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The problem lies in the core rules and has little do do with Orks. Short of dealing with the core shooting rules, changing Ork BS *back* to the 2E equivalency of 4+ and better, plus having quaint Orky weapon rules, is their best bet to dig themselves out of the core shooting rules hole they dug. We'll likely instead get some lame core rules breaking rule(s) that for some reason only applies to Orks. And quaint Orky weapon rules. I don't have much confidence at this point. I like many things about 8E, but there are enough fundamental issues with it that makes it hard for me to believe that the hundreds (or thousands) of people involved in play testing the edition didn't notice it before everything was finalized. Maybe it just got shoved out the door due to deadlines, and people just ate it up anyways.

It's pretty safe to assume that 8th was tested by significantly less than 100 people.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's pretty safe to assume that 8th was tested by significantly less than 100 people.

Nope, it was tested by 100 people who agreed with everything Reece said

The problem is that 8th was tested by the competitive community, none of whom had done much with Orks for years thanks to Orks being absolute bottom of the barrel for two editions. So when 8th rolled around they really had no idea what the core issues with the army were and just slapped stuff together. On top of that, there's no-one left in the rules team who likes Orks so we have no-one there who's going to go out of their way to figure out how to write the best book for us, and will instead just fiddle with a few things and call it a day.

Prove me wrong GW but at this point I don't actually have any hope left. The fact that we've heard absolutely nothing for two months also doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about what's coming.

Well IG went from struggling to top tier, so anythings possible. It would be so funny if the Ork codex turns out to be the most OP codex of 8th edition.

Tygre wrote:
Well IG went from struggling to top tier, so anythings possible. It would be so funny if the Ork codex turns out to be the most OP codex of 8th edition.

Yeah, and who is running GW's rules department currently? Robin Cruddace, the man who made IG insane back before 8th and an avowed tread-head. Phil Kelly's still on the team and what to his golden-boys, Eldar, get? An insanely strong codex (though let's face it, Eldar haven't been bad in a very, very long time. And Kelly's been on the team the whole time too. Hmm....)

Kelly wrote the best ork codex in two decades!

Well, there were only two, and one was a disaster, but still.

 Jidmah wrote:
Kelly wrote the best ork codex in two decades!

Well, there were only two, and one was a disaster, but still.

It's true, and barring some outliers at the time (tankbustas weren't so hot, nor were flash gitz), it was an army with enough flavour to try out several types of armies without severely gimping yourself. I'm all for returning to that with the next Ork codex. It would just be really nice to have Ork vehicles that are worth taking over just infantry.

Does anyone else want the Warboss to change? Although I love how cheap they are I think I'd rather see them go up in price and be a bigger, tougher, and killier unit since they are supposed to be the biggest and meanest ork around. With the 4+ save and no invuln though they just don't feel that tough in the games I've played.

 DrGiggles wrote:
Does anyone else want the Warboss to change? Although I love how cheap they are I think I'd rather see them go up in price and be a bigger, tougher, and killier unit since they are supposed to be the biggest and meanest ork around. With the 4+ save and no invuln though they just don't feel that tough in the games I've played.

They are laughably weak in terms of survivability and there is no reason they don't have at least a 5+ invuln in cqc.

It's not like they didn't use to have one...

IMO a warboss should feel in combat like daemon princes do. Lots of damage, lots of wounds, hard to kill. Currently striking with a powerklaw feels like some support character is using the melee weapon he comes with, rather than a dedicated CC HQ.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's not like they didn't use to have one...

IMO a warboss should feel in combat like daemon princes do. Lots of damage, lots of wounds, hard to kill. Currently striking with a powerklaw feels like some support character is using the melee weapon he comes with, rather than a dedicated CC HQ.

A 5+ invuln or some sort of FnP in cqc would definitely be nice. Does anyone see a downside in bumping up the powerklaw damage to 1+d3 or flat 3 damage? I know powerfists would still be d3 but they could probably use a buff as well.

 DrGiggles wrote:
A 5+ invuln or some sort of FnP in cqc would definitely be nice. Does anyone see a downside in bumping up the powerklaw damage to 1+d3 or flat 3 damage? I know powerfists would still be d3 but they could probably use a buff as well.

Yes to the cqc survivability buff.

PowerKlaw should be D6 or flat 3 damage no diggity doubt. They're supposed to be our most reliable AV weapon. Also they shouldn't be -1 to hit vehicles.

d6 would probably better from a design point of view, otherwise it would invalidate the big choppa.

Apologies if this has been suggested, I didn't have the time to scroll back through 19 pages of posts, but me and friend had a thought about Dakka.

What about Orks always hitting on 5's and 6's.

Always. Can't be negatively modified or improved. But counts for both the shooting phase and overwatch.

Yes, it was suggested, multiple times.

Orks hitting on 5s during overwatch would be out of character for orks, too strong due to the many shots we have to compensate for BS5 and a completely unneeded buff for something we aren't using that often in the first place.

 Jidmah wrote:
d6 would probably better from a design point of view, otherwise it would invalidate the big choppa.

You seen that new GSC weapon? The Power Sledgehammer?

Str x 2, AP-3, D6 damage but 1's and 2's are resolved as 3 damage. No negative to hit.

This should be the Power Klaw stats IMO.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
d6 would probably better from a design point of view, otherwise it would invalidate the big choppa.

You seen that new GSC weapon? The Power Sledgehammer?

Str x 2, AP-3, D6 damage but 1's and 2's are resolved as 3 damage. No negative to hit.

This should be the Power Klaw stats IMO.

Love the stat line but it would probably have to go up in price. And if it is doing 3+ damage no matter what then having the negative to hit doesn't feel as painful as it does now.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
d6 would probably better from a design point of view, otherwise it would invalidate the big choppa.

You seen that new GSC weapon? The Power Sledgehammer?

Str x 2, AP-3, D6 damage but 1's and 2's are resolved as 3 damage. No negative to hit.

This should be the Power Klaw stats IMO.

Love the stat line but it would probably have to go up in price. And if it is doing 3+ damage no matter what then having the negative to hit doesn't feel as painful as it does now.

Dude this weapon is a straight up copy paste of a GSC weapon.

There's no way GSC should be better in melee combat than Orks.

That's not the stats for a weapon you can have in every squad. Almost every army has a powerful melee weapon like that, but there are very limited models in the army that can use it. PKs can be everywhere.

That said, I would like those stats for a relic powerklaw, thank you very much

PK used to work well when they had the chance to destroy a vehicle, so it needs to go back to that status.
I also see reason in the argument that a PK should not work as well for killing infantry as it does for killing vehicles, because otherwise the PK will be mandatory on every nob again.

Therefore D6 damage and no penalty to hit sounds like what it should be. Fixed three damage is better against elite infantry that has two or three wounds, while d6 is better against models with many wound due to higher average damage.
Just the possibility of a single nob lucking out and one-shotting a tank will change how units with a PK nob play, combared to knowing that the nob will never do more than 9 damage (barring other buffs)

I'm not sure the weapon is exclusive only to the abominant, it may well be for aberrants too. They also have a hench 2 handed weapon and there was talk in the preview of hyper morphs or something with better weapons.

I find this weapon pretty irritating. Its better than SM powerfists, thunder hammers? Why aren't SM using this mining equipment if it's so boss? Its better than a Dread Klaw. Bonkers

Ork drop pods pleaaase. Holds 20 units and can damage an enemy unit as it comes down. (holding 30) would be OP.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm not sure the weapon is exclusive only to the abominant, it may well be for aberrants too. They also have a hench 2 handed weapon and there was talk in the preview of hyper morphs or something with better weapons.

I find this weapon pretty irritating. Its better than SM powerfists, thunder hammers? Why aren't SM using this mining equipment if it's so boss? Its better than a Dread Klaw. Bonkers

It's pretty clear from the article that the super sledge hammer is for abominant only, who is either an HQ or elite single character.

It's also worse than a dreadnought chain fist or seismic hammer

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
How about this:

General rule: Dakka Dakka Dakka: a roll of a natural 6 to hit when shooting is always considered a hit regardless of modifiers, additionally, for every natural roll of 6 in the shooting phase, infantry models without artillery can fire another shot with the same weapon (this extra shots can not generate extra shots)

Well im happy to see that my prayers were heard, though this working for KMK and overwatch will be crazy

Overwatch? That's a 1 in 36 chance to do something.

 Jidmah wrote:
Overwatch? That's a 1 in 36 chance to do something.

lmao, welcome to ork logic Jidmah, "OMG WE GOT A NEW ABILITY THAT WHEN IT WORKS IS AMAZING!" and then you and me the reality players "Yeah but dude, its a 2.77% chance to get 1 extra hit....that won't help much"

I am still unsure if this reaction we see is caused by ork players not running the numbers OR if we, as a community, have been crapped on for so long that any kind of "buff" is viewed as amazing regardless of its effectiveness. I personally think it might be a combination of the two with a strong leaning towards the 1st option. A third option is also the random masochists who enjoy playing this kind of thing

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Overwatch? That's a 1 in 36 chance to do something.

lmao, welcome to ork logic Jidmah, "OMG WE GOT A NEW ABILITY THAT WHEN IT WORKS IS AMAZING!" and then you and me the reality players "Yeah but dude, its a 2.77% chance to get 1 extra hit....that won't help much"

I am still unsure if this reaction we see is caused by ork players not running the numbers OR if we, as a community, have been crapped on for so long that any kind of "buff" is viewed as amazing regardless of its effectiveness. I personally think it might be a combination of the two with a strong leaning towards the 1st option. A third option is also the random masochists who enjoy playing this kind of thing

Nah, it's just the Orks=NPC mindset.
"Our shooting is inefficient" - "Orks should be bad at shooting"
"Our PKs are too expensive and do to little" - "It cannot be better than a PF"
"Our elites die too fast" - "Orks are supposed to die fast"
"Look, we got a minor buff!" - "Everyone should have that."


I really struggle to stop myself from trolling the space marine thread by telling them how their army is fine because Gulliman+Razorbacks sometimes places 3rd in some 12 people tournaments. You know, like all the SM players do in our threads.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Overwatch? That's a 1 in 36 chance to do something.

lmao, welcome to ork logic Jidmah, "OMG WE GOT A NEW ABILITY THAT WHEN IT WORKS IS AMAZING!" and then you and me the reality players "Yeah but dude, its a 2.77% chance to get 1 extra hit....that won't help much"

I am still unsure if this reaction we see is caused by ork players not running the numbers OR if we, as a community, have been crapped on for so long that any kind of "buff" is viewed as amazing regardless of its effectiveness. I personally think it might be a combination of the two with a strong leaning towards the 1st option. A third option is also the random masochists who enjoy playing this kind of thing

Nah, it's just the Orks=NPC mindset.
"Our shooting is inefficient" - "Orks should be bad at shooting"
"Our PKs are too expensive and do to little" - "It cannot be better than a PF"
"Our elites die too fast" - "Orks are supposed to die fast"
"Look, we got a minor buff!" - "Everyone should have that."


I really struggle to stop myself from trolling the space marine thread by telling them how their army is fine because Gulliman+Razorbacks sometimes places 3rd in some 12 people tournaments. You know, like all the SM players do in our threads.

Yep that must be it. I do have to say though that it REALLY bothers me when morons say orkz shouldn't be able to shoot...if that is the case then why is 2/3rds of our damn army focused at least primarily on SHOOTING! If we are just supposed to be a horde CC army then what is the point of Nids? why have 2 armies that do literally the same thing?

As for the PK thing, yeah, it seems most of the community has forgotten that the ONLY way orkz were killing vehicles for the last 3 editions has been using a Nob with PK to get into CC and then murder the vehicle. At the moment that doesn't work, nor does shooting it so we are left with killing vehicles with a FETHLOAD of S4 attacks in CC which is extremely boring and highly inefficient to the point where I ignore vehicles where I can because it will just take to long to kill.

Elites dying to fast you say? NO! can't be, they are Orkz so they should die quick right? That is why our Meganobz get a whole 3 wounds each, because multi damage weapons aren't a thing nor are weapons with high AP and a ton of shots. This also rolls over into our other options that aren't "Boyz with different weapons/options" specifically look at Warbikes, ALL of our vehicles, Flash Gitz....I mean seriously 27pts for a Nob model with a 6+ save and a weapon similar to a Plasma gun...except its heavy and hits left often.

And the minor buffs...I am so sick of hearing about how DakkaDakkaDakka is going to be amazing and really buff ork shooting. Its 5% likelihood of another hit and a 15% increase in hits. It would be good if our weapons doubled in shot output but until that happens this is just a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

Would be simpler to cancel the mistake made in 3rd edition and make them bs4+. As it stands I quite like the rule. It’s not crazy over the top but it will stop shooting feeling like a complete waste of time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And depending the size and make of the band aid it’s not the worst thing to do with a sucking chest wound. An arterial bleed would’ve been a better analogy.

I agree, many other armies have varying BS for combat and shooting armies, we could as well. But I guess that ship has sailed. As it is, Bad Moons almost got BS4, and Freebootas have BS4+DakkaDakkaDakka if they manage to kill something.

In general DakkaDakkaDakka makes all our shouting 16.66% less inefficient (yay?), so with some point drops I could see them going places.