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I like to think GW's R&D department is a bit like Q's lab in James Bond.

Except, to follow the James Bond analogy, they'd be the ones in the hollowed out volcano

Soulhunter wrote:
All GW those guys are saying is MORE EXPENSIVE (expect forgeworld prices ( They are using words like quality, unique, one of a kind, never seen before to soften the blow* )
( *must be one of those management classes which use words like empowered, transition, restructure, market driven etc. )

SYNERGY...... TOMORROW........ AMERICA......

RiTides wrote:The blood knight does look crisper to me than the painted (metal) version... is it possible they're trying to do comparison shots and just really, really not explaining it well?

I think that could be it...

Edit: Ah, no. Just checked the website and they have the painted pics labelled as Finecast. Erhm, yeah...

Several layers of primer, paint and varnish will tend to soften the detail on anything.

The detail you can see on a large blow-up macro photo of a 28mm model is lots more than you will notice on the game table.

KingCracker wrote:You can tell the Eldar one is different minis as well. No Im not talking about the arms being in a different position. I figured, maybe the arm broke off or you can see in the unpainted one, theres a gap between the arm and body, so I figure if they were the same someone just fixed it.

BUT the telling sign here is, look at the feathers on its helm. On the right side of the head on unpainted, you see how SHARP the feathers are on the end at the bottom of the feather patch. Now look at the mini on the right....the feathers on the bottom are almost gloppy looping and smoothed on the edge

And the shuriken pistols are different as well.

You do all realise that resin models have been around for ages yes?

Non-toxic resin polymer is used in alot of historical wargaming vehicles and model kits.

Its not new.

Old Crow have been using the plastic poylmer resin for a while.

It does cast well, very crisp. Still as fragile as all resin types though.

Interesting news. I for one won't mind the move to resin, I buy plenty of FW stuff so I like the idea of more detailed models as standard.

One question has not been answered though (or I've missed it); does this recall of metal models (and subsequent replacement with resin) extend to all boxed sets and models? I'm thinking of the Vostroyans in particular as I want some of them and will buy them now if they're going to be harder to get in the near future.

Also, I'm not terribly surprised that prices are going to go up, it would be good PR to have a flat year price wise but unpopular with the people who matter. That's the shareholders by the way, not customers. GW couldn't give a crap with you the individual do, you could boycott them, smash all your models and cut the eyes out of your Jervis posters for all they care. All they need to know is that the customer base is fairly steady, ie as many people start the hobby as leave it (for whatever reason). I find it a little hard to believe that a company that's been around for 20+ years would be so cavalier with their customer base.

The idea that the company is run for you is also somewhat laughable, just like a football club is NOT run for it's supporters, GW is not run for hobbyists. There are those who work within it that are keen hobbyists (at least I hope they are or they won't be enjoying all that weak lemon drink) but the whole shebang is run for profit.

I hope this means an end to metal models...

Sanjay

1.) The advantages of crisper resin will only come out with new moulds made for the new material. We will see.
2.) The flexibility can be a problem, if it is more flexible than the layer of paint. Paint might easily chip off. Haven't tested it yet on a real finecast model, we will see.
3.) FW resin can also be bend back with warm water, but it has a memory effect and slowly goes back to the original position. We will see.
4.) GW said that the new material passed official security tests and passed as needing no special care (e.g. no dust mask recommended).

GW Facebook entry wrote:"Also, chaps, we've spotted the odd comment about the safety of the resin. As with all our products, this has been vigorously checked. There are currently many formulations of resin used across the world. The resin material we are using for Citadel Finecast models has undergone testing by a leading international toy safety testing agency. They identified no risks to health and recommend no special precautions."

Da Boss wrote:Thank you, sounds good. Wonder how they managed that- and how much R&D money went into developing the new material?

Probably not much... its common that resins allow you to add fillers. GW is just using plastic for its filler.

Big P wrote:You do all realise that resin models have been around for ages yes?

Non-toxic resin polymer is used in alot of historical wargaming vehicles and model kits.

Its not new.

Old Crow have been using the plastic poylmer resin for a while.

It does cast well, very crisp. Still as fragile as all resin types though.

and its not expensive, though I bet the prices for these will still be 2-3x more than the metal versions since its GW prices and to them resin is worth more than gold.

Kroothawk wrote:1.) The advantages of crisper resin will only come out with new moulds made for the new material. We will see.
2.) The flexibility can be a problem, if it is more flexible than the layer of paint. Paint might easily chip off. Haven't tested it yet on a real finecast model, we will see.
3.) FW resin can also be bend back with warm water, but it has a memory effect and slowly goes back to the original position. We will see.
4.) GW said that the new material passed official security tests and passed as needing no special care (e.g. no dust mask recommended).

People can say what they like (or hate) about GW, there is no way that GW would use a toxic material in products for sale to 12-year-olds. I fully believe GW's claim that they had their material tested by an independent examiner.

Kilkrazy wrote:People can say what they like (or hate) about GW, there is no way that GW would use a toxic material in products for sale to 12-year-olds.

... other than paints from China

Stella Cadente wrote:and its not expensive, though I bet the prices for these will still be 2-3x more than the metal versions since its GW prices and to them resin is worth more than gold.

I think these types of generalized statements ignore alot of the reality of their business. GW only end up with a 9.5% profit on its miniature games after they mark it up 400% from their cost of sales, the resoursces going into producing their products. Given that tin rose 60% from a year ago, even if we didn't want to kind to GW you're looking at a $.50 piece of white metal now costing GW $.80 and having to sell what was $2 for $3.20.

This change of materials, seem to me, was intended to keep GW's price increase from exceeding 20%. The increasing price of tin, meant either a 23%+ increase or a change of materials to keep it at only a ~15% increase, with improved properties. Given only those two choices, it seems obvious which is the lesser of two evils.

Yeah, the whole 'Price rise is evulz!!' knee-jerk reaction is a bit tiresome.

If the preliminary snaps of the new casts are anything to go by the product is getting better. Shock horror, the price is going to go up! It's price rise time anyway isn't it? As stated by Mythos you have to factor in so many other things that aren't obvious to the layman.

But if too many "laymen" get pissed by the price hike, sales will drop again. As with every price hike in recent years. Total revenue is flat or declining for years.

Please forgive me if this has already been said, but do GW models even *have* the kind of fine detail that would benefit from this transition to resin?

Browsing over the different ranges, I'm not seeing to many models that aren't already so chunky and "heroic" that metal wouldn't be perfectly adequate. I do realize that it's a design decision in the sculpting, that there are other reasons for the metal to resin transition, and future sculpts may take advantage of the material (though I doubt this, the sculpting style is part of GW's 'thing'). Anyway, there's my reason for thinking that the whole "better detail/sharpness" thing is just empty hype.

I mean, just look at, say, an Infinity Haqq Hafza and tell me these finecast things have even half the detail.

Resin doesn't provide finer detail.

Since my Toxicity thread got locked:

Thanks to those who responded with the info I was looking for, but to the people who were kinda jerks about it: I DID go through this thread, GW's website, and numerous other sources. But finding info on the potential harmful effects was nigh impossible in the avalanche of negative comments and griping about GW (which i generally agree with). So don't be snarky at me just because 0.01% of the info on Finecast posted scattered across numerous threads and on GW's site was about its potential toxicity, and I have too much of a life in the real world to be able to devote the massive amount of time it would have taken to find that needle in the clusterfuzz of this internet haystack.

-C6

Kilkrazy wrote:Resin doesn't provide finer detail.

Huh? I think that's about the only point on which GW is potentially correct. Resin can take detail better than metal or plastic. The former is more viscous, even with spin-casting, than some resins and shrinks slightly as it cools. The latter cannot have any undercuts in the mold and, from what I've seen, still can't quite take as good of detail as resin.

Resin most certainly has the potential for providing more detail than metal or plastic.

Valete,

JohnS

Kroothawk wrote:But if too many "laymen" get pissed by the price hike, sales will drop again. As with every price hike in recent years. Total revenue is flat or declining for years.

I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of the process but I'd imagine a flat margin/profit would be pretty attractive in the current climate, I certainly wish I had one.

cygnnus wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Resin doesn't provide finer detail.

Huh? I think that's about the only point on which GW is potentially correct. Resin can take detail better than metal or plastic. The former is more viscous, even with spin-casting, than some resins and shrinks slightly as it cools. The latter cannot have any undercuts in the mold and, from what I've seen, still can't quite take as good of detail as resin.

Resin most certainly has the potential for providing more detail than metal or plastic.

Valete,

JohnS

I have enough models in metal and resin to know that whatever the theoretical limit of the processes, it makes absolutely no practical difference for a 28mm wargame figure.

GW are handing people a line to offset the higher prices.

Doesn't it matter if you plan a model in resin though?

Ie. Forgeworld Bloodthirster, Forgeworld Great Unclean One, Maelstrom's Chimeara, etc?

Sanjay

Cerebrium wrote:I remember seeing on their facebook last night that it's totally non-toxic and requires no special preparation.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

Coaldust is 100 percent carbon, non toxic, Asbestos is a mineral which is non toxic.
Still people are dying from it

I think GW would not be stupid enough to expose themselves to the type of litigation that would ensue if it was found that their resin dust was unsafe and they had proclaimed it was.

StarFyre wrote:Doesn't it matter if you plan a model in resin though?

Ie. Forgeworld Bloodthirster, Forgeworld Great Unclean One, Maelstrom's Chimeara, etc?

Sanjay

Studio McVey models are planned in resin.

Sorry, not familiar with Studio McVey...the only resin models I have are forgeworld large monsters, Maelstrom Chimera, painted kingdom death for a commission, and i have some other large resin collector models (ie. that 2 ft tall dragon by Mag Egos). Oh, also have Kraken collector models, JMD, and scibor which are resin.

Maybe use them as an example? From what I've seen there, the models are more finely detailed than any metal or plastic models I've seen, unless that's due the sculptors being better (granted, those models I have are my top 4 sculptors so maybe that is why )

Sanjay

http://www.studiomcvey.com/
Look at the limited edition resin section. Most of them are 28mm.

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/facciones/
The Infinity models are metal 28mm.

I have noticed on the GW pics that the resin is on spruce. and yes FW bloodthirster is way better looking then the GW metal one. I aslo heard because GW now has the right to use resin that they will be releasing the titans. FW maybe going out of buiseness.

Slayer le boucher wrote:Got a mail from GW with a sneak peek of Finecast models,featuring a model of each games







Gotta admit,that they look pretty good to me.

Even if the first pic that we had from the Skaven lord wasn't great(it was a grainy pic after all).

True, the LOTR modles DO look better.

baron deathnyx wrote:I have noticed on the GW pics that the resin is on spruce.

Sprues. Spruce is a tree.

baron deathnyx wrote:I aslo heard because GW now has the right to use resin that they will be releasing the titans. FW maybe going out of buiseness.

"Has the right to use?" This was never an issue of a legal right to use or not use resin.

FW is a seperate entity. GW going to resin changes nothing for Forge World.

I've heard rumors before about GW working on a plastic/Resin titan. That doesn't have anything to do with what's going on now, though.