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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




" I do a ton of damage to the manticores"

Not if you can't see them.

Fire Raptors aren't that dangerous to an army where everything is SO cheap. They should ignore it and swamp objectives.

AGainst most IG lists in my experience, you can't charge with the fire raptor, because there is no legal place to put said fire raptor within 12" of the artillery/tanks. It doesn't sound like your opponent is leveraging the 4 ppm absurdity correctly. Remember you have to move before you waste your time shooting guardsmen. I can count the number of times on one hand where my IG opponent has let me "jump over" anything. Too many models. Too much board coverage.

They only need to clip your repulsors with a couple lascannons to free up a LOT of artillery to nuke your 2W models off the table. IG are so cheap they CAN have it all. There's a reason I snicker everytime I see Repulsors. TOUGH AS A LEMAN RUSS! FOR TWICE THE POINTS! GLORIOUS!

For their price point, and inability to project long-range fire, repulsors need 2+ armor.

IG tanks do suffer a lot from degredation, but there's always 100 more where that came from. Meanwhile, you have 2 tanks.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/04/13 15:50:31


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Martel732 wrote:
They are playing as fast as they can. But understand this:

Mortar team 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses


Just to chime in here, the catachan doctrine does not effect infantry based multi shot weapons, only tanks. Im not disagreeing howerver, the amount of re rolls (not just guard, all forces) is a bit excessive.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Wow. I know two guys playing that wrong, then. I gave up on checking IG because every ugly claim is always true in that codex of horrors.

Yes, characters are really 30 pts.
Yes, their T8 tanks are cheaper than my T7 tanks.
Yes, their wyvern is cheaper than my whirlwind.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

I'm pretty sure I've seen people rerolling for mortars too. I guess they should be S4 in combat instead. Oh well.

As for hiding manticores, sometimes that will be possibe, but not always and not for all of them. And it's near-impossible to hide from a fire raptor.

Ultimately, being shot at by guard is really nasty - but they aren't great at winning tournaments. They give up too many KPs and are awful at going to take objectives. As a result they aren't all that common on the tournament scene. It's a tricky one because you need to be able to take them on, but you shouldn't really build an army around doing it.

Honestly my approach vs guard is to zerg as much as possible, put intercessors in cover on objectives (which I'll place in cover, obvs), take cheap KPs where I can and hope the clock runs out if it looks like I'm getting tabled. I never slow play, but the simple fact is it's hard to finish games to a time limit with that much dice rolling and rerolling.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Who is still using kps that aren't PL based?
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Martel732 wrote:
Who is still using kps that aren't PL based?

I’m not aware of any tournaments - in the UK at least - using PL KPs. Standard ITC, ETC and GW tournaments seem to use standard kill points.

PL could be used more. It would be interesting if in deployment you had to set up equal or over what the other guy had put down. And using it for KPs does make sense.

Out of interest, who does use PL KPs?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




ITC combined arms mission: no mercy.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

A Fireraptor can easily one shot a Manticore.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.

It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).

As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.

Thoughts?
   
Made in hk
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




Colgado wrote:
Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.

It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).

As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.

Thoughts?


In that approach, use Blood Angel, your Primaris Gravis Captain is wounding even Magnus / Mortarion on 2s on the charge with his 5 attacks (6 attacks if you use the stratagem to make him fall into black rage), while your 60 Intercessors will wound the Daemon Primarch on 4s with their a total 120 attacks in theory, LoL.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine





Neophyte2012 wrote:
Colgado wrote:
Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.

It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).

As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.

Thoughts?


In that approach, use Blood Angel, your Primaris Gravis Captain is wounding even Magnus / Mortarion on 2s on the charge with his 5 attacks (6 attacks if you use the stratagem to make him fall into black rage), while your 60 Intercessors will wound the Daemon Primarch on 4s with their a total 120 attacks in theory, LoL.


I think Blood Angels Primaris Grav Caps are solid, but Primaris can't use the Death Visions of Sanguinius stratagem to get Black Rage.

Unless it was FAQ'd... I haven't paid as much attention to the BA stuff.

Praying to get a game of 9th edition in before Summer. 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




 Kelligula wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Colgado wrote:
Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.

It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).

As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.

Thoughts?


In that approach, use Blood Angel, your Primaris Gravis Captain is wounding even Magnus / Mortarion on 2s on the charge with his 5 attacks (6 attacks if you use the stratagem to make him fall into black rage), while your 60 Intercessors will wound the Daemon Primarch on 4s with their a total 120 attacks in theory, LoL.


I think Blood Angels Primaris Grav Caps are solid, but Primaris can't use the Death Visions of Sanguinius stratagem to get Black Rage.

Unless it was FAQ'd... I haven't paid as much attention to the BA stuff.


Oh..

Yeah, you are right, Looks like Primaris got their gene-seed fixed......
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I've had some minor luck running Ultramarines as a Primaris horde.

Gravis Captain
Lt.
3-10 man intercessor squads
3-10 man Helblasters
FW Rapier and crew
Stormtalon with twin assault cannon and missile launcher

Hellblasters , captain, and Lt. castle up in area terrain, Intercessors provide cover and bubblewrap.
rapier pops mid-grade vehicles or monsters
Stormtalon takes out other fliers, smallish chaff units, or outliers.
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

So with the HB/ML Dev buffs, I've broken, and modded Intercessors for a 5-man squad. 127pts for 3 HB, a SB & a ML, -1 to hit from RG, hugging cover all game, and giving me a way to translate CPs into mortal wounds is just too good a deal.

How about you? Have you cracked and used primaris bodies to mod out non-primaris units for your supposed Primaris army? If so, what units did you view as too good to pass up?

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 16:12:34


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User





Took my primaris imperial fists to a tournament out of town last weekend and scored another best general, won best overall too on account of there being only 3 fully painted armies.
At 1850 i ran
Primaris capt w powersword
Lt
Rhino primaris
3x5 intercessors
6 inceptors
Gatling redeptor
Ancient with relic banner
5 reivers
3 bolter agressors
10 hellblasters
5 hellblasters

First game was relic against deathguard wiped morty and all thr poxwalkers and plaguemarines by turn 2, lost my relic carrying captain to typhus but still controlled it. Second game vs admech was a supply depoy with 6 objectives. Rolling at the start of the turn for a 6 to remove all the other objectives. A 6 never came up so it was a minor victory. 3rd game vs dark angels and the dude ran a unit of 10 bikers and a flyer right at my hellblasters so that was game. Not the most competitive meta but i got my name on a chainsword.
[Thumb - 31421557_1645184822183894_7469288297743777792_n.jpg]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/28 04:27:45


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

Nice job - congrats.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Ship's Officer



London

Congrats indeed. A win is a win
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

But ... Now _I_ want my name on a chainsword!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.

 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.


Awesome!

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.


No, because they are still raped by 2 damage weapons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.


No, because they are still raped by 2 damage weapons.


18 points for their durability and output is pretty good. Not every single weapon fired is 2 damage. I think you also have to factor in that because they would be actually a threat your opponent would want to devote firepower into taking them out which saves your other units like hellblasters aggressors or tanks a few wounds. Or if they ignore the intercessors they will be able to put some wounds on their targets.

 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

2 DMG weapons don't make tactical Marines better - same old tired reply.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




" Not every single weapon fired is 2 damage"

You say that, but disintegrators are now only 15 pts and have easy access to ignore cover. Talos punch for 2. It adds up really fast, even though primaris are boss vs splinter.

Gravis armor needs to give a wound to even things out. That would help a LOT.

Primaris are getting hurt by other meta changes, too. The last game I had against primaris went even more poorly than usual for them because I"m shifting to a stalker/autocannon approach because of all the cheap invulns on Xeno stuff and crap like quantum shielding. This meta shift is disastrous for primaris. The Stalker killed 1.7 X its own points in inceptors easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Primark G wrote:
2 DMG weapons don't make tactical Marines better - same old tired reply.


Actually it does. Because math. Your opponent is losing a damage.

I'll quit giving this reply when it stops being true.

"Or if they ignore the intercessors they will be able to put some wounds on their targets. "

Too slowly. The firepower of a 90 whatever intercessor unit is quite comical. Wounding the raiders on 5's. Yeah... they don't matter.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/30 20:22:13


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
" Not every single weapon fired is 2 damage"

You say that, but disintegrators are now only 15 pts and have easy access to ignore cover. Talos punch for 2. It adds up really fast, even though primaris are boss vs splinter.

Gravis armor needs to give a wound to even things out. That would help a LOT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Primark G wrote:
2 DMG weapons don't make tactical Marines better - same old tired reply.


Actually it does. Because math. Your opponent is losing a damage.

I'll quit giving this reply when it stops being true.

"Or if they ignore the intercessors they will be able to put some wounds on their targets. "

Too slowly. The firepower of a 90 whatever intercessor unit is quite comical. Wounding the raiders on 5's. Yeah... they don't matter.


I absolutely agree Dissy cannons are tailor made to kill primaris. That specific gun in that specific army is amazing for killing primaris. I wouldn't even play my primaris force against dark eldar because of that gun. Thankfully, there are a lot of other armies that don't have access to that gun.

Intercessors with SIA would actually be rather killy against non-vehicle targets. They can double tap out to 18 inches at s4 ap-2 or wound on 2s against all none-vehicles and still have ap -1. Dark eldar seem to be a HARD counter to Primaris so I don't think its fair to compare everything Primairs against their hard counter. Not every army is dark eldar, not every army soups them in and not every army is tailor made to do 2 damage on all their guns.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Dude my army with a single stalker hard countered them like the little bitches they are. Oh, I had a pred autocannon too. And some missile launchers. After I killed the hell blasters, it was a giant sanguinary guard party. Reivers and intercessors have basically no way of stopping SG. Which are trivially murdered by the Drukhari.

" I wouldn't even play my primaris force against dark eldar because of that gun"

And that is when you a concept is a complete fail.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/30 20:26:37


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

Dissy is super killing against a lot of things. If you said you arent going to play a unit coz there is a weapon that hurts them that is pretty silly plus no one competitive is running them since dark lance is overall much better. Martel used to complain about IG HWT with autocannons one shotting Primaris.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 20:58:34


Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:Dude my army with a single stalker hard countered them like the little bitches they are. Oh, I had a pred autocannon too. And some missile launchers. After I killed the hell blasters, it was a giant sanguinary guard party. Reivers and intercessors have basically no way of stopping SG. Which are trivially murdered by the Drukhari.

" I wouldn't even play my primaris force against dark eldar because of that gun"

And that is when you a concept is a complete fail.


The concept of Primaris marines is great if you ask me. Finally we are seeing bigger and better marines that more accurately reflect the strength of a marine. Imagine if this was 7th and they still had 2 wounds. That would be a really big deal. The current rule set is punishing for them, but it is by no means a failed concept. Also note they are not yet a fully realized range of models and are baked into established codices. They were not designed to be ran as a pure army as of yet. They are only going to get more options and hopefully before long we will see an affordable transport for them as opposed to their garbage repulsor tank. They do have a significant weakness to certain army lists and weapons that is absolutely true, but if they do get SIA they will be in a much better spot than they are now.


Primark G wrote:Dissy is super killing against a lot of things. If you said you arent going to play a unit coz there is a weapon that hurts them that is pretty silly plus no one competitive is running them since dark lance is overall much better. Martel used to complain about IG HWT with autocannons one shotting Primaris.



Dissy cannons are an absolutely great weapon all around. As a Dark Eldar player I can verify their strength. If a person had a huge amount of them and I am pure Primaris I am very likely going to get steam rolled so I'd rather not bother playing that game. Its the same concept as fighting two primarchs in a 1000 point game as Primaris. It is just not going to work out for you. I would also contest that "nobody is running them" bit because 1. It is still very early on in the lifespan of the codex so its hard to say what works and what does not on a competitive level and they for sure have a niche alongside the dark lance.


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




IG with autocannons is super effective vs primaris. I stopped complaining because people got sick of it. But 48" s7 d2 -1 save is better than ever. And primaris struggle to neutralize hwts.

Dark lance is NOT better overall, esp vs t8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Laugh all you want, a one wound marine does waste some damage potential for the disintegrator. Disparaging me doesn't improve your argument.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/30 23:12:20


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

Who really brings AC in a competitive guard list though really? You should make a list of every 2 DMG ranged weapon.

@ Ironblod I play ITC missions which provide LoS blocking terrain.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
 
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