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It's not unlike GWs '"3 ways to play" and all the many various optional rules for matched play.

While yes, everyone is free to pick and choose all the pieces they want to do what they want there is a vast majority who are playing with a core set of the matched play rules enabled. Because at the end of the day what most players want is a consistent core set of rules they don't have to work to make functional.

Having options is great. Having officially published and spelled out options is best. And if the players want to remove or change pieces of them they are always free to do that regardless. That consistent baseline is still wanted.

AD&D had decent evasion/pursuit rules, and morale rules. Adapting those to 5e -- and stream-lining them-- would work.

Or just do something about the 1 movement rate fits all nonsense. It is essentially impossible to break off combat and run away.

Hi Chaps,

Need some advice as I'm struggling to get into my current campaign. I like a strong narrative but when I talked to DM he said he wants this campaign to be more freeform and make your own fun style.

Any tips on how I can get the best out of this sort of campaign? Without a central conflict to resolve or sense of urgency I don't know what to do haha!

Cheers
Kroem

 Kroem wrote:
Hi Chaps,

Need some advice as I'm struggling to get into my current campaign. I like a strong narrative but when I talked to DM he said he wants this campaign to be more freeform and make your own fun style.

Any tips on how I can get the best out of this sort of campaign? Without a central conflict to resolve or sense of urgency I don't know what to do haha!

Cheers
Kroem

Make a character with strong motivations for what they do and make sure these motivations have the potential for conflict with each other.

Your characters motivations and morals will create conflict, which will drive the story. The narrative is how your character will have to change and grow in response to the situations they find themselves in rather than a predetermined set of events that will occur.

As an example, lets say you're playing a lawful good paladin whose motivation is to uphold the law and protect the people. What will happen when they encounter a society where the law is actively oppressing the people? How will they resolve this conflict between their motivations? Will they decide that the law is not worth upholding or that without the law there would be anarchy? Either decision has the potential to drastically affect your character. If they decide to cast aside the law as a principle to be bound to, then only their personal view of right and wrong is what guides their actions. How is that different from any vigilante? If they decide that the law is absolute, despite its consequences on the people, then how will having to abandon people the law will not protect affect them?

I think there's both an in-game and out of game solution to that.

The in game solution, if you are being given absolutely no direction, is to figure out what your character cares about in the absence of an immediate threat or task, and be proactive in making that the narrative that the campaign follows. Talk in character with the other PCs about what they want to achieve, and try and draw out some common goals. If a few of you have been wronged by a local baron, for instance, you can decide that you're going to take that baron down and boom, there's your narrative; if the DM is true to their conviction that this is a truly freeform game, they should then be happy to cater for your party following this objective and design their content accordingly. Proactive players, rather than the DM become the driving force in this sort of game, so it's essentially on you to pick a direction then trust in the DM to develop that direction and provide opportunity for you to resolve the task you set yourself.

The potential problem you'll run into here is if the others in the group are happy to just Skyrim about, fighting monsters and robbing dungeons and all that adventurer jazz. At that point, you probably want to look at the off-table path, the key to that is communication. Talk to the DM and to the other players, and try and work out what the group as a whole (DM very much included) wants. The worst case scenario there is unfortunately that the group splits, I've had this happen in the past when there's two halves of the group wanting two very different games and as DM I wanted to run one kind far more than the other. More likely though is that you can settle on some sort of compromise, or even something as radical as a change of DM if that means everyone gets a game they're more happy with. Not every game is going to be for everyone, and there's no point forcing it or going for a compromise that leaves no one as happy as they could be, but you may well find there is a solution to be had by talking it over and seeing if everyone's on the same page.

Cool thanks for the advice, I think I do have some hooks for personal goals;

• Being a cleric in a faithless world.
• Being an orphan left at the sacred grove when young.
• Being a half-elf in a word where Elves have disappeared.

I'll have a think on how I can turn these conflicts into goals and then see if I can get the party on board!

Cheers
Kroem

Go with the classic cleric motivation, to get some land in order to build the best temple possible to your diety and of course to bring faith to the faithless world.

 Da Boss wrote:
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/43568/roleplaying-games/game-structures-addendum-system-matters

This is an interesting article that explains how the rules for certain kinds of play have atrophied from the game over the years. I think it helps explain why some older gamers are at times a little let down with 5e, even though it is a great system and probably my favourite overall.

An interesting article for sure......

That being said, as a rules-lite, theatre of the mind type player I think he is mostly wrong. Systems do not matter. The players only need to believe that a "system" exists and the GM needs only reward the behaviors he wants in his game for an RPG to work.

However, it is absolutely right in that players choose systems to fit the style of game they want to play. Most systems simply "railroad" players and DMs into a "way to play the game" as opposed to allowing them create the game they want to play. For example, D&D is a heavily combat oriented game, and therefore many players simply play as murder-hobos. That is the way the rewards mechanisms in D&D are structured. Meanwhile, a game like L5R has combat be very lethal and the rewards system is focused more upon social interactions and therefore, the game features far less combat and much less polite conversation. If a group of players has a strong idea of what they are trying to accomplish, then the system barely matters.

That being said, he makes an excellent point that new players and groups will inevitably fall into playing the structures that the system they are using tends to support. Then, when other games try to do things differently, they will get very confused and may or may not wish to continue or even know how to frame the experience.

Systems very much matter because they guide your thoughts. beyond the hard framework they provide.

And they make assumptions as to the kind of story and setting your playing in.

I think system matters, but I think the issue is more that people are conservative about which systems they try. Dungeons and Dragons is evolved from a skirmish wargame with some stuff bolted onto it, and I really enjoy the skirmish wargame aspects to it more and more as I get older.

Playing it as a heavily narrative style game is possible, but you are going to be doing more heavy lifting as a GM and not getting much use out of the work the system designers did to make the game in the first place.
You would probably be happier playing a game which is structured around narratives, and even better, around the kind of narratives you enjoy. There are games like this, games that structure the mechanics around story moments and narrative arcs rather than tactical movement and so on. They can be really awesome games to play, but not for people who want tactical combat and a simulationist approach to the game.

But because Dungeons and Dragons is the grandaddy game with the biggest brand and the most cultural impact, people tend to stick with it rather than going looking for their ideal game. Indeed, it takes a long time to figure out what your ideal game actually is, so you probably just kludge D&D until it fits what you want and then you figure "This is how Dungeons and Dragons is" since you by nature play it with a small group of people.

System matters, but not too much. People are having a great time without worrying about it. But sometimes people could have an even better time if they found a system that suited their desires a little more.

 Easy E wrote:



That being said, as a rules-lite, theatre of the mind type player I think he is mostly wrong. Systems do not matter. The players only need to believe that a "system" exists and the GM needs only reward the behaviors he wants in his game for an RPG to work.

If a group of players has a strong idea of what they are trying to accomplish, then the system barely matters.

I think this is probably the explanation for my experience with the game and why I don't necessarily understand the 'D&D is a combat game' argument. When I started playing, it was off the back of a) not having time to write much creative stuff due to the demands of uni work and b) discovering the likes of Critical Role. So with the people I started playing with, we took the approach that we were using the game to facilitate storytelling and creative narratives, rather than as a tactical exercise, and with that outlook from the start we were able to, as Da Boss puts it, 'kludged; the game into that specific shape.

Which isn't to say that we weren't given the tools for that; we very quickly abandoned XP and switched to milestone levelling, made a big deal of backgrounds as more than just a way to get some extra Proficiency, that sort of thing. Maybe 5e doesn't give you the most to work with in that regard, but it is enough that with the mindset of the game as a narrative framework, it never felt like a struggle. I've never had to deal with murder-hobos chasing XP because I've used the tools that disincentive that and put aside the ones that do, and that's why I'm firmly in the camp that it's the players (GM included), not the rules, that shape how I approach a game.

I think this is why I basically like game systems that stick to accessibility/simplicity and resolution mechanics, rather than telling you specifically how to go about playing, because with what I'm looking for in RPGs, I'll run them all broadly the same anyway using the resources provided. While I'd undoubtedly vary the tone and content for, say, a Call of Cthulhu game, my process from planning to preparation to running the game at the table would be exactly the same as it would be for 5e, Edge of the Empire, Blades in the Dark or whatever, really.

So really, what I'm looking for is a) mechanics that are fun for players on a meta level, which for my group generally means fairly simple stuff that stays unobtrusive, and b) the resources that make my job easier (which is why after I switched from Dragon Age to 5e I never went back, because there's just so much more support for 5e, from official to 3rd party to easily accessible homebrew to just the knowledge base of the various communities around the game). If, hypothetically, there was a system that was as simple/accessible and well-supported as 5e, there's every chance I'd switch to that, but I'd run it in exactly the same way.

I like simple resolution mechanics too, but I also find it helpful if the game provides some mechanics for simulation of stuff I want to simulate, because I find it more satisfying than purely making stuff up as I go along - it helps me and my players to "believe" in the world.

D&D 5th is a very good game because it is fairly simple and modular and so it can be easily adapted to a wide range of uses. I really like it.

By comparison, the Fantasy Flight 40K roleplaying games were a mess of mechanics and useless rules, high level simulation in some areas and then basically nothing to help with other stuff (the mechanics given in Rogue Trader for running a giant spaceship with a crew of hundreds if not thousands were piss poor given that is what players are actually doing in game, instead focusing rules and advancement on the ships officers advancing in combat skills and so on, even though they hardly ever had a face to face fight. It is a terrible system in a great setting.)

I am planning a Sci Fi game and I intend on using a version of 5e to run it because it does what I want in terms of tactical play, it is simple to adapt, my players already understand how it works, and if I am gonna have to make a system for starship combat and crewing myself it may as well be with a system I am already very familiar with and understand.

 Da Boss wrote:
I like simple resolution mechanics too, but I also find it helpful if the game provides some mechanics for simulation of stuff I want to simulate, because I find it more satisfying than purely making stuff up as I go along - it helps me and my players to "believe" in the world.

D&D 5th is a very good game because it is fairly simple and modular and so it can be easily adapted to a wide range of uses. I really like it.

By comparison, the Fantasy Flight 40K roleplaying games were a mess of mechanics and useless rules, high level simulation in some areas and then basically nothing to help with other stuff (the mechanics given in Rogue Trader for running a giant spaceship with a crew of hundreds if not thousands were piss poor given that is what players are actually doing in game, instead focusing rules and advancement on the ships officers advancing in combat skills and so on, even though they hardly ever had a face to face fight. It is a terrible system in a great setting.)

I am planning a Sci Fi game and I intend on using a version of 5e to run it because it does what I want in terms of tactical play, it is simple to adapt, my players already understand how it works, and if I am gonna have to make a system for starship combat and crewing myself it may as well be with a system I am already very familiar with and understand.

If I can make a recomendation... look up Coriolis. Great sci fi rpg with ship rules. Free sample rules from their website and it's not hard to google a pdf if you want a free preview before you buy. Uses only d6s. easy peasy to play and run.

Does anyone know if WoTC has an official repository of maps from their own campaign settings in a digital format?

I'm running a lot of the official game campaigns, and a lot of their dungeons are very, very complex and difficult to reproduce on my wet-erase mat. I was hoping I could get jet the digital versions and blow them up to print out at work. Securing them to whiteboard is easy-peasy and then I can keep them for recurrent uses.

 Togusa wrote:
Does anyone know if WoTC has an official repository of maps from their own campaign settings in a digital format?

I'm running a lot of the official game campaigns, and a lot of their dungeons are very, very complex and difficult to reproduce on my wet-erase mat. I was hoping I could get jet the digital versions and blow them up to print out at work. Securing them to whiteboard is easy-peasy and then I can keep them for recurrent uses.

If you purchase the adventures on DnD beyond you get high res versions of every image. One of the guys that do that official artwork also sells the images by themselves on his website. but I couldn't find it just now when I was looking. I'll update this comment if/when I find it.

balmong7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Does anyone know if WoTC has an official repository of maps from their own campaign settings in a digital format?

I'm running a lot of the official game campaigns, and a lot of their dungeons are very, very complex and difficult to reproduce on my wet-erase mat. I was hoping I could get jet the digital versions and blow them up to print out at work. Securing them to whiteboard is easy-peasy and then I can keep them for recurrent uses.

If you purchase the adventures on DnD beyond you get high res versions of every image. One of the guys that do that official artwork also sells the images by themselves on his website. but I couldn't find it just now when I was looking. I'll update this comment if/when I find it.

I was hoping for physical, not digital maps and things. My group and I have a strict "No Phones, No Laptop" policy during sessions to cut down on distractions.

 Togusa wrote:

balmong7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Does anyone know if WoTC has an official repository of maps from their own campaign settings in a digital format?

I'm running a lot of the official game campaigns, and a lot of their dungeons are very, very complex and difficult to reproduce on my wet-erase mat. I was hoping I could get jet the digital versions and blow them up to print out at work. Securing them to whiteboard is easy-peasy and then I can keep them for recurrent uses.

If you purchase the adventures on DnD beyond you get high res versions of every image. One of the guys that do that official artwork also sells the images by themselves on his website. but I couldn't find it just now when I was looking. I'll update this comment if/when I find it.

I was hoping for physical, not digital maps and things. My group and I have a strict "No Phones, No Laptop" policy during sessions to cut down on distractions.

Yes but you would own the images, and could get them printed. Otherwise best bet is track down those expensive special edition versions of the adventures that come with paper handouts like this one, but I don't even know if every adventure gets one. https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products-miniatures/beadle-and-grimms-platinum-edition

So it looks like Imabout to die.

Sad face.

Basically, my character is now at the mercy of a lich, trapped in a room with a fighter who has 5 hit points and played by someone who cannot do basic math. And I have no spell slots. So I'm completely at the mercy of whatever the lich wants and if that's my corpse he is gonna get it.

Bright side, new character ideas. I'm thinking of a topical character for the current campaign and how to make it work, which has resulted in my idea for a Black Draconic Origin Sorcerer who uses lots of trickery rather than direct damage spells. Stuff like Blink, Misty Step, Mirror Image and the very fun looking Greater Invisibility. The idea is to make the character mostly melee oriented, using spells for support/self buffing rather than direct damage.

I've been looking at melee classes to pair this with, and while Paladin is a really obvious choice (Bladelok too), both those choices seem kind of... cheesy. Which is how I narrowed my eyes toward Rogue.

I like the theme. A sneaky rogue like hobgoblin angry at his dragon grand-daddy who didn't love him enough, joins the party, and proceeds to massacre things with sneak attacks from invisibility and debilitating spells like confusion and hypnotic circle. Throw in Vitrolic Sphere as the only good acid damage spell I actually get for some AoE damage, mirror image and blink for defense in bad situations and then lots of area and crowd control. Maybe Haste, but Haste also seems really cheesy.

My question is, can this work and if so, how should I distribute stats to make the most of the narrative framework for the character? Hobgoblin is not the ideal race for this combo, and the ability scores are looking like some sacrifices will need to be made.

A good thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the more tricksy spells don't really care about your Casting stat much. While you should probably still put your second best into Charisma, things like Invisibility, Blink, Haste (powerful, but not necessarily cheesy, and you can always cast it on someone else if you want, so you're helping rather then overshadowing party members) don't really get affected by your Spell DC/Mod. So if you want to largely leave the spells for buffing yourself and allies, and leave the damage dealing to your Sneak Attacks or buffed party members, I'd go Dex first, Cha second.

Get an odd number in Int if you can to make use of the racial boost to that (and depending on how far you take Rogue, some of their subclasses use Int), treat the +2 Con as free HP each level and probably stick your lowest into Str or Wis, unless you have a narrative desire for this character to be particularly good at either of those.


Only other suggestion, but if you like this playstyle, an alternate way to do it might be Trickery Domain Cleric, who also go very nicely into Rogue and get all the fun trick spells. The dragon ancestry thing might be too cool thematically to pass up though!

 LordofHats wrote:
So it looks like Imabout to die.

Sad face.

Basically, my character is now at the mercy of a lich, trapped in a room with a fighter who has 5 hit points and played by someone who cannot do basic math. And I have no spell slots. So I'm completely at the mercy of whatever the lich wants and if that's my corpse he is gonna get it.

Bright side, new character ideas. I'm thinking of a topical character for the current campaign and how to make it work, which has resulted in my idea for a Black Draconic Origin Sorcerer who uses lots of trickery rather than direct damage spells. Stuff like Blink, Misty Step, Mirror Image and the very fun looking Greater Invisibility. The idea is to make the character mostly melee oriented, using spells for support/self buffing rather than direct damage.

I've been looking at melee classes to pair this with, and while Paladin is a really obvious choice (Bladelok too), both those choices seem kind of... cheesy. Which is how I narrowed my eyes toward Rogue.

I like the theme. A sneaky rogue like hobgoblin angry at his dragon grand-daddy who didn't love him enough, joins the party, and proceeds to massacre things with sneak attacks from invisibility and debilitating spells like confusion and hypnotic circle. Throw in Vitrolic Sphere as the only good acid damage spell I actually get for some AoE damage, mirror image and blink for defense in bad situations and then lots of area and crowd control. Maybe Haste, but Haste also seems really cheesy.

My question is, can this work and if so, how should I distribute stats to make the most of the narrative framework for the character? Hobgoblin is not the ideal race for this combo, and the ability scores are looking like some sacrifices will need to be made.

I'm not the most familiar with rogues or multiclassing, but the arcane trickster subtype is probably a good way to go for some added spell utility. otherwise, the only rogue stat that really matters is dex.

That is a cool character concept. Are you gonna be playing Red Hand of Doom? Lich and Dragon tainted Hobgoblins sounds familiar. If so, JEALOUS!

 Da Boss wrote:
That is a cool character concept. Are you gonna be playing Red Hand of Doom? Lich and Dragon tainted Hobgoblins sounds familiar. If so, JEALOUS!

We're currently playing Forge of Fury from Tales of the Yawning Portal. It's mostly about Orcs and a Black Dragon, but we've already encountered some Goblins and Hobs in the Orc army, and Orc is even less suited for this and I just don't want to be a tiny goblin XD

Okay, so my character isn't dead.

Instead, the fighter got 3 crits on an action surge turn after going down and rolling a 20 on a death save. Then went down again.

My character bashed the proto lich with two crits over three turns before going down himself, rolled a 20 on a death save, got right back up and got another freaking crit to kill the proto lich with 1 hit point remaining XD

Because feth the game apparently wanted it to be epic I guess?

 LordofHats wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
That is a cool character concept. Are you gonna be playing Red Hand of Doom? Lich and Dragon tainted Hobgoblins sounds familiar. If so, JEALOUS!

We're currently playing Forge of Fury from Tales of the Yawning Portal. It's mostly about Orcs and a Black Dragon, but we've already encountered some Goblins and Hobs in the Orc army, and Orc is even less suited for this and I just don't want to be a tiny goblin XD

Ah, forge of fury, we played through this too recently. Orcs, Troglodytes, an Ogre, Deep Dwarves, a Succubus, and a Black Dragon!

But I can't remember a lich to be around! Did you adapt the storyline for your group?

The DM might be. Pretty sure we encountered a succubus right after I killed the lice. She was bound in a side room and managed to get free by charming most of the party.

Because once you’ve encountered a succubus once the entire thing is spoiled for all subsequent encounters xD

 Moscha wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
That is a cool character concept. Are you gonna be playing Red Hand of Doom? Lich and Dragon tainted Hobgoblins sounds familiar. If so, JEALOUS!

We're currently playing Forge of Fury from Tales of the Yawning Portal. It's mostly about Orcs and a Black Dragon, but we've already encountered some Goblins and Hobs in the Orc army, and Orc is even less suited for this and I just don't want to be a tiny goblin XD

Ah, forge of fury, we played through this too recently. Orcs, Troglodytes, an Ogre, Deep Dwarves, a Succubus, and a Black Dragon!

But I can't remember a lich to be around! Did you adapt the storyline for your group?

Ah the Forge of Fury, probably my all time favorite adventure. I remember running it back in 3rd edition...christ almost 20 years ago.

Our Rogue was crushed to death by an animated table...good times.

https://twitter.com/bbcthree/status/1181888699480641539?lang=en

I get that there are so-called "Culture Wars" going on right now, but Jesus this video is slowed.

You have a woman claiming that D&D, a game where you can literally be anything you want, from a giant dragon to a minuscule roach person as not "inclusive" enough. And, in the same video, said lady goes on to talk about how she met most of her inclusive friends THROUGH the hobby.

What is with people these days when it comes to this stuff? It's as if they are incapable of critical thought.

What more do they want from the hobby? Is this about getting people to play with each other, or are they just obsessed with quotas?

You have to be pretty much looking for something to be angry about to get worked up about that video in which, as you do point out, she spends the vast majority of it singing its praises as an activity which is basically built to be inclusive.

However, since it relies on other people to play with, and there are some people who do hold some very toxic views, there can be issues. Like a creep taking their sexism and rape fantasies into a game of D&D where the other players want to be a happy travelling band of halfling bards just looking for the best gastropub in the multiverse. Or the old stories/jokes of the DM trying to use the players to live their sexual fetishes ("Dare you enter my magical realm?"). Or FATAL. Or Racial Holy War.



So, basically she is saying that RPGs are great and amazing and can be really inclusive but you do still need to be careful as there are still people out there who are toxic, like in any fandom. What part of that do you actually disagree with?

In my experience, the hardest part about being a nerd is having to deal with other nerds in order to play games.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You have to be pretty much looking for something to be angry about to get worked up about that video in which, as you do point out, she spends the vast majority of it singing its praises as an activity which is basically built to be inclusive.

However, since it relies on other people to play with, and there are some people who do hold some very toxic views, there can be issues. Like a creep taking their sexism and rape fantasies into a game of D&D where the other players want to be a happy travelling band of halfling bards just looking for the best gastropub in the multiverse. Or the old stories/jokes of the DM trying to use the players to live their sexual fetishes ("Dare you enter my magical realm?"). Or FATAL. Or Racial Holy War.

Spoiler:

http://gunshowcomic.com/471

So, basically she is saying that RPGs are great and amazing and can be really inclusive but you do still need to be careful as there are still people out there who are toxic, like in any fandom. What part of that do you actually disagree with?

My issue with the video is that it is so condescending and literally uses outdated and incorrect stereotypes to harass a group of people. The very thing these people commonly advocate against. When it is done to them.
I feel like a lot of those examples are the extreme examples. I've been Role Playing for 23 years and I have played with hundreds of groups, probably close to a thousand people. In all that time I've never heard any real world examples of those kinds of behaviors, and I certainly haven't experienced them myself. The worst I've ever had to deal with was extreme levels of metagaming, which while annoying, is to be somewhat expected.

Also I wouldn't say that I'm angry about the video. Annoyed definitely, but that is because as a person who likes a lot of this stuff, there is a phenomenal amount of abuse that gets hurtled our way from the media and the normies out there. Her tone is condescending and this video definitely tries to push the narrative that we're all neck beards in the basement (it literally uses that offensive stereotype) thus planting the seeds in the viewers mind that we're all anti-social not well adjusted nerds who do nothing by sexualize women and reee about pronouns all day long.

Gaming has for a long time been the target of attack campaigns, some of them justified and some of them not. But you ever notice how rarely anyone in these groups ever call out the sexism in rap music? Which in my opinion is far, FAR worse than anything I've personally seen in the gaming community.

As for toxic groups, we all pick the people we run with in life. I don't think the games we play foster the behavior, I think we need to be more careful about who we befriend (when we can).