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 cincydooley wrote:
You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.

I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.

I agree with most of this, but when I ran a Malifaux league a few years ago there were a few players that were using pdf copies of the 1st and 2nd rulebooks.

 Alpharius wrote:
I can't believe how much this campaign is struggling right now.

Maybe it is just the pre-holiday budget tightening for many?

I dunno.... it's going to CONTINUE to have problems competing with KSes that, side-by-side, are simply much better deals.

And I don't know if that's going to change post holiday, what with Rick Priestly's game being on KS shortly followed CMONs by Wrath of Kings and Rivet Wars.

As Wyrd has made pretty clear, they're happy with the funding they have so far. As such, there's no real onus for them to try and strive for better. Their attitude seems to be, "Why be great when mediocre is good enough for the 1200 folks that have already pledged?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.

I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.

I agree with most of this, but when I ran a Malifaux league a few years ago there were a few players that were using pdf copies of the 1st and 2nd rulebooks.

I think that's a bit different because those aren't even "available" in eBook format. I was speaking more specifically about when 'legal' PDF copies exist and someone then uploads them.

I'm of the thought that any time I buy a physical rulebook, I'd be willing to pay a modest premium for access to the eBook/PDF as well. I wish all companies did this. Sadly very few do.

 Alpharius wrote:
I can't believe how much this campaign is struggling right now.

Maybe it is just the pre-holiday budget tightening for many?

Most likely the case, the drive has some solid pieces to drive up sales, the stellar amount you get with the multi-pose minis, added stretch goal at 200k, the openness and transparency of Mack Martin via the Breach Side Chats, the quick responses from Jac during the day (though the daily updates could include more).

But it's less than a week till Christmas, people are putting their pennies towards real things for kids and family.

The 3 miniatures from each sprue should help drive the pledge total up, as would opening that up to allow additional purchases of said sprue!

 Alpharius wrote:
The 3 miniatures from each sprue should help drive the pledge total up, as would opening that up to allow additional purchases of said sprue!

I would agree with the additional purchase comment, but even if this were a Malifaux campaign, the most of any modest pointed model in Malifaux is 3 on the field. The average number is 2, unless you're running something small like a Gremlin gunline, 6 canine remains for the ressers (or necropunks, etc...). So if these were being release for Malifaux, you'd really only need 1 sprue for the game. And with an RPG party, you're going to have 6 at most, so maybe a second sprue. Change the random gender to one of choice instead, might solve that issue.

Though if they had monster sprues, like say 1 gremlin, 1 zombies, 1 neverborn, one "convict gunslingers" I'd buy multiples

or hell, sell me 3 more legs for 10 bucks so I can use all the torsos on my sprue I'd buy them

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The 3 miniatures from each sprue should help drive the pledge total up, as would opening that up to allow additional purchases of said sprue!

I would agree with the additional purchase comment, but even if this were a Malifaux campaign, the most of any modest pointed model in Malifaux is 3. The average number is 2, unless you're running something small like a Gremlin gunline, 6 canine remains for the ressers (or necropunks, etc...). So if these were being release for Malifaux, you'd really only need 1 sprue for the game. And with an RPG party, you're going to have 6 at most, so maybe a second sprue. Change the random gender to one of choice instead, might solve that issue.

or hell, sell me 3 more legs for 10 bucks so I can use all the torsos on my sprue I'd buy them

I'd definatly be interested in plastic GRemlins, my So'mer Teeth lists requires alot of them...

I feel your pain, I just picked up Ressers, and I need more canines (only have 2 atm)

 Alfndrate wrote:
I feel your pain, I just picked up Ressers, and I need more canines (only have 2 atm)

I've have up to 12 Bayou Gremlins on the board at any one time plus Piglets...

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I feel your pain, I just picked up Ressers, and I need more canines (only have 2 atm)

I've have up to 12 Bayou Gremlins on the board at any one time plus Piglets...

Do you start with 6 and work your way up, or are you running Som'er, at like 10 gremlins? (i can't remember their point cost).

 Alfndrate wrote:

Most likely the case, the drive has some solid pieces to drive up sales, the stellar amount you get with the multi-pose minis, added stretch goal at 200k, the openness and transparency of Mack Martin via the Breach Side Chats, the quick responses from Jac during the day (though the daily updates could include more).

My fear is that at a lot of people are looking at this comparatively as opposed to looking at TTB in a vaccuum, and when you do that, these statements no longer look to be true.

Comparatively, it isn't really a stellar amount that you get with the multi-pose minis (although I like them, and quite like Wyrd's plastics aside from some fiddly contact points)
Comparatively, the openness of Mack is directly contrary to (seemingly) the rest of Wyrd and at the very best on par with other KSes.
Comparatively, the single, very vague daily responses are severly lacking compared to other KSes where the developers/designers are firmly entrenched.

This KS has gotten "better" but then again, I'm afraid there are probably a lot of people looking at it alongside Kingdom Death, or Relic Knights, or the Freebooter's Fate IndieGoGo, or hell, even Guild of Cadwallon (which shockingly may break $100k WHAT?!?!). When put side by side....man....it sadly looks like some cat food next to a fat NY strip.

I know :-\

And my comment about Jac's reponses are mostly that I email her, ask a question, and it get's answered within 10 minutes or so... Granted, my last email went in while they hadn't arrived at work yet, so we'll see...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I feel your pain, I just picked up Ressers, and I need more canines (only have 2 atm)

I've have up to 12 Bayou Gremlins on the board at any one time plus Piglets...

Do you start with 6 and work your way up, or are you running Som'er, at like 10 gremlins? (i can't remember their point cost).

I haven't played him in awhile but when I was running him I acutally started with 2 Warpigs, 2 Hogwhisperers, 2 Giant Gnats and 1 Bayou Gremlin. Then throught the game I would make more and more GRemlins, first turning them into Giant Gnats, then more Gremlins and Piglets if i get the chance.

 cincydooley wrote:
You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.

I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.

Writers get a royalty in this industry?!

(RPG industry standard is a flat rate, same with artists and sculptors.)

 redstripe wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.

I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.

Writers get a royalty in this industry?!

(RPG industry standard is a flat rate, same with artists and sculptors.)

Or in my case, a whip across the back, and maybe some freshwater

Edit: As per a PM I got, I'm not a writer for Wyrd. I'm just a henchman for them. I am a writer for On the Lamb Games, thus my avatar and the image in my sig.

 redstripe wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.

I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.

Writers get a royalty in this industry?!

(RPG industry standard is a flat rate, same with artists and sculptors.)

Sorry, I should have specified. I meant books in general.

 Alpharius wrote:
I can't believe how much this campaign is struggling right now.

Maybe it is just the pre-holiday budget tightening for many?

Not really, its how its being run. They've stubbornly dug in their heels in regards to adding options, such as a hardback upgrade or mini add ons. The lack of add ons basically limits pledges to $60, $125 or $225. And thats it. Their average pledge per backer is $149, vs Kingdom Death's ever increasing average pledge amount of $257. Every other stretch goal with KD is something to upgrade your initial pledge. The only real way Wyrd can add money at this point is by adding backers. Wyrd's serious fan base who was going to pledge already has at this point. Late backers are attracted to mega value (which Wyrd isnt trying to offer). The early backer only rewards work to discourage last minute fence sitters by lowering the perceived value. They are trying the intimidation stick (back early or else lose out compared to everyone else), rather than the reward carrot with latecomers, and its not working very well.

They've got their money, but don't seem too interested in chasing much more at this point. Part of the reason people pledge is the feeling that they are putting something into production that needs their help, and wouldn't be made otherwise. They said they have enough to do several books afterwards, so the line is secure, so the campaign loses out that feeling of needed patronage as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The 3 miniatures from each sprue should help drive the pledge total up, as would opening that up to allow additional purchases of said sprue!

I would agree with the additional purchase comment, but even if this were a Malifaux campaign, the most of any modest pointed model in Malifaux is 3 on the field. The average number is 2, unless you're running something small like a Gremlin gunline, 6 canine remains for the ressers (or necropunks, etc...). So if these were being release for Malifaux, you'd really only need 1 sprue for the game. And with an RPG party, you're going to have 6 at most, so maybe a second sprue.

Well, the party would fight other NPC's, so you need models for those too. I think you're underestimating people's mini addiction. The sprue's look really awesome. Depending on the price point I'm down for 4 more or so post release.

Alright, I'll grant you that Boss, Like I said, give me monster sprues, and I'd be all over that, at least 1 of each. As for NPCs, I've got enough humanoid minis though it shouldn't be too much of an issue (for me at least).

Got an email back from Jac, it's pretty vague I need to go back through the KS updates about penny dreadfuls and the stretch goal and see the wording used.

Edit: My response from Jac said they have never officially stated pdf copies of the books. I just double checked the stretch goals and the update about the Penny Dreadfuls. They both say digital copy... We might see it come out for other versions, or we might see pdf. Though personally I'd prefer kindle since my laptop already has the kindle program and I have my Kindle fire...

 Alfndrate wrote:
Alright, I'll grant you that Boss, Like I said, give me monster sprues, and I'd be all over that, at least 1 of each. As for NPCs, I've got enough humanoid minis though it shouldn't be too much of an issue (for me at least).

Got an email back from Jac, it's pretty vague I need to go back through the KS updates about penny dreadfuls and the stretch goal and see the wording used.

From what I got out of the different Breach Side chats the game doesn't nessacarily involve mesurement or minatures and is fine being played like D&D 3.5 with a very loose combat and range system. Still though I do really like minatures and I have backed several kickstarters specifically because of the minatures they offered and not the base game.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Alright, I'll grant you that Boss, Like I said, give me monster sprues, and I'd be all over that, at least 1 of each. As for NPCs, I've got enough humanoid minis though it shouldn't be too much of an issue (for me at least).

Got an email back from Jac, it's pretty vague I need to go back through the KS updates about penny dreadfuls and the stretch goal and see the wording used.

Edit: My response from Jac said they have never officially stated pdf copies of the books. I just double checked the stretch goals and the update about the Penny Dreadfuls. They both say digital copy... We might see it come out for other versions, or we might see pdf. Though personally I'd prefer kindle since my laptop already has the kindle program and I have my Kindle fire...

Ugh, why be cryptic about it.

And honestly, if you're publishing the book, there's no excuse to NOT have it in PDF. InDesign, Quark, or whatever they're using to design it will have a publish to PDF option. It's no harder than saving the file.

And FYI.... If a file is in ePub, Kindle, etc format, there are multiple online programs that will convert for you. It's quite easy

They're doing it in InDesign. Someone asked a question about magic types, and Mack made a comment about telling us exactly if he had InDesign up.

 Alfndrate wrote:
They're doing it in InDesign. Someone asked a question about magic types, and Mack made a comment about telling us exactly if he had InDesign up.

Yeah...So should be no problem to publish straight to searchable, indexed PDF. Pretty easy to do, honestly. All the other layout stuff is the hard part

Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.

Met a Henchman at GenCon that bought the bag and removed the IK patch lol. Perfect for demos too

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.

Met a Henchman at GenCon that bought the bag and removed the IK patch lol. Perfect for demos too

I could do that... But the stiched PP logo on the back would bother me.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.

Met a Henchman at GenCon that bought the bag and removed the IK patch lol. Perfect for demos too

I could do that... But the stiched PP logo on the back would bother me.

It would be something to look into.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
They're doing it in InDesign. Someone asked a question about magic types, and Mack made a comment about telling us exactly if he had InDesign up.

Yeah...So should be no problem to publish straight to searchable, indexed PDF. Pretty easy to do, honestly. All the other layout stuff is the hard part

Seriously. If I can do it they should be able to.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
They're doing it in InDesign. Someone asked a question about magic types, and Mack made a comment about telling us exactly if he had InDesign up.

Yeah...So should be no problem to publish straight to searchable, indexed PDF. Pretty easy to do, honestly. All the other layout stuff is the hard part

Seriously. If I can do it they should be able to.

All high and mighty aren't you Cy

Don't get the whip

In all honesty. We know it's going to be at least a pdf, whether or not is something more remains to be seen.

Cy, do you know if Wargames Vault's pdfs are "secured"?

Well, I'm going off the fact I thought myself InDesign for Brushfire (we did Legendary Realms in Word).

From WargameVault's Backend:

File Security
Placing restrictions on your product may deter customers from sharing it, but it also makes the product less useful to those who paid for it.
Add watermark? Select this option if your product file is in PDF format, and you wish for this product to be watermarked. What is watermarking? Click here for a sample of a watermarked file.
Disallow copy/paste? If you check this, customers will not be able to copy and paste text from this ebook. Note that this does not prevent customers from copying the file.
Disallow printing? If you check this, customers will not be able to print pages from this ebook.

We just use the Watermark, as that generally prevents it from showing up on 4Chan.

You did LR in word? Yikes. That must have been a huge pita.

 cincydooley wrote:
You did LR in word? Yikes. That must have been a huge pita.

yeah, it was our first released book and I had no idea wtf we were doing.

I stared at Publisher for a week at some point during it, and again when we started on Brushfire before giving InDesign a shot and loving it.

I've still got a old Badger-At-Claw stat card I did in publisher somewhere in my office.