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 catbarf wrote:
I get that sense too, so lemme just try to coherently state my position.

My experience has been that a handgun is the weapon you get when you aren't likely to use it and anything more effective would be too bulky, and the development of less-bulky but effective long arms with which to equip the historical recipients of handguns has greatly lessened their use. If I have to clear a building, I don't want a handgun, I want a compact carbine. But when I had to work in a plainclothes environment where an M4 would spook the locals, that's when I carried a G17; not because it was my first choice, but because it was my only choice.

I think that the same advances that make carbines more useful also have considerably boosted pistol capabilities. Most WW II pistols offered you a mag and a spare, for a maximum of 14-16 shots. The Browning Hi Power was a game-changer.

But now? Rigs with 3 spares give you 60+ rounds, which means that you've actually got suppressive firepower in your pocket.

That narrows the gap somewhat, which is why the Army (and other militaries) keep buying the dumb things.

Anyways, I still enjoy pistol shooting. My most recent acquisition was a Mateba autorevolver and I've been having a blast with how the recoil operation tames the recoil of full-power .357.

A true range toy if there ever was one. I'm more interested in military service pistols. Can you tell?

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

SMGs have very marginal range and even PCCs can only go 100 yards, which is fine in a very dense urban environment, but even there you can find yourself outranged by someone across the town square or a river.

Statements like that ignore that the military isn't a bunch of individual warriors but a system. Peoples rifle/carbine/pistol is typically the cheapest and least important bit of kit on a planners mind. Who traditionally got a sub machine gun in WW2? Speaking for the Brits the section commander who was meant to either lead and direct, or spearhead assaults where the short ranged high rate of fire was needed. Otherwise, just like today, the section LMG/HMG did most of the heavy lifting. In that river scenario the section would keep the gun fed and the gun would do the long range engagement while mortars or other support weapons could be called up.

 catbarf wrote:

Anyways, nowadays the submachine gun is on the way out worldwide, as modern rifle-caliber loadings provide both better subsonic performance and better ballistics in short barrel lengths. Carbines are now the standard, be it bullpup or conventional layout. I'm not aware of any Western (or Eastern, for that matter) military doctrinally replacing a carbine with a handgun in the last twenty years.

I think it has some resilience in paramilitary forces. Cost though is a big factor. The US for example seem to want rifles/carbines for their paramilitary bits, but they are operating in a very different market to many countries.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Who still uses bullpups?

Bullpups come and go. The Brits are one extreme with the whole 'rifleman' ethos, the Israel's at the other (how do we make an even smaller carbine for fighting in hive cities?). For the rest this list looks pretty comprehensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup

Do a good job of going over the pros and cons too. We probably shouldn't get sidetracked into a bullpup discussion though as there are no winners in there... For what its worth the next round of military small arms innovation is going to be in response to ammunition changes now the US has broke its own NATO instilled hegemony for rifle rounds.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
So why are there all these new contracts for them (pistols)? If they're duds, on the way out, no real point, why did the US just make a huge new order? And why do the Spec Ops guys always get fancy ones? If they have no role other than to buy time, why are they even bothering with them?

The answer is that they do serve a role and lots of militaries spend a lot of time (and money) on them.

A lot of time, yes. A lot of money? Not in the scheme of things (their other programmes). Countries keep the same pistol for ages, it is generally more hassle than its worth getting a new pistol and a system (logs, storage, training, etc.) around it.

 catbarf wrote:

(Edit: And note that this is pretty much the story with all the countries that adopted bullpups, and why I was pressing you for an example of one that went back to submachine guns. The trend among the nations that were formerly bullpup enthusiasts has been replacing them with more modern, AR-based carbines on a one-for-one basis. The carbines do the same thing the bullpups did, which is provide a one-size-fits-all solution for riflemen, SF, and second-line combatants, but take advantage of modern developments in ballistics to do so with a shorter barrel and obviate the need for the bullpup layout.)

I think the countries switching back are doing it for a bunch of reasons. The countries going for a conventional rifle are doing so often because their own manufacturers aren't what they were, they don't like the manufactures making modern bullpups and they have political and commercial (cheap, supported) reasons to get one rifle over another. So countries that aren't fussed about individual firepower and want something good, cheap, customisable and supported for the next century, the M4 is a great choice due to the US civilian industry being duel purpose here.

 catbarf wrote:
The distinction is relevant because the P90 and MP7 were not designed to be issued to assault teams or squad leaders, they were meant and are overwhelmingly issued to clerks, cooks, and drivers. Functionally, they're submachine guns; tactically, they're intended as second-line weapons, not peers to rifles as subguns once were.

Note that we have seen SOF adopt these PDWs in small numbers for very specific roles- often as secondary weapons in lieu of pistols. By and large, it's carbines as primary weapons nowadays for infantrymen and rear-echelon personnel alike.

Well they were intended to be a rear echelon weapon that could defeat body armour in use at the time. So the SMG armour piecing capability is favoured for some tasks by other forces.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:I think that the same advances that make carbines more useful also have considerably boosted pistol capabilities. Most WW II pistols offered you a mag and a spare, for a maximum of 14-16 shots. The Browning Hi Power was a game-changer.

But now? Rigs with 3 spares give you 60+ rounds, which means that you've actually got suppressive firepower in your pocket.

That narrows the gap somewhat, which is why the Army (and other militaries) keep buying the dumb things.

I'm not really sure that double-stack is a game-changer, given that it's been the norm since the end of WW2. Having rounds on tap is good; being able to hit your target and inflict credible results is something else, and that's where the instability of a handgun combined with the lack of penetration of typical handgun ammunition become significant problems. Making noise is all well and good, but if Ahmed's amped up from chewing khat all afternoon I'm not betting on that scaring him off.

As Chris pointed out, the development of high-velocity armor-piercing pistol calibers, able to reach out to carbine ranges and challenge contemporary body armor, breathed some new life into those PDW submachine guns. The use of compact stocked platforms is also a plus, as you can carry an MP7 much like a grossly oversized pistol and make hits that would be extremely difficult with a conventional handgun. And you're right that there have been advances in bullet design that have made pistol rounds substantially more effective than they used to be, particularly small-caliber high-velocity rounds, though there is a direct tradeoff between expansion and penetration.

(The German 7.63x25, or the Soviet 7.62x25 based on it, is a spicy little round that will also vibe check body armor at 200m, and often came in pistol platforms with detachable shoulder stocks- everything old is new again)

If anything, I'd say a 'pistol renaissance' might come with the greater use of stocked pistols using modern technology and materials to retain the overall form factor of a pistol. We've seen the Flux Defense system making some waves in the last couple of years, being the first stocked-pistol platform that's readily holsterable and avoids the pitfall of giving it the overall bulk of a (much more effective) carbine. Though when it comes down to it, it's basically trying to turn a pistol into a tiny PCC, in recognition that a conventional pistol is not ideal.

Also worth noting that the general decline in civilian marksmanship makes training people to be effective with small arms all the more difficult, and handguns are pretty notoriously difficult to shoot accurately, especially under stress. Stocks go a long ways towards improving hit rates, and I've seen police agencies in the US express interest in holsterable stocked-pistol configurations for that reason.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:A true range toy if there ever was one. I'm more interested in military service pistols. Can you tell?

Oh yeah, I've got a bit of a milsurp collection myself. On that note...



Manurhin-manufactured Walther P1 for the West Berlin police, a reworked Mauser C96 relined to 9x19, and a Dreyse M1908 that my great-grandfather took as a trophy at Ypres.

Got a lot more than that but seemed particularly relevant to current discussion. The C96 is an awkward beast, but on the wooden shoulder stock it's exceptionally controllable and accurate. Loading from stripper clips is surprisingly easy, though the ten-round capacity sucks by modern standards.



And said shoulder stock doubles as a holster, into which the pistol is placed, and then the whole ensemble fits into a leather harness with belt loops to wear it on the hip.



PDW, 1918 edition.

 catbarf wrote:
PDW, 1918 edition.

Yet it was also re-worked into the Schnellfeur and Spanish select-fire variants that were very much used as SMGs. Oh where to draw the line?!

Our collection has considerable overlap. At some point I'd like to get a P1, but until my unfortunate canoe accident, I also had a Dreyse and a C96 built out of a parts gun. I had it restored to its pristine 7.63mm glory, and it's a hoot and half to shoot. With a stock it's a tack-hammer.

I mean it was a hoot and a half. Alas, like all of my other firearms, it perished in freak boating accidents.

Small update to my much earlier air rifle scope post. I ended up getting a reflex style dot site to go on my air rifle. Today I started getting it zeroed and so far so good I am happy with how this is progressing. My largest limitations right now are my flashlight being able to illuminate the target. I'm not shooting from a huge distance either maybe 30 or 40 feet. I need to measure the distance again. But I'm hitting soda cans tonight in the dark so not too bad. I plan to move down to smaller targets but there could be a sighting issue just because of the front site post is covered with a ring and that also touches the dot but I think I can overcome that with more dirt time.
The dot site does red/blue and green which is neat. Also the dots are so bright that the flash light is in no way a problem. I was worried about red on red being an issue and it's not.
Wanted to say thankyou for the earlier help.

Firearms are banned in my communist country so all I have are pneumatic selfdefence-measures such as a pneumatic (big pump included) handgun (its bigger than a magnum though) a carbine(wood) and a big rifle(synthetic) that has a silencer.

No bullets either, just the BB like rounds (not entirely BB, because theres rounds like hyenas that are pointed and shrapnel rounds, have those both incase there is a zombie apocalypse)

 warhead01 wrote:
My largest limitations right now are my flashlight being able to illuminate the target. I'm not shooting from a huge distance either maybe 30 or 40 feet.

It sounds like you just need a better flashlight. You don't have to go too crazy with it the Energizer brand LED lights at Home Depot/Lowes work great for $10-25.

On the subject of budget short range scopes, I picked up one of these a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier with it. Its kind of a ghetto ACOG. I really like that ACSS reticle and the field of view, very easy to use with both eyes open. I like it a lot more than my more expensive optics and will probably get the 5x at some point.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-2-5x-compact-ar15-scope-with-patented-cqb-acss-reticle-pac2-5x

 Slowroll wrote:
On the subject of budget short range scopes, I picked up one of these a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier with it. Its kind of a ghetto ACOG. I really like that ACSS reticle and the field of view, very easy to use with both eyes open. I like it a lot more than my more expensive optics and will probably get the 5x at some point.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-2-5x-compact-ar15-scope-with-patented-cqb-acss-reticle-pac2-5x

Worth also noting that prism optics use an etched reticle, which greatly reduces the starburst effect experienced by people with astigmatism.

For those part of a gun club or shooting range in general, do they have particular maintenance requirements before letting you have some fun?

I mean, I suspect most gun owners are perfectly competent if not outright fastidious about proper cleaning and maintenance. But as with all things in life, I’m sure there are Idiot Exceptions who need such rules.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those part of a gun club or shooting range in general, do they have particular maintenance requirements before letting you have some fun?

I mean, I suspect most gun owners are perfectly competent if not outright fastidious about proper cleaning and maintenance. But as with all things in life, I’m sure there are Idiot Exceptions who need such rules.

There aren't any inspections, if that's what you mean.

Obviously, a weapon with visible issues will get the immediate attention of the range officer, but maintenance issues typically manifest only during operation, and if someone's struggling, the range officer will usually get involved.

Most ranges ban the use of anything other than factory loaded ammo in the original box due to the possibility of a kaboom. One range that I used to frequent often had a sign saying "NO RELOADS, FACTORY AMMO ONLY" and below it was a S&W 686 that had the top strap blown off and one of the cylinder chambers ripped wide open. Guy loaded rifle powder in his .357 mag casings. Miraculously, no one was injured.

I own several CZ pistols, my/the 75 is circa 1980s, and is one of the most prolific world used service pistol, they actually produced an "assault" variant at one point. It came with a 3 round burst option, and a front grip that had a literal bayonet attachment. I'm guessing even Solid Snake would have trouble figuring out how to actually use it...

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Sounds like a lack of imagination and the will to do something magnificent.

So would you hire a mechanic whose only tool is a pipe wrench in the hope that his imagination and will can do something magnificent?

Because I'd like to see that.

Of course you would because it would be magnificent display of skill and bravado that challenges preconceived notions of art and car repair. It would be GLORIOUS.

Generally the rule is unless you are doing clearly dumb shizz they're not going to say anything.

As for ammo restrictions, in my experience they only limit your ammo in cases where the range provides steel targets, you're renting guns from the range, or its an indoor range. Hand-loads could obviously potentially damage steel targets that factory ammo with known effects would not, and same goes for rental guns. And indoor ranges don't want people chewing up their backstops with hot handloads, especially on rifles.

And nobody in their right mind would use AP ammo on steel plates except for testing purposes. Steel targets are usually $80+ each and wear out fast enough without someone blowing holes in them.

There are two ranges near me. A public range on the mountain and a private range near my parents. Public range is a 20 minute drive into the wilderness. Other than the sheriffs sometimes showing up looking for anybody who brought out the spicy illegal stuff nobody is there to tell you what to do. And unless you are shooting incendiaries into the bushes, littering, or something nothing is prohibited.

The private range only has limits on rapid fire and respecting the cease fire. You have to provide your own targets, and its paper only. No steel allowed.

Hand-loading is a big part of the hobby, so banning it is not usually conducive to good business unless there are other limitations like the ones above. Don't want to offend the fudds that pay to show up every week to plink with their bolt action .308 that they haven't bought factory ammo for since Reagan was in office.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hand-loading is a big part of the hobby, so banning it is not usually conducive to good business unless there are other limitations like the ones above. Don't want to offend the fudds that pay to show up every week to plink with their bolt action .308 that they haven't bought factory ammo for since Reagan was in office.

The one that bans reloads is attached to a gun store and they sell ammo. They don't particularly cater to the DIY crowd, who I imagine already belong to one of the many gun clubs in the area - or likely have their own private range. Everyone I know who reloads also has a personal range on the back 40.

Huhuhuhuhuhuh. Hand. Huhuhuhuhuhuh. Loads.

What? You expected better? From me?

Ahem. Anyways.

I think I’ve asked this before, but on hand loads (which childish innuendo aside, I understand to be rounds made at home from, well, kits) and shop bought? Does preference vary club to club, county to county, state to state and so on?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Huhuhuhuhuhuh. Hand. Huhuhuhuhuhuh. Loads.

What? You expected better? From me?

Shut up, Beavis.

Ahem. Anyways.

I think I’ve asked this before, but on hand loads (which childish innuendo aside, I understand to be rounds made at home from, well, kits) and shop bought? Does preference vary club to club, county to county, state to state and so on?

Club rules vary by club. I don't know of any state than prohibits reloading ammunition, nor do I know if they even could if they wanted. It's not always easy to tell.

Reloading ammunition has quite a spectrum of sophistication and there are firms that "re-manufacture" it. Those have wider acceptance because there is some sort of QC on it and also someone to sue if it blows up your weapon.

I do not partake of it, but I sell my used brass to those who do. That's the core of the thing - you buy the factory-made components of ammunition and assemble them yourself. The key is consistency at every step of the way, and a single person operating on their own...you can see the problem.

For some ammunition, though, it's the only real option because ammunition is no longer in production or is extraordinarily expensive.

Its very much a personal thing. There are many many books publishing data and charts about various loads. Every manufacturer makes their own with recommendations for their bullets and powders. Then you can make your own adjustments from there and those who get real deep into it will have their own secret formulas that they use for various calibers.

For reference, the formula for handloading involves the following variables,

Type of bullet. Weight, dimensions, hollow point, soft-point. How deep do you seat it into the brass, etc....

Powder. What kind of powder, how much, how much empty volume is in the casing between the bullet and the powder.

Primer. Generally, there isn't as much variation in primers, but some calibers give you the option to pick between Magnum and standard primers. Magnum primers are more powerful and will cause the powder to ignite faster.


To give an example of some of my personal handloads,

For .44 magnum, I have a formula where I use a powder called TCM that is normally for use in smaller handgun calibers. It burns fast and accelerates quickly. This gives a little more oomph than factory .44 magnum which is intended for use in pistols or revolvers, which means they are less powerful than they could be if you instead approach it from a carbine perspective.

For shotshells, I have a semi-unique self-defense round I make. It is a standard formula for 00 buckshot. I use the manufacturer's recommended powder for 1 and 1/8 oz of buckshot. Normally, this means 9 pellets of 00 buckshot. but my change is I only use 6 pellets of 00 buck and swap 3 of the buckshot pellets for an equal weight of number 4 birdshot.

Similar to the .44 magnum, I also load hot 9mm for use in my KP9. They'd be a little spicy for a handgun, but in the much stronger action of a carbine they are just fine.

I load 8mm mauser for my Hakim simply because the only 8mm you can find around here is pushing $3 a round because all anybody stocks is lead free hunting projectiles and not cheaper plinking ammo, though even that will still be $1.50 to $2 a round. But I can load my own for half the price.

I dunno, in any range I've ever shot at, if you start throwing super hot rounds down range at their expensive steel targets, they will be out promptly to have a quick word. Everyone can tell the difference between a .270 loaded to spec, and a .270 loaded beyond safe tolerances.

I get practicing how you expect to play, with +P+ pistol ammo in a defense handgun, but in anything beyond the pistol range, if you are throwing stupid home build lego rounds downrange next to me, I'm moving away from you, and the ticking time bomb of a rifle you are using. I've seen too many guns go boom from accidental bad loads. Shotguns especially. Something about 12gauge makes people think they're easier to hand load. Yeah, I'd rather you didn't endanger everyone at the range to test out that new 60g .308 you've made at home. I'd rather you go meet jesus on your own range.

 Grey Templar wrote:
For shotshells, I have a semi-unique self-defense round I make. It is a standard formula for 00 buckshot. I use the manufacturer's recommended powder for 1 and 1/8 oz of buckshot. Normally, this means 9 pellets of 00 buckshot. but my change is I only use 6 pellets of 00 buck and swap 3 of the buckshot pellets for an equal weight of number 4 birdshot.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be very cautious in using anything other than factory loads for a self-defense purpose. In the awful event that they are employed, the local prosecutor may well decided that those aren't just a minor tweaks but Death-dealing Hell-bolts painstaking built by a bloodthirsty killer eager to give them a try.

I won't use factory reloads for anything other than target practice. I know a pretty serious outfit that went under because of QC issues. The handgun ammo I bought in 9mm and .380 ran fine, but the .223 was really unreliable, failure to fire in every 25 rounds or so.

I have a friend who liked to buy sketchy gun show ammo, always in unmarked plastic containers (we joked he bought it out of a trunk in an alley) and it was all fun and games until he touched off a very stout .38 that caused us all to flinch followed by a pop and no kick. If he'd reversed order he put them in the cylinder, he'd have wrecked his pistol.

As a general rule in self defense rounds, you want them to completely kill, not wound. In that aspect, the only reason to go with non-00 buck in self defense is to reduce property damage or penetration. A 00buck in 3" magnum load can go through quite a few walls and windows. So if you live in an apartment or a cheap house, bird shot is preferable. However you break the first rule, which is kill the intruder.

Live intruders lead to major lawsuits later. There are numerous cases where granny with a shot gun and rock salt (Generally considered safe less-lethal) gets sued for inhumane assault. Then again you can always double tap, but be prepared for a massive police snafu, and likely arrest for murder.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I dunno, in any range I've ever shot at, if you start throwing super hot rounds down range at their expensive steel targets, they will be out promptly to have a quick word. Everyone can tell the difference between a .270 loaded to spec, and a .270 loaded beyond safe tolerances.

I honestly find it hard to believe this actually happens in real life. Muzzle flash, concussion, and noise are tremendously affected by barrel length and muzzle devices. You need to be extremely familiar with the exact gun and setup to gauge whether the ammo is hot or not; .270 Win through a 16" barrel looks a lot more impressive than it is.

If someone complained that my Automag III looks a little spicy, I would politely ask them to go away- that fireball is ballistic potential turning into light and noise, reducing factory .30 Carbine to the level of .357 Mag.

The only time I've been engaged by an RSO over it, she just asked if I use it to hunt dinosaurs.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be very cautious in using anything other than factory loads for a self-defense purpose.

I've seen a lot of allegations over the years that using homemade ammo, hollowpoints, modified weapons, NFA items, et cetera will give the prosecutor rope to hang you with. But I have been given explicit legal advice that that is not a realistic concern, and that I should be much, much more concerned with where and when lethal force is employed. Gary Fadden walked free. YMMV.

So steel plate targets at most ranges have posted signs saying what is an is not allowed in the forms of ammo on specific ranges, ie no rifle shooting at the pistol range. For obvious safety and range discipline.

To completely disregard their intent on that factor, makes you the jerk, not them. (Proverbial you, not replying to anyone specifically). And yes, if you've spent enough time around discharging firearms, you can tell instantly the difference in the crack of a Remington green box of 115g 9mm, or a +P+ 130g Buffalo Bore. It's not even hard.

Same with any round. You can tell the difference between a .22lr and a .223 because one has a lot more @$$ on it.

 catbarf wrote:
I've seen a lot of allegations over the years that using homemade ammo, hollowpoints, modified weapons, NFA items, et cetera will give the prosecutor rope to hang you with. But I have been given explicit legal advice that that is not a realistic concern, and that I should be much, much more concerned with where and when lethal force is employed. Gary Fadden walked free. YMMV.

Yeah, but those things are not at all the same. If you use factory self-defense ammo and can point out its ubiquity in the marketplace, note that law enforcement employs it, etc., that's a very different thing than the prosecutor being able to claim that unlike a "good gun owner," you spent hours agonizing over the best way to torment your victims. All the legal advice I've gotten on that is resoundingly negative.

It's a totally different category than having comfort grips, or after-market sights. The prosecutor now has an entirely new avenue of attack that most jurors will think is strange and sinister. Think Hollywood showing weirdos cutting crosses in their bullets and such.

Odds are whatever gain one gets is marginal, which is why risk analysis says it's one less thing to worry about.

Besides, the real advantage of reloading is volume. If you want to also have competition-level precision, again, no one cares.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And yes, if you've spent enough time around discharging firearms, you can tell instantly the difference in the crack of a Remington green box of 115g 9mm, or a +P+ 130g Buffalo Bore. It's not even hard.

Same with any round. You can tell the difference between a .22lr and a .223 because one has a lot more @$$ on it.

Absolutely. If some guy wants to blast away with his gold-plated Desert Eagle in .50AE, people will see him coming and choose a different lane than the one next to him.

The issue is the +P++ jerk who wants to push his Glock to the limit.

Reminds me of a joke: How do you know someone is shooting 10mm?

They will tell you.

Yeah, all the Range Elites that walk up with their just purchased Nighthawk, and wanna talk about how boss the 1911s are, and have their tacticool frankenpistols with the ported Glock 19s with beveled mag wells, (For TACTICAL RELOADS AT THE RANGE). I just giggle. I can out shoot your 1500 custom 1911 with my 375 USD factory stamped Czech model 75 from 1985. And I won't waist 150 bucks on .45 ammo.

#1 rule of any range, Safety before Pride. If you are going to practice firearms marksmanship, humble your self before walking on the range. No attitudes past the door, If you are there to show off your cool toy, do it somewhere else.

I shot expert on almost every weapon in the US army arsenal, and even a few that weren't yet. I still walk in and am straight "Yes sir/No Ma'am" to every person on the range. Even to the 22 year old behind the counter. And I'm 42.

It's just being a good range buddy.

I'm sick of working on my drills, and seeing some idiot doing mag dumps like it's fun.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
For shotshells, I have a semi-unique self-defense round I make. It is a standard formula for 00 buckshot. I use the manufacturer's recommended powder for 1 and 1/8 oz of buckshot. Normally, this means 9 pellets of 00 buckshot. but my change is I only use 6 pellets of 00 buck and swap 3 of the buckshot pellets for an equal weight of number 4 birdshot.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be very cautious in using anything other than factory loads for a self-defense purpose. In the awful event that they are employed, the local prosecutor may well decided that those aren't just a minor tweaks but Death-dealing Hell-bolts painstaking built by a bloodthirsty killer eager to give them a try.

I won't use factory reloads for anything other than target practice. I know a pretty serious outfit that went under because of QC issues. The handgun ammo I bought in 9mm and .380 ran fine, but the .223 was really unreliable, failure to fire in every 25 rounds or so.

I have a friend who liked to buy sketchy gun show ammo, always in unmarked plastic containers (we joked he bought it out of a trunk in an alley) and it was all fun and games until he touched off a very stout .38 that caused us all to flinch followed by a pop and no kick. If he'd reversed order he put them in the cylinder, he'd have wrecked his pistol.

They'll do that anyway even if you use factory ammo so I don't think there is much additional risk. My shotgun is loaded with some spicy 000 factory buck I found, the bird/buck combo is more of a experiment than something I actually use.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Reminds me of a joke: How do you know someone is shooting 10mm?

They will tell you.

So essentially the vegans of the firing range?

 Just Tony wrote:
So essentially the vegans of the firing range?

More or less.

Before my entire collection was lost in a series of freak boating accidents, I was actually in the position of not owning a "polymer 9." I had owned several, they are kind of neat, but I find them somewhat dull. I detest Glocks.

If I want to impress at the range, it's with some archaic item of wood and steel whose ammunition ceased production before I was born.

That being said, everyone has the thing they like, which is fine so long as it is safe. Indeed, I find having people who don't like the same sort of guns is great because we can try out each other's radically different items.

Thankfully +P HST and Gold Dots are common loads for Law Enforcement, are often marked as such. and are among the best ammo choices available. A lawyer might be able to twist most legit gun hobbyist activities into an unfavorable light, so getting a better lawyer than the one coming at you is probably more important than anything.

Speaking of that, +P factory ammo is not particularly unsafe and won't wreck your gun after a few shots. Upgrading your recoil spring is a good idea, but hundreds of thousands of law enforcement are carrying these in their stock Glocks, Sigs, etc. The "USA Valor" M882 and "Active Duty" M1152 9mm fmj sold by Winchester are unmarked +P and +P+ loads according to SAAMI spec. They are very much intended to be standard, general use ammunition and are widely available. The M882 has been US military issue for decades, the M1152 is new.

Regarding range rules, I've never seen a cleaning standard mentioned or enforced. Magnetic ammo is banned at the local indoor rifle ranges, which covers AP and cheap stuff with bimetal jackets. They will ask about that when you check in and have a magnet to verify. At all 3 of these places you can rent their guns but must shoot their ammo if you do, which is way overpriced remanufactured ammo at the worst of the three places. I personally don't reload or buy remans at all. Remans loaded out of spec seem like a bad idea altogether.. You hear about crazy rules at other places but around me it is all pretty reasonable.

I am thankful I have my own range and don't need to worry about a lot of these issues.

 catbarf wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be very cautious in using anything other than factory loads for a self-defense purpose.

I've seen a lot of allegations over the years that using homemade ammo, hollowpoints, modified weapons, NFA items, et cetera will give the prosecutor rope to hang you with. But I have been given explicit legal advice that that is not a realistic concern, and that I should be much, much more concerned with where and when lethal force is employed. Gary Fadden walked free. YMMV.

Oddly, a couple years back there was a legal case that got 15 minutes of fame when the prosecutor tried to claim that FMJ ammo was "military grade" and therefore more deadly.


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 CptJake wrote:
I am thankful I have my own range and don't need to worry about a lot of these issues.

My local publicly owned range gave me a mouthful for using .338 ammo at the steel targets. They looked perplexed when I said I don't own any such weapon. They mistook my custom Mosin Nagant as some kind of super-cannon.