaults were only dangerous to units within 12 inches of a board edge, possibly less if your unit is in cover and clever use of you units blocking the board edge reduced their options. (This all ignores units with a special rule which lets them ignore the restriction on assaults.)

I feel it was an unnecesary change as overwatch, random charge distance and the ability to challenge out the opponents uber killy character were enough to tone down assault.

I'm just glad I didn't buy those Ork kommando models before 6th came out.

 Madcat87 wrote:
But was this ever an issue in the first place? You could never assault out of deep strike last edition so that isn't an issue. Outflanking assaults were only dangerous to units within 12 inches of a board edge, possibly less if your unit is in cover and clever use of you units blocking the board edge reduced their options. (This all ignores units with a special rule which lets them ignore the restriction on assaults.)

I feel it was an unnecesary change as overwatch, random charge distance and the ability to challenge out the opponents uber killy character were enough to tone down assault.

I'm just glad I didn't buy those Ork kommando models before 6th came out.

You never faced Genestealers in 5th, I assume. GW changed it so nothing could assault if it was arriving at all from reserves, whether deep strike, transported in an assault boat, outflanking, or anything else, for a very good reason - being able to completely tear a unit apart without warning with a squad that just appears isn't fun to face. Even Overwatch won't help very much.

 Lobukia wrote:
Assault isn't dead, creative thinking is. People can't just walk up and butcher things anymore, so once a +1 level of planning was added, people stopped assaulting and went to shooting from ADL gunlines (this edition's mindless gameplay mechanic/"style").

Creative thinking won't help a wall of Orks charge any more effectively across 90" of open space at yet another gunline...

Give my Ork boys 6+ FNP when they`re charging and ill quite bitching about overwatch...

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Assault isn't dead, creative thinking is. People can't just walk up and butcher things anymore, so once a +1 level of planning was added, people stopped assaulting and went to shooting from ADL gunlines (this edition's mindless gameplay mechanic/"style").

Creative thinking won't help a wall of Orks charge any more effectively across 90" of open space at yet another gunline...

Play somewhere not terrible?

There's no reason to play on a table devoid of terrain. It's also not hard to get a few peices of LoS blocking terrain. If no one else will, go to a pet store and buy a few Aquarium paices - large logs and rocks. Done. $50 has just made your Ork army able to cross a board.

I've had an easier time this codex fighting in CC... But I play Chaos...

Running up squads of Zerkers in LRs with a simple 5 point upg (Dirge Caster) basically destroys any thought of Tau resistance, fleeing and pretty much guarantee's a 2nd turn assault...

Plus, since vehicles suffer an extra HP when taking a penetrating hit in melee, there really isn't any problems :3

It probably doesn't help that I play Blood Angels, but this doesn't seem to be a balanced edition at all. All the rules give advantage to shooting and nerfs assault. I'd rather have the static 6 inch charge instead of the 2d6. Knowing how far I can go is far better then getting stuck out in the open and shot to pieces. You have all the distance I have to cover to get to you to shoot me, and then one more time just for good measure before I even get to try to hit back. It doesn't matter what kind of saves I'm rocking. 2+ armor & 5+ FNP means nothing with the sheer amount if shots coming at you. Also, if I have a 2+ save I probably only have 5 guys that cost the same amount as your 10 of 12 that lol as they shoot them down.
Even cover and los are becoming less useful. How many tricks do tau have to completely ignore cover? Everyone in that codex almost. And los is ignored with almost as much frequency.
Balanced? I don't think so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...all that being said. Some very simple rules would breath some life back into assault. I don't think an assault out of reserve rule would be that crazy. You get to shoot me starting from turn one, fair is fair after all.

 -Loki- wrote:
You never faced Genestealers in 5th, I assume. GW changed it so nothing could assault if it was arriving at all from reserves, whether deep strike, transported in an assault boat, outflanking, or anything else, for a very good reason - being able to completely tear a unit apart without warning with a squad that just appears isn't fun to face. Even Overwatch won't help very much.

To be fair, however, that's still possible with shooting units. Drop pod in 10 sternguard with combi weapons. Farsight bombs that choose to deep strike. Flyer spam (5 Night Scythes appear and shoot you), etc. I don't think assaulting from reserves would be a huge issue. If anything, it's much easier to avoid (a.k.a you're guaranteed to avoid it if you really want to) than shooting units from reserves.

As for cc effectiveness this edition, it's definitely not dead (I play Nids, so I'm speaking from experience). I agree that it requires more tactics, which I'm in favor of. I'd just like to see more powerful close-combat units. Take Genestealers, for example. I don't mind being forced to hug cover or move carefully. I don't mind losing a few more models to overwatch. Just let the remaining 5 Genestealers tear apart any squad they touch.

I hate the 2d6 assault rule...it should be 6 inches with some units getting the d6 bonus...more random doesn't always mean more fun or interesting

BrotherVord wrote:
I hate the 2d6 assault rule...it should be 6 inches with some units getting the d6 bonus...more random doesn't always mean more fun or interesting

I hate the 2D6 Assault rule simple because if you fail your charge you don't move up the actual amount you rolled..

What if you rolled 1" below your needed charge range... With current crap, (Tau I'm looking at you >.&gt Units and overwatch and just run away to further hurt your moral, by standing just that much further out of your reach Q_Q

I wouldn't mind if charging meant you moved your 2D6 regardless..

 Lobukia wrote:
Assault isn't dead, creative thinking is. People can't just walk up and butcher things anymore, so once a +1 level of planning was added, people stopped assaulting and went to shooting from ADL gunlines (this edition's mindless gameplay mechanic/"style").

Assault works just fine in 6th edition. Things like Honour Guard, Spawn, DCA, Sanguinary Guard, Genestealers, JuggerLords, DPs, MC, daemons, and more all will earn their points and wreck face just as well (if not better) than they ever did. Not to mention so many Assault characters (Abaddon, Thrakka, Lysander, Arjac, etc.) can still win games. My entire meta has gone shooty, while I've stayed choppy and I've done just fine (if not really good, my CSM list is all 6th edition, for example).

Thank you. Assault armies aren't dead, its just that a lot of people just don't want to put in the effort to make them work because it isn't as simple as it used to be.

While I do agree with 6th edition that future battles are bound to be more shooty (and should be frankly), I'd imagine that some things would be harder to suppress than others like Monstrous Creatures, heftier Walkers, etc. and should come default with fleet at least, or a set distance for charging.

Jancoran wrote:All the assaulty dudes complain and say "assault is doomed". But it isn't. You can charge twice as far as ever. You get Hammer of Wrath and similar crazinss to help mitigate Ovrwatch losses (some units do, not all) and there is the matter of FLEET units making 8-12" charges a reality!

For every one rule that they added in 6th edition that even arguably helped assault, they added in 8 that decidedly helped shooting. If you're getting consistently killed in close combat in 6th edition, that's your fault, not because assaulting is good.

The core rules required to make assault work, like by-unit cover, wound allocation not taking the guys away from the front, being able to assault out of a transport if it didn't move first, having hidden weapon upgrades, assaulting out of outflanking, and a whole lot more was summarily executed by 6th ed. If you think it's that easy, I'd like to see some battle reports of you beating face with an assault-themed army.

Assault in tiny doses on certain units can be made to work in certain circumstances. If you can't figure out how to use speed bumps and overwatch and premeasuring with shooting against random charge rolls, or any of the new tricks shooting got, then that says a lot more about skill in shooting, and a lot less about how well the rules still make assault.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Assault isn't dead, creative thinking is. People can't just walk up and butcher things anymore, so once a +1 level of planning was added, people stopped assaulting and went to shooting from ADL gunlines (this edition's mindless gameplay mechanic/"style").

Creative thinking won't help a wall of Orks charge any more effectively across 90" of open space at yet another gunline...

Why on earth would anyone charge a wall of Orks 90" through open space?! If you do, you should get gunned down. The furthest distance a 6"x 4" table can generate is 86". That's corner to corner. If you need something to get somewhere, deploy it centrally... now the furthest distance is 50"-54"... put your orks in wagons, and with combat speed+ full out, you're going to get there in 3 turns. With some planning during deployment, you can easily be assaulting on turn 3... and shoot the whole way there (Orks love snap firing). Excellent example on how not to ride a bike

Tau have only now added to the problems of CC. Stick them behind an ADL with all their shenanigans on overwatch and you've got trouble. The only way balance in favour of assualt is that the majority of games are multiple objective/relic, so forcing the turtle/dakka army to stick their necks out from behind the ADL at some point in the game ...

Cover is not a straght forward issue for assault armies. OK you get a cover save in advancing, but generally get their slower as you don't get to move the 6" a turn so often you have to take a turn of extra shooting to get there. Then, if your opponent is in cover you have to take overwatch and then go last.

Well, according to my experiences - especially after the new Tau codex - I can only have the following comment about assault in 6th edition:

Even if you can pull it off somehow, you have to hit something big or you have to hit the whole enemy army, or you are dead. Like, why would you even bother with assault when you can have all the shooty goodness?

I started playing Dark Eldar at the start of 6th and I've found that their certain assault units can be really effective when supported.

I usually run a Succubus with 4 Bloodbrides in a Venom as my only dedicated assault unit and it's yet to disappoint me. When properly supported by a shooty army, I've found that my opponent's just don't pay much attention to the Succubus and co. making them an excellent bully-unit.

I think the transition to sixth has led to full assault armies (barring 'nids and horde orks) being almost unworkable. I think the way to make assault work in sixth is to make your opponent effectively ignore the assault unit to try and deal with your shooting - especially so with DE.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
I think the transition to sixth has led to full assault armies (barring 'nids and horde orks) being almost unworkable.

Iranna.

Full assault Tyranids was pretty unworkable before 6th, people just have a hard time differentiating 'close range' with 'assault'. Tyranids play the way they always have. Get close, unleash very high ROF anti infantry fire power, then finish off in assault. All assault Tyranid armies have always bounced off of pretty much everything, because they lack the sheer brute force that armies like Orks had and the durability to have staying power of other assault armies.

6th edition has, however, made spporting Tyranid assault units a lot easier, with the abundance of multiple power psychic Tyranids that end up turning them in for Biomancy rolls means there's a lot of Enfeeble and Endurance to go around (for example, my last game, though I admit I got very, very lucky, I had 3 Enfeebles and 4 Endurances across two Zoanthropes, a Hive Tyrant and a 4 power Tervigon). Those powers saved my ass by giving a lot of my squads FNP saves when they otherwise would have bit the dust and also made his Hammernators S4 against my Tervigon, which was hilarious. They won me the game against his Blood Angels.

Assaulting is far from dead. I wouldn't do it with a unit that moves 6" a turn though, even in a craptastic transport I can't bring myself to do it. If I want to assault I better close the gap quick either via moving 12" or drop pods. I play 2 armies with no pods so I have to go with moving fast.