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Hello Dakka,

This is the first TR that I've posted, and I'm disappointed it's come this far. This trade has been dragged out over 3 months, and I'm losing hope of getting my stuff back. Here's whats happened so far:

12/Mar/2013 - I PM jonny5 offering him my items (listed below)
20/Apr/2013 - I sent the items recorded to his address, after receiving part payment (Note: We negotiated for a while, and just before agreeing I checked he was okay with the condition of the items, it turned out he was unaware they were poorly painted - I notified him of this, and he said he'd be able to strip them, though I should have sent pictures in hindsight)
26/Apr/2013 - Jonny5 receives the items, and tells me he does not want them
28/Apr/2013 - We agree to have them sent back
07/May/2013 - No news, and I notify Jonny5 that I intend to set up a TR if he doesn't act soon. He immediately replies, after no communication for 9 days. I dismiss TR threat.
08/May/2013 - Jonny5 says he can post soon, or wait longer to send recorded - I opt for sooner, as I am in a rush (again, a mistake)
21/May/2013 - after long silence, Jonny5 says they are posted after a PM from me
09/Jun/2013 - I notify Jonny5 that I have not received the items - He swiftly replies and is very apologetic
11/Jun/2013 - After a few days in waiting, I conclude they are not coming and ask if we can reach a settlement. Jonny5 agrees. I ask if he has kept Proof of Postage so we can try and claim for the items, but otherwise ask to agree on a sum of money
12/Jun/2013 - Notifies me he has not kept Proof of Postage, but offers to claim through and empty parcel. Also offers me painting services, and assures me he;s not trying to scam me. I turn down these options and push further for a sum of money.

I have not heard from him since. I sent another PM asking for settlement on the 20/Jun/2013 (yesterday), and have received no reply, though he has been active and posting on the site both on the 19th and earlier today, the 21st. In hindsight I was far to friendly and lenient in this trade, and I wish I'd have pushed him harder. I was very much in a rush for this trade, as I was selling most of it for a friend, and in doing this it has put me £50 out of pocket.

He left large gaps between replies, and has by no means prioritized this trade, despite being in possession of my property that he did not want. If this is a scam, I am ready to take the steps necessary to claim my stuff or it's equivalent value (£84 was the agreed price). If it is a case of laziness, or something similar, I hope this will finally push him into resolving this. It has gone on far too long. I have sent him a PM notifying him of this Transaction Report.

Very interesting since I haven't heard back from you in 5 days about making a trade.

I haven't replied to you? Damnit, sorry! a PM is on its way.

Ive pretty much had it with this guy, to be honest ive not got any more time for this one sided report. Should any one offical want to look threw my pms i would be more than happy for them to do so.
jonny

You haven't replied to my PM's for weeks, whilst still posting on the site. What else was I supposed to do?

Jonny5, the purpose of a transaction report is for both parties to be able to come to agreement publicly, or at least to put out the facts of their disagreement publicly, due to being unable (at least until that point in time) to come to an agreement privately.

The above reply is not sufficient to address this transaction report. Please explain if there are any details incorrect in the OP, and if there is still an outstanding transaction, how it will be resolved.

Unfortunately, we do not look through PMs here. The transaction is for you and the other party to work out... the above reply does not do that.

Just to stress, this is the point I am making, no matter what our opinions are on previous events, this much is fact:

I have not received my items back

They were last in your hands, and whatever happened to them, it is your responsibility to compensate. That is all I am after.

Ive put a pm on hear asking for some models-i did indeed recive them. However the models were not only unbelivabley badly painted they were in fact badly glued and had mould lines aplenty. Far below what i would expect to purchase from anyone and indeed for the amount that was agreed.
Currently i live on a island so logistics are slightly problematical for me, in regards to both the internet and postage facilities.
After discussion i agreed to return the models as soon as i was off island, sadly i dont leave all that often. However the fatelf wanted his models returned sooner and the only way i can send this is by second or first class from the island. i did not want to do this incase the models did not get returned as i did not have a way to track them. They were returned from the island second class-sadly they have not arrived. The fat elf was informed this was not a good way to send but wanted it anyway. As he asked for them to be sent he is liable for them. To state fact i did not agree any money compensation, as a measure of good will i said i would do some free or reduced priced commision painting. currently i an not going to pay for the models and currently im slightly out of pocket due to postage costs and buying a small amount via pay pal.

Right, this is all I wanted, communication.

I understand the models were completely underneath your expectations, and we agreed to have them sent back, but they have not returned to me. As I said in my previous post, pretty much everything up until the point of them being re-sent is now irrelevant. Yes, I did opt for them to be sent sooner over recorded, as stated in my report, but me asking for them to be sent does not make me liable for them.

I appreciate you didn't mean them not to arrive, but they haven't, and that unfortunately pins you down to compensate. I didn't state that you refused, I only said you seemingly avoided it, and I expressed my disinterest in any painting service.

I really just want this resolved, I don't even want the full amount for the models at this stage.

Quite simply why should i pay you any money when im allready out of pocket. Where does it say that im liable-just because i was last to handle the models? You had an option for recorded but dismissed it. I hope that your future endevors are more fruitfull than this one, from now on im not going to buy any models unless its from reputable companys. From my perspective this is a closed matter. tho if you have anything else to add i will listen to it.

Sometimes a compromise is possible- the only package I ever had lost, we split the loss 50/50. It ended up getting returned a month later and we finally completed the deal. So... if both of you agreed, perhaps a partial settlement would satisfy both parties.

jonny5 wrote:
Quite simply why should i pay you any money when im allready out of pocket. Where does it say that im liable-just because i was last to handle the models? You had an option for recorded but dismissed it. I hope that your future endevors are more fruitfull than this one, from now on im not going to buy any models unless its from reputable companys. From my perspective this is a closed matter. tho if you have anything else to add i will listen to it.

Don't want to get in the middle of this, but just to say, you could have obtained/retained a proof of posting for ANY item posted by ANY method from ANY Post Office. That would protect you from accusations of chicanery and allow a claim to be filed for the loss of the package.

The mature thing to do here would assume at least some liability for not being overly diligent in returning the model, and, as RiTides says, try and find a compromise.

I would be willing to compromise, but you did in fact keep the 3 Killa Kans included in the parcel to cover your expenses already. So really, you haven't been put as much "out of pocket" by this as you seem to say. I don't see how you're the one who's entirely lost out on this, when in fact all that's really happened to you is you've paid around £16 (£12 you part-paid and whatever you paid for return postage) for a trio of Kans.

I don't see how you could possibly consider this "closed".

Jonny5, if you kept some items a reasonable compromise could be for you to simply send those back now, since your first parcel failed to arrive.

No. I still see no reason to make a compromise, had the fat elf been patient and waited for me to send the models from the mainland this would have not occured-similarly had the models i recived been of a fair standard i would have paid in full for them.

You sent them, they never showed up. This requires compensation. I will repeat that as many times as I have to.

The fact that I asked Second Class makes little difference, you still could have retained a receipt and/or Proof of Postage. Besides, I had to wait almost a month for you to actually send them anyway, if that's not patience I don't know what is.

Just wanted to post that, unless there are other developments, this will be marked as Unresolved regarding jonny5 when the TR list is updated (in the not too distant future hopefully as it's definitely not up to date atm).

You do not have to compromise, but given that you received items and did not pay for them or successfully return them, it is definitely "Unresolved" and will be marked as such. I would not expect someone to be willing to ship to you first in the future, given that... so it is just something to keep in mind regarding your trade rep here.

I have certainly paid more to resolve less... but again, it is your choice, just wanted to be clear about what the state of this transaction is for the record given what both parties have posted.

Thanks for the info ritides, I understand what the consiquences could be. Just to confirm ive not had a change in my decision. To be honest im not planing on doing any more trades as its been a little to much.

Well, if this is as much of a resolution as we're getting, then I guess this is it. But I really feel like I've lost out here, and I'm very disappointed by the result. I've lost a lot of models out of this.

Sounds more like a classic rip off. The "Not needing to do more trades" bit is very disingenuous in this cause since he's got the models now so what does he care?

To be fair jonny you probably won't have a choice about trading in the future since I doubt anyone will ever run the risk of trading with you after this, plus your "I don't care attitude" won't help much.

Good luck elf, I hope your stuff shows some how.

Actually Jonny5 has a point insofar that TheFatElf's insistence on another method of shipping puts the risk of that on him, rather than Jonny5. However, not only does not having proof of postage demolish that defense, I'd agree with Rotgut that even though I tend to believe Jonny5 is, in principle, honest here - I would never ever deal with someone who behaves as Jonny5 has done in this thread.
Honestly, would it hurt to be somewhat polite, or at least stay calm and reasonable throughout something like this?

It would appear that some of you belive i may be out to scam someone out of models-surely if i went to such lengths i would not be trying to defend myself?? surely i would have just moved on and scammed some others.
Also i note that im being portraided in a mostly negative light-tho this does come based on thear being no evidence against me. ive done what was asked in regard posting, ive even offerd a compromise in the form of painting, when im not at fault.
Also throughout ive been polite when it is indeed me who was being scammed with some third rate models.
This brings me to my final point-how do i know the models have not turned up at the fat elfs home and he has the models and is now trying to get more money from me. So why should i not now file a transaction report againg the fat elf?

jonny5 wrote:
-how do i know the models have not turned up at the fat elfs home and he has the models and is now trying to get more money from me.

ALWAYS get delivery confirmation.

 pretre wrote:

jonny5 wrote:
-how do i know the models have not turned up at the fat elfs home and he has the models and is now trying to get more money from me.

ALWAYS get delivery confirmation.

Basically this. If you are sending models, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure they get delivered. For international stuff this means having to use FedEx or UPS, since local postal services don't always track once they leave the country.

Every package I send in the US I check up on daily until it is delivered, and I also take pics of the item being packed, and of the postage sticker on the box showing that it was dropped off at the post office.

To be honest, i allways give and expect recorded delivery and tracking.
This way there are never any real issues.

If someone does not want to do this, then i wont be willing to trade.

Just a note, the above shipping comments are extremely valid, but I want to make sure this doesn't stray into too general a discussion now that the point has been made. So, please no additional comments on the general good trading policy of getting delivery confirmation... thanks!

Jonny5, regarding this:

jonny5 wrote:ive even offerd a compromise in the form of painting

Could you be specific about what you are offering as a compromise? Obviously, TheFatElf would likely be unwilling to trust sending additional models. So, would you be willing to paint the 3 kans that you still have from him? Or, to simply send the kans back as-is... as at least that's something?

I'll leave this open for one more reply from each of you. If no compromise is reached, as I said earlier, it will be marked as Unresolved due to the models in question never being returned (and no proof of postage being shown, so one has to assume in the absence of proof otherwise that they did not arrive).

I'd originally written a very long and frustrated reply to the previous comment, but I don't think it would aid any progress, I'd rather just try and bring things back down to Earth.

I suppose this is a lesson to us both, if anything. Whether sending or receiving, Always get conformation, and opt for it if it is available, just as posted above.

The aim of this was not to cause offence or incorrectly accuse you of anything, jonny, and I apologise if I've done either. However poor they may have been, I have lost a lot of models out of this, which understandably stressed me to no end. All I've been looking for is some form of compensation, or at least negotiations towards/against this, and an eventual resolution that suits us both.

I think if we keep in mind that we've both been caused stress by this, and as such should work to a resolution that makes both of us satisfied, rather than at a grudge.

so i would understand if you dont want to send me any models to paint, ive put too much work into the kanz to send them to you. however do you have any 40k orks, i have a few mantic ones i could send you-as long as they will be used for an army. otherwise theres not much i can do for you.

I know this is not my TR to truely comment on, but I'd like to point out somehting that may be overlooked by jonny5:

From a legal standpoint, you agreed to a deal with which it appears Elf still has copies of the PM's between the both of you while it seems you may not have all yours at your end.
Since you have admitted to keeping several items back via this forum, thats tatmount to admission you were aware of your communication and failed to resolve this amically.

While I dont know what the laws in the UK about such a thing, I do know in the US, this and other means could be brought against you in Claims Court.

The fact that you may have done additional work to the items you kept would be considered irrelivant in a court of law. You withheld items that were to be shipped back per the original owners request due to failure to compleat your deal.

Personally, I suggest you both make a new deal and at the least, send him back his mini's and he sends you back your payment.