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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
better than nothing
Is it? 'Cause this new Kill Team seems to be less "your dudes" and more "these dudes".

Kill Team 2.0 - 'A better wheel!'

My bar is very low, I can be optimistic at the least we can get some effort in. and I don’t think currently it’s too bad, even if mechanically game wise you can do weird load outs, there are reasons from a My Dudes perspective that they shouldn’t be.

I also think if GW are thinking about it, it adds way more openings for elites. Since they could add an elites slot for a game without the wonky ness.
   
Made in nl
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Segmentum Solar

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
better than nothing
Is it? 'Cause this new Kill Team seems to be less "your dudes" and more "these dudes".

Kill Team 2.0 - 'A better wheel!'

I’m all for “my dudes”, but for me that’s mostly a modelling thing anyway. You may seem to have more choice in current Kill Team but most of that seems illusory to me as everyone was still gravitating towards the same types of lists for most Kill Teams (max out on Gunners, etc.) So while you may have more fixed loadouts per model (though we’ve hardly seen all types of teams so far, and Guard were never particularly customizable anyway), you can still put a lot of personality in your team by choice of specialists and of course in how you model those. But to each his own.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Actually...this new system is interesting for making your own options. You don't have to bother about a fake point cost to give an illusion of balance, you just need to create a new specialist profile. Take the shotgun weapon from Genestealer Cult and switch it with whatever weapon a Guardsman has. And done, new weapon options !

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 09:58:48


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I'm actually worried that this approach makes elites harder to implement.
Presumably they'll have to be your own standalone Fireteams.

So, for marines, you can't have a group of power armour led by a Terminator spearhead, it's 100% Terminator or 0%.

Similarly, if you find Elites are too expensive to field in games of Killteam, you can't just add 50% more points to give yourself more breathing room.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'm actually worried that this approach makes elites harder to implement.
Presumably they'll have to be your own standalone Fireteams.


Since they play about the number of Fireteam detachments you can take, I bet when the "Elite" expansion will come or whatever, they'll play about that number.

Like they'll upgrade the number of "normal" detachments you can take and they can say "instead of two normal detachment, you can take one Elite Fireteam detachment" or just allow everyone to take an Elite detachment in addition to the normal ones for "Elite scenarios".

Something like that. At least, that's what I'll do if I want to keep using the current system.

Or maybe it'll be the next edition of Kill Team with a new box in D3+1 years.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



South East London

For those speculating about whether basic troopers are worth having, I think their group activation and skills tree will definitely be interesting.

It looks like after a few games they definitely could be worth having in your team.


find duplicates online

"Dig in and wait for Winter" 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Problems: some factions already start as limited to a single detachment. It's hard to go down from 1.

Also, not all elites are created equal. Not even by a long shot. Some are barely worthy of being troops (flayed ones), others were troops not so long ago (SM scouts).

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:
Problems: some factions already start as limited to a single detachment. It's hard to go down from 1.

Also, not all elites are created equal. Not even by a long shot. Some are barely worthy of being troops (flayed ones), others were troops not so long ago (SM scouts).


Who says they will be all equals ? I'm just talking about the number of Fireteams, not models.

Anyway, we'll know more when GW will make the extension for them. If they do it.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I mean Elites in the Killteam sense, which was specifically stuff like Terminators or Crisis suits.

You're not wrong about them being unequal though but I think it'd be easy enough to balance with numbers.

But that runs into the same problem as the normal troops list building. They're self-contained units that are balanced against other self-contained units, but that gives you no flexibility to mix and match.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kirotheavenger wrote:

But that runs into the same problem as the normal troops list building. They're self-contained units that are balanced against other self-contained units, but that gives you no flexibility to mix and match.


Yes. They're specific lists per faction. Which doesn't really change from the first Kill Team, since it was the same principle.

We'll care about mix and match when it will actually matter if / when GW add new units in the future. For now, with what we have (meaning, very specific units from 40k like in "base" Kill Team)...there isn't much to mix and match anyway.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I wonder how Space Marines are going to do it. They have 10(!) models available for Killteam, how many types of Fireteam is that going to be?
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'm actually worried that this approach makes elites harder to implement.
Presumably they'll have to be your own standalone Fireteams.

So, for marines, you can't have a group of power armour led by a Terminator spearhead, it's 100% Terminator or 0%.

Similarly, if you find Elites are too expensive to field in games of Killteam, you can't just add 50% more points to give yourself more breathing room.

Why? Presumably SM have the same fire team approach as others, I don't see why one fire team can't be '3 marines' and other '1 terminator'. If anything, this system will make elites look like elites because now you can balance that 1 terminator by making him appropriately scary unlike stupid 40K system when even smallest orkstode runt now makes his stats look pathetic in comparison.

And if every kill team has 2 fire teams, you can absolutely add 50% points by running 3 fire teams instead of 2. Yes, GW can still screw this up in implementation but the foundation looks absolutely solid for now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
better than nothing
Is it? 'Cause this new Kill Team seems to be less "your dudes" and more "these dudes".

Kill Team 2.0 - 'A better wheel!'

Yup, 20+ diverse, converted minis with differing wargear that actually are fluffy are less 'your dudes' than 12 copy paste identical plasma clones, eh?

Let me guess, it's side effect of smoking whatever makes you see new, dynamic posed minis being somehow more identical to each other than totally unique ""multipose"" rigid copy pasters with their slightly rotated head or arm making you double down on being wrong again?
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







 Irbis wrote:
[
Why? Presumably SM have the same fire team approach as others, I don't see why one fire team can't be '3 marines' and other '1 terminator'. If anything, this system will make elites look like elites because now you can balance that 1 terminator by making him appropriately scary unlike stupid 40K system when even smallest orkstode runt now makes his stats look pathetic in comparison.

And if every kill team has 2 fire teams, you can absolutely add 50% points by running 3 fire teams instead of 2. Yes, GW can still screw this up in implementation but the foundation looks absolutely solid for now.


Those of us who can read already know SM only field 1 fire team. So that has two ways it can go: either they have the most flexible team building rules that make complete horse gak out of all the rest, or you gonna be fielding just 1 type of marine at a time.

Posters on ignore list: 34

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator



Dayton, OH

So we add an "Elite Fire Team" slot that Elites games open up. So normal Fire Team allowances for normal games, and normal Fire Team allowances plus 1 Elite Fire Team for Elite games.

2 Terminators per Elite FT, or 5 Seraphim, 3 or 4 Vanguard Vets? A Lictor or two... It's all fine. You might even be able to make an Elite FT swappable with a normal FT (with exclusions for factions that are normally 1 FT per Kill Team? Maybe you offer alternate Elite versions of their normal FTs instead) for people who want to play Elite-level games with line troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/23/create-kill-teams-for-your-faction-of-choice-with-the-kill-team-compendium/

Example datacards for some other factions, showing off a range of power level stuff. Interesting, if hardly enough to sate our inquisitive and eager minds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 13:11:36


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Kaffis wrote:
So we add an "Elite Fire Team" slot that Elites games open up. So normal Fire Team allowances for normal games, and normal Fire Team allowances plus 1 Elite Fire Team for Elite games.

If Elite Fireteams aren't the equal of regular fireteams (which they can't be since Fireteams are either 100% or 50% of a team) then you lock people out of all elite Killteams.

It seems there's a consistent 3-5 attacks for stuff.
That tells us about Custodes, yup they're going to vulnerable to melee. Urggh.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 13:22:24


 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator



Dayton, OH

Ooh, check out the Storm Shield on the Custodes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Kaffis wrote:
So we add an "Elite Fire Team" slot that Elites games open up. So normal Fire Team allowances for normal games, and normal Fire Team allowances plus 1 Elite Fire Team for Elite games.

If Elite Fireteams aren't the equal of regular fireteams (which they can't be since Fireteams are either 100% or 50% of a team) then you lock people out of all elite Killteams.

It seems there's a consistent 3-5 attacks for stuff.
That tells us about Custodes, yup they're going to vulnerable to melee. Urggh.

I said that for 1-FT factions, you can offer stripped down (and customized up?) versions of their normal FTs as alternative Elite FTs, if adding an Elite slot is the way they go.

Also, 5 dice at 2+, and the opportunity to parry two hits per die spent doesn't sound criminally vulnerable to melee to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 13:27:31


 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





We at GW know how much you love to buy our Product, so now you can buy not only the rulebook but also the rules for your Kill-Teams as two separate purchases. Wow!

Let's see what excuse the white knights come up with this time. "B-but in 40k you have to buy the core rules and codex separately anyway, y-you're already doing this!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 13:37:32


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

Forget about the storm shield, look at the wound count.

I'm less certain that GA is "Group Activation" though. Poxwalkers are GA 2 - you would expect a zombie horde to have more GA than a unit of guardsmen, surely? Likewise DA and Custodes are both GA1. I dunno just seems weird.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

A poxwalker and a Guardsman are roughly equal, 8 Poxwalkers to a Fireteam and 7 Guardsmen.

Group Activation seems to be more a bonus for 'hordes' than actually representing coordinated group action.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







Regarding CC defence, compared to armour save, with the Lethal 5+ on both possible CC weapons thingy means that it will be critting more frequently, which favours both defence and attack.

I think there are enough mechanisms in there to get the feel for well armoured dudes, even without a specific armour save roll. I understand that this will not be the preferred option for some though and could affect enjoyability.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Do we know exactly how parrying works? I thought they only described it in vague terms.

It could be you can only parry a dice equal to the dice you use, rather than attack for attack.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

They said parry is use one of your hits to negate one of your opponents. No other details were noted or implied. You might need the Critical or Two Hits to negate a Critical like for shooting.

I’m getting more and more curious about the rules around GA. They can go a long way to balance out the mook models compared to the specialist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 14:10:01


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 kirotheavenger wrote:
That tells us about Custodes, yup they're going to vulnerable to melee. Urggh.


Did you miss the stormshield rule?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kirotheavenger wrote:
Do we know exactly how parrying works? I thought they only described it in vague terms.

It could be you can only parry a dice equal to the dice you use, rather than attack for attack.


We don't know for sure as the description was quite vague. However, it seems to be that you take turns choosing what to do with each success, starting with the attacker. So I think it's possible for both players to decide to go full-on offence and allocate all their successes to doing damage, or vice versa. I assume any defensive use of your dice removes the corresponding dice form the opponent's pool, so a Storm Shield would remove two for each success you choose to use defensively, which would have some weird knock-on effect on the value of that model's successes.
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Even without Stormshields, Custodes are going to be very difficult to land a hit on in Melee - they have 5 2+ dice to use as parries if needs be.

Interesting way to run something like a Crisis suit though - give it a low (ish) number of attacks but give it the equivalent rule to the storm shield - it won't hit often, but the hits it does roll can be used as parries. Opens up the "heavy armour but can't do much damage in CC" option.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



South East London

What I found interesting was that you can run Pox Walkers with Death Guard Marines? Even though marines can normally only run 1 Fire Team?

So effectively, you get the 8 Pox Walkers for free?

The Pox Walkers can never gain advances by the looks of it and struggle with mission objectives but look effective as meat shields.

Also interesting that most line troopers only seem to be able to gain the "shooting" and "move?" advances but Custodes get all 4. That's gonna make for nice, varied members for them.

"Dig in and wait for Winter" 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Deathguard are a separate faction, they get 2 fireteams. I assume their regular fireteam is half the size though.
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Yeah, I would guess that a Death Guard fireteam has 3 members, while Marines will have 5 or 6.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







I presume that reference to "marines" means Imperial marines. Death Guard faction may well get 2 fire teams, allowing 2 death guard fire teams of 3 each, or a mixture of plaguemarines and poxwalkers. [bah, ninjad ]

That would indicate a single marine fire team will get 6 or 7 guys. In KT 1, you could smoosh together quite a wide range of different infantry types from scouts up to terminators. If they follow the Guard and Ork example, then that customisability in a single fireteam is at risk and there will be a gazillion different fireteam options, but limited interoperability. i.e. you can take an intercessor fireteam, but not a fireteam that mixes scouts, intercessors, reivers. Admech and Necrons are also potentially at risk, although they might have more than 1 fireteam to counter that issue, but even then necrons have quite a lot of infantry squad types that previously could be smooshed in together, so even having 2 fireteams might not be enough for them to get the same range.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 15:25:58


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United Kingdom



Oops, I was wrong, just re-read it !

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 15:27:44


 
   
 
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