Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I donno, Manbearpig paints that room red in short order. The average TMC would be jealous.

Federation wins, they have a larger following, and more beneficial script writers.

DO NOT ASSUME REMEMBER ASSUMING STARTS NERD WARS!

Terminus wrote:Note that I did not dispute that there are factual errors/lies/whatever you want to call them, I just asked for a few examples. I haven't followed every post of this colossal thread, so I'm not familiar with this contradiction. What are the yields of the individual weapons? I know the Nova lances' description is outrageous with something like ptons of energy. That said, since torpedoes ignore void shields, that may explain the discrepancy. If we're talking direct on the hull Nova hits, then that's totally silly. So as I said in my previous post, both settings are full of their own brand of bs, whether stemming from the fans or the source material.

So again, this battle would be decided by resources and numbers. Lets throw out all these technobabble arguments, and say that their shields and weapons are identical in strength and the Federation can zip around at warp owning face. Let's ignore the fact that Imperial ships are several times larger, and that it often takes Federation ships multiple torpedoes to take out much smaller ships. The average Galaxy-class ship carries 250 torpedoes, right? So let's say each torpedo killed one IoM ship and their phasers kill another 250. So each Federation ship could destroy 500 Imperial ships, and they'd still be outnumbered thousands to one. All it would take is a few Thunderhawks to slip by and it's game over. When it comes to planetary invasion, the Imperium is hard to top. Finally, guess what happens when thousands, if not millions of people are all dying horribly in one place?

And here I promised to bow out.

keezus; I did follow through on another thread and read through the mammoth block of research and math an individual by the name of Connor did. Though I did not fully understand some of , who am I kidding? most of, the math I would not say that it was done with any intent of deception. His descriptions and sources were all named and referenced. The underlying problem there was the source. Ie fiction. It was accepted that what was written was factually true and worked up from there.

Terminus; To throw an example of the contradictions;

Ship batteries, in a significant proportion of the books it is represented that the loading mechanism of the ship guns is manpower. But it would appear, using the proffered cruising speed of .75c during combat, that the normal BFG turn length is 1/10th of a second. (Can't complain SF Battles used to 1/30th, don't know what it is now), weapons ranges in the damocles series was only 1000s of km. In one short story from a 40K compilation, aiming, apparently was by telescope. These are the examples that stand out for me.

Ammo, food, fuel and repairs are never adequately explained or supported in BFG, SF because it was 'near future' has had this scope of items examined by the writers and addressed accordingly. They have stated ammo bays. Fuel is quantifiably listed etc.

All these are held against one side and ignored by the other.

I think it had been agreed in an earlier thread that SF had around 40,000 capital ships, IoM was kind of topped out at around 750,000ish of warp capable combat vessels. So odds were around 20:1. If Ivan is still around he may be able to confirm/deny.

Andrew

I zone out of here for just a few days when I thought it was dieing out.....I come back to this.
In all honesty, I have to express surprise that nothing has happened to Nosferatu at this point, especially if Terminus did receive a week's suspension. In all seriousness dude, it's kind of frustrating to read you beating down on others, especially considering they have never done anything to you. I kept quiet on it when I was debating you, as it would become an ad hominem fallacy on my part, but since you're focusing on xiophen, I feel like I have to say that I must ask why you put down others heavily. No one has acted the way you do in this thread, and I know that I at least did my best to avoid talking down to you.

I also have to say that in all honesty, it seems that the 690 gigaton figure is a bit inflated. More importantly, we have to remember that even though Memory Alpha is a canon wiki, it IS a wiki. I would use it the same way I use wikipedia with school projects: a general resource, that I use to learn basic facts before finding true quotes to back up my argument. You can't quote memory alpha to prove your argument, just as you can't quote wikipedia to prove an argument.

Hmmm, Andrew I think the 40,000 starship estimation is a bit over the top......I'd like to link you to a bit of analysis by Mike Wong @ stardestroyer.net. (Yes, I know I quote him a lot, but his analysis of Star Trek tech, weapons and industy seem to be one of the more detailed things available, and no one here has complained about it yet ) http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Industry/Industry1.html If anyone is interested, the link is a discussion in depth of Star Trek industrial output, and I think it might be useful in this debate. For the tl;dr people,

The Federation dedicated a significant portion of its forces (two complete fleets) to an attack on DS9 in an attempt to regain control of the wormhole during the Dominion war. This task force consisted of roughly 600 ships, including fighters. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the Federation possessed no more than a few thousand ships at the time. This is also consistent with dialogue from Way of the Warrior which established that a Klingon attack force comprised over a third of the Klingon military, and that the very first wave of the attack would consist of over a hundred ships. If we assume that there are several waves (three or four) it logically follows that the Klingon fleet is from 1000-2000 ships. The Federation fleet would logically be of similar or smaller size, because the Klingon fleet has a significant proportion of very small BOP-class warships, while the Federation fleet tends to consist of larger vessels, which were usually several hundred metres in length or more.

This is the key part of the analysis that is important here I believe.

As for canon, I do remember that GW has declared that anything with the 40k logo on it is canon, but not all that is canon is true. Otherwise, I would use the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, and say that an Imperial Guardsmen could kill everything on a planet with almost nothing.

Chris,

Oops, typo! 30K ships as an estimate. This was offered by the pro40K side, and I see no reason to object.

So odds jump to 25:1

Your Primer is important, because there are those who would use that to mean that average IG Joe can and will kill everything on a planet.

Cheers

Andrew

I object. The Imperium can't muster more than a few hundred at a time against a particular threat, especially a minor threat like the UFP. The Imperium hasn't been able to concetrate against a threat in 10,000 years. If they did the other races, ones that are much more of a threat, would stomp all over them.

Frazzled wrote:I object. The Imperium can't muster more than a few hundred at a time against a particular threat, especially a minor threat like the UFP. The Imperium hasn't been able to concetrate against a threat in 10,000 years. If they did the other races, ones that are much more of a threat, would stomp all over them.

I wasn't suggesting that all the ships would be used all at the one time, just the scale of total forces on either side.

I still think that the winner of this is the humble runabout.

Cloaked, Metaphasic shields, Weapons Pod and four transphasic torpedos = one dead IoM ship.

Andrew

Chris - I went through an d line by line refuted an argument, provided supporting evidence repeatedly despite it having been provided in the thread multiple times, showed how they were reaching unsupported conclusions etc.......and when told "woah dude your math sucks" [not an exact quote, to many pages back now] I then pointed out the big flaws with their figures. Please report my posts if you feel the need is there.

Anyways - back to topic...

Frazzled - i think the scenario cooked up had the IoM free of all other threats, where presumably they could attempt to focus fire on the UFP.

My big issue with that idea is that the administratum seems incapable of organsing anything on a smaller scale than "years" - they just dont have the ability, from the fluff (which we know is not accurate) to deal with the huge logistics of changing fleet movements in any short periods of time.

This is one area that the UFP is considerably more advanced in - better computnig, better and more reliable communication (their FTL comms bandwitdh is huge compared to the IoM. Ref being able to send personal messages compared to IoM...) abilities, and also having physically smaller ships and personnel requirements.

Noone has debated that a few ships getting through = a dead planet. However knowing how long fleets take to arrive in orbit gives plenty of scope for localised destruction of IoM fleets - only by perfectly combining a coordinated attack on every planet (and how do you know hte scale of the UFP?) can you escape this. WIth both the known vageries of warp travel, comms problems AND the *known fact* that timekeeping is not a trivial exercise (actually one area 40k has it right - keeping something as "simple" seeming as accurate time across sector distances IS tricky) [ref: likely error time codes on all time stamped messages, based on NTP hierarchy essentially where terra == direct attached atomic clock] makes this seems a highly improbable event.

Are we still assuming no one is hindered by enemies?

Yeah we are. Frazzled, I think a couple pages back we agreed that the rules were that each faction did not have to worry about its traditional enemies, and could focus fully on their opponent in this debate. This applies to both factions, so the Federation has no Romulans, Borg or Dominion to worry about. And the Imperium has no Chao raiders, Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, etc. etc. etc. to worry about.

Also, Andrew I do object to the combined ship count of 30,000 vessels. The analysis link I provided proposes a fleet size of a thousand to two thousand, and given what we've seen of full out war, I think that is a more realistic fleet size, compared to 30k.

Still wouldn't work. It would take years for the IoM to amazss its fleets. In that time the UFP is ready.

Frazzled wrote:I object. The Imperium can't muster more than a few hundred at a time against a particular threat, especially a minor threat like the UFP. The Imperium hasn't been able to concetrate against a threat in 10,000 years. If they did the other races, ones that are much more of a threat, would stomp all over them.

Thats not nec the truth the IOM amassed 10,000 ship in the sabatte worlds Crusades Featured in the Gaunts ghost series. That capaign funnily enough took place over a space simular in size to what we see the Feddies occupy.

They amassed several hundred for the battle of maccrage during the behemouth invasion.

The 3rd armegeadon battle had several hundred to thousand ammased to protect the planet.

And We know several Hundred took part in the gothic sector war.

and thousnads participated in the 13th black crusade.

Without opponenets the IOM could field thousands of ships in a short period of time if they new they had to fight the Federation the feddies would be in trouble because the Federation space is also covered by dozens if not hundreds of IOM sectors.

Each sectors going to have 50 - 75 ships per sector with anywhere from 20 - 30 capitial level ships with 30 - 40 escort class ships.

ChrisWWII wrote:Also, Andrew I do object to the combined ship count of 30,000 vessels. The analysis link I provided proposes a fleet size of a thousand to two thousand, and given what we've seen of full out war, I think that is a more realistic fleet size, compared to 30k.

Hey, I didn't make the figure up, that was the figure given when this discussion came around in Jan/Feb.

One thing I did notice was a lot of the word assume, estimate and if. Please see Asherians post at the top of the page.

Cheers

Andrew

Are we assuming the imperium is under attack by all the other 40k races? Because if not they'd crush the UFP. If so, then in all fairness the UFP should be under attack as well.

ASSUMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DIE HERETIC!
Remember no Assuming. Basically everyone gets pissed when someone Assumes.

Asherian Command wrote:ASSUMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DIE HERETIC!
Remember no Assuming. Basically everyone gets pissed when someone Assumes.

So we're not assuming? Therefore imperium wins

UFP wins, as IoM spend 40 years working out theres an issue....

UFP wins because they manage to tap into nosferatu's nerd rage and unlock an unlimited source of energy.

Win.

nosferatu1001 wrote:UFP wins, as IoM spend 40 years working out theres an issue....

More like it took them 40 years to notice because it's such a minor issue, amirite?

I can't believe that this topic is still going, can't believe nos is still trolling, and can't believe frazzled is still allowing it to continue/modding people who refute his easily defeatable claims...

based on your "years to plan" claim nos, you gladly handed victory to the Imperium. As you have stated, they would not trickle in, but plan for a very long time and strike at once. You conceded that only a few ships getting through would spell doom. Put that together, and you have an attack that takes many years to coordinate, and then punches through with numbers. The UFP would not have any idea that they were ever coming, as the warp would be used. Also, the UFP has never, EVER, had a single clue about their foes. EVERY SINGLE WAR in UFP history is fought by surprise attack. The Borg, the dominion, the klingons, ANYONE at all that has shown up the UFP has never once been prepared for them. They always get caught unaware, take heavy loses, and rally to fight back. The problem is that with the Imperium there would be nothing to rally to, when every quadrant is devoid of life.

agreed

Nightsbane wrote: The problem is that with the Imperium there would be nothing to rally to, when every quadrant is devoid of life.

Did anyone else just shed a tear of pride for our genocidal little Empire? :')

Rampant destruction, wiping out of life and planets, etc, never stopped the Imperium from rallying. The Imperium has lasted longer, and faced greater threats.

The Borg? feth that, try the Tyranids. Eaters of galaxies, swarms so large they show up on a galactic map as bigger than one of the arms of our galaxy. They quickly adapt to their enemies.

And yet, the Imperium pushed them back. Why? There's a simple reason for this. The Imperium runs on badass.

I think you misunderstood his intent. He was saying unlike every other threat the UFP ever faced (that they were never prepared for, but always managed to rally in the end FTW), the Imperium would leave nothing alive to raise the rally flag.

Ah right, my bad.

=Salutes the Immortal God-Emperor of Humanity=

May the puny Federation xenos loving heretics burn in His glory! Let us cleanse Holy Terra and Mars of their filth, and death to all who oppose us. For their pajamas shall not stand up to the might of the lasgun, or the nobility of the Leman Russ! Death to the heretics! For the Emperor! Charge!

Feds: O.O Oh my god! They have..LAND FORCES! RUN AWAY!!

NIghtsbane - before raising the "t" flag, perhaps defeating a claim would be useful. I'll wait.

In addition: the UFP *would* know they were coming - how do you think the IoM "know" about the UFP? theyd stumble across them, bluster, get beaten down and secrets stolen, and eventually somebody at the administratum would investigate further.

By which point all the secrets you so heavily rely on (like the Warp - whcih would hardly be secret if you can open a rift to it using EM based tech, of course...) have been investigated, copied and improved on.

I'd love to see the Imperium arrive to find they cant exit the warp [known tech, see BL 3rd W bearers novel), and a small bomblet (no pilot of course) collapses their geller fields while theyre in the warp. Of course thats only if you push the UFP hard enough to forget they have principles, of course...

Nos: I think you're overestimating the Federation's reverse engineering tech....You have to remember that the technology the Imperium is so far out of the Federation's frame of reference that the Federation would have extreme difficulty in reverse engineering Imperial technology, even if they managed to capture an completely intact Imperial vessel, and/or its blueprints. Assuming of course, the Imperials don't blow up their ship the instant it seems like they're going to be overpowered by the xenos loving heretics.

It'd be the equivalent of giving Horatio Nelson, or Leonardo da Vinci the complete plans, and maybe even a badly damaged copy of an Arleigh Burke class destroyer. Just because they have it, and even have the instructions for building one they simply can't. The reason being that both da Vinci and the Federation lack the technological and infrastructure base to build a copy of whatever it is they've captured. Even studying it is going to be hard for the Federation, simply do to the difference between Federation and Imperium.

Btw.....

Terminus wrote: UFP wins because they manage to tap into nosferatu's nerd rage and unlock an unlimited source of energy.

Seconded for being a win. And yes, Melissa....you are quite right. Very,very right.

Edit: Additionally Nosferatu, I do believe that by quoting a BL work as official 40k canon you are retracting your earlier claim that BL can not speak for 40k canon?