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I feel that the -1 to attack for just 3 points was a nerf for them unfortunately.
For attacks per point our scarab friends are it, with the strat to Advance and charge getting them into combat won't be so hard. The Novokh dynesty covers the 4WS problem nicely and if they run onto somthing hard just blow them up for a +2 smite.
Drakmord wrote: We should explore this more thoroughly than just assuming a GEQ statline needs to be destroyed -- what is a common GEQ unit composition that one can expect to see, with enough regularity that a unit/units dedicated to dealing with them should be in a list? They will have the rest of their army backing them up as will we, so rather than "how to kill guardsmen," how do we defeat GEQ lists?
I think this is going to be hugely meta-dependent. More so than most things. You don't really see mass infantry at ITC, but that may be due to weird things like time limits on games -- an infantry horde is going to win by eventually dominating the board, but they won't necessarily table you or be ahead on objectives at the end of turn 2 or 3, and they take forever to play. But I've had great success with all-infantry Guard lists in competitive games using ITC rules without time limits.
So there's maybe an ITC tournament style Imperial soup list that brings up to 100 Guardsmen, but then 1600 points of bigger stuff. The Guardsmen will be mostly naked, maybe with mortars. The rest of the list is probably a little bit of the other OP Guard stuff like mortars, and then something like Blood Angels or whatever the Imperial fotm is. I think you can hope to deal with this, though it's also going to have some pretty terrifying stuff in it besides the Guardsmen.
While you can put together solid lists with a lot more infantry than this -- maybe bringing Elysians as well to deep strike lasguns -- you're probably not going to run into these either casually or at time-limited tournaments. But if you're in a competitive local group you may have some crazy person with enough models to do it.
At LVO there was so many ?? All the space marine list were Imperial allies with mass infantry or mortars . Blood angels, Drake Angels, Space wolves you name it they all had the soup with them. Its all I see at my shop :(
Yea and one of them placed well. Other lists that did better focused on efficiency of damage output rather then sheer durability. Guardsmen are not that hard to remove in huge numbers. Heck my Iron warriors list cleared 144 demons in 3 turns at my last RTT. That was facing 5++ and 4++ units. Had they been guardsmen the numbers would make you dizzy.
I mean, we live in a world where 76 point quad heavy bolters exist. You generally see good players using 40 or 50 guardsmen just for screening and board control in the first turn with the rest of the points, and I mean every drop, put into efficiency of damage output.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: Flayed Ones straight up remove Guard from the table. Potentially Scarabs too, though the WS nerf hurt them. Getting to them, however, is the main problem. Flayed Ones still lack a serious delivery system, and Scarabs just die too quickly. Maybe multiple max 9 man Scarab units just booking it towards the enemy lines, especially with Nephrekh + Strat on one unit.
MWBD + Veil + the reroll charges WLT gives you a reliable way to get 20 FO into combat as discussed several pages back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 03:00:01
To stop the guessing, the answer is our most efficient unit for getting rid of GEQ is tomb blades with particle beamers, that's because they are dirt cheap and and S6 wounds GEQ on 2s. Next would be Tesla Immortals. Scarabs are not a great option, but sadly still in the upper portion of our units for taking on GEQ.
Flayed ones are bad match against GEQ, they are expensive because they reroll failed wounds, but that matters less when you are wounding on three. In fact flayed ones are so bad that point for point a doom scythe is actually better at killing GEQ.
Of course GEQ is only part of the problem, a giant blob of boyz will be an issue for us as well, largely immune to morale, packing enough attacks to wipe multiple units a round, it's basically the only viable strat the orks have and it's not a bad one. Swarm of 30 boyz and da jump power are going to be a pain.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
Grimgold wrote: To stop the guessing, the answer is our most efficient unit for getting rid of GEQ is tomb blades with particle beamers, that's because they are dirt cheap and and S6 wounds GEQ on 2s.
.
I thought this too but I ran the numbers and tesla TB are still better.
Grimgold wrote: To stop the guessing, the answer is our most efficient unit for getting rid of GEQ is tomb blades with particle beamers, that's because they are dirt cheap and and S6 wounds GEQ on 2s. Next would be Tesla Immortals. Scarabs are not a great option, but sadly still in the upper portion of our units for taking on GEQ.
Flayed ones are bad match against GEQ, they are expensive because they reroll failed wounds, but that matters less when you are wounding on three. In fact flayed ones are so bad that point for point a doom scythe is actually better at killing GEQ.
Of course GEQ is only part of the problem, a giant blob of boyz will be an issue for us as well, largely immune to morale, packing enough attacks to wipe multiple units a round, it's basically the only viable strat the orks have and it's not a bad one. Swarm of 30 boyz and da jump power are going to be a pain.
Eh the last thing im worried about is orks. 1 not in my meta and 2 they're just really terrible right now I feel bad for them.
So just to get some numbers out there for common unit configurations and their efficiency against T3 5+. For auras, we'll add in additional units as well, since the unit efficiency goes up as you add more units inside the aura. We'll only apply one aura or buff to the unit unless the HQ unit gives out multiple. And we will choose the cheapest option for that buff/aura. We also assume max model count for each unit.
True Efficiency (Including HQ Costs): How to read this:
Base: 20 Without any buff/auras, it costs 20 points to inflict an unsaved wound.
Lord's Will: 10 / 8 / 5 If we have 1 unit in this aura, it costs 10 points to inflict an unsaved wound.
If we have 2 units in this aura, it costs 8 points to inflict an unsaved wound.
If we have 3 units in this aura, it costs 5 points to inflict an unsaved wound.
Requizen wrote: Flayed Ones straight up remove Guard from the table. Potentially Scarabs too, though the WS nerf hurt them. Getting to them, however, is the main problem. Flayed Ones still lack a serious delivery system, and Scarabs just die too quickly. Maybe multiple max 9 man Scarab units just booking it towards the enemy lines, especially with Nephrekh + Strat on one unit.
MWBD + Veil + the reroll charges WLT gives you a reliable way to get 20 FO into combat as discussed several pages back.
8" with rerolls is around a 65% chance to get a charge off. That's... ok. I wouldn't call it great or reliable. And then, that's assuming they're not using Marine Scouts, Ratlings, or Scout Sentinels to zone out Deep Strikers, which they will be.
Nah, still no real reliable way to get them in range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 05:32:26
Requizen wrote: Flayed Ones straight up remove Guard from the table. Potentially Scarabs too, though the WS nerf hurt them. Getting to them, however, is the main problem. Flayed Ones still lack a serious delivery system, and Scarabs just die too quickly. Maybe multiple max 9 man Scarab units just booking it towards the enemy lines, especially with Nephrekh + Strat on one unit.
MWBD + Veil + the reroll charges WLT gives you a reliable way to get 20 FO into combat as discussed several pages back.
8" with rerolls is around a 65% chance to get a charge off. That's... ok. I wouldn't call it great or reliable. And then, that's assuming they're not using Marine Scouts, Ratlings, or Scout Sentinels to zone out Deep Strikers, which they will be.
Nah, still no real reliable way to get them in range.
Thats why I was saying in theory it seems cool and may even work the first few times against newish players at local shops but from a competitive stand point no player is going to let this happen effectively. We're just going to give them points. Its just gimmicks and will not work against someone who knows the game at all even if not scouts there will be some line of small chaff to avoid any real damage.
I really think folks are getting carried away with the guardsmen talk. There a screen, mortars and las guns will not be killing any significant portion of our army. Luckily we have units that pull double duty. DDA, which are all around pretty amazing I'd say. Plus wraiths can either float right past the screen or at worst in a long deployment, dig in with them, then in the next turn move on.
At this point though. I think there needs to be less theory hammer and more play testing. For example I am thinking our best builds won't bother with troops at all. You only need CP's IMHO for reserving destroyers, then using extermination protocols, and maybe 1 CP for the Canoptek advance and charge. I'd say 5-6 CP's is probably fine. Trying to farm CP's just seems to require taking less efficient units which then require more units and CP's to fix so why bother, just take the things that work already IMO.
Of course maybe it will turn out that our troops will pull more weight then we are guessing, but they haven't changed much from the index so I am guessing it's a safe assumption that our troops are still kind of matchup dependent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 06:07:19
Against MEQ, TEQ, and light vehicles our troops do reasonably well, and since they are cheap wounds with obsec, we should probably not bother supporting them, but we should take them.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
Azuza001 wrote: Am I missing something on the math of GEQ vs Warriors with support from a ghost ark?
40 warriors with out having to worry about moral should have little issue with 70 guards shooting Las at them even if they all were in double tap range.
70 guard, 140 shots, 70 hits, I will say 90 hits off of rerolls or whatever. That's 90 hits, 30 wounds since it's str 3 vs t4, let's say 36 wounds because rolls suck. That's still a 3+ save for only a loss of 6 guys on a squad of 20 that has 2 chances at rp, and 0 moral because I am sorry, the wl trait for ignore moral and block a power is just great. That's 3 getting up, then say 1 because rolls. So 70 guardsmen killed 2 warriors? How is that not an effective option for killing GEQ? Now you get to kill 30 more.
Because there's a massive points difference.
40 warriors + ghost ark is 640 points.
70 guard is something like 350 points (each guard is 5 points, right?)
That is not a fair comparison. If you want a more balanced analysis, you have to give the guard another 290 points of models.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Guardsmen are four points per model. You'd need 160 of them to come out with the same points values as that warrior blob. Pretty sure the Guardsmen come out on top in that comparison.
So didn' they say that the necron dex was going to be the most drastic change thus far?
It doesn't look like it. We gained a new kind of warscythe (I think?) and crypteks gained the canoptek cloak.
Stratagems are the only fix to off world deepstrike/deployment from nightscythes and monoliths. Preatorians still don't have the dynasty keyword so they miss out on pretty much every stratagem and code. Flayed ones still have a complete gak weapon with no ap. RPs are the same.
All the problems still exist. Some even got worse.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Red Corsair wrote: I really think folks are getting carried away with the guardsmen talk. There a screen, mortars and las guns will not be killing any significant portion of our army. Luckily we have units that pull double duty. DDA, which are all around pretty amazing I'd say. Plus wraiths can either float right past the screen or at worst in a long deployment, dig in with them, then in the next turn move on.
At this point though. I think there needs to be less theory hammer and more play testing. For example I am thinking our best builds won't bother with troops at all. You only need CP's IMHO for reserving destroyers, then using extermination protocols, and maybe 1 CP for the Canoptek advance and charge. I'd say 5-6 CP's is probably fine. Trying to farm CP's just seems to require taking less efficient units which then require more units and CP's to fix so why bother, just take the things that work already IMO.
Of course maybe it will turn out that our troops will pull more weight then we are guessing, but they haven't changed much from the index so I am guessing it's a safe assumption that our troops are still kind of matchup dependent.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. GEQ will not be fielded en mass, besides a few unique (rare) builds. Im not overly scared of them, especially when 50% of tesla immortals shots proc an extra 2 hits and hit on 2+ rr'ing 1's......, 10 Timmortals will put out a prodigious amount of firepower. A vault killing 1/3 of a GEQ blob from a single power alone, yet the 20 s7 tesla that can proc on 5's..... with that same GEQ blob unable to do anything to T7 28w. I dont know everyone else's meta but here on the west coast of Australia its a lot more elite, there have been a few select cases where a horde has done really well, but for the most part huge hordes are dying out due to the large number of things that can mince them.
I think there are a number of stratagems that are worth popping each round. The +1 to hit strat, the swapping ctan power, exploding scarabs, saving one to save your warlord from giving up StW, the +1 to QS, the extra c'tan power..... if you spend them all in one turn, your blowing 7 cp right there, (4.7 if you have the right dynasty). I almost never would pop them all in one round by you get the idea. CP farming is far more advantageous in Necrons than it is in alot of other armies, as we have a wide range of stratagems that can be spent every turn, meaning having more CP/getting them back is very advantageous.
For example, my ultramarines.... some games I dont even spend any CP, and thats with having the ability to farm them (big daddy G). Honour the chapter and auspex scan are usually what i spend them on, and its very situational that they get spent.... and since he gives full re-rolls to a very heavy shooting army I hardly ever need them.
Remember, Zandrekh is Sautekh and his ability is very very strong, if you can get it to pop you can do serious work to an army that build/plan their armies around certain auras. This combined with CP farming is too hard to pass up IMO, considering the other warlord traits are very very situational at best (the immune to morale is probably #2.... if your running silver tide style armies).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: So didn' they say that the necron dex was going to be the most drastic change thus far?
It doesn't look like it. We gained a new kind of warscythe (I think?) and crypteks gained the canoptek cloak.
Stratagems are the only fix to off world deepstrike/deployment from nightscythes and monoliths. Preatorians still don't have the dynasty keyword so they miss out on pretty much every stratagem and code. Flayed ones still have a complete gak weapon with no ap. RPs are the same.
All the problems still exist. Some even got worse.
Yep the voidscythe is very nice, crypteks got the canoptek cloak.
Our mobility issues have been significantly reduced, with a multitute of ways to get things where they need to be. VoT, Zandrekh/obryn, Monolith/NS, stratagems and Deciever all make the slow foot slogging troops faster. But 8th ed necrons have never been good if you run infantry heavy :(
What has been drastic is the amount of buffs they gave the already star units of the index's. It was common knowledge that the best units were all super fast and tough, wraiths, TB, vehicles. Now these are all even faster and tougher, making our power spike from this alone quite significant.
The major change, is the amount of Mortal Wounds our army can put out. Currently we sit #2 behind nids (due to biovores and their ability to spam psykers), but when beta smite comes in, the only list that can put out more MW than us will be Biovore spam. If that gets nerfed we will be #1 by a long shot at MW generation. There are weapons, warlord abilities, stratagems and units that all do mortal wounds, some in significant numbers. This is all simultaneously while our firepower has increased and our points cost decreased. Remember, index necrons had I think 2 ways (FW bomber and some meh c'tan powers) to deal MW. Now that number has gone up ridiculously. We were literally at the bottom for MW generation.
For me my crons haven't changed that much, I was running vehicle heavy, SHV & c'tan/wraith stars in index, but for the majority of cron players (it seems anyway) the codex plays vastly different to index if you want to play it at its strongest
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 09:55:32
We are usually going to need 3 HQs in army lists and one each of an Overlord, Lord and Cryptek seems sensible to grant access to all the different auras. Based on that assumption what do people think to:
Zandrekh
Obyron
Cryptek with Veil
It's about 150pts more than taking the basic versions of each type, which is off putting as our HQ tax is a problem.
It does give acces to 2 Veils though (one with an unfortunate drawback). Obyrons mantle can still be quite effective even if you don't go very far though; you can pull a unit out of assault and still shoot, or advance Zandrekh 5+D6" then teleport 6" in front to move forward quickly.
The two Veils also give the option of teleporting all 3 HQs + one unit anywhere, which might be good with a big Lychguard unit. I'm not a fan of this kind of trick as something an army is built around but as an option to have available from HQs that also function well at the core of a Battalion of troops it's nice.
What kind of list would you build around this trio?
We are usually going to need 3 HQs in army lists and one each of an Overlord, Lord and Cryptek seems sensible to grant access to all the different auras. Based on that assumption what do people think to:
Zandrekh
Obyron
Cryptek with Veil
It's about 150pts more than taking the basic versions of each type, which is off putting as our HQ tax is a problem.
It does give acces to 2 Veils though (one with an unfortunate drawback). Obyrons mantle can still be quite effective even if you don't go very far though; you can pull a unit out of assault and still shoot, or advance Zandrekh 5+D6" then teleport 6" in front to move forward quickly.
The two Veils also give the option of teleporting all 3 HQs + one unit anywhere, which might be good with a big Lychguard unit. I'm not a fan of this kind of trick as something an army is built around but as an option to have available from HQs that also function well at the core of a Battalion of troops it's nice.
What kind of list would you build around this trio?
Hmm, youve given me an idea. I was wondering how to get Zandrekh into aura range, my plan for HQ's is two cape-teks (1 with a TB squad, 1 with midfield/TV) and Zandrekh, but i might be tempted to spend a CP to get the veil on the second capetek (relic SoL is way too good to give up)... If the points are spare i might bring obryn along and blink Zandrekh, obryn and Tesla immortals into tesla/aura range (in cover for the extra troll). Its a nice way to get him into aura range if required, and I can leave the second cape-tek with the immortals until the TV needs to heal. Since relics are spend at the start of the game I think its gives you the option of extra mobility/effectiveness for Zandrekh if the aura negation is worth it (Gman/banners for example)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 10:39:28
Further Musings on things you could do with Zan, Ob + cryp
Lychgurd: If you have a big unit of lychguard heading up your phalanx you could:
Teleport zan and cyptek 9" from enemy then bring Obyron + Lychguard in 3" from the enemy.
Or
If zan happens to get the reroll charge buff, you could put it on the lychguard along with MWBD and teleport them with the cryptek for an 8" reroll charge.
With a monolith you could use 1CP to port Zan to the lith then bring Obyron, the Cryptek and 2 units over to them.
The obvious flaws with these ideas is that they involve monoliths and Lychguard lol.
What I do like about all of this is that while you can do some crazy teleport into peoples faces tricks you don't have to, and you don't have to do it right away. The 3 HQs can sit among a bunch of tesla immortals with the option to jump out right away, or wait until there are less screenin units around.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 11:13:41
I got a question regarding the Tesseract Vault: I heard it comes with a T. C'tan, but can you use the C'tan seperately? Or is it kind of molded into it's 'cage'?
I only just noticed that the Ghostwalk Mantle is not limited to once per game. That's something.
Ooh and something else: The Deceiver could "infiltrate" himself + Zandrekh + another unit then a Veiltek, obyron and 2 other units could join them. So 4 characters and 3 units show up somewhere.
Eg you could have:
Zan Obyron Veiltek Deceiver
2x 10 Telsa Immortals (With +2 to hit from MWBD + Sautekh Strat) 6x Destroyer (With reroll everthing Strat)
Some serious dakka.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 12:15:33
Doctoralex wrote: I got a question regarding the Tesseract Vault: I heard it comes with a T. C'tan, but can you use the C'tan seperately? Or is it kind of molded into it's 'cage'?
You can use him separately and take him off and on the vault model if you are careful. This is mine:
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
Maybe I missed something.
How are some folks having tesla immortals proccing extra hits on 4+ is there a stratagem i'm misreading or something? I get the +1 from MWBD, but whats the second piece? Edit** Is it the Methodical Destruction Strat?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 12:41:21
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
Red Corsair wrote: I really think folks are getting carried away with the guardsmen talk. There a screen, mortars and las guns will not be killing any significant portion of our army. Luckily we have units that pull double duty. DDA, which are all around pretty amazing I'd say. Plus wraiths can either float right past the screen or at worst in a long deployment, dig in with them, then in the next turn move on.
At this point though. I think there needs to be less theory hammer and more play testing. For example I am thinking our best builds won't bother with troops at all. You only need CP's IMHO for reserving destroyers, then using extermination protocols, and maybe 1 CP for the Canoptek advance and charge. I'd say 5-6 CP's is probably fine. Trying to farm CP's just seems to require taking less efficient units which then require more units and CP's to fix so why bother, just take the things that work already IMO.
Of course maybe it will turn out that our troops will pull more weight then we are guessing, but they haven't changed much from the index so I am guessing it's a safe assumption that our troops are still kind of matchup dependent.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. GEQ will not be fielded en mass, besides a few unique (rare) builds. Im not overly scared of them, especially when 50% of tesla immortals shots proc an extra 2 hits and hit on 2+ rr'ing 1's......, 10 Timmortals will put out a prodigious amount of firepower. A vault killing 1/3 of a GEQ blob from a single power alone, yet the 20 s7 tesla that can proc on 5's..... with that same GEQ blob unable to do anything to T7 28w. I dont know everyone else's meta but here on the west coast of Australia its a lot more elite, there have been a few select cases where a horde has done really well, but for the most part huge hordes are dying out due to the large number of things that can mince them.
This is what's misleading about tactica discussions. People who have absolutely zero understanding of the competitive meta are posting sweeping statements about what will or will not be fielded.
So, I'm attending a 5 game GT this weekend with my Imperials, here's a few lists for you to think about (Tournament lists went public two days before the event begins).
I posted only some of the choice lists. Are you still prepared to say Necrons don't need to concern themselves about GEQ? It's one of the most laughable statements I've seen yet. The truth about the tournament game is that you need to prepare against everything, and mostly you can't, and you'd be happy to get some luck with your matchups. This same tournament has multiple triple superheavy lists too, which are quite the polar opposite. My list is an Imperial soup with Astra Militarum, Adeptus Custodes, Dark Angels, Sisters, and Assassins.
Spoiler:
== Battalion Detachment, Imperium ==
HQ1: Celestine (200), 2 Geminae Superia (50), Order of Our Martyred Lady [250]
HQ2: Sammael in Sableclaw (216), Dark Angels [216]
HQ3: Ravenwing Talonmaster (123), Twin Heavy Bolter (17), Twin Assault Cannon (44), Power Sword (4),
Dark Angels [188]
Elite1: Platoon Commander (20), Warlord, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila, Vostroyan [20]
Elite2: Culexus Assassin (85), Officio Assassinorum [85]
Troop1: Scout Squad (55), Dark Angels [55]
Troop2: Scout Squad (55), Dark Angels [55]
Troop3: Scout Squad (55), Dark Angels [55]
Fast1: Seraphim Squad (55), 4 Inferno Pistols (36), Order of Our Martyred Lady [91]
Heavy1: Heavy Weapons Team (18), 3 Mortars (15), Vostroyan [33]
== Supreme Command Detachment, Adeptus Custodes ==
HQ4: Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike (150), Hurricane Bolter (10) [160]
HQ5: Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike (150), Hurricane Bolter (10) [160]
HQ6: Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike (150), Hurricane Bolter (10) [160]
== Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, Astra Militarum, Vostroyan ==
LOW1: Shadowsword (390), 3 Twin Heavy Bolters (42), 2 Lascannons (40), Vostroyan [472]
You can stick your 10 Immortals where the sun doesn't shine with these lists.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 12:56:05
I have no idea why people are suggesting that chaff isn't an issue. It is a huge part of the meta at the moment, so yeah... we really do need to be equipped to deal with it.
I've not really had time to properly digest codex yet. There's some good changes and we are definitely in a better place to where we were, but still think we will struggle a bit to be honest.
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most of those lists have like 2 units that can do some damage, kill the bikes, or the death company, or the oblits and those armies kill like 1 Unit a turn, with all the rest of the shooting. Slaneesh cultists are different.
Also, yeah in a tournament you are going to get a bad matchup, and if we can’t deal with chaff that well then maybe that’s our weakness. A triple superheavy is the other end of the spectrum but again, they don’t win tournaments (at least not around here).
What has been shown are two extreme examples, super hordey and super elite, were in the middle and have tools against everything.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 13:57:36
My comparison was vs 100 guardsmen, but with us getting first turn of shooting due to dropping in / deep strike and killing 30 to begin with.
I am not saying it's a point effective option to kill guard, I am saying that the guard are going to have a lot of trouble killing that many warriors with the buffs we get vs the warriors having little issue killing them back.
If every army had a way to deal with every option out there then the game would be stale, it would be your marines and my warriors and his guard all represent the same thing so why bother. It's these differences that make things great for having different armies that are good at different things.
There are only a few guard players in my meta, but one runs mass infantry and the other mix of infantry and tanks. Myself I will be trying the warrior blob vs the infantry force once the codex is out for real. Maybe it's a waste, maybe not. I think one round of shooting isn't the way to measure a units usefulness, you have to look at the return fire as well, as well as other things like other units that could be used. That's when things get difficult in theory hammer.
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself now. Just put your money where your mouth is and post your list. There's some brutally top tier lists there that nearly cannot lose more than marginally like the Poxwalkers, and you come off here from your non-competitive local store meta saying your Space Marines would 20-0 them all. Hilarious really. This is what message boards are good for. Comedy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/15 14:02:23
Klowny wrote: Those lists perform well in your meta?
Yes I agree Necrons would struggle against that but holy hell my marines would 20-0 every. Single. One of them. Really odd you have such a hordey spam meta.
Im glad I don’t have to worry about that
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most of those lists have like 2 units that can do some damage, kill the bikes, or the death company, or the oblits and those armies kill like 1 Unit a turn, with all the rest of the shooting. Slaneesh cultists are different.
Also, yeah in a tournament you are going to get a bad matchup, and if we can’t deal with chaff that well then maybe that’s our weakness. A triple superheavy is the other end of the spectrum but again, they don’t win tournaments (at least not around here).
What has been shown are two extreme examples, super hordey and super elite, were in the middle and have tools against everything.
those bikes have character protection. The death company will deep strike and have 3d6 charge. the oblits will also deep strike and poxwalkers will fill the board, taking all the objectives (that's a poxwalker apocolypse list. For every cultist you kill, they get a poxwalker, and the poxwalkers are untargetable.) and the poxwalkers will become a threat with all those character buffs.
You're dismissing these lists as if they're easy because you personally haven't seen them win anything. But they're a real threat.
If every army had a way to deal with every option out there then the game would be stale, it would be your marines and my warriors and his guard all represent the same thing so why bother. It's these differences that make things great for having different armies that are good at different things.
There are only a few guard players in my meta, but one runs mass infantry and the other mix of infantry and tanks. Myself I will be trying the warrior blob vs the infantry force once the codex is out for real. Maybe it's a waste, maybe not. I think one round of shooting isn't the way to measure a units usefulness, you have to look at the return fire as well, as well as other things like other units that could be used. That's when things get difficult in theory hammer.
Yeah, I agree, hard to know exactly how things will perform until you get them on the table. You should let us know how your warriors work out when the time comes.
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