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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.

Good lord...Every ironhands army is going to have 30 primaris as troops. Who can move and shoot a stalker with reroll 1's at AP-3 flat 2 damage. That is not easy to dislodge off objectives.


My comment was directed at the list that was posted.

15 troops and 4 flyers. That thing is too easily outplayed on objectives, but as i was reminded he probably meant that list for ITC so... well not my problem.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





AngryAngel80 wrote:
We are probably just over reacting because the flesh is weak


Did someone call?
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
We are probably just over reacting because the flesh is weak


Did someone call?


Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.

Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/16 08:57:15


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Not Online!!! wrote:
 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
We are probably just over reacting because the flesh is weak


Did someone call?


Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.


I told you you shoulda kept a closer eye on that racoon

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Waaaghpower wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.

Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.


Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull
but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.


Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?

In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.


Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! 780029 10571910 wrote:
Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.

Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.

that is sad. My grandfather lost his leg, and couldn't walk, by the time they got a prostesis for him, he lost his other leg, and could move out of bad without help, and before his accident he was a huge guy 190cm tall, no way my gran could take care of him. I hope you will get yours in time.
   
Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





Karol wrote:
Not Online!!! 780029 10571910 wrote:
Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.

Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.

that is sad. My grandfather lost his leg, and couldn't walk, by the time they got a prostesis for him, he lost his other leg, and could move out of bad without help, and before his accident he was a huge guy 190cm tall, no way my gran could take care of him. I hope you will get yours in time.

Should

uh

Should someone tell him?
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Gadzilla666 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.

Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.


Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull
but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.


Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?

In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.


Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.


SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




United Kingdom

BrianDavion wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.


SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)


If you do include FW there's also Bray'arth Ashmantle for the Salamanders, and Eldar have the Wraithseer. Making Ork Meka Dreads Characters could be interesting.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

BrianDavion wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.

Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.


Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull
but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.


Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?

In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.


Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.


SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)


Wriath Lord characters are already in the lore
If the Chaos Hellbrute makes no sense - how does McMurder the Murder Dreadnought from Murder world.......gods that is such a awful part of the WolfWolfdex


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




BrianDavion wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.

Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
happy_inquisitor wrote:
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.

If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.

Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.

While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.


Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull
but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.


Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?

In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.


Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.


SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)

Yes hellbrutes are nuts but contemptors leviathans etc aren't. That's why they have better ballistic skills and don't have the crazed rule and can't use the fire frenzy strategem. Those older models are generally given to important or skilled heretics. Example malcharion from the night lords novels.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.

The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.

Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?

Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.

And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.

Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?


And for the longest time the meta has seen 4++ knights, right?

This guy plus a couple tanks = knight cost plus. It's the -1 damage plus the repairs that's the real problem.

   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 An Actual Englishman wrote:
...Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?

Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right...


Autocannon? Butcher cannon? Krak missile? Battle cannon? Avenger gatling cannon/Endless Fury? Heavy burst cannon? Armiger autocannons? Stormspear rockets? Missile pods? Reaper launchers? Impaler cannon? Venom cannon? Deffguns?

The way the math works out there are diminishing returns for better AP, so the most cost-effective anti-armour tends to be high Strength/medium damage and come in great volume. Any AP past -2 is pretty incidental.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/16 14:42:52


Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wouldn't call it "Incidental" since a weapon with AP -4 is still at a +50% damage against a 3+ save compared to an AP-2, but surely it is less important than the difference between AP -2 and AP0 against the same target which is a +100% damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/16 15:01:04


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Potential Sallies leak.

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/4150

The hands that burn sounds fairly bonkers (assuming melee only).

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Its a melee self buff for a Libby. It'll be fun, but wont do much.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Karol wrote:
Not Online!!! 780029 10571910 wrote:
Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.

Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.

that is sad. My grandfather lost his leg, and couldn't walk, by the time they got a prostesis for him, he lost his other leg, and could move out of bad without help, and before his accident he was a huge guy 190cm tall, no way my gran could take care of him. I hope you will get yours in time.


mate, it was a joke on this statement and user that is is also a parody:

Not Online!!! wrote:
 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
We are probably just over reacting because the flesh is weak


Did someone call?


Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.

Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.


on a side note, sinde i am obligatory insured because switzerland, i would promptly get one.

And considering how high the bloddy payments have risen i bloody well would expect it.

Also i am sorry for your gramps.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/16 18:05:25


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
BrianDavion wrote:
30 intercessors is a fair bit of points, I suspect a number of these lists will toss in only 15. the bare minimum. if you're putting 30 on the table you're investing a LOT into infantry.
They are great though. For 85 points you get a unit that can threaten anything not t8 on the table with 36" range and the ability to move and shoot. You are taking 2 battalions anyways because you pretty much need to run 4 HQ's for this comp. The cost is about the same a tactical with a heavy weapon and is way more durable. I could see maybe some infiltrators if you could squeeze them in. Scouts are straight garbage. You don't really need to worry about deep strike charges when you have 30 intercessors to screen anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.

10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).

I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.


It's crazy easy to get 10 Razors into the auras. Two rows of 5 will do it, no problem. Turn 1 cover doesn't help you, as Devastator Doctrine is in effect and all the heavies get an additional -1 AP already. Not to mention 10 Razors is only a bit over half the points of the army. There's room for more guns in the list. Also, it's hard AF to effectively hide flyers. If Repulsors aren't yet visible, just start knocking out the planes.

It's not about perfect accuracy in terms of what will happen, nor is it even about the specific list, it's just a starting place to build a counter around. Like the Castellan, I think the path to victory will be a combination of threats to Castellan and/or playing around it. It's "Have I dealt with super-tough units before?" and the answer is "Yes." The new Codex also give me more options than I had previously, as well.
Ironhands do this even better because all the razors are -1 damage with a 5++ (maybe only 8 will fit). Yes - the executioner is overcosted but when you can make it really hard to kill and repair it 6 a turn it will probably still be more preferable.

Max razors loses to basically every competitive army though because you touch them and they are useless.


Well that's the thing, I play Ultramarines, which makes the 'touched Razorback' much less of an issue. So maybe Iron Hands really don't do it better.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Sterling191 wrote:
Its a melee self buff for a Libby. It'll be fun, but wont do much.


That makes more sense - thanks.

   
 
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