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Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
judgedoug wrote: Yeah, we know Season 1 cost 700 million, including the rights (somewhere north of 200 million but less than Netflix's 250 million bid for its "Aragorn drama" pitch), but also absorbed much of the production costs for the entire series - with seasons 2+ expected to cost "considerably less" than season 1
I'd say a good bulk of the budget went into the dialogue:
"Give me the meat, and give it to me raw."
-Durin to Elrond
Absolutely Shakespearean. A Triumph.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
judgedoug wrote: Yeah, we know Season 1 cost 700 million, including the rights (somewhere north of 200 million but less than Netflix's 250 million bid for its "Aragorn drama" pitch), but also absorbed much of the production costs for the entire series - with seasons 2+ expected to cost "considerably less" than season 1
I'd say a good bulk of the budget went into the dialogue:
"Give me the meat, and give it to me raw."
-Durin to Elrond
Absolutely Shakespearean. A Triumph.
What’s wrong with that quote? Meat of the argument is a Britishism. Give it to me raw implies “no mucking around with fancy words”.
To translate? Just Bloody Tell Me Straight.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Seems Waaaaaaaaaaay to early for the Balrog though? Like as cool as it would be we shouldn’t see it in this. Or why would Gimli be surprised by the ruins a thousand years from now?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’ve honestly no idea. Wild guess, and with no background knowledge?
Dwarfs as they stand are capable of driving it off, deeper into the Mountain. They then extract the Mithril.
Post War with Sauron, with Mithril supplies and the Dwarfs themselves much depleted, they delve again, wake it up, and it all goes horribly wrong.
I seem to remember/I read somewhere/my head canon suggests that The Balrog is in hiding after the War of Wrath. With no Morgoth, and Sauron (temporarily) repentant (and/or playing the long game) its power is diminished and is keeping a low profile. It is, supposedly, the last of the Balrogs. When Sauron becomes The Necromancer and then actually declares "I'm baaa-aaack!" it's power increases and it takes control of the multiplying goblins to take over the city.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What’s wrong with that quote? Meat of the argument is a Britishism. Give it to me raw implies “no mucking around with fancy words”.
To translate? Just Bloody Tell Me Straight.
We understand what it means. We also recognize it's not something Elrond would ever say.
The Dwarfs are presented as Scots, yes? As someone born and brought up in Scotland, it’s absolutely something my grandparents might’ve said - and presumably, their forebears to.
It’s not an anachronistic term in the least. Cut to the chase would be, as that’s a term derived from modern cinema. The Orc Captain (Gothmog?) ordering his archers to “fire” in Return of the King absolutely was. As I’m sure you know, you loose, perhaps shoot a bow. But you only fire a gun.
If you’re not enjoying it, that sucks as your clearly passionate about LOTR. But I’m sure there’s no need for you to simply invent objections.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/07 12:35:54
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
This. Also it was quite in character for Durin as he is portrayed in the show.
Spoiler:
That being said, the latest episode was rough. As feared, none of the cast died in the aftermath of the eruption, only Miriel suffered any sort of consequence as a result, and even that was due to an unfortunate happenstance instead of the scorching cloud of smoke and debris.
They pulled another predictable "is Bronwyn dead?" moment and Isildur will of course be saved by his horse. Stakes remain unfortunately low and plausibility continues to suffer. We also learn that inconvenient-to-the-plot-husband Celeborn was sacrificed to bolster Galadriel's mischaracterization. At this point I wish they'd just stuck to original characters, which happen to be the more interesting parts of this series anyway. Looking forward to seeing what Adar and the evil priestesses are up to. Halbrand will likely fill the role of Anatar after being delivered to and healed by the elves. Durins Bane has awakened, so there might be some spectacular Khazad Dum battle scenes right around the corner.
And then there was that last shot of the episode and I actually laughed out loud for how bad it was. If you haven't seen it, please do, it's baffling. I know it was probably done for all those watchers not familiar with the franchise, but they shoud've just had Adar spell it out instead of this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/07 12:49:31
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
We're just going to go in circles here. The reason for, the nature of, the political limitations of, and the size of the expedition, is already explained in-universe, and at least makes sense, much more so than other opinions I've seen to the contrary, including your desired story change, which makes no sense. As it stands we have zero idea the volume or mass of what is stored above, at, or below, waterline, of these Numenorean transport vessels, nor the number of decks - 2, 3? and dimensions let alone the actual draft of the ship. The only things I know are that they are based on Chinese Junks, which all varied considerably in size and transport capacity, and they kinda look like very large caravels, which again, ranged drastically in size and transport capacity. If we have some numbers then we could look at any number of historical ships and make a guess to see what it would be close to. For me that matter is shelved until the inevitable behind-the-scenes books which either confirm or deny the hauling capacity of a ship designed by a professional paid for their work, versus some random opinion.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
Which isn't really relevant. There's a specific, consistent manner in which Tolkien's characters express themselves in his writing and I think neither the line, nor its delivery fit that mould.
Which isn't really relevant. There's a specific, consistent manner in which Tolkien's characters express themselves in his writing and I think neither the line, nor its delivery fit that mould.
Manchu had a great point - the dialogue doesn't feel like Tolkien because it isn't. Tolkien dialogue is musical in nature and uses very specific pre-1066 verbiage. Jackson's movies get some of this right (which became memes!), while also changing a lot for dramatic reasons (these dialogue choices were excoriated by Tolkien fans when the films came out). Rings of Power has no dialogue that is based on anything Tolkien wrote so it all just... sounds incorrect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/07 13:01:28
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
judgedoug wrote: Manchu had a great point - the dialogue doesn't feel like Tolkien because it isn't. Tolkien dialogue is musical in nature and uses very specific pre-1066 verbiage. Jackson's movies get some of this right (which became memes!), while also changing a lot for dramatic reasons (these dialogue choices were excoriated by Tolkien fans when the films came out). Rings of Power has no dialogue that is based on anything Tolkien wrote so it all just... sounds incorrect.
While I mourn the loss of Tolkien's melodics, I can somewhat understand (if not exactly like) the simplification of his prose for the purpose of TV or film. Not many screenwriters have the background for that kind of writing.
Still, there are things that I find impossible to swallow. I'm not even talking about that specific Durin line, since that one at least seems consistent with showDurin, but the elvish characters tend to turn from overtly modern to overtly Hollywood archaic on a dime in the couple episodes I've seen.
Galadriel tells Theo that Celeborn went off to war, and never came back. She assumes he is dead, and that goes some way to explaining her hardened heart and obsession with Sauron. I fully expect that at some time over the next four years we will find out he was captured, not killed.
judgedoug wrote: Manchu had a great point - the dialogue doesn't feel like Tolkien because it isn't. Tolkien dialogue is musical in nature and uses very specific pre-1066 verbiage. Jackson's movies get some of this right (which became memes!), while also changing a lot for dramatic reasons (these dialogue choices were excoriated by Tolkien fans when the films came out). Rings of Power has no dialogue that is based on anything Tolkien wrote so it all just... sounds incorrect.
While I mourn the loss of Tolkien's melodics, I can somewhat understand (if not exactly like) the simplification of his prose for the purpose of TV or film. Not many screenwriters have the background for that kind of writing.
Still, there are things that I find impossible to swallow. I'm not even talking about that specific Durin line, since that one at least seems consistent with showDurin, but the elvish characters tend to turn from overtly modern to overtly Hollywood archaic on a dime in the couple episodes I've seen.
While I'm enjoying the series, I agree. Galadriel is acting elvish, as if every sentence is a prophecy. "Evil does not sleep.It waits!", whereas the other elves seem to be English tory party members, just strolled in from Midsomer Murders
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
We're just going to go in circles here. The reason for, the nature of, the political limitations of, and the size of the expedition, is already explained in-universe, and at least makes sense, much more so than other opinions I've seen to the contrary, including your desired story change, which makes no sense. As it stands we have zero idea the volume or mass of what is stored above, at, or below, waterline, of these Numenorean transport vessels, nor the number of decks - 2, 3? and dimensions let alone the actual draft of the ship. The only things I know are that they are based on Chinese Junks, which all varied considerably in size and transport capacity, and they kinda look like very large caravels, which again, ranged drastically in size and transport capacity. If we have some numbers then we could look at any number of historical ships and make a guess to see what it would be close to. For me that matter is shelved until the inevitable behind-the-scenes books which either confirm or deny the hauling capacity of a ship designed by a professional paid for their work, versus some random opinion.
Just because in-universe reasons exist doesn't mean they are good reasons. The in-universe reason is trash and goes against all logical extrapolation regarding high medieval norms or norms we would expect given what is known about the setting. Numenor is Rome at the height of its glory and power on absolute Steroids, they would not be piddling around with such tiny numbers.
With the ships, we can see roughly how large the ships are by the people milling on the deck, and they definitely do NOT extend more than 1 full deck below the waterline because we can see the prow popping out of the water.
Even with the most generous of leeway, you can't fit more then 60 people on such a vessel if it barely has 30 people on its top deck. And that would be cramped as heck with all the cargo they'd need to bring, and does not give any room for horses. Best case, you could get maybe 20 horses per ship and you'd be displacing half the people because you need space for the horse plus its fodder and tack.
Again, we can SEE that the ships decks look cramped with 30ish people on it and that they are not extremely deep drafted. No expert is going to be able to debunk these visuals.
100 people plus horses and cargo would almost certainly capsize ships of this size. You can barely see 20 people on the deck of the left ship and its already looking pretty full, and remember that the lower holds of ships like this are going to be smaller than the upper deck in terms of surface area. Especially since we see in the sabotage scene that the lower deck has more than 6 ft of headroom since nobody is stooping and horses can fit down there. That puts the bottom of that lower deck well below the waterline with no room below it for more than a small bilge space.
Again, not an issue with the ships themselves. Its an issue with the number used. If they wanted only 3 ships, they would have needed to have bigger ships.
Honestly, ignoring this plain visual evidence is just willful ignorance.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/10/07 15:55:36
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: If you feel awkward defending the show, it probably shows that its not worth defending.
The point being I'd rather discuss actual issues with the show, none of which these happen to be.
Like it or not, those are actual issues with the show. If you don't want to discuss them, that is fine, but you can't say they're not issues. They're just not issues you want to discuss.
We're just going to go in circles here. The reason for, the nature of, the political limitations of, and the size of the expedition, is already explained in-universe, and at least makes sense, much more so than other opinions I've seen to the contrary, including your desired story change, which makes no sense. As it stands we have zero idea the volume or mass of what is stored above, at, or below, waterline, of these Numenorean transport vessels, nor the number of decks - 2, 3? and dimensions let alone the actual draft of the ship. The only things I know are that they are based on Chinese Junks, which all varied considerably in size and transport capacity, and they kinda look like very large caravels, which again, ranged drastically in size and transport capacity. If we have some numbers then we could look at any number of historical ships and make a guess to see what it would be close to. For me that matter is shelved until the inevitable behind-the-scenes books which either confirm or deny the hauling capacity of a ship designed by a professional paid for their work, versus some random opinion.
Just because in-universe reasons exist doesn't mean they are good reasons. The in-universe reason is trash and goes against all logical extrapolation regarding high medieval norms or norms we would expect given what is known about the setting. Numenor is Rome at the height of its glory and power on absolute Steroids, they would not be piddling around with such tiny numbers.
With the ships, we can see roughly how large the ships are by the people milling on the deck, and they definitely do NOT extend more than 1 full deck below the waterline because we can see the prow popping out of the water.
Even with the most generous of leeway, you can't fit more then 60 people on such a vessel if it barely has 30 people on its top deck. And that would be cramped as heck with all the cargo they'd need to bring, and does not give any room for horses. Best case, you could get maybe 20 horses per ship and you'd be displacing half the people because you need space for the horse plus its fodder and tack.
Again, we can SEE that the ships decks look cramped with 30ish people on it and that they are not extremely deep drafted. No expert is going to be able to debunk these visuals.
100 people plus horses and cargo would almost certainly capsize ships of this size. You can barely see 20 people on the deck of the left ship and its already looking pretty full, and remember that the lower holds of ships like this are going to be smaller than the upper deck in terms of surface area. Especially since we see in the sabotage scene that the lower deck has more than 6 ft of headroom since nobody is stooping and horses can fit down there. That puts the bottom of that lower deck well below the waterline with no room below it for more than a small bilge space.
Again, not an issue with the ships themselves. Its an issue with the number used. If they wanted only 3 ships, they would have needed to have bigger ships.
Honestly, ignoring this plain visual evidence is just willful ignorance.
I think even willful ignorance is a bit generous given that most people who are in favour of the bad set up regarding the ships only response seems to be "Well, I'm not bothered by it, so you shouldn't be either!". Riveting stuff.
Lord Damocles wrote: Isn't Numenor supposed to have colonies in Middle Earth anyway? Why do they even need to send an army rather than raise a force locally?
They addressed that in this episode. Apparently Pelargir is an abandoned settlement in this show.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/07 18:46:15
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Which is just....
Why did you even make a Middle Earth show if you're going to abandon so much of the written background?
It irks me so much that HBO lost the rights to make LOTR shows to Amazon, its such a farce.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/07 18:29:57
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The Dwarfs are presented as Scots, yes? As someone born and brought up in Scotland, it’s absolutely something my grandparents might’ve said - and presumably, their forebears to.
It’s not an anachronistic term in the least. Cut to the chase would be, as that’s a term derived from modern cinema. The Orc Captain (Gothmog?) ordering his archers to “fire” in Return of the King absolutely was. As I’m sure you know, you loose, perhaps shoot a bow. But you only fire a gun.
If you’re not enjoying it, that sucks as your clearly passionate about LOTR. But I’m sure there’s no need for you to simply invent objections.
I have to agree with Mad Doc Grotsnik on this one.
Lord Damocles wrote: Isn't Numenor supposed to have colonies in Middle Earth anyway? Why do they even need to send an army rather than raise a force locally?
...also, why did they build that absurd bridge across their harbour which limits the size of their ships so much..?
Numenor is supposed to be a vast martime Empire - more like Atlantis than anything else IIRC.
The scale that they are depiciting is...well it would be like the Pelanor fields battle being fought by 100 orcs and 30 humans.....
On the other hand....
I enjoyed the visuals after Mount Doom blew, I still really like Galadriel and Dwarves/Elrond is stand out - apart from the Mithril re-engergising the Elves story - thats....awful
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Why did you even make a Middle Earth show if you're going to abandon so much of the written background?
It irks me so much that HBO lost the rights to make LOTR shows to Amazon, its such a farce.
HBO would have just canceled it after they finished filming for the tax write off…
I get the joke/reference, but that was Warner Bros. Discovery’s new leaderhips call. Hisorically HBO puts out premium quality, overwhelmingly.
Thoughts on latest episode, going to put in spoilers for the sake of folks who enjoy this show:
Spoiler:
In no particular order, with heavy sarcasm :
Forgot to skip the opening credits sequence and fell asleep again. I swore I wouldn’t do that after the last episode (and the previous episodes) but here I am. Meanwhile That Other Fantasy Show’s opening sequence feels like a roller coaster, despite having heard the theme for a decade almost.
There was a sound of a baby crying, a woman wailing and a man pleading for help while people wander aimlessly. But Galadriel stood there looking for Halbrand and Ellendil, screw the NPCs!
Oh no, Bronwyns dead! Some emotional growth (good or bad) for Theo to develop into a character we’d care about or hate through the next seasons. Nope! Bronwyn, fresh from her brief but dramatic near death “Tis but a flesh wound” arrow shot survived. Growth denied! Emotional impact negated! I should’ve known when there was no body found. They got me good!
The only notable fatality, amongst a village of dead NPCs is the least liked (by the shows own admission in previous episodes) of Isildurs friends. That was a powerful moment, up there with Wade’s shocking death in Obi-wan Kenobi Part IV. Isildur died too, but I’m so numb from his friends death reveal that it hasn’t registered yet. Almost feels like it isn’t real. Poor Ellendil!
Speaking of the village, the village population seems to have the same regenerative powers as the Dothraki army from the last season of GoT. Its as big/small as it needs to be at whatever part of the story its in.
The trope sound of a sword making noise as its unsheathed has grown so powerful that it can alert a group of Orcs walking through a forest ten feet away at night with torches burning in their faces.
Dwarves are still cool. No complaints there. I’m with the senior Durin, if the Elves time is up, its unnatural to meddle. Its not like the elves don’t have a far away land damn near exclusively to them that they can migrate to and never die.
The villians remain the most compelling parts of this series for me, if only because of their mystique. But I felt the same about Snoke and the Knights of Ren…
I’m glad the Southlands text was explicitly erased and replaced with Mordor. I’d have not known what the new region, covered in darkness, populated with Orcs and evil men with a massive fiery volcano would’ve been called. Had I did know, I might’ve felt my intelligence insulted. Had Adar said it in his creepy voice as he gazes longingly at the volcano spouting dark clouds, I’d have been ok with it probably, but the text reveal was silly.
Memberries Balrog! Seems too early, and the dwarves have a loooong way to go before contact.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/08 14:23:11
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Why did you even make a Middle Earth show if you're going to abandon so much of the written background?
It irks me so much that HBO lost the rights to make LOTR shows to Amazon, its such a farce.
HBO would have just canceled it after they finished filming for the tax write off…
I get the joke/reference, but that was Warner Bros. Discovery’s new leaderhips call. Hisorically HBO puts out premium quality, overwhelmingly.
Thoughts on latest episode, going to put in spoilers for the sake of folks who enjoy this show:
Spoiler:
In no particular order, with heavy sarcasm :
Forgot to skip the opening credits sequence and fell asleep again. I swore I wouldn’t do that after the last episode (and the previous episodes) but here I am. Meanwhile That Other Fantasy Show’s opening sequence feels like a roller coaster, despite having heard the theme for a decade almost.
There was a sound of a baby crying, a woman wailing and a man pleading for help while people wander aimlessly. But Galadriel stood there looking for Halbrand and Ellendil, screw the NPCs!
Oh no, Bronwyns dead! Some emotional growth (good or bad) for Theo to develop into a character we’d care about or hate through the next seasons. Nope! Bronwyn, fresh from her brief but dramatic near death “Tis but a flesh wound” arrow shot survived. Growth denied! Emotional impact negated! I should’ve known when there was no body found. They got me good!
The only notable fatality, amongst a village of dead NPCs is the least liked (by the shows own admission in previous episodes) of Isildurs friends. That was a powerful moment, up there with Wade’s shocking death in Obi-wan Kenobi Part IV. Isildur died too, but I’m so numb from his friends death reveal that it hasn’t registered yet. Almost feels like it isn’t real. Poor Ellendil!
Speaking of the village, the village population seems to have the same regenerative powers as the Dothraki army from the last season of GoT. Its as big/small as it needs to be at whatever part of the story its in.
The trope sound of a sword making noise as its unsheathed has grown so powerful that it can alert a group of Orcs walking through a forest ten feet away at night with torches burning in their faces.
Dwarves are still cool. No complaints there. I’m with the senior Durin, if the Elves time is up, its unnatural to meddle. Its not like the elves don’t have a far away land damn near exclusively to them that they can migrate to and never die.
The villians remain the most compelling parts of this series for me, if only because of their mystique. But I felt the same about Snoke and the Knights of Ren…
I’m glad the Southlands text was explicitly erased and replaced with Mordor. I’d have not known what the new region, covered in darkness, populated with Orcs and evil men with a massive fiery volcano would’ve been called. Had I did know, I might’ve felt my intelligence insulted. Had Adar said it in his creepy voice as he gazes longingly at the volcano spouting dark clouds, I’d have been ok with it probably, but the text reveal was silly.
Memberries Balrog! Seems too early, and the dwarves have a loooong way to go before contact.
Wrote the truth
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
