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Personal observations playing with BL:

10 man terminator with mark of damnation, mark of slannesh and psychic support = fair. It held the center of the board and most opponents have tried once and then avoided. I run them with 2 meltas and three fists (one on champ). I can't really fault them. They go to the objective and kill pretty much anything that comes near or that they crash against.

Possessed are OH-kay but really struggle against AOC or -1 damage units. They're chaff clearers or poor mid-range hero assassins.

Lord Discordant is everything everyone has said i.e Despicable.

I actually found some decent mileage in a Khorneate daemon prince with indomitable and the khorne daemon weapon. Running around with damage 3+D3, wings and halving damage really makes him a vehicle/elite infantry/character murder machine and with a Disco Lord or Abaddon on the board, he often gets ignored as a lesser threat.

Obliterators are just not THAT great any longer. Too short a range, not reliable enough with the number of shots and not being core/markable. Give them a range extension maybe? Or make them core?

Legionnaires are fine, I can actually feel a difference between them and cultists now.

Master of Possessions powers are incredible but they have to go off otherwise his use is somewhat moot...

Dark Apostle is too expensive for one prayer.

Venomcrawlers are annoying as you want them back to support psykers but they don't half move quickly. They're a bit like Magnus in that their profiles etc are meant to be up close but they offer back field support for that annoying mixed/matched roll.

I do enjoy the exploding 6's but something to extend the heavy weapons exploding would be useful as guns on the oblits or havocs etc are not always even in range to utilise it turn 1.

So after a few more games here are some more thoughts.....

As to legionaries I think the best way to run them is 5 man with either the tome, or MoK with the champ with a good weapon. Personally, I would take chain swords on my tome unit as they are much more useful then a few bolter shots. As for MoS over MoK, I have been playing Word Bearers, so with the re-roll it kind of moots the +1 and I would rather have the +1S and -1ap. Also don't sleep on the chainsword attacks from the MoK legionaries as my squad of five took down a Custodies bike caption in one round. I think for a basic troop choice these guys are pretty great. I plan on running 5 with MoK, 5 with the tome, and one squad of Cultists to hold the back line and screen for the foreseeable future.

I disagree with the above post on Possessed. In my experience they are absolute blenders. I run 9 with the rune, so they are really hard to kill with the natural T5. Also since I play Word Bearers I bring the WL trait that gives a daemonkin unit +1S and -1ap which helps mitigate the AoC issue. Also I use the spell from the Master of Possession for +1 to wound on their target unit, which generally means wounding on 2's, and again Word Bearers have a strat to re-roll the wounds if I like. Yes -1 damage can be rough on them, but realistically, -1 damage is going to hurt most of our units anyway, and for chosen or terminators (whose d1) the possessed still have more attacks at the same ap with the WL trait. Maybe because I use Word Bearers that I have this impression, but I think of the three elite melee squads (chose, terminators, possessed) they are the best.

Also don't sleep on warptalons. They are really good a putting down enemy units with only 5 man squad. They have been my MVPs in the last two games scoring many VPs with actions, swooping onto objectives, and then being able to murder all but the best enemy units. For only 140 points they are a great utility.

Agreed with oblitorators, they are not great, I only ever use the middle profile and I only bring them really because I like the models. Competitively I think they can be dropped.

The venom crawlers are a great screen for the lord discordant or daemon prince as they move just as fast and are cheap that you don't care if they die. Plus the can be pretty dangerous to characters or small units. I don't even remember the +1 to cast as I never really use them in that role.

I still love my landraider, the T9 made a difference 4 times in my last game. So many armies rely on S8 or S9 for AT, that the T9 is just an issue for them. I think if you are going heavy support I would take the landraider over the obliterators in a competitive list.

The rest is all the same, lord discordant is great, master of possession is must take, terminators are terminators.

Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.

Perhaps I just got unlucky with them then!

Semper wrote:
Perhaps I just got unlucky with them then!

Doesn't have to be terribly unlucky, just make sure you're using the Psyker support and you'll be fine. They don't require a lot of babysitting so that's nice.

Semper wrote:
Personal observations playing with BL:

10 man terminator with mark of damnation, mark of slannesh and psychic support = fair. It held the center of the board and most opponents have tried once and then avoided. I run them with 2 meltas and three fists (one on champ). I can't really fault them. They go to the objective and kill pretty much anything that comes near or that they crash against.

Possessed are OH-kay but really struggle against AOC or -1 damage units. They're chaff clearers or poor mid-range hero assassins.

Lord Discordant is everything everyone has said i.e Despicable.

I actually found some decent mileage in a Khorneate daemon prince with indomitable and the khorne daemon weapon. Running around with damage 3+D3, wings and halving damage really makes him a vehicle/elite infantry/character murder machine and with a Disco Lord or Abaddon on the board, he often gets ignored as a lesser threat.

Obliterators are just not THAT great any longer. Too short a range, not reliable enough with the number of shots and not being core/markable. Give them a range extension maybe? Or make them core?

Legionnaires are fine, I can actually feel a difference between them and cultists now.

Master of Possessions powers are incredible but they have to go off otherwise his use is somewhat moot...

Dark Apostle is too expensive for one prayer.

Venomcrawlers are annoying as you want them back to support psykers but they don't half move quickly. They're a bit like Magnus in that their profiles etc are meant to be up close but they offer back field support for that annoying mixed/matched roll.

I do enjoy the exploding 6's but something to extend the heavy weapons exploding would be useful as guns on the oblits or havocs etc are not always even in range to utilise it turn 1.

Yeah, I concur with all the observations you said. Same on my end as well.

About possessed, I don't know if its because I have run mine as a 5 man unit, but they haven't done much for me in the games I have played. Maybe people are too scared of them. But they always attract all the attention and then they die. lol Perhaps I need to try them out as a ten man squad. The issue though, is I don't have 10 possessed models. So yeah, just like you, I haven't found possessed super good or anything.

About Venomcrawlers, I find that having one in the backfield makes for not just a good buffer for psykers with its +1 to cast aura, it also makes a good countercharge unit. So, instead of throwing it out on turn 1 up the board to die, I find greater success keeping it safely in the back, either out of range of scary guns or behind obscuring. Its shooting is average only anyway (6 shots of AP2), so I don't sweat it even if it doesn't get to shoot anything on turn 1 or 2. Its a great counter charge unit when people try and threaten my backfield, or just to shore up one flank if it is coming under heavy pressure.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.

Literally had that match up three times and they bounced off the PM every time. Neither unit had any psychic support as my MOP was too busy supporting other units (Oblits and termies) and his sorcerer was supporting Mortarion. I've found they are solid against basic marines, chaff, light vehicles etc but for me they have just struggled against those tougher or elite units. They do have their uses it's just they have not been very effective for me (most of my games have been against DG so far though...)

On other notes...

I need to try the baleflame tome. I like the idea of having the back field legionnaire squad having one to pass out supporting spells or having a smite in their pocket.

I'll give the VC a go as a screen and back field protector, though in terms of the former my LD has had no general problems. The only time he has died is if I got very unluck with a charge roll or I purposefully put him in harms way in friendly games for a bit of fun.

About this Stratagem:
---
RELENTLESS DEVASTATION
Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase, when a TRAITORIS ASTARTES INFANTRY unit (excluding CULTISTS units) from your army makes a Normal Move or Advances. Until the end of your Shooting phase, provided that unit does not move again, it is considered to have Remained Stationary.
---
If a unit advances and is affected by this, can they it an Action?

No.

RULES THAT COUNT AS REMAINING STATIONARY
Some rules allow a unit to count as having Remained Stationary, or count as if it had not moved, even if that unit has moved during its Movement phase. The following rules apply to these type of rules:
.
.
.
.
9. Even if a unit is subject to such a rule, it cannot start an action if it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, and any action that it is currently performing but has yet to complete will still fail if that unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, performs a Heroic Intervention or declares a charge.

Thanks

Semper wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.

Literally had that match up three times and they bounced off the PM every time. Neither unit had any psychic support as my MOP was too busy supporting other units (Oblits and termies) and his sorcerer was supporting Mortarion. I've found they are solid against basic marines, chaff, light vehicles etc but for me they have just struggled against those tougher or elite units. They do have their uses it's just they have not been very effective for me (most of my games have been against DG so far though...)

On other notes...

I need to try the baleflame tome. I like the idea of having the back field legionnaire squad having one to pass out supporting spells or having a smite in their pocket.

I'll give the VC a go as a screen and back field protector, though in terms of the former my LD has had no general problems. The only time he has died is if I got very unluck with a charge roll or I purposefully put him in harms way in friendly games for a bit of fun.

Well Plague Marines are probably the worst target for Possessed and if you didn't buff them and only had 5 I am not surprised that they bounced. I use mine as my main anchor unit, 9 with the rune. I have not fought DG with them, but so far they put the hurt on Custodies, marines, orks, and GK. Every time they fought they whooped the other unit. However, if you are playing a lot of DG then they may not be the best, especially if you are not buffing them.

5 Legionaries with the tome is great. Probably a must take troop choice.

On another note, I was thinking of dropping two obliterators which would be exactly 180 points to allow me to bring a DP in my final HQ slot. I was thinking a Slannessh DP with the daemon weapon so he is an absolute blender. So my main strike force would be the two venom crawlers screening (maybe with the possessed depending on opponent) with the Lord Discordant with the undivided Daemon Weapon, and the Slannessh DP with his daemon weapon, and by turn 2 both are in the enemy lines. I don't think there is any rule prevent me from taking two daemon weapons as long as they are different (correct me if I am wrong). Thoughts?

I think dropping going mostly full melee is an option. Our ranged anti-tank isn't fantastic, and melee is obviously our strength in this codex. However, it restricts our playstyle somewhat. Having non-optimal options for ranged is different from going full melee and having none at all.

I would like to bring up one more point. In this new Nephilim meta, it seems easier to score a strong primary score. Even the player who is more conservative and holds 2 objectives can still get a high primary if he scores well in bonus primary points, or just go for the 12 points score on turns 4/5. So its often the secondaries that determine the win/loss.

We really need to plan to do well in secondaries. Also, given our secondaries are not as high scoring or easily scored as other factions, we need to plan our lists and strategy to be able to actively to disrupt other people from scoring their secondaries. Because all things equal, if both sides play conservative, then we will usually lose out because our secondaries are worse.

This means that it isn't enough that our lists hold the center objective. Ideally, we can deliver a strong blow at our opponent on their objectives.

World bearers might be able to play a more passive game, if they take the world bearers secondary and warp ritual and just hold the center. But all the other legions can't really use this strategy.

Also, a more passive game tends to be detrimental to us because our melee is our strong point. So, we want to be the one charging rather than sitting on a point and waiting to get charged. In melee, usually the one getting charged is at a disadvantage unless you are creations of bile or have a fights last like Emperor's children.

One problem I see with this. Especially if we skew more towards melee than ranged, is that during deployment, it may be quite easy to see where we intend to apply a lot of pressure. Its just not so easy for melee centric armies to deploy heavily on one flank, and then suddenly switch to the other if our opponent deploys himself accordingly in reaction. This is where ranged or deep strike comes in. Because even if our opponent counter deploys away from our more heavily weighted flank, we can still deep strike in units in the other flank. Although, deep strike can also be screened against. So, its not a full proof solution. But at least you are more or less guaranteed to deep strike in units where you want to apply pressure on.

The other way is to use units that are very mobile and fast. Or use stuff like warptime, veilbreaker plate, alpha legion warlord trait redeploy.

I keep hearing mention of new Nephilim rules and finally went on wahapedia to see exactly what's being talked about. I did not realize you now have to pay CP for warlord traits and relics, and that we have half as much CP to use now. It sounds like everyone is still taking warlord traits and relics, though. Am I missing something?

Hello all,

Looking at starting CSM after a long time away form the game.

What is everyone's experience/recommendations with/for vehicles?

I am tempted to go pure infantry and have no vehicles at all, have a 1500 list with about 117ish wounds on the table between infantry, oblits and hqs. but would I be missing out on strong units if I did this?

The land raider appeals and it is also tempting to run 2 of them along side terminators to try and create a assault list but having read a lot of negativity about vehicles in this addition, especially marine vehicles in general, it seemed it might be a good idea to just leave them behind.

Also, how essential is it to have a blender hq unit? A lot of lists I think about start with Abaddon as he is so good now and if not then some kind of tooled up lord or DP. But along side the needed MoP and Sorcerer I like to include it gets expensive. Would it be possible to take support characters and then use a kamikaze master of executions to try and deal with other blender hero's?

Appreciate the advice/experiences.

Iggy88 wrote:
I keep hearing mention of new Nephilim rules and finally went on wahapedia to see exactly what's being talked about. I did not realize you now have to pay CP for warlord traits and relics, and that we have half as much CP to use now. It sounds like everyone is still taking warlord traits and relics, though. Am I missing something?

It seems so bizarre to make the initial trait and relic cost something now. Especially CP when CP was already knocked down in the various updates. So now it's like CP hardly exist as you'll have even less to NO CP at the start of a game.

Even at the cost of CP it seems traits and relics are simply too valuable to NOT have. The point of even having a Warlord is to get a trait to suit your list. Not having one is just a blatant nerf not worth skipping.

Iggy88 wrote:
I keep hearing mention of new Nephilim rules and finally went on wahapedia to see exactly what's being talked about. I did not realize you now have to pay CP for warlord traits and relics, and that we have half as much CP to use now. It sounds like everyone is still taking warlord traits and relics, though. Am I missing something?

Nephilim isn't being highly praised, so honestly I'd not worry too much about the restrictions being enacted much longer even in the competitive scene

I’ve honestly never really liked the CP/stratagem addition to the game, but I’ve loved the warlord traits and relics as freebies that can be taken more times for CP. It forced everyone to take at least something, so everyone’s lists had cool special rules to help tailor their build.

I’ve been making my 1k list thinking I had 6 CP and a free warlord trait and relic. So, if I use Nephilim rules and want to put the black rune on my possessed, I’m starting with 0 CP. I did notice all of the missions gave you 1CP at the start of each player turn and I actually do like that. Getting CP each turn prevents people from dumping a bunch on a turn to push really hard, but does offer the possibility to save it for a few turns into the game. I don’t think I’d mind the half CP and getting CP each turn if I didn’t have to spend 2 CP on the warlord trait and relic.

This makes what I read in earlier pages make more sense when people were saying now to use a stratagem it really needs to be impactful, like destroying a unit or receiving VP.

Khanax wrote:
Hello all,

Looking at starting CSM after a long time away form the game.

What is everyone's experience/recommendations with/for vehicles?

I am tempted to go pure infantry and have no vehicles at all, have a 1500 list with about 117ish wounds on the table between infantry, oblits and hqs. but would I be missing out on strong units if I did this?

The land raider appeals and it is also tempting to run 2 of them along side terminators to try and create a assault list but having read a lot of negativity about vehicles in this addition, especially marine vehicles in general, it seemed it might be a good idea to just leave them behind.

Also, how essential is it to have a blender hq unit? A lot of lists I think about start with Abaddon as he is so good now and if not then some kind of tooled up lord or DP. But along side the needed MoP and Sorcerer I like to include it gets expensive. Would it be possible to take support characters and then use a kamikaze master of executions to try and deal with other blender hero's?

Appreciate the advice/experiences.

Its fine to go with no vehicles. You might give up more "no prisoners" VP, but in the end, they probably need to wipe out your whole army to max that. And CSM are pretty tough now. A MOE is super cheap at 65 points, and it doesn't take up a HQ slot, so if you want to get a MOE, just go for it. 1500 points doesn't leave you so much to play with. Abaddon alone will take up 20% of that budget if you run him. So its perfectly fine if you want to use someone else instead of Abaddon in a 1500 points game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iggy88 wrote:
I’ve honestly never really liked the CP/stratagem addition to the game, but I’ve loved the warlord traits and relics as freebies that can be taken more times for CP. It forced everyone to take at least something, so everyone’s lists had cool special rules to help tailor their build.

I’ve been making my 1k list thinking I had 6 CP and a free warlord trait and relic. So, if I use Nephilim rules and want to put the black rune on my possessed, I’m starting with 0 CP. I did notice all of the missions gave you 1CP at the start of each player turn and I actually do like that. Getting CP each turn prevents people from dumping a bunch on a turn to push really hard, but does offer the possibility to save it for a few turns into the game. I don’t think I’d mind the half CP and getting CP each turn if I didn’t have to spend 2 CP on the warlord trait and relic.

This makes what I read in earlier pages make more sense when people were saying now to use a stratagem it really needs to be impactful, like destroying a unit or receiving VP.

Yes. However, actually you still get a fair amount of CP over the whole game because now you get 1 CP at the start of your opponent's turn, and then 1 CP at the start of your turn. So, some people use 5 CP on relics and warlord traits and run with 1CP. Even if their opponent starts first, at the start of their opponent's turn they gain a CP to go up to 2CP. That's enough for an interrupt or two defensive strategems.

Also, Turn 1 usually doesn't involve much use of CP since both sides are moving for position. So, its possible you don't use any CP on turn 1 at all, in which case you will have 4CP at start of turn 2 (if you started with 1CP).

Eldenfirefly wrote:


Its fine to go with no vehicles. You might give up more "no prisoners" VP, but in the end, they probably need to wipe out your whole army to max that. And CSM are pretty tough now. A MOE is super cheap at 65 points, and it doesn't take up a HQ slot, so if you want to get a MOE, just go for it. 1500 points doesn't leave you so much to play with. Abaddon alone will take up 20% of that budget if you run him. So its perfectly fine if you want to use someone else instead of Abaddon in a 1500 points game.

Thank youf or the reply. Yes I should have clarified that I was looking at Abaddon for 2k games as obviously for 1500 that is a bit steep. But it was more over whether it was necessary to have a big bad killing machine rather than support and more streamlined characters like the MoE.

Good to know about not taking vehicles, the real dream is finding a way for legionaries to contribute significantly and not just be a tax or always run in the same set up.

Can people review a list I made?
Some of the choices are just what I own, but I’d still like critique.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/806462.page;jsessionid=8D1B10C57671FE2EA308CBB9CF367644

Yesterday I played first game with the new codex... With Abby and a 10 atrong termi block tanking an army of knights fire and being deadly in CC.

I lost due to bad objective and strat play, but was happy with my list. Love the new codex.

Khanax wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:


Its fine to go with no vehicles. You might give up more "no prisoners" VP, but in the end, they probably need to wipe out your whole army to max that. And CSM are pretty tough now. A MOE is super cheap at 65 points, and it doesn't take up a HQ slot, so if you want to get a MOE, just go for it. 1500 points doesn't leave you so much to play with. Abaddon alone will take up 20% of that budget if you run him. So its perfectly fine if you want to use someone else instead of Abaddon in a 1500 points game.

Thank youf or the reply. Yes I should have clarified that I was looking at Abaddon for 2k games as obviously for 1500 that is a bit steep. But it was more over whether it was necessary to have a big bad killing machine rather than support and more streamlined characters like the MoE.

Good to know about not taking vehicles, the real dream is finding a way for legionaries to contribute significantly and not just be a tax or always run in the same set up.

I feel like Legionaries aren't too hard of a tax. I've been looking into trying them in MSU with Tome, chainswords and Heavy Chainaxe + Demon Blade on the Champion for the extra psychic power + being pretty choppy. Though I'm also running EC as my legion to boot. They COULD go in a Rhino but even two squads running up the board with cover and such they can dish out quite a bit of damage with 3 attacks each, swinging first and not getting any negative to hit with the axe thanks to EC. Can bulk up with Demonic Strength when they get into striking distance and keep themselves hardy with Agonies on their way to their victims.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think dropping going mostly full melee is an option. Our ranged anti-tank isn't fantastic, and melee is obviously our strength in this codex. However, it restricts our playstyle somewhat. Having non-optimal options for ranged is different from going full melee and having none at all.

I would like to bring up one more point. In this new Nephilim meta, it seems easier to score a strong primary score. Even the player who is more conservative and holds 2 objectives can still get a high primary if he scores well in bonus primary points, or just go for the 12 points score on turns 4/5. So its often the secondaries that determine the win/loss.

We really need to plan to do well in secondaries. Also, given our secondaries are not as high scoring or easily scored as other factions, we need to plan our lists and strategy to be able to actively to disrupt other people from scoring their secondaries. Because all things equal, if both sides play conservative, then we will usually lose out because our secondaries are worse.

This means that it isn't enough that our lists hold the center objective. Ideally, we can deliver a strong blow at our opponent on their objectives.

World bearers might be able to play a more passive game, if they take the world bearers secondary and warp ritual and just hold the center. But all the other legions can't really use this strategy.

Also, a more passive game tends to be detrimental to us because our melee is our strong point. So, we want to be the one charging rather than sitting on a point and waiting to get charged. In melee, usually the one getting charged is at a disadvantage unless you are creations of bile or have a fights last like Emperor's children.

One problem I see with this. Especially if we skew more towards melee than ranged, is that during deployment, it may be quite easy to see where we intend to apply a lot of pressure. Its just not so easy for melee centric armies to deploy heavily on one flank, and then suddenly switch to the other if our opponent deploys himself accordingly in reaction. This is where ranged or deep strike comes in. Because even if our opponent counter deploys away from our more heavily weighted flank, we can still deep strike in units in the other flank. Although, deep strike can also be screened against. So, its not a full proof solution. But at least you are more or less guaranteed to deep strike in units where you want to apply pressure on.

The other way is to use units that are very mobile and fast. Or use stuff like warptime, veilbreaker plate, alpha legion warlord trait redeploy.

Words of wisdom. I really like your strategic ruminations. This is what the game revolves around and the tactical decisions on top is mostly flavor imho.

I think there is something to this and the strategic discussion you have on the balance between melee and shooting. I would actually argue that we are not as bad at shooting as advertised. E.g. Helbrutes, Obliterators and Havocs are ok. The 2 former are neat counter chargers allowing them to play 2 roles; anti tank and melee. MoS Helbrutes are toolboxes and Obliterators are also versatile. MoS Havocs are also a great dz anchor. MoS unlocks Murderous Perfection which is Lascannons best friend.

Good note on the extra Primary Bonus points. They definitely make a difference and often plays into our strength to capture objectives by melee.

The Secondary's are horrendous indeed and will most likely be rebalanced further on. That said I think we have options:

Banners - we do have cheap Troops which excel at this. Cultists and the 5 man Legionnaire unit with the Magic Book can afford to do this.
Ritual/Interrogation - Daemon Prince is a unit that want to get up midfield, has the speed for it (Wings) and still can do a Psychic Action. Especially neat with AL adding Clandestine and the free Fall back and Action./Charge.
Behind Enemy Lines - The guy in your YouTube link at first page had a plan for pushing Raptors into opponents dz and then create a bubble big enough for Deep Strike and adding Abbadon or Termies too. Would net 4 Vp/turn from that.
The Long War - Is it good or bad? It rewards you for being aggressive, which mustn´t mean melee. Shooting stuff off an Objective is actually 1 VP. The good part is it forces the opponent into awkward choices. If they stay back and go for the 8 points and deny us we can go for 3 Objectives and the 12.

Then there´s the movement game which ties into the Secondaries to make a whole strategy. What they play passive as you say and we pick Long War? Here the mixed lists starts to shine. Sure they can park upon their home objective plus one in no mans land, but now we can at least shoot stuff off their chosen objectives. This also helps with another point you made that we need tools to hinder their scoring.

Or do we go the massive mobile attack force and deep strike stuff or fly through a buffed strike unit? How do we hold our midboard if the MoP is busy enchanting Warp Talons then? It depends.

srry wrong chat, dunno how to delete the post

How do people feel about For the Dark Gods as a secondary? Is it not good because it maxes at 14 VP or is it difficult to rely on?

Iggy88 wrote:
How do people feel about For the Dark Gods as a secondary? Is it not good because it maxes at 14 VP or is it difficult to rely on?

Its a shadow operations secondary. We have quite a few to choose from. This category generally isn't a problem. In this category, there is "For the dark gods", "Raise banners" , RND. For the dark gods is basically a harder to do, but higher scoring RND. Tactically, raise banners is better because it forces your opponent to come and fight us, which is what we want because we are usually melee centric. But there are enough choices in this category that we can just choose the one best for this situation.

The problem lies in the other categories. Warpcraft is good but requires a dedicated psyker character. Having a DP is one way to solve this, but in a way it also restricts your DP tactically as well. If you choose warp ritual, you are shackling your DP for three turns in the center of the board. If you choose mental interrogation, then you need to be more cautious with how you play your DP to keep it alive all 5 turns. I find that I almost rather have a separate dedicated psyker other than master of possession if I intend to take warpcraft.

And then none of the kill secondaries are auto take because those are dependent on what your opponent runs. And finally the category battlefield supremacy is the biggest problem. We only have two choices here, and both are not easy. This category only has "Behind enemy lines" and "engage on all fronts". Its possible to design lists and to play to achieve either one, but again, we need to be aware and to design our lists accordingly. And even then, its not easy. If we can score 10 VP in this category, its very good already.

And like others have said, long war is very often a trap. If we design our list to have very tough units that take an objective and hold it. Then we don't really "trade" objectives and end up scoring a very low score in long war. A smart opponent can literally play in a certain way to deny us long war. Like, say he knows we took this. So, he overweights heavily on our lighter flank and his back line. He focus on taking, securing and holding his backfield objective and that one flank. He gives us three or even four primary objectives each turn. The primary score is actually quite close because he can still score 8VP each turn plus bonus mission primary. Meanwhile, we can capped out at 45 VP for primary. In the meantime, we score zero to maybe 1VP each turn for long war. Just the difference in this one secondary assuming our opponent managed to score something like 12 to 15 to our 3 for this could easily mean the game already.

Our secondaries are already not as good as other factions, so we absolutely need to make sure we don't score poorly in any single one of them. "The Long War" is a relic of a bygone age that was the Nachmund chapter approved time and before when trading objectives was a frequent thing and stranglehold was often "the go to" as one of the secondaries. This is no longer true in both cases. We are no longer a good trading army because our units are elite and not cheap. Our codex has changed from cheap, hard hitting units to expensive and tough units. Plus stranglehold doesn't even exist anymore.

Opinions on Grind them Down? Basically a Long War rewarding tough units and some long range shooting if they back away.

Thank you Eldenfirefly. I appreciate everyone's answers to my questions.

It seems many of the secondary objectives are easier to do with 2000 points than 1000 points, but I'm trying to figure out what ones I'd likely want to take in either.

I think the CoB secondary is going to be an auto-include for me. I can get 3 VP for killing a monster/character in melee and 2 for any regular unit, but only once per battle round. Still, it seems like I can probably get 8-12 VP for that throughout the game.

I guess I've been underestimating Raise the Banners. It seemed like I'd need 3 objectives pretty early on and held for the entire time in order to get the most out of this secondary, but I can definitely see how it would add pressure to the enemy, who we want to get close to.

Warp Ritual or Psychic Interrogation doesn't seem like a bad pick for me for 2k since I have a sorcerer but I'm not entirely sure what to do with it. In 1k I can't afford to include a sorcerer and I wouldn't want my DP or MoP to be spending 3+ turns doing little to nothing.

I really like the Battlefield Supremacy ones and have no problem designing a list around them. I'd like to fight for the board anyway. It seemed that Engage on all fronts would work well with For the dark gods since both required a presence in each table quarter. I think Behind enemy lines would be harder because I think an enemy could choose to counter that secondary by screening their deployment zone. But I think it would be difficult for an enemy to keep me out of all 4 quarters (specifically both of the ones on their side).

I think today I will try Specimens for the Spider, Engage on All Fronts, and Raise the Banner for my 1k game against my friends' Dark Eldar or Space Wolves.

I have my first game today in this edition (my game earlier this week was cancelled).

Listening to the advice I've gotten on here, this is what I'm taking:

Tzeentch DP w/ wings, prime test subject warlord, the boundless, sword, death hex
MoP - Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh
10 Cultists
5 Legionaries w/ chainswords, tome - prescience
6 Possessed (had 30 points left so added 1) w/ black rune
3 Bikers w/ chainswords
1 Spawn
3 Oblits

So taking a look at recent tournament winners and losers (https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/category/the-whole-kit-n-kaboodle/) and looking at the chaos lists that placed I have noticed something:

The other than one thing there seems to be a lot of diversity in the chaos lists in terms of units and legions used. Now most seem to have terminators and possessed and a lord discordant, but not all and I think most legions were represented. The only thing that is a common denominator seems to be Abbadon, even if armies that are not black legion. I think every list I saw had him in it. So if you are building competitive this may help as a guide. I wish the lists discussed the secondaries used.

On a side note, I don't think I have seen this level of diversity in armies winning in the 30 years I have been playing this game. As much as people complaint about Nephlim rules, I think the 6CP has really reigned in some of the worst offending armies with broken stratagems.

 xeen wrote:

Semper wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Plus Possessed don't need to worry about AoC or -1D when they're all striking with 5 attacks. A squad of minimum Possessed can reliably kill half or so a squad of 5 Plague Marines after all. That's theoretically their worst target too in terms of infantry.

Literally had that match up three times and they bounced off the PM every time. Neither unit had any psychic support as my MOP was too busy supporting other units (Oblits and termies) and his sorcerer was supporting Mortarion. I've found they are solid against basic marines, chaff, light vehicles etc but for me they have just struggled against those tougher or elite units. They do have their uses it's just they have not been very effective for me (most of my games have been against DG so far though...)

On other notes...

I need to try the baleflame tome. I like the idea of having the back field legionnaire squad having one to pass out supporting spells or having a smite in their pocket.

I'll give the VC a go as a screen and back field protector, though in terms of the former my LD has had no general problems. The only time he has died is if I got very unluck with a charge roll or I purposefully put him in harms way in friendly games for a bit of fun.

Well Plague Marines are probably the worst target for Possessed and if you didn't buff them and only had 5 I am not surprised that they bounced. I use mine as my main anchor unit, 9 with the rune. I have not fought DG with them, but so far they put the hurt on Custodies, marines, orks, and GK. Every time they fought they whooped the other unit. However, if you are playing a lot of DG then they may not be the best, especially if you are not buffing them.

5 Legionaries with the tome is great. Probably a must take troop choice.

It's a TAC list so I wasn't going to tailor it. I did win most games I just noticed the possessed had let me down a little, that's not to say they're a bad unit either.